 um great just taking advantage of a couple minutes of private track time that's lovely yeah morning Pete how are you today it's so good to see you i think you're muted yeah it's good to see you jenny Charles good morning jenny Charles is floating in the universe jenny you're working on something that homeschooling pods could learn from they are you were talking about that a few weeks ago if you can email that for me i have two homeschooling pods one grandson is in they're both in two different homeschooling pods on the farm yeah we'd love to connect with you about that sure kevin kevin i wanted i'm sorry i haven't gotten back to you because i have a bunch of stuff that i do want to send you but in particular a rich area for science and related knowledge content is the professional societies and specifically the american chemical society has a whole bunch of science k-12 all done very effectively that they've put together totally open resource for use in the pandemic by anyone by parents by teachers etc but it's you know it starts at the very simple levels of k-3 you know with cartoons and representational concepts and moves up through high school science so they've done it i was pleasantly proudly surprised that they had done all of this in rather quick order but i think i'm i'm scouting around now because other professional societies are likely to have done the same triple a s if you can send me just a link to what you have or yeah i'll send you a link to what i have the the other pieces that i'm starting to tap into some um north american predominantly but not entirely intergenerational learning exchange things in terms of the the role that the mentors are playing the elders are playing as mentors to the children especially during covid and how they're redoing that because it has to be virtual instead of physical and security issues and all those other things but both of those threads might be of use to you yeah yeah what they're finding in the pod is like you know there's a math mom and there's a social studies dad and they one shows up at one time and one the other while they're still a teacher just because of what they care about no let's um let's corral up so we can so we can get busy uh joe cornelly had a really good idea on uh our list which was to check to check in on the chat and basically if you uh would like to put in a couple lines about what's up for you in the chat we can read through that that would be really awesome um and that's really interesting so kevin your line is muted but i'm hearing some typing i think from your line because it's highlighted that was probably me so okay it's probably you that's interesting kevin's a little frame showed as yellow like how sound coming from kevin he's muted it's impossible i do think meal is planning come on but he might be just tabling cool awesome but he said he was planning to come uh yeah news overdose i'm i'm ready for tonight's debate i'm i'm like primed and set and we are gonna like may pop may pop corn and make the rabbit hole politics right now but you're gonna watch you're gonna watch a movie though right yeah exactly we're gonna watch all the president's men um or three days in the condor i don't know there's so many choices um so um so yeah a little discombobulated is is right because like the world is a little crazy so i i created a google doc for us to um use i just lost my which of these many windows is my zoom there we go i created a google doc for us to um share answers in and i may have the wrong questions in the google doc but if you want to click on there anybody with the link should have edit privileges um so everybody can go writing in and what i was thinking was as we talk we could flesh out questions on here i'm not sure i have the right questions but um but i thought this would be a really good way for us to focus our efforts a bit and get a lot of things done quickly and parallel as we have discussion and so let me just walk through the questions that i set up and i don't know that we can get through all of them in an hour because i'd like to wrap at the top of the hour but i i said what is the best thing you can imagine that ogm creates or does or pulls off like what like just free your mind you've been in some conversations you've been online you've been in different places some of this has been turning i think a lot of us have think it's you know think ogm is a like a rope or like a wall or like a like a vat of lard or something we we have sort of different conceptions of what it is we're working on but what is the best thing we could pull off in your mind second question what organizations are role models or benchmarks what who should we be like like who could we crib good ideas from and this could could end up being a really long list i have a huge list of potential ogm sort of i call them neighbor communities which i'll share in as a link on when i answer that question like like but in particular in particular is an organization that's that's got aims kind of like ours really in some in some way sort of like ours that we might learn a whole lot from our business models etc yeah exactly be strategic allies third how would you describe ogm's business model because at one level this is a fun party where we're volunteering our time and doing something we think is worthwhile that's likely not that's sustainable although there are plenty of communities that have no business model that go on for years and years that are really fruitful so that could happen i think many of us have a feeling like there could be there could be ways of making this sustainable and in particular of having people make a living as they participate in ogm in different ways and of fueling ogm's creation of parts that are missing etc so what would that be number four is how might we best relate with other organizations it is a dream of mine that we approach some of these neighbor communities and say hey how do we build a bridge how might we help you how do you how do you build how do you become a part of what we're busy creating like what does that look like how do we go about doing that is that important number five i put how might we organize ourselves to meet most of our various goals by which i mean a bunch of us are here with different ideas about why we're here and also either specific interests in whether it be education or food science in the food system or systems thinking or whatever else or very different very different desires to cope with ambiguity and uncertainty versus here's a task i can go do let's go do it kind of thing so how do we how do we organize ourselves to to meet some of those things and then the last question is maybe more obvious for any kind of group like this which part of this would you be interested in leading or participating in and so i i just went through the list of questions to just breach them right away with you and have i missed a big important does this sort of cover what you thought we would be talking about here and if not can you type in the chat a question that you would propose we we throw in there and if so give