 for your support and so I think that is all the intros and like I said we'll probably have some folks hopping in over the course of the hour we're together but I will go ahead and turn it over to our presenters so Daniel you are up first. So hi everyone we basically at the knee and I have kind of like 15-20 minutes to kind of go through quick laser bullet some ideas what I'm gonna do is I'm gonna kind of basically if you're on the screen I am gonna share just one kick center campaign that I recently worked on last year and for those who aren't on a screen I will just talk you through it so I'm gonna just share and I'm gonna do this okay oh that's Anthony hi Anthony I was trying to figure out what was happening there we go as everyone looking on a page called called up a new artwork for Kansas City okay I'm seeing people now their heads great so like I said I work sort of in the arts category at Kickstarter that is primarily working in art and photography and a lot of projects we get in those range anywhere from fundraising for an exhibition to doing a photo book to a mural a social practice based project basically anything and we tend to say projects that end up being the most successful are things that feel that they centered around a project itself so a specific thing you're trying to do that usually has a timeline ie it's going to happen at certain point and you probably have a space for it basically with Kickstarter anyone can really launch a project it's a public platform but the ones that end up telling the most successful stories are those that feel the most compelling and those that usually feel the most urgent so with Ebony's project she is a Jamaica in Kansas or excuse me I think Nashville based artist she works in the intersection of kind of drawing and installation and sculpture she was invited to do a participatory project in Kansas City they gave her a budget as most artists have but the budget wasn't enough as most artists face and she wanted to do a project that actually not only was for the duration of open spaces which was a six month exhibition that happened all across the city of Kansas City but she also wanted to raise funds so that she could install benches permanently and then give additional funds back to the actual parks department where her installation was to be able to maintain the site if they so desired so her project was basically reclaiming one of America's first desegregated public pools there are actually two pools in Swilt Park one is open one is not and she chose to revitalize the one that was not so already right we have a project that is telling a really compelling story that feels like it's uplifting a history and a narrative that that matters and as you can see she's got pictures and hear that what it was before and what it was after there's a little bit about her some of her past work but I really encourage people to if you're thinking about doing a crowdfunding campaign think about it and basically two very large steps one step which is like what do I actually need to do to get it on the site that's usually a project text it's usually images and then it's also the rewards then there's usually an or two minutes it does not have to be a huge thing but thinking through those actual parts is really important and if you really honestly just go to Kickstarter and you find projects we love that's usually a project that we have worked on or that we're excited about and I highly encourage people to look through these lists and see what's actually funding and what's working so there's a current example that's live right now with the artist Jackie Summel she's taking one of her projects on the road in a truck and just really if you want to look through and see how are they writing the text what prices are they doing for their rewards what rewards are working well and selling out and then also what rewards are not working this is a great way for you to kind of get a refresher by just going on the site and seeing what's live and using that as kind of a an example in a template most of them that I work on right I always recommend having so who are you what we were contribution support which is basically what's your budget why are you using Kickstarter in the first place why are you crowdfunding in the first place these are all great kind of tools to essentially build trust and all the time I'm thinking about how can this campaign build trust and accountability not only with the people that basically already know you and are signed up but are people who probably are brand new to you and have no idea who you are it's a great way to essentially reintroduce something that you're doing or introduce something that's brand new and invite people into your community so it's kind of like one section right building the actual project itself the other half that I think everyone sort of kind of highlighted when they introduced themselves as like well how do I actually get the back people I've got a ton of it's a it's a laundry list some of them I pulled out for you and I'm going to actually stop sharing right now and kind of just walk through these so you can write them down and think through them these are kind of like very great ways on the ground level to think through very beginning like who is am I actually going to do outreach for so the first step I always say for people is really start with sort of a stakeholder map it's kind of borrowing sort of from public policy language but a stakeholder map is really it can be as simple as a drawing or it can be a list of every single person that's connected to the actual project itself right so if you're crowdfunding for say Ebony's project that is a site specific installation for a duration of time and a city so for a city who does she know who is tied to the history of the space who does she know that is maybe a swimmer maybe someone who has done a memorial before someone who has done a site that revitalizes if she's working with florists which is part of her installation what people does she know in the city that own a flower shop can she work with them these are great ways to just start thinking about person about essentially really building a tree that you're then going to rely on for the duration of the campaign the second step with those is usually thinking through them and of course it could just be a friend on your stakeholder map that they're part of the project itself but it's good to think through the next step of what are they good at and identifying what they're good at is usually a great way to then