 Welcome. Thanks to all of you that have decided to join us here today, either live or watching the recording, another episode of the nonprofit show. Today we're sitting down with Bill Schwab, CPA with your part-time controller, which we often refer to as YPTC because everyone always loves a good acronym. But Bill's here to shed some light on using dashboards and visualizations for your NPO, another acronym, nonprofit organization. Thanks to Julia Patrick, who came up with this wonderful platform. She serves as the CEO of the American Nonprofit Academy. I'm honored that I haven't gotten fired yet, just kidding, but I really do love these conversations. I was really thrilled when she reached out to me in March of 2020 and said, hey, I have this wackadoo idea. Would you love to do it? And I said, yes, as the nonprofit nerd CEO of the Raven group, I would be more than happy to fill in and help you as the co-host of the show. And we've done about 600 episodes now, Bill. Honestly, our 600th is coming up next month, actually next week. And we could not do it without our sponsors, including your part-time controller. So thank you so much for that, as well as our other presenting sponsors, which include Bloomerang, American Nonprofit Academy, Fundraising Academy, that's with the National University, Nonprofit Nerds, Staffing Boutique, and the Nonprofit Thought Leader. And again, another shout out to your part-time controller because we're just so honored to have these colleagues joining us from around the nation, you know, sharing some really high level conversations. If you missed any of YPTC's conversations with us or any of our other guests, you can find those episodes on Roku, Fire TV, YouTube, and Vimeo. If you're a podcast listener, go ahead and queue us up wherever you stream your podcast. Bill, as I mentioned, you are back again, so you're not a new face, you're not a new voice, but this is a new conversation. So I'm excited to have you back. Thank you. Oh, thank you. Thanks for having me back. It's great. And congrats almost on episode 600. That is fantastic. Yes, thank you. And again, seriously, thanks so much to you, your colleagues at YPTC. Tell those that are watching and listening a little bit about your part-time controller, what you offer as the nonprofit counting specialist across the nation. So if they're new and they say, hey, I don't think I've heard this acronym before, tell them a little bit about YPTC. Oh, thank you. I mean, I'd love to say, you know, like you said, everyone loves a good acronym, but I always say, you know, you look at our name, your part-time controller, it's exactly what we do. Our whole business model is right in the name. So we are accounting and financial specialists focused on functioning as outsourced controllers and CFOs exclusively for the nonprofit community. So of course, that's why we're so excited to be here on the nonprofit show. But also, you know, of course, I'm a CPA, but now I get to, in my role at YPTC, like sit at what I call like this intersection of accounting and technology. So where accounting and technology meets using technology to make our clients' lives easier, their processes easier. And then as we're going to talk about today, using visual images to help tell clients' financial stories as well. Yeah. Thank you for that. I always think of your part-time controller as the pot of gold at the end of the rainbow because, truly, Bill, like there are so many accounting companies, but there's not many that truly dedicate in the nonprofit sector. And I have seen too many budgets misallocated and just, you know, run amok because they didn't have that dedicated your part-time controller focus and lens in the sector. So thank you for joining us and sharing a little bit about that. So we're going to get super nerdy, and I love that Julia put these glasses here because, you know, I am certainly known for my nerdy glasses as well, but we're going to dive into how people see these numbers in these graphic elements. So take it away, Bill, as the data visualization expert. How do people see numbers in graphic elements? Sure. No, thank you. So it's all about, you know, we always say, right, what's the old adage? A picture is worth a thousand words, right? So there's a lot of ways to present information visually, to interpret information visually. But honestly, you know, we say, we actually say, you know, very often times when it comes to presenting numbers, less is actually more. You know, a lot of folks when they're creating a graph, and we see this internally even because we have, you know, my team, we do a whole training program just on how to present compelling visual images to your clients. You don't need to cram every little number into your graph. And we have a saying where like every mark helps or hurts, right? So only put it in there if it's going to emphasize the point or tell the story, you know, that you're trying to tell. So it's not, it's not so much to say, we've got to put every number in here. What's important to say is, well, let's think about what the most important number is. And I think, and I know you have a slide that speaks to this a little bit later on about information overload. But really it comes back to, and it's as simple as saying, what, where do you want your audience to direct their attention, right? And that's, it's as simple as that. It's where, you know, where, where in that graphic do you want your audience to look where on the page, and it can be a very simple