 Welcome to the telecom exchange CEO roundtables both for our guests here at telecom exchange New York City and For our viewers joining us on our CR TV and JSA TV Thank you for coming Today, this is our fourth panel called taking stock today's subsea cable space We are very honored to have as our moderator miss Elaine Stafford the managing partner of DRG under C cave consulting Elaine has been involved in the development planning engineering and implementation of undersea cable system projects worldwide since the early 80s With her unique perspective at advising clients across the globe during each stage of undersea cable project lifestyle Life-cycle. She's a perfect moderator for this subsea panel Please welcome my friend Elaine. I didn't realize I was gonna follow the session on telemedicine So for those of you who are young enough to see my bumps and my bruises I Want to say you should see the other gal All right Actually, these bumps and bruises are relevant to today's discussion Last week. I was in Spain on the north coast near Bilbao Watching the cable landing of Maria one of the newest transatlantic cables owned by some of the biggest OTT's in the biggest in the in the world And this is one of the trends that we're going to talk about today is how the OTT's are changing the face of the undersea cable business I should have not been looking at the cable ship in watching where I was walking and I learned a new word face plant You can find it on Wikipedia now. I've got to put my glasses on anyhow Can you still hear me? Yeah JSA assembled an extraordinarily talented group of gentlemen CEOs and Executives today that are in the undersea cable space and I'm really really pleased to be up here Speaking with them and having them speak with each other and speak with you They each come from a different perspective in the industry which should make the conversation especially interesting I'd like to start first by introducing What I think of as the newest member of our community Chris McKee who's the general counsel and EVP of corporate development at GTT as Many of you know GTT is a thriving cloud services provider Who recently acquired hibernia, which means they bought three cables? Two of them are relatively Dare I say aged they're not old, but they're older than the newest one hibernia express which gives them a really good Capability to offer diverse services and protected services something we keep hearing coming up at all of these panels today GTT's reasons for buying hibernia as Infrastructure to their services We'll provide us a very unique perspective. I think today as we have our discussion Next we have Eduardo Falzoni CEO of globe net Who offers services largely built on globe nets fast undersea Atlantic backbone? Which is also about 15 years old Thus for globe net The undersea cable business is the underpinning of your international services, right? Largely in the Latin America region Then we have Mike Cunningham Who's been a cornerstone of several undersea initiatives the most recent of which include Ireland, France? Where he serves as chairman and now also across Lake Fiber a new cable plan from Canada to the US where Mike is CEO? Mike's in the business of launching new businesses built on niche undersea cable opportunities Last but not least is my old friend Matt Ma executive of network engineering at Tata communications the Indian incumbent operator Used to be known as VSNL who bought the Tata global network or what was then the Tyco global network? From Tycom several years ago as a complement to their already existing international backbone TGN has served Tata well as an enabler to their growing wholesale market as well as expanding its global service opportunities So you can see we have somebody from each of the different elements of the business and That's I think a little bit of what we'll be talking about today As well as what's changing in the market one of the questions is is the cable the business? Or is the cable the infrastructure supporting the business? So today we're going to talk about new trends in the markets OTT involvement as I said Drivers of today's resurgence in new cable builds The impact of data centers diversity and latency on the new build builds The evolution of project financing as these cables are seen more and more like infrastructure How capacity pricing on these cables may evolve as cables fill up But the ability of technology improvements to expand the capacity is not keeping up in quite at quite the same pace How will older cables those built in the boom around 2000? Who are soon reaching their contractual lifetimes continue to serve the international market as many think they'll live beyond? 25 years and serve a useful purpose We could talk for hours about each of these items, but we just have I guess 40 minutes So I'm here to ask some good questions there to provide the answers And so let's start and I think I'd like to start with our newest member Chris if I can Tell us about your decision as GTT to buy hibernia and what motivated that and how it's changing your business Please sure so you know first thing to understand about GTT is that we've grown primarily through acquisition I joined in 2008. We were 60 million dollars in revenue So over the course of doing you know a number of of M&A transactions and growing through going through growing through that We're now sort of closing in on about a billion dollars in revenue and we hope to get there by the end of this year So with every single acquisition we do and specifically you know with hibernia We look at it your initial question was you know is the cable the business or is the cable and means to to serve the