hone your ask-in because what I don't want people doing is emailing their friends and saying hey I'm doing a project it's not really help and then I think we lost you for a second and hey I'm going to do a Kickstarter oh am I here okay now yes we got you got it right so so when you're asking someone to be part of the Kickstarter project it's good to already think in advance what you think their strength is and what they can bring to the table so that can range from as easy as say you know a collector or benefactor you can approach them before the campaign is live tell them about the project and say I think this $500 reward that is a limited edition a print of mine you would love because you've always wanted one of my works and this is a great time to support the project it could also on the total end of the spectrum be a person who doesn't have any financial means to help the project you can also think through okay does that person have a newsletter does that person have space to throw a party for social media channels and which one is the best which one are they most active on maybe not even necessarily which one has the most followers but which social media channel they using that they feel really active and part of and then right taking that stakeholder map doing that a little bit analysis and then approaching those people before the campaigns even launched essentially builds them in on like they're in on a secret really they're in on something that's going to be exciting and you want them to play a part because of course most of the people who are going to support you day one they're going to be your friends they're going to be your family members they want to help you so giving them the tools and also giving them a little bit of a direction as to where you think they would be best suited to help is usually the best some other things that I have actually been personally doing for my own work two things one do a little research on how to download recent gmail contacts this is actually relatively simple but getting kind of an excel sheet going of just emails is really really important especially if you don't have a newsletter already if you're going to crowdfund newsletters are definitely one of the best tools because it's a great way to shout out to the people who really love you the most to give them benchmarks essentially sending a newsletter to these people of I'm going to launch this tomorrow I want you to be part of it all the way to we have two days left we already had our goal but there's a few rewards left and I'd love for everyone to be part of it so thinking through Gmail thinking through your inbox working through who have I like recently shot an email to you and again pretty much doing the same thing as you did to a stakeholder Matt thinking through oh they would get that $25 reward they would love the $5 keep notified they would love the $1,000 artwork great ways to feel it'll make it feel a little bit more personal for them the second tip that I have really loved and seen work very well recently is going through your personal phone and looking at the past 100 people you've texted this is shockingly super super effective if you've got like an iPhone a Kickstarter campaign will auto load it will be really pretty and it will drag the main image that you've picked onto the phone screen so it the Kickstarter campaigns almost look as if there are press piece on people's phones so if you just honestly it's like take 30 minutes to work through your phone and go oh that person would give $5 that person would totally give 10 that person probably won't give but they will definitely include it in their newsletter and honestly just shoot them a text it makes kind of the work that you're essentially distributing to other people feel really really fast because again thinking through the people who are going to support you are people that are probably the most close to you and they want to help you so making that bar of work very easy and also very simple for them and streamlined is a great way for them to basically click the link grab a reward for $10 post it on Instagram and say hey done so excited great that took 30 seconds it's super efficient I love it so to kind of wrap up basically right to think about crowdfunding campaigns you do have two sort of buckets of work that you need to work through one of them is thinking through okay what are the actual raw materials that I need to do on a Kickstarter campaign the text the rewards the images the video and looking through past examples of seeing what's working what's not one on the site makes a lot of sense what people's videos are are their texts bilingual do their videos have closed captioning these are all things to just kind of pay attention to and go okay this would resonate well for my project and I know my community would would love it if I had tons of past images or really accessible reports that's one bucket the second bucket is again thinking through this kind of outreach plan starting with that stakeholder map and thinking okay who are the people closest to me that are part of this project what are their best skills how can I ask that and then from there build an outreach plan that includes a newsletter it might include personal emails it might be texting people but it's always to think a little bit more thoughtfully about sharing it because again you don't want us you don't want to be in a space where you're just blindly sending it out to the world you want to give a little bit direction to people to make them feel like you've thought about them and that you also really do want them to be part of the project I think that's really it that was like a lot of information but of course we're here like you know both of us are here and the larger my project is here if you've got both Anthony and I are here if you've got questions afterwards so thank you and yay for that I think I'm gonna still that download from the Gmail email contacts which I've never done before but super super easy to do so thank you for that and then we'll go ahead and let me we will turn it over to you now hey hi again everybody I am also getting a message about unstable internet on this end the weather probably is I know somehow when it rains like it rains on the internet it's weird but I'm stable I can't wave at me if I freeze or something but hi again everyone again my name is F&A partnerships manager here at IUB and I like visuals I grabbed a few slides for tonight I'm just gonna try to share my screen here right so everybody seeing a slide