visual image that does that as opposed to a graph that's got, you know, 50 or 100 numbers on it. Thank you for that. You know, I always feel like, and we are going to talk about information overload. Our guest yesterday was a marketing representative with websites and he shared, you know, kind of these vanity numbers and then these so what numbers and so I love that you said numbers are either going to help or hurt. I'm so curious, do you share the same graphics, quarterly, like quarter, quarter after quarter month after month, like, are you sticking with those same graphics and just updating the data. So it depends the short answer is yes and no. So sometimes we'll design a graphic and we and we had this situation for a client where we designed a graphic and it was meant to be a one time just storytelling graphic in this case it was mentioning during during the pandemic, when a client you know they were they were forced to cancel a lot of in person events and things of that nature but but through that it highlighted that okay yes you know you're you know your contributions or your event revenue is going down, but you're actually generating a lot more revenue from service fees and other, you know, other revenue stream so what was originally designed to be kind of a one time storytelling graphic that we put in front of the leadership and the board. They actually looked at that and said, Oh, this is a good thing right service fee revenues a good thing we want to grow service fee revenue. And now let's take this what was meant to be a one time chart and kind of change it a little bit to now look at our progress towards growing service fee revenue so then every month, we, we, you know we did an update to say yep here's, here's where you are here's how it's growing here's how close you're getting to your target so what what may have been intended or what might be intended is just a one time graph. In some cases might stay that way or in some cases might evolve into into something that's then presented on an ongoing basis either in the same or or a new format. Great example and every time I sit around a board table bill I notice that you know narrative versus a chart or some kind of a visualization of a graph. There's there's way more dialogue actually that happens around that chart and that data visualization than the paragraph that sits next to it. Absolutely, absolutely. And we take, you know, we actually, you know, in internally within yptc and we actually, you know, we have an explicit standard that we that we follow and we train our staff on. But part of that includes, yeah the graph is important, but it's more important to say what the graph is telling you right like thinking newspaper we actually refer to it as a headline you know don't just say, you see a lot of graphs that say actual versus budget, well that doesn't tell me anything, whereas, you know, a good headline might say, hey, our, you know, our building expenses are way over budget. So before you even get to the graph, you know what the story is that it's telling and I think I think that's why some data visualizations might be difficult for people it's not because they don't understand the numbers but a lot of visualizations don't tell you ahead of time or don't announce what the reader should take away from it. Right. No, those are great examples and you had mentioned earlier data overload. Right. When do we reach this information or this data overload because I'm sure you've seen it where people just glaze over their eyes glass over. When do we know we've reached that. I think it goes back to, you know, the point you know what we what we talked about earlier when I said you know you don't need to put every number into the graph. And I think, you know, I think that's, you know that that's obviously a fine line to walk but you know really it's you reach that point where if if you're not. If you're not telling the reader and it's okay like I said it's okay to in that headline. It's okay to tell the reader exactly what the takeaway is I mean I tell our staff this if if you read the headline of the graph, and you read maybe the little bit of narrative text under it. The next item you're going to get to is the graph itself but even if you don't look at the graph you should still be able to know what the story is just by reading that headline and that interpretation. The numbers the graph, the graph is there to support the story you're telling in the headline. And, and I think, you know, if you if you try to squeeze every single data point into that graphic. That's where you're getting to that data overload point you don't need to do that you use the graph itself to support the story you're telling but really it's that headline and interpretation that that that that speak to the the story that needs to be told to the reader. I really appreciate the headline and the, the, you know, a comparison to the newspaper, because I can see that really directing the conversation there's no ability to interpret it in a different way. So, could you, would you really dive into interpretation a little bit more and how you've maybe seen these graphs and charts being interpreted differently. Sure, absolutely. So in terms of, you know, we work, you know, we'll work closely with with our client staff at YPTC where they're, you know, they're preparing, you know, a set of of monthly monthly financial reports for for their clients and it's really often the staff are, you know, our client service staff