business? For our for us the customers are the business, right? There's a target customer that we want to serve which is the largest multinational enterprises in the world now included in the largest multinational enterprises in the world are All of the large OTT's and of course the you know the financial vertical that we that we do focus in and so you know When we looked at hibernia, we said here is an assets serving a group of customers That's right in our sweet spot. We certainly you know we provide data connectivity to all of those customers all throughout the world We have one of the five largest internet backbones in the world But the hibernia express under C under C system, which was the fastest Latency path between London and New York was of particular interest particularly in the financial community because of the latency characteristics But then as you said with the with the mega OTT's and how they are Driving so much of the demand so what we saw was just sort of another hook and another way to Provide more business have more wallet share of the customers that we covet and target And so for every single every single customer that hibernia brought to us was already a customer of GTT But but through at you know adding the sub the submarine cable assets We were obviously able to expand and deepen our relationship with those customers At a wardrobe you want to talk about it from a different perspective as you build the cable into a business Maybe comment on what you needed to do to build it more broadly into a business. Yes I still think that infrastructure is still a business. Of course the Services you mount on your different structure provide more businesses and to reach your customers. That's absolutely true But I still a steel rule for infrastructure to be a business Of course, I'm here have a complaint. Why do you talk about all cables? They're not as old as I am Does that make it better? Yes, good. Good. So For those so fast who have been long enough in this industry we've seen These old cables being deployed in year 2000 They're still running and they'll still have mostly 10 years off of lifespan That can be increased as well You can get more lifetime out of a cable system. He has not had too many cuts, of course The technology is bringing more capacity to the same fiber. So Infrastructure is still there Mostly it is amortized. So it's a good competitive advantage. I'm gonna talk about competition Afterwards, it's a good competitive advantage to position the old cable systems in a good Position to compete with the new cable systems Because as I said the infrastructure still is a business It's not the same business that it was 15 years ago, but still it is mainly because of the OTT's and the major card is demanding more and more capacity. It's not any more capacity It's spectrum or even fiber. So From our perspective, there's still business in infrastructure I think that's a good lead in for you, isn't it Mike? Yeah, I mean I Definitely agree with that in terms of and I hope I agree with it because we're very focused on Primarily single cables and single routes and we're very asset focused So our goal is really when serving the wholesale market to become a segment within someone else's network to keep ourselves very resource-light focused on simply Generating our acceptable rate of return on that specific investment We're not looking to to really expand and become all things to all people and so when when we look at Deploying capital into those specific opportunities. It's very much focused on that cable and and not really Anything beyond it the opportunities that exist to a large extent are opportunities for our customers to exploit as as opposed to us Matt, I want to give you a term, but I'd like to change the subject if I can I know all of you could talk about all of this stuff But I started off talking about OTT's and as a lot of us look at the market now, especially with new cables We see the demands of Microsoft Facebook Google soon Amazon others really driving not only the new builds for cables, but a lot of the capacity demand as well and We see that as it relates to new cables They're wanting to build so that they can own their own fiber pairs because there aren't a lot of fiber pairs left for sale on the major routes You own TGN you own a global network around the around the world that touches. I don't know how many countries How is your business changed both from the wholesale perspective and from how you look at the evolution of your network With the big influence of the OTT's lately The changes are actually yeah, it's definitely more default. So I'll just so for Tata. We're a whole full service Telecom provider so we have Network and activities as a service from layer zero to layer three. We also have Voice services. We have also have UC services. The reason I say that is this is our business model So from a cable point of view cable is a business, but also is a platform for the upper layers When when OTT coming It definitely pose a challenge because they are extremely savvy on negotiating prices So they always wanted to cost plus model for everything, right? So That's a challenge whenever they come in they come in and they usually Significantly reduce the market price causing a pricing erosion But for us This this is this is opportunity as well in two ways one is They don't build everywhere, right? If you look at what they're doing today They're they're mostly building in the more common where the telecom policies are more open like a transatlantic or Trans-Pacific or maybe in some of the inter-Asia countries, but They do have challenges when it comes to less open countries golf countries Middle