with like some happy people in yellow t-shirts so IUB of her folks on the line who might not be familiar with us stands for in our backyards we're a 501c3 non-profit that helps residents to fundraise for positive change in their communities in our backyards as our like positive reversal of the infamous NIMBY or not in my backyard so we're a platform for people who are funding projects that make them and their neighbors say yes this is something positive that we want to create together in our collective backyards so our work here at IUB is really around lifting up resident leadership which can take lots of different forms but it's really based in a deep belief of the idea that residents know best with their communities need and our best position to be the stewards of long-term change in our communities so just a little bit more context about us we work nationally I'm talking to you from our Brooklyn office we also have offices in Cleveland Memphis Detroit and Pittsburgh and our platform is really tailored for grassroots and non-profit projects that have an aspect of public benefit to them some of those of course can include arts projects but also a wide range of other projects and we provide one-on-one coaching to everybody who fundraisers with us and have designed the IOB platform in a variety of ways to be just like a support for projects led by by grassroots civic leaders through things like offering tax deductions for every IOB campaign fiscal sponsorship as needed to make those tax deductions possible we have a feature where you can add a button to your page to seek volunteers as well as donors we have what is in crowdfunding speak sometimes called a flexible finish policy where you can always keep what you raise because particularly with volunteer-led projects like things change a lot so we like to allow for that and we also work with a variety of funding partners around the country to offer double your dollar match funding opportunities for specific kinds of projects so it's my wheelhouse at IOB is directing those programs so that's just a little bit about us and you guys had sent along this great list of questions for tonight so I just grabbed some some content I can share related to those questions but you had also suggested sharing a crowdfunding campaign so I wanted to lift up this project we run Brownsville because I think a lot of what they've done we can all learn from and sort of they follow a lot of best practices for in their crowdfunding practice that we can all learn from so we run Brownsville is a really great project out of Brownsville Brooklyn led by two residents of Brownsville who also happen to be passionate runners and their program is a free walk-run fitness training program for women in Brownsville the name is a little bit of a double entendre because their group is also really not just about fitness they're also really creating community creating safe spaces fighting systemic injustices in their communities and building community power so that their residents there can help run Brownsville so really great project we love them they've raised about $25,000 over the past couple years through multiple smaller crowdfunding campaigns and some of the things that they always do really well in their campaigns are listed here they do a great job of enabling other people to spread the word for them and echo their message and get the word out on their behalf enable those cheerleaders they always use multiple outreach strategies so you'll see them posting on social media and you'll get an email from them and they'll be tabling at the community event they're really do a great job of kind of reaching out to everyone in their network they always have a great use of suggested giving amounts on their page which is something we always recommend and they're really good at thanking and sending good thank you's just some more a little more to flesh out all of those points with enabling cheerleaders so on the screen here what you're seeing is a screenshot of somebody promoting their campaign on Facebook and then also screenshot of the content that they were essentially sending out to people during their campaigns to make it easy for people to post on social media for them so prepping that language so they can and sending it to people so they can control the messaging around their campaign and also just make it really easy for people to post on their behalf screenshot here is of their suggested gift amounts from one of their campaigns unlike Kickstarter which is definitely the platform you want to go with if you are offering rewards on IOB it complicates the tax deduction so we usually push people towards doing a suggested giving amount instead but we do encourage doing that putting a dollar amount into the mind of the person you're reaching out to can be a powerful way to challenge them to maybe give it a level that is meaningful to your project you can also do a lot of creative free things around gift amounts one of my favorite gifts for an IOB campaign ever was run by a community garden that had this like a very charismatic chicken at the garden and everybody loved this chicken and if you gave it a certain level you could come by the garden and get your picture taken with this chicken and they would like post it on Facebook and tag you in it so your friends would know you gave and were a community chicken loving person so it kind of like blew up everybody wanted their photo with this chicken it was really creative engagement for them so you can have fun with suggesting these amounts to we're in Brownsville use multiple outreach strategies I mentioned so the screenshot here is of some language they used actually for letters to go out to local businesses letters seem like so super old-school we think of crowdfunding happening more like online on social media etc but depending on your donor base might make sense to like mix it up with some offline asks to and we see that a lot in different communities and finally we run Brownsville so good at saying thank you I personally am shocked at how many people forget to say thank you at the end of a successful crowdfunding campaign so this is just a screenshot of a post from their page of one campaign they would also of course email thank yous out to everybody and they're really great at doing the immediate thank you when you give to one of their campaigns and really great at using that as a thank you and like thank you so much for your donation and please let your friend know about our campaign please post this language on your