they'll come to us and be like, Hey, I think there's an opportunity to tell a story with with a graphic here. Or maybe even, you know, they've they've picked up on it through through conversations with their clients because we tell our staff or like listen listen for clues because a client may not know that they need a graphic or that a graphic might be useful. And just in the questions they're asking you, they might be asking for one without even realizing it, you know, like maybe an executive director is saying, Hey, I'm reviewing the financials and, and, and these numbers here, you know, we really need to the board needs to know about this or we need to highlight this for the board, or a board member might be saying hey I'm looking at these numbers. So a certain amount of cash is is that enough is it too much is it too little. All those are great questions that can be answered by by by a graphic. And are these graphics and the data visualization, could they be used with various stakeholders because I'm thinking what a fantastic way to share that same story in a visual element with staff for them to better understand. Are they intended for multiple stakeholder groups. They certainly can be and it's funny we kind of train our staff on that you know we say look if you create a graphic. You have to assume it might get shared right so make sure it either has all those elements we were talking about right it's got that headline the interpretation the graphic. Either has all those elements or it doesn't if one's missing we're like hey it's not going to hang together because if it gets copied. If it gets copied and pasted and moved somewhere else, whoever that graphic had whoever that graphic lands in front of it's got to have all those pieces so that that new recipient has has all of those elements as well. But we actually you know we've had clients that have have come to us and said you know they've told us they're like look we actually want to build graphics that that we're going to show publicly. You know whether it's on their website maybe it's in their annual reports. So it absolutely. You know we always kind of keep in the back of our mind that you have to assume and and and certainly embrace I think the fact that every graphic could potentially be used and be useful to multiple stakeholders both inside and outside the organization. That's very wise because nowadays right information is shared so freely so publicly so easily. And then I also really appreciate that impact report or annual report of how you can continue to repurpose possibly repackage. Of course you know one of our live viewers here today bill you mentioned is on your data visualization group with yptc. How large is this group within your organization there. Yeah, so thank you so yeah so we have a group of five full time folks just within yptc who focus on all things data visualization. But we also have and when I say part time not that they're part time staff to yptc but they split their time between doing client service work. So the work that I started out at yptc yptc doing being one of our associates and serving our clients so they split their time between doing client service work and work for for data visualization so all told. We have seven staff members who in some capacity are dedicated to data visualization but we're we're in the process where we're actually in the process we have an internal training program on visualization that that is is being rolled out to all of our client facing staff. So that is fan tastic I love hearing that because you know this is something we need more of and more people to understand it. I can also imagine that some people say data is scary. So what are the keys to making data or data tomato tomato less fearful tell us what these keys might be. It's all about. I think probably the most important thing is is the reader in like you want to grab their attention and and and say hey come in there's great data here it's not something to it's not something to be afraid of and and and we actually you know I mentioned our training program that we do internally we actually we show that as a comparison with with with two doors. The first one we say you know is your data for voting or is it inviting and for for voting. We use you know we use the example of a prison we show a big prison with a large wall and a gate and we say right that's an example of something that's for voting but it's supposed to be right you don't want you're not meant to feel welcome. Obviously that's you know when you look at it when you look at a graph if that's your takeaway. You've probably missed the mark right you want to be able to invite the reader in so so the opposite side of that is we have this you know this picture of a friendly looking door with a you know and some some nice flowers and and say hey that that's what you want right and invite the reader and we do that to help you know to help make the data accessible. It really comes back to you know it really comes back to how the data looks right and I mentioned that headline that interpretation keeping it simple not not showing more information than you need to on the graph it helps draw the reader in but also help direct their attention to right because you know you and I certainly both both know this Jarrett you know executive directors board members. They all have one thing in common and that is they're probably all short on time right so so you've got to get in. Make your point and and make it explicitly