East Africa India those countries and this is our strength for telecommunications. So They have the capital so we take advantage of it what they have and they It's it's a business relationship, but also it's a partnership relationship because Their capital is a funding our build of some of the networks as well. So for us This is what this is an important aspect of of that and particularly in some of the cable built when they build the cables they also need Diversities as well, right? I mean even if they build cable like in Maria or in some of the other initiatives Chances are they need at least a three rounds in those regions whenever the region they go they identified Those are the regions that they expected to have high growth So and then they also looking for diversity when you come to diversity We have also some of the assets in those regions So that also gives us an opportunity to work with them to leverage what they're building leverage you what we have to have a more More diverse network in the end in our hands to serve enterprise needs so The challenge is definitely there they really force us to look at our costs very very hard But the opportunity of the fact that they have so much capital in their hands also helps in my mind at least us to enhance our network and then provide opportunities to serve Segments outside of the OTT players large enterprises and things like that Eduardo can we circle back to you and maybe you can comment on that given some of the new builds in your backyard? Yes Yes, it's absolutely true what Matt said The OTT's work as an enabler, I would say of the deployment of new cables At the same time they carry so much traffic and I would say 70 80% of the traffic that moves around the world It's it's really my OTT's so the risk is that they suck so much Traffic that there's little left for the rest of the of the Congress, right? But that will change because it's it's like we need some more time until the rest of the the second tier of OTT's or medium companies or large-size Enterprises pick up in the need of their capacity and the out the cloud players as well So that will change and they will be demand as well for the rest of the of our customers our whole set customers to cover the rest of the capacity that it's Left out of the OTT work We've seen in in in the Americas region north south Routes we've seen all of the OTT's playing this this game There are two cable systems ready for serve are coming up ready for service in the next three four months the OTT's are present in in One of them or two and it's another cable next year with the presence of the other two OTT's So they have played the role of the enablers of new infrastructure being deployed in the in the region At the same time as as Matt said There's a need for diversity Most of these cables are linear cables. They just go from one point to the other point and mainly covering the major cities Side common That there are many cities that we've left unattended or under serve at the same time. That's where the Legacy cables better terminology not the old cables Play a role also and also play a role in the diversity because as I said these linear cables Provide one route, but the OTT's Require the least three routes into the same city to to be safe about the other services Do you want to comment at all about diversity? Yeah, I mean I think you know I mean and the other point I wanted to pick up by the dead water set is sort of the second group of OTT's Right, I mean so you know what we get you know as a large IP transit provider What we see is you know our largest IP transit customers are the next you know big OTT's right I mean there they're somewhere down the path to eventually needing their own data centers and the own their own capacity demands I mean it's a fantastic trend for everybody on this panel and everybody in the room who is Trying to sort of address the need not just of the of the four OTT's You know who who drives you know the majority of the traffic we've seen so far But the next five to ten years of it. It's you know, it's astounding I mean carriers You know which was sort of sub if we know we were up here ten years ago We're talking all about carrier demand for for subsistable space. That's a relatively small percentage I mean we're a big user we're actually this week became a large customer of globe net We purchased Perseus which you know which which is a sort of significant customer now But carriers, you know in general or a small piece of it What we're really seeing is you know the the OTT's that exist now and the ones are coming in to me You know the never never ending demand for it and that also creates as you said You know they need two or three paths of diversity to whatever data center They're filling a lot of this is data center driven demand So you know that all leads to bills that haven't you know even been been put on the planning stages yet You know and in the the you know and some of the routes probably you know like like the transatlantic Then there's probably a decent amount of builds either Completed or underway to address it, but you know in general, you know these mesh networks I mean they want three to six options to sort of appropriately operate and when you look around the world and you Look at where these OTT's need to be where the users are where the data centers are gonna be We're still in early innings and sort of deployment of subsea cables Okay, so I want to switch back to Matt I know several of you touch the markets in Asia, but most of you are centered elsewhere, but Matt you have a lot of business I think in Asia Since we're on OTT's Do you care to speculate? We didn't discuss this