Facebook page to tell everyone you gave etc so that thank you and can be a big powerful factor for getting kind of that ripple effect of reaching some new donors who aren't in your immediate network so kind of like Daniel was talking about it's I think a most important starting point with crowdfunding is always to just kind of know who your donors are actually take that time to sit down and plan like who are the people that you're actually going to be reaching out to maybe that's just a list you brainstorm or maybe that's a drawing like the network map but if it helps to frame that bit brainstorm here's some ways you can can think about it when you're trying to put pen to paper we would encourage you to think about reaching out to people who are able to give at some level might be Daniel was also mentioning this might be the case that they're able to give something else to your work or your project besides cash maybe they would be a great volunteer or cheerleader or fundraising teammate or have a skill they can bring to the table but people are just able to give something that is useful to this work that you're trying to support you're gonna want to focus on people that you know or at least think are probably already bought into what you're doing already kind of like aligns with something that they're interested in and then see you are gonna want to start with people who are connected to you in some way and that could just literally be like anyone you have the ability to get contact information for or can get in front of them because they're on the readership of a newsletter that you can get posted in etc whatever those connections are another way you can think about framing that brainstorm is thinking about some of the big reasons why people give to crowdfunding campaigns so you might brainstorm one bucket of people that's like people who would give because they love you they don't even care that much about what you're asking them for money for they're just gonna give because it's you that's asking so that might be like friends and family networks typically you might also have a bucket of people that are people actually impacted by the project you're doing people who you know will have some benefit to actually seeing that project happen maybe it's in their community maybe they get to participate in it that can be a key group of people to reach out to or there might other there might be folks who you don't know that well they're not necessarily giving because you're the one asking but seems like you could get them to be passionate about your project or for example here working on something in the arena of food justice there's a lot of food justice groups across the country and here in New York that you might be connected to people you know through those networks might already be kind of primed to give to something that connects to that interest so once you have some sense of who those donors are that you're going to be reaching out to then you can start to think in real terms about what might be the best way to reach them I think this is very not one size fits all we have iobi campaigns that are like entirely funded on social media because the project leader is like has a big following is very active on social media that's the primary way they're connected with the people they think are likely to give we have other iobi campaigns that happen almost entirely offline where people are just like talking to folks in person getting their email address and sending them a follow-up or like tabling at community events and swiping donations on the spot with a square device so this can look really really different depending on what your own donor potential donor network looks like but in general you're going to want to probably think about using a mix of strategies of emails personalizing them of course is always great and more effective social media agree with Daniel that newsletters can be awesome phone calls can be awesome or even those in person asks people that you're running into in the community it's great chance to ask presenting at meetings that kind of thing and depending on the project you're doing you might also be seeking press related to your project or your campaign and then somebody had had the question about momentum keeping up momentum during the campaign we're like huge fans of planning here at iobi we really push the planning tools before you start fundraising because one of the things that can really keep up momentum is like knowing what communications you're planning to send and when you're planning to send them and already like having that plan sketched out so that once you hit go and your fundraising campaign you can kind of just like run down that drill we also recommend when you have your list of potential donors you're looking at that list there will be some people on that list where you were like oh I know they'll give it feels easier to ask them than to ask like these people that I haven't been in touch with for three years or whatever so he's doing those easier asks first can be a great way to like show some early momentum in your fundraising so that everybody else who doesn't know you as well as likely to jump on board after that also great confidence builder for you to do some of those easy asks first and then for momentum we would also recommend changing up your content a little bit through the campaign you don't want to be hitting people with like the same email over and over again like please give to my crowdfunding campaign you know so sharing different messages about why you're excited about this work maybe different behind the scenes photos or different stories whatever that is to just kind of keep that content fresh and you can kind of amp up the urgency of that as you're fundraising deadline years and then there had also been a question about kind of tone to use with this and I think that really depends on what you're fundraising for but depending on and fundraising for laundromat project for example I would think the tone could be somewhat celebratory other projects you're working on or things that are like responding to a crisis in your community of course may have a much more serious tone either way I think it's important to just kind of share the urgency of whatever you're fundraising for share your passion about it and to get comfortable telling the story about your story of why you think people should give to this and really let yourself sound like you not like some idea of what you think of fundraiser should sound like and I think that