it a number so you know this is more important than number two this is like like if there's a question i'm really missing among these this this quick list what is it and where would you order it but i can write it in also but for number three describing ogm's business model we still didn't really define ogm so or is that's actually what we're doing i think that's what we're doing for this process but maybe there needs to be a more explicit question of how would you define ogm or what is ogm's elevator pitch or what is our like do we need do we need that as a question as well i didn't put that in there's a dimension i think jerry that would be um there's two dimensions of business model one dimension is the economic one um and that's a particular one that we should cover for sure because i think i view that in a way as how do we i'm thinking super big but i'm like i'd like ogm to be a global foundation and to get to that such that we have those monies and resources and endowments and so forth to keep this going in a petro petro perpetual way we have to frame a lot of different dimensions and then decide how we source that funding um but if there's another dimension of it which is how would what what are our what are our outputs that are of value to people um because that's what that's how we build that mass of collective information and shared work and so forth does that help at all um i think it does um anyone else want to frame that or and add it in fold that into the questions we have i think i think this is i go ahead kevin yeah i when i start something i i use a phrase by fringert beekner that has been useful to me he says where does your greatest passion meet with the world's greatest need and i build something there um this is a little bit like the icky guy bend diagram hey neil everybody sorry i'm late i was on another call i got dragged dragged back a bit later than intended so that is okay i'm i'm resharing a link to a google doc that i created which has a bunch of questions in it which i just read through um the question now in front of the group is what other what questions that i that i missed i don't think we're going to get through all these in an hour but if we sort of run in parallel we could get an awful lot done skipping around through it um i i would like to see a question and i'm not so i i i have to brainstorm the question even um but it's about um uh who participates in ogm um uh how how do we encourage diversity um and also um uh how do we have a membrane what what activities would get you kicked out of ogm maybe or something like that um so thresholds of participation of different kinds like how do we how do we improve and increase participation and diversity how do we understand i'm maybe imply inferring from that a question about are there kind of membership types in in terms of somebody's just the lurker and passing through maybe that's too much detail but also how do we know when somebody is stepped out of bounds of behavior for the community and we need to take action that makes it yeah and and for that last one i i didn't really um uh i didn't have types inferred in there although it's an interesting thing to i think that's an interesting thing to observe maybe not necessarily it came up early in my discussions with matt and and hank and and ham we were like well you know there's likely to be a need for some kind of roles or types or something something like that i think that's really useful for the um getting yourself kicked out thing is is i that's not well expressed to you at jerry expressed it better but i think i wouldn't make a laundry list of how that happens but rather um a meta level above that um how our complex resolves um and how do we how do we create you know better participation and and encourage people to either you know show up or or leave and um that brings up two really interesting things i'll go to you charles in just a second two interesting things which is should we have a quote of conduct very likely yes uh and how do we go about conflict resolution which i see as one of the core competencies eventually of ogm just from my own perspective is that a piece of this is about how coming together into uh some sort of some forms of consensus some forms of community some forms of collaborative making of things and to do that we're going to have to figure out contract resolution so i think that's going to play a really a pretty big role uh charles go ahead um well since you mentioned conflict resolution just just to say we we did some deep diving on monday in the kiko lab um so we're sort of it's very alive as a topic um these couple of weeks with us and so we can we can for sure um synergize around that but what i wanted to say was um in regard to what pete was sharing about um diversity and kind of going back before that it's even in the name open global mind right open global mind and then the onboarding aspect i want to sort of highlight somehow and it's um it's not a hundred percent open in that you have to accept people to come into the um the email list for example or i guess with the discourse probably as well so um and that kind of send a flag up with a few people that i wanted to invite in the beginning i i don't know who it was commented you know oh it's open but it's not open but i mean that's i'm fine with all that that's the easy stuff but um just to be aware of these things as they resonate in the brand itself it's open and yet you know the membrane like like how permeable is the brain at the at the at the outset the onboarding so i like that over uh and i'm adding i'm just going to add a question at the end um how would you explain or define ogm uh it's a huge it's a big question but i think that i think that defining ogm is is going to is going to slake some of the hunger we have for for figuring out what we're doing here so i just added that at the end um sounds good yeah so kevin wrote this group is trying to create meaning using tech instructor data mapped on complexity that's a tech male white guy method of pursuing truth mostly diversity is an afterthought the method is culturally exclusive and that is not really changeable so a couple thoughts um just a really quick answer kevin and you've raised your hand so did we did you raise your hand about this statement on the chat or something else yeah i did and yes and i can come up with it with it with a similar situation analogy if that'll be helpful at this moment um if you want to build on that that'd be great yeah so i was with a group of progressive christians uh a couple years ago and there was one black woman in the room and the leader uh white guy said i'm really mourning our lack of diversity and the black woman says look you're all progressive christians and you're dealing with the legacy of a fundamentalist grand grandmother black folks don't have that you're dealing with your issue and uh i'm here as an ambassador to report back so you're not going to get anymore uh that's who you are and that's what it is and so you know my wife went on and took creative event where we looked at mass incarceration