ahead of time. So forgive me for putting you on the spot When do you think some of the Chinese OTT's will come out from behind? PCCW and China telecom and China mobile and do the same kinds of things that Facebook and Google and Microsoft are doing in our world So We so we definitely deal with some of the Chinese OTT's like Alibaba, Baidu or Tencent Today Clearly there there I would say a few years behind where Google or Facebook's of the world Today they are mostly buying 10 G's or 100 G's capacity And their the architectures are relatively Simple and and They deal a lot with The CTG CU CMI of the world sorry China telecom China Unicom and China mobile of the world. So they're they're they're they're still kind of in the infancy of Sitting in China who has a 1.3 billion population Internet is very popular Lot of popular apps or we chat is one of them, you know virtual wallets and all that stuff They're sitting on a gold mine. They want to not only connecting the Chinese out to the international world They also want to move some of their apps to the to the new world So the needs is definitely there you see their growth is amazing from where they were You know looking for 10 G's or less just a couple of years earlier now to Talking about multiple hundred G's few not a lot of hundred G's but few hundred G's You know some of the popular route. So the growth is tremendous, but they're in the relatively kind of very early stage and that they haven't really used to deal with the International carriers or internet. So they haven't really get to the stage of buying internationally and then so as far as Building internationally that I think is probably another step further down the road. So they're relatively five years The with the rate they're going I wouldn't be surprised the five years So maybe slightly less than that The CT CMI and the CU of the world already participates some of the consortium cables Not only in traesia, but in some of the other parts of the world. Yeah, right So and and maybe initially they will behind be behind them, but I am not surprised given the kind of Capital they have I wouldn't be surprised that they will come out with the forefront of the four members of the original builders the original investors Less than five years from now interesting I'd like to throw a question out on the table for all of you latency and high frequency trader trading and That business and I know some of you have unique experience with that. Anybody care to start the conversation And I'll start just because you know express is obviously one of the features of it Is is the fastest route between London and New York? And so you know as we look across sort of the spectrum of customers we have I think all customers care about latency Some customers depend on latency and some customers latency is the only thing and that's the high frequency trader so it's a you know, it's a relatively small group that will only buy the fastest and You know we can and there's a premium, you know associated with that You know, it's a it's a relatively small group of people who base their business plans on that But you know, I would say where where they need that connectivity is expanding I mean, obviously we participate in the the New York to London piece But what you're seeing is sort of a globalization of you know of that demand. I mean particularly on the foreign exchange traders So, you know, I think one of the underserved markets Beyond the OTT's is is you know faster routes connecting trading centers Where where the high frequency traders will pay a premium for faster routes to the trading centers of the world so a lot of us are under the impression that the premiums as you call them which are Juicy premiums For the high frequency traders and really facilitated the financing of hibernate express which preceded your tenure with them, right? And for a long time, I've kind of wondered is this really going to spread across the globe most things that make people money Do spread across the globe, right? So you see discussion about the lowest latency path from this point in Asia to the US from this point in South America to the US Do you think that? This will spawn new tables in and of itself or just be an add-on to a reason for another diverse route Driven by a lot of other things. Yeah, so I mean, you know express specifically I mean remember there still was an OTT anchor that you know at the center of it So I think you know what we've talked about before is the importance of OTT's and the massive amount of Fiber pairs that they'll speak for you know before before you know constructions even even green-lighted that that will still be a big piece Where I think the HFTs play if you can develop a faster route to a trading center There's additional highly accretive economics that you can add to your to your business planning and you know There's capacity demands everywhere and you can make that work But there's an additional business plan and it's probably worth the extra investment if you can get faster to a place that the traders Want to be any of you care to comment on that? Yeah, I just add my two cents here the The latency aspect in terms of being the lowest latency is definitely an additional profit center But at least from my perspective even on routes where we have a latency advantage. It's never enough to justify Building the cable on its own you we have to have the other economics of it being a desirable route in order to do that and Maybe the latency gets you over the finish line or just makes it more profitable But in and of itself it it's never in my experience being a large enough market from a dollar perspective To justify that