authenticity can really help build trust and get people on board and I'm just about out of time but I think that was my last thing there's my contactant if anybody wants it thanks all so much go back and mute here for questions and stop my screen share is this is this question time oh I think she's on mute thank you and I'll go ahead and open it up to questions so anybody will do this popcorn style whatever form popcorn style takes good question um so athena you mentioned that these those four stages in that slideshow of keeping it momentum from the announcement to the last chance and I totally understand what the announcement in the last chance would look like but could you give me some examples or expand on what it's like the celebration and the urgency builder would look like sure yeah and that's screenshot was just taken from our like more in-depth thing in our leader toolkit so I can also have send that out to everybody if folks are interested in more detail on that but the celebratory message referred to in that screenshot is intended to be like say when you hit your 25 percent or 50 percent mark on your campaign is a great time to to kind of celebrate that and share kind of share that message of like hey people are jumping on board with this like we're on track towards our goal which can help with the human psychology of like other people wanting to jump on board and then an urgency builder would be like maybe as you head into say the last 25 percent of your campaign where it's not like the last day to give but you're starting to kind of ramp up that sense of urgency of like please give soon thank you this is Aaron I can jump in with a quick question if that's all right hello yeah go for it okay first I want to thank you Laundromat and thank you to the two speakers really informative and really helpful I was thinking you know about sending out you know what I'll be doing for the LP and their people power challenge and I have a lot of contacts in New York people in New York who may have heard of the Laundromat project but also a lot of contacts in Chicago and LA and thinking about how to engage people in other cities who may not be directly affected by the campaign obviously I would still think about people who love art and people who love change and people who like me or trust me but is there other sort of tools and tips you might have or reaching people that aren't directly affected or maybe live in other cities let me start I can I have a few ideas so I think if with that specific advice to and also in general with kicksters we almost always recommend having rewards that are say acknowledgement based so those are great ways to get people excited that may physically not even go see the thing that you're fundraising for but they want to be part of it so this logic is kind of like some of the rewards we say are like name in a brochure name on the website social media shout-out to as large as if you're doing an exhibition it can be like name on the gallery wall these are ways of essentially you're using the sort of like reward sort of like carrot stick as a way to get people excited even if you know and they know you're never going to go actually see the thing itself I've also definitely found if there's a geographic distance hitting those people up a little bit after the people who have like Anthony had said like the people who love you and gave day one little bit after that showing it to people that are farther out gives them that visual indication because right all they're seeing is probably your voicemails your texts or whatever is online and showing that that's like doing really well and we've already got 30 people in the program we've already got 40 backers that builds that bandwagon effect of like on like oh all my friends are doing it I should do it too so that's a second I would do I would start with those two and see if they work I can actually hop in and offer one other thing Aaron in that regard passively inserting myself as well but it's one of those things I think it's also putting the work in context so where it is LP for example is very place based where New York City the issues that we work around facilitate or the issues that people are dealing with are not necessarily unique to New York City so gentrification is taking place in New York is taking place in LA it's taking place all across the US so figuring out connectivity moments and points where you can take the local issue and broaden it out and put it on a more international scale I think is a good way just to show people this is what's happening here this is how we're supporting here but the issue doesn't stop here so making sure that something that comes up through your messaging and finding connectivity points and moments I think I can offer that as well something to consider when you're thinking about reaching out to folks who aren't here in the city well thank you both I have one question for Daniel so on that point about geography and rewards I'm kind of curious if there are any rewards that are not a good idea because it might be too local like say like entrance to a specific venue or like location if that's not a good idea or say like offering like food or baked goods as a reward I guess there's some good like callouts of like what not to do so I actually love this I have a whole laundry list of rewards not to do and they're the funny thing is that it's almost kind of like opposite of what you're thinking so the the less the rewards feel personal the less they feel exciting and also usually the higher they end up costing so those are rewards that are like I call them merch rewards so like t-shirt tote bag hat these are all things that feel a little bit impersonal and also quite frankly their production costs can sometimes spike up if you don't like reach that threshold of you need 200 people to get the t-shirt and then suddenly the t-shirts cost double the amount so those are tend to say avoid rewards that make your project feel like a gift shop and instead I've actually found a ton of success in prop and rewards that do feel super localized so like one of our artists right now can be a Lujini he had a reward totally sell out that was literally like family dinner with can be and it was like I'll barbecue will have my friend who's a guest chef come over just come over to my house and we'll hang out and people loved it because they love him they love the project and they want to hang out with them so I've actually seen the more personal you get sometimes the more localized you get the more it feels