and voter suppression we had 40 african-american participation but if you're dealing with white guy issues or if you're dealing with a white guy method of truth and that's the room will look like this room um totally agree and a couple things at the beginning i was trying really hard to improve diversity by challenging everybody who's in my demographic to invite other people who are not to these conversations that has failed we are definitely working on issues that are if you were by pock uh you are not that focused on do we have a memory how do we you know how do we have better dialogue and discourse there's there's extremely like there's hot burning fires on the ground right now that you need to either put out or change um and so and and also third thought is a bunch of the stuff on in ogm is very geeky and is about visualization and storytelling and so forth but there's there's like one of the basic thoughts i was trying to put into ogm wise that emotion and membership trump logic or reason most of the time and how do we bridge the cultural divide how do we create and there's a whole bunch of facilitation presencing vulnerability a dialogue discourse stuff that has nothing to do with technology that's meant to be in this container as well that we haven't represented that that much that well um but that is very much about about the kinds of things that you're talking about kevin so i think i think we're operating at a deficit here but that's not the intention and i think maybe one of our questions should should model this should say how do we how do we prevent being something that's just for us um my hope in one of those questions about bridging or connecting to other organizations is that we can meld into the world of diverse efforts and organizations by being helpful to them duty well just to to play off your first comment in terms of the different types of diversity i haven't given up on this being really broadly inclusive not just the people that are in the room right now i think that that will happen as we develop the dissemination process as we figure out how to run hundreds of little experiments in different communities for different purposes those people will become part of the whole i think that we can be more concerted perhaps about trying to get some people into the workshop and into subsequent workshops which i think is how we ought to view the workshops i think we should keep the very first workshop frame very high level and basically try to answer the questions that you've got here so that we come around to a good perspective and then gradually wade deeper into executional dimensions tangents directions subgroups and subsets but i think it i don't i don't believe that it needs to remain as exclusive if you will as it is right now and it's just that you have to have the right hook and purpose to persuade other passionate people that this warrants the time on their full calendar the things they're already doing with a lot of energy yes neil and then trills yeah thanks everybody thanks judith that one of the challenges that i've had in the past and i think it applies here is do you include do you include before you all try and move forward or do you transcend to then include and my my suggestion is that the we need some vertical differentiation as well as horizontal differentiation there's a need for people that can handle emergent complexity bigger realities than their current worldviews might actually allow them to to be grocking at however if done with system ethics in mind on behalf of all with good intentions and if stated as these are the intentions that we will be inclusive that we will not be judged now we're trying to create a system that will enable it to be done in the future and i think my sense is this is a similar thing that has to be considered for ogm that ogm is a potentially very powerful tool but at what level is it going to operate right and if it's going to operate here it's not going to appeal to these people it's going to operate here it's not going to appeal to these people with some vertical integration it can appeal to all those people because it's different levels of narrative different levels of meaning different levels of whatever so my sense is that the the experiments aren't just spatially distributed on a plane they're potentially different levels of experiment and how do we hold the space to address trauma collective trauma around money around power around status around race around how do we hold space for specific targeted interventions in a small community and how do we sense into that so there's going to be different roles at different levels that can be applied and one of the issues Judy and I had a conversation yesterday one of the issues that came up for me was in terms of who's in and who's out Pete was sort of talking about who's in who's out there's a big cut here on income versus outcome and there's going to be a big division over who's in it for the money and who's in it for the benefit right and they don't have to be separate but if they aren't integrated we've got a problem because it's going to be competing slash conflicting interests and this is coming up in other groups as well and one of the traumas we have to address is that around money and those that do have it those that don't have it those that can survive without it those that still need lots but if if the whole of the energy is being subverted towards somebody's private funding scheme as opposed to everybody's collective benefit then we're going to have beard odds in terms of how we move forward so my suggestion would be some sort of system ethical meta constitution process these are the rules that we have agreed at the start for how we will agree the rules and within these rules we're now doing our best to develop the system to make this work and OGM can be a tool in helping us to do that as well and in the brain cancer work I was involved with things like we the people undersigned recognize these as universal harms brain cancer can affect anybody you know these are the medications we need to investigate alternative technologies and medicines etc and because we believe that this is how we will act and so in this case summing up what I've heard in multiple conversations because we recognize the need for diversity because we recognize earth's in a shitty mess because we realize we've got some agency and what we do about this because we can come together as a group this is how we will operate and with something like that you can then say and now how do we answer these questions but I'd take it to the high level and come down to transcend to then include rather than say let's get everybody on the conversation and try and decide how high to go because it's going to be lowest common denominator so that's just my my sense thank you and I think we'll circle back to this as we touch the questions and as we go back into it um Charles did I get you go ahead Charles did you have your hand up okay so Charles and Bill something quick just Judy Judy and Neo probably covered most of of what we want perhaps