capex so Mike you've had to work at financing a number of new projects and When we as DRG look at new projects that people ask us to help develop business plans for now We've kind of concluded that you have to sell a number of the fiber paris on a cable to anchor tenants to get Through the point where you're going to find that business plan for the cable to be Attractive enough to get financing do you care to comment on that and how you see that in today's world The OTTs are the anchors and some of the newer cables. I think it depends on the route for your long-haul trans oceanic routes I think that's absolutely the case when you have cables that are several hundred million dollars to have an OTT that is a Internal use customer, so they're not competing with you in the market But they take off a large amount of that capex and to the extent that you can have a lot more OTTs or multiple OTTs taking a high percentage of the capex of that project That that definitely makes the economics a lot easier when you're selling the remainder of the capacity on that cable, but there are other instances where as an example We've financed a cable that had no OTT involvement and even no Spectrum or fiber pair sales our model in in one specific example was purely long-term leases so I think for You can't wholly classify it as needing OTTs as either a driver or even having to sell fiber pairs or spectrum in order to justify that investment Anybody else care comment? Yeah. I want to make a comment on the low latency We carry the lowest latency network between North and South America and actually between New York and Sao Paulo and Have to confirm both Opinions of Chris and Mike that you cannot justify the lane of a new cable with the low frequency Trade in business. It's a niche. It's a small business. There's no way you can justify the lane of a cable If you have it, it's an advantage. Yes, because there's a premium that is being paid for that for that route But in no way can justify a new cable also there are Connecting cities that have that have these These exchanges the not many changes city with the changes in the world, right? New York London is probably the largest route for this type of high frequency trading But for instance, Sao Paulo We carry the traffic between Sao Paulo and Bovespa and New York exchange and It's it's tiny orders of magnitude of what the London, New York route is But you want to drop something for for the next conversations low latency is not only important high frequency It's the ones who pay the most premium for for that route, but the gaming industry is also very keen on the latency as well. Just drop it for Next expand it maybe Anybody want to pick up on that? Yeah, I agree. I mean, I think all customers care about latency There's there's a small segment that you know pays a super premium for you know one nanosecond But you know, I think in cable design and cable performance. I mean latency is important I mean, you know it is as you know Gaming depends on on a little bit of lag on less lag and and you know a lot of the OTTs are you know These are highly Dense, you know sort of you know video cash type type products so latency, you know We have more and more customer contract contracts that deal with latency more than price the latency Sla's are are probably debated and talked about more than the price points It's interesting I'd like to go to price now a little bit and nobody's going to quote numbers But Matt you talked a little bit about price before with the pressures from the OTTs and cost plus and the like I'm wondering what you think about the pricing trends moving forward as I think somebody Said the capacity of a fiber pair is not growing quite at the rate because of technology evolution That it used to when systems were put in with two and a half gigabits in the Legacy timeframe They are now carrying hundred gigabit channels or more I don't think anybody thinks that those systems that are going in now with hundred gigabit or more channels are gonna Multiply by that factor of whatever it was 40 So I'm wondering what you think about whether pricing of capacity in the market which Eroded maybe on the order of 20 odd percent or 20 percent over the past many years was actually enabled Not only because the networks were depreciated But also because the cost of upgrading the networks was coming down relatively rapidly because of the technology and the underlying capacity expansion capability of the networks With that changing that under if that if that really helped fuel the capability of operators to reduce their capacity prices What's going to happen to capacity prices moving forward? Well, we I guess we can draw some conclusions or try to predict the future based on the past performance They're good things and they're bad things right if you look at what happened for example in the Transatlantic market They would so before the hundred G it was 10 G was the most popular product from a connectivity point of view and The pricing erosion back then was eroding probably 20 20 percent or 20 plus percent here over a year and to the point that That it's just it's only barely supported by the CapEx you're putting for upgrade those 10 G's And then for those a couple of years actually pricing Temporarily stable with a little bit. I mean, it's not that it didn't decline, but it declined much much slower comparing to the previous years and then 100 G coming and the technology coming and it provided much better costs unit cost upgrade therefore the Pricing decline resumed. So today we're in the middle of probably the 100 G deployment where you still have a Reasonable pricing unit cost reduction Benefit year over