and say this this remember those questions I asked right and if an executive director saying hey these stats we have to trumpet these to the board well make make your point right. Yeah, no I appreciate that. You know I have to ask this elephant in the room question. Should we as nonprofit leaders truly be highlighting and sharing only headlines that are positive, or can we also share those, you know in six months at this burn rate, our doors are closed. It's we've, if that's the story to be told, and that's the story that needs to be put in front of the board, you absolutely cannot and should not shy away from that and we've, you know we've certainly had, you know, clients where we've developed graphics for that have told that story. And, you know, we try to do it in such a way to say you know yes here's here's the forecast you know maybe maybe it's a cash flow forecast, and we'll say look based on current assumptions current trends. This is where things are looking, you know this is where things things are possibly trending over the next six to 12 months, but try to do it in such a way that's also offering alternatives right saying okay well if you know you know here's here's possible different, you know different options you know maybe there's some, you know some grants at the organization's going after well if you get that grant here's here's what that outcome looks like so you know they're there certainly it's it's never, you know it's never a situation where we only I mean we'd love it right we'd love it if if all we had to deliver to our clients was was good news but sometimes unfortunately there's some some some not so good news to tell, but I think a you know because it all comes back again to how the graphic is presented and the fact that the graphic, I think, can help tell the impactful story to say yes here's the situation here's what the organization or your organization is potentially facing over the next six to 12 months, but now let's talk about how we can address it and what some alternatives are to help address it. Sure. Thank you for that because I you know, I know we don't want to be doom and gloom but sometimes we need to face that reality and share the stark sobering you know data of this is where we are. I mentioned earlier to you bill that I have a colleague that has joined us live today from Canada's is so glad that you're here. And they, they asked a live question so I'm going to read that out loud to you and and see how you might answer this for them. So the question is, why do you think some CEOs or executive directors resist graphic reports to their board, or disagree disagree on which numbers matter and might be right. Great question and greetings hello from hello from Canada. So, you know, I think you know in terms of resisting. I think, you know, maybe sometimes you know executive directors or CEOs, you know we say you know make the data accessible right but maybe sometimes the fear is well we don't want to make it to accessible right but. But I think it's, it's important you know it's it's important to have that to have that transparency so I certainly can understand you know maybe, maybe if they're maybe if there is bad news and executive director be like well we don't want to explicitly say it in a in a graph but, but I would you know I would counter that by saying I think if there's a story to be told, you know a graphic helps underscore that story and and repetition isn't always bad, you know sometimes it does take repetition. I had a situation, you know with this with with with one of my one of my own clients where, you know they were faced with with a cash flow, you know a cash flow crunch and it was one that we foresaw coming years ahead of time, and it took repeating it various ways in the financial statements in our written communications in our verbal conversations and then in our in our graphical communications as well for the board to finally realize oh yeah we need to take we need to take action we need to take action on this. Great, great question and I go back to you know the comment or question I said and you answered be ready for any graph any data visualization to get into the hands of others. And I'm curious so the last question for me, maybe I don't know I shouldn't promise that is, if a CEO executive director is resisting and showing that resistance bill. Do you have ways and how we might start to you know like teaspoon feed them some data visualization that isn't fearful and helps them to better find comfort and ease in receiving that that element. Absolutely so I think it all goes back I you know I mentioned earlier, you know we kind of you know we tell our staff our client staff this to kind of listen for those cues right you know what. What are the questions that your clients are having when when you're meeting with them and if, if you see a you know an executive director saying oh you know I really need to, you know get a better understanding of where we're spending our money on this program or on that program or how these expenses are trending. That's a question that that you know has the potential to be answered with a graphic so so so maybe when you sit down, you know maybe you don't put it in a report that's going to go to a board but maybe on one conversation with with the executive director CEO say hey I remember from our last conversation you were you were asking you about x, y or z and here's the explanation but also here's you know here's maybe a graphical way to look