like that person feels like that rewards for them because again it's building that like oh I want to do that that sounds really cool and again so like if it's a reward it's like a half of your community is not in the city ages and then like acknowledgement base way or what is one thing that I can shit pretty cheap for like you know a really simple print that's like eight and a half by 11 that you can print a hundred of them for two bucks and you can ship in a flat file and that takes half a day but yeah I would actually say the more personal and the more kind of like come grab a beer with me let's do a barbecue I'll do a studio visit with you usually the people closest to you get more actually more excited about that cool thank you yeah I do have one question from Amelia and what are both Daniel and Anthony what are your pro tips on easy mistakes that can happen kind of things to avoid Anthony do you want to take this one and then I'll go after sure yeah I can jump in on that so I would say one thing you want to be want to avoid is being the three words that come to mind to me for me that you should avoid being vague being impersonal or being repetitive so I think the more specific you can be about like what are you fundraising for like what will this donation you're asking for help make happen in the world I think that is always great to be sure that that's like super clear maybe like have somebody who's not familiar with what you're fundraising for proofread your page before you put it out there be sure the story that you're telling is really clear to people who aren't already familiar with the project and then the more you can personalize your asks reaching out the better I see a lot a lot of crowdfunding campaigns get stuck because of this idea that you can kind of just like post it on your Facebook feed like over and over again and without like tagging anyone or messaging anyone or making it more personal in any way and it just doesn't work so the more you can personalize emails or social media posts etc. the better or rewards like annual saying and I think again just like interesting content kind of like changing it up a little bit throughout your campaign can go a long way to yeah I at the knee I love the idea of personalizing that just tends to work the best so like I say a tool that people tend to forget about are like just the power of a personal email which can literally be three sentences it can be similar to the text that you sent to people but maybe they're a little bit more of a professional contact and so you want to approach them in a little bit more of a professional way the email can be like hi Dean hope you're well so great seeing you last week I I'm about to launch this really cool project here's the link it's going live 10 a.m. on Thursday I think you would love the $75 reward because you said you were interested in my work let me know if you have questions best X and see even in that email example I gave I didn't even say a crowdfunding campaign you just simply said I'm doing an exciting new project or like hey just letting you know here's the link to that project that I talked about and when they get to it of course they're going to see it's a crowdfunding campaign but what they are going to be excited about is knowing that you have been personally like drawn from the email sphere even like social media DMs to like Instagram DMs work great so the more personal the better and the only other thing I had to add to that to avoid this is just kind of like verb choice but I've really seen the call to action be stronger if you really avoid language that is please help me or please donate or help me now sometimes that sense of urgency can feel a little bit like help me and it comes from a space of like almost desperation so instead moving it as far away from that as possible and thinking of using verbs that are like join our community this is our project for us together I want you to be part of this story with me those feel way more inclusive and also frames the Kickstarter or any crowdfunding campaign as a way of like actively engaging on a project because of course right they are just giving you $5 but that $5 is telling a story and it's making an impact and they're there for the ride so yeah I've definitely wanted to pinpoint that one for sure just thinking about the kind of verbs that you're using the sort of like ask verbs make them feel really strong and powerful one of their thought I'd love to insert kind of related to the idea of things to avoid it is or something not to do I would say just don't be afraid to ask more than once oh yeah and I experienced this personally not too long ago when I gave to a Kickstarter campaign actually for a local Brooklyn art space here that I had you know I'd signed up on their mailing list at some point and even given them my phone number at some point we're doing like a really ambitious campaign is like seeing it on social media and was like oh that's cool maybe I'll give to that and I didn't because like we're busy and there's a lot of noise online and then again email from them and was like oh yeah yeah that's cool I'll give to that and then I did it and then towards their end of their campaign they were doing like a phone banking night and one of their volunteers actually called me and was like I got this like voicemail from them that was like we really need your donation and I was like oh yeah they would not I know they really need like me and like finally sat down and got out the credit card and did it so that's just like my personal plug for not being discouraged if people don't give immediately a lot of times it might just be because they're busy and need to be invited into this multiple times at the right moment I'm I'm so curious as to who that was it was it was made a space up in oh yeah yeah I say like max email people three times if you don't know them four or five times if you do so like if you've sent someone an email week one and they haven't gone back it's probably just buried right it's not that they like don't care about you just buried so sending another wave and then sending another wave usually you know yeah it does give you that kind of like oh yeah I have to do that awesome so we are actually right on time it is 8 o'clock look at that efficiency is awesome and so I guess if there are any other questions I'll go ahead and just for the sake of time wrap up because I know this conversation can go on and on we'll probably see here for a full day plus talking about this particular topic but thank you