year from just the technology evolution But so you still see a Like Elaine said probably a 20 percent or so pricing erosion in the marketplace now hopefully as as the as the pricing Getting you know, approaching to the the upgrade cost Bottom line hopefully people will behave rationally. So that's a hope that there will become a The pricing erosion will slow down now There's two big uncertainties, right? One is can we all behave rationally? There they're still nevertheless, you know a lot of Competitors and people build it invest for different reasons and therefore the sale their access capacity for different reasons So can we behave rationally? That's the one question Hopefully with the past history, hopefully we will the second thing is also Elaine alluded to is the technology Technology we are probably halfway to the Shannon limit right so How how close do you can we be to the Shannon limit? 80 percent close I don't think that's something that 80% is something that that we can see right now, but maybe in a few years we will so that just means that the we the technology benefit of The over your cost reduction Also is going to slow down. So these factors is gonna, you know pose us a great question of can we behave rationally? Can we really, you know? Based on what is out there from technology? So hopefully market will Stabilize somewhat in the next maybe three years three to five years Those of you in the Atlantic where you've got new competition coming in How do you see market behavior? There's there's some interesting dynamics going on, right? I mean you have New new competition new new builds coming in but supported by demand But as you refer to them as we're referring legacy cables now, I mean we operate two legacy cables I mean we all know you know in this room There's a there's a certain amount of fixed costs that aren't being being impacted to you know Run your ships and do the upkeep of those cables There there are no sort of big pricing declines there And so I think you know that you know as we talked about the cables don't have that much electronics in them They have electronic life well beyond when they'd be retired they'd be retired because The fixed cost of running those cables at some point, you know with the pricing that the pricing erosion just doesn't make any sense What happens in Atlantic when some of those legacy cables get retired now you have you know, you know in a Scenario where we've had in the last couple years. We've had some cables added some more coming now if you start to see some of those cables retired as you know, it's all in a all in a scenario where you know More and more bit demand exists more more raw bit demand exists. I'm sure you know Would you see pricing go up? Would you see the decline? You know the decline me out? I'm not sure But I think you know as pricing erodes the the you'll the natural impact in the Atlantic is you'll see some of those legacy cables retired Eduardo Yes I think that also that there should be a point in which the price erosion should stop of course Competition coming in the next year or two will drive prices down for a little while But in the long term, there's no way that the the current rate of price erosion can keep up Because the technology at much was explained is it's not going to go that far as 20 30 percent per year the only thing that We can hope that the revenue of at least stabilizes our growth a little bit probably we will end up like the Consumer the the mobile plans that we have today in which we are given the same We pay the same amount of money every year. We get more gigabits Per month the price per gigabit or per megabit decreases But we end up in the same amount of money at the end of the month Probably will reach that point in the next three five years in which we hope that we can keep the revenue growing But for that we need to increase the capacity that the cables will be able to deliver So Mike as you finance your projects You need to look at the demand and the growth rates compared to the price declines that you forecast How do you see all this? Yeah, I believe that for all intents and purposes the projects that are in development today or will Be put into service in the near term are going to be subject to price deflation in almost all large markets for for most of their life and I think the only thing that can potentially Mitigate that to some extent is the fact that there's a lot more theoretical capacity in the market And is actually being sold in the market and that's driven by the OTT's the OTT's who are acquiring Fiber pairs today aren't putting that capacity into the market. So let's say they own 50% of a new cable that has a 100 terabits capacity. There'll be 50 Terabits half of that that sit dark until 20 years when the OTT's actually begin to to grow into that capacity I also think that Especially in the Atlantic market right now the structure of those cables are there more wholesale cables it's it's going to lead to price deflation until they're out of service which On and on you can show that you can continue to make the economic case not to take them out of service And I also think that the introduction of C plus L band really helps increase the the potential capacity of new cables to a point where you're doubling on a per fiber pair basis the amount of Capacity you can get through that cable. So I still see a lot of very large thematic Reasons why price deflation is going to continue for For the purposes of considering the return on a current investment So do any of you with legacy networks either in part or in whole? Care to comment on future-proofing your Infrastructure I mean I think it's it's that as I said, you