at the answer to that question as well. Great great answer I really appreciate appreciate that you know many of us use dashboards and that has data visualization baked into it. And so you know for me really spending a lot of my time and fundraising. I focus on this this data visualization because I want to see the charts and the pie graphs and I want to see that you know the line items changing there so I like that approach and hopefully our friend up north did to Well any other tips about making them less fearful because I I'm sure there's there's many more I love the you know the two door imagery that's that's powerful. Yeah, absolutely. No, I mean it's all really you know and I'll say it again but you know again it all I think comes back to just knowing knowing what the story is you want to tell an explicitly telling that story and and having the data support and your graphic support that story as well you know what's what's what's that key takeaway what's that headline what's that what's that interpretation. We always say you know tell the reader everything they need to know and nothing they don't right and and and and interpret you know interpret explicitly you just you just you just lay it out there and say you know this this hey reader this this is what you need to focus on. Yeah. Okay, I'm not done so so it so it finds out. How long does it take for your group to come up with some of these data visualization elements so if we said okay bill I'm all in and drinking the Kool-Aid we need to do more of this to in our organization. Obviously becoming a client with ypt is step one, but then like, how long does it take to create these graphs. Yeah, so it again there's there's no one size fits all approach but I will tell you, you know, we very often an associate one of our staff members will come to us and be like I think there's there's a story to be told here, and within, you know, maybe a consultation of of an hour or two and then some work on on our side to actually build the graph but within you know within you know a couple days there's there's usually something we can we can put in front of the client. Perfect, I love that so very much. You know these keys to making data less fearful is really what we need this image here right it really has this the analog over over a female and it looks for voting. I will say that does not look like they rolled out the welcome that. So thank you for all of this bill, you know, as we wrap up is there anything that your part time controller provides our viewers and listeners where we can find more more information and data for ourselves. Absolutely so so everything I was talking about today, you know the graphs that the charts how they look we actually have a ton of samples on on yptc's on yptc's page so if you go to yptc's main website. There's a link to our data visualization page right from our from our main page that will actually let you look at some you mentioned dashboards Jared we have some sample dashboards that folks can play around with and also what we call our static graphics showcase, which is dozens of examples of real life now of course they've they've all been scrubbed for the purposes of being on the internet but every one of those sample graphics that you see there were you know were originally created for for an actual client. So very helpful and I'm going to pull up your contact information for yptc, your part time controller their web address is yptc.com. And I got the permission before we went live that bill is very active on LinkedIn I know we're connected and I appreciate that. So go up on LinkedIn he shares some great information as well as his other data visualization group colleagues and the entire association with your part time controller. I learned so very much and really just have to say, thank you because I personally have and professionally grown through these high level conversations you know Jennifer Aliva joined us we've had Ellie we've had so many amazing amazing talented professionals from the organization across the nation so really grateful to have your your leadership in the sector. Thank you so much no we it's a pleasure for all of us every time we're on. Great, well thank you so very much pleased to check out your part time controller, been a phenomenal partner of the nonprofit show for Julia and myself. So thank you so very much to all of our presenting sponsors that allow us these conversations. Today was a popular one I can tell because we got questions we had a lot of live viewers we're probably going to, you know, blow up the streaming channels by way of watching the replay. So again I want to give a verbal shout out to all of our presenting sponsors that include blimmering American nonprofit Academy fundraising Academy with the National University, nonprofit nerd staffing boutique nonprofit thought center and our very own Bill Schwab here with your part time controller again thank you to you and all of your colleagues for not only, you know, providing this this information but providing your time because time is money and if anyone knows that it's certainly why PTC so thank you so much Bill for sharing all of this wonderful wisdom with us. My pleasure thanks for having me. Absolutely. And thanks to all of you that have joined us today either live or watching one of our recordings we're glad that you are here joining us. As we like to end each and every episode we end with this mantra, please stay well, so you can do well. Join us back here tomorrow.