know, it's you're constantly doing the economics of it We know you don't think of it as a Price per bit necessarily you think about what is this cable system returning in terms of revenue and profit, right? You know, I actually like the analogy to the to the phones It's like, you know, I'm getting a hundred and ten dollars from my phone subscriber I'm getting a hundred and ten dollars from them, right? You know technology improvements and you know sort of smooth smoother operations You know, we have we have three cables and we look at each one And what are they returning in terms of revenue and profit and you'll sort of continue to spin the dials on Do you have to do technology improvements to put more bits over the wires? Do you have what do you have to do on pricing and you know and and maybe not but you know, you know It doesn't actually make economic sense to retire one of the three cables and you know have a you know Have push your demand over the other two I'd say all are in play in the Atlantic Which is a more mature market Then then some of the others that we're looking at there's there's still I think you know I want to point out that you know throughout the world that we see are largely underserved markets You know even for the OTT's and they just where where they're where they're big end users are is largely still underserved I would say we we're doing a pretty good job as a as Well speaking for maybe just for title, but I think it's applicable for others as well. We have a fairly large Network we have a spectrum of networks and but a lot of asset that was built in 2001 2002 And I think we've been working with some of the industrial leaders The SLT suppliers and making sure that the product they roll out Is equally applicable? to to to the legacy networks and I can There are a lot of things you you work with them to make sure that it's a technology issue. It's also The pricing issue We work with them very very closely so So so that to make sure the legacy The cables can be used To support and so far I think I would say that It's really not There's nothing that is unique to the newer cables That meaning that only There's something that only the new cables can support the legacy cables cannot support And the way the technology is evolving instead of jumping from for example One of the old thing in old days The difference between the old cable and the new cable is the new cables can support say Tengi the old cables can only support turn half G. That's a significant differentiator But today if you look at how the technology is rolled out The the the band with the line side of the bandwidth is much more liquid in other words, it's no longer is Can the new cable roll out 400 G's or one terabit channel? Data rate anymore. That's not that that's not a question anymore. The question becomes okay If the line rate can be increased at 50 gighertz increment Right, so what is the maximum you can put out to get the most efficient? So from a technology point of view the legacy cables are no longer put it's not at least in a disadvantage of Something the newer cables can't do the the legacy cables cannot do anymore And I think it's also safe to say that we do know of at least one major cable that formally Decided based on some evidence that their cable was going to last longer than the 25-year design life as well So that may be the first of a trend We're going to run out of time soon. So I wanted to open it up for questions from the audience back there I Can jump in you know, so for the specific route that we that we operate London to New York You know not not a threat at this time. I mean, I mean, you know, I think where you see Wireless and RF, you know, obviously making a difference is in the in the HFT market in the low latency market and specifically over Land routes, you know, I think, you know, if you look at the dynamics and what happened in Chicago to New York with You know a wire line route then being made faster via RF Tough to do across the Atlantic tough to do across the Pacific And so, you know, I don't think it's a threat to what we do now I think but I think and I don't actually think that impacts too much of what's going on with OTT demand Because I mean what wireless and satellites allow you to do is to is to speed things up to lower the latency Which are very very severely limited what you can do capacity-wise the one thing that these OTTs want is massive amounts of capacity So I think, you know, that's that's another limitation that that makes the you know, if you're if you're basing your business on on HFTs and low latency between two cities I think that wireless has to be considered a threat, but I'm not sure it is on the OTT business side Mike is dying to say something Yeah, I mean historically it's never been able to supplant fiber at the same time. There there is a ton of capital and many different companies with very credible backers putting money into the satellite space and Maybe not on some of your your core large primary transatlantic routes, but on some of those other periphery routes or More rural or remote areas I I'm definitely listening and Eager to find out where Where the market goes just because it is potentially a competitive threat in some instances, but We'll we'll have to see whether that's proven out or not At work or are you grabbing the mic? No, no not just to say that. Yeah, we agree. It's not a threat and Regarding the demands of not only OTT, but the rest of the players is based basically on Capacity and latency and so they cannot provide both in a competitive way compared with the fiber Okay, I've been told we're out of time so I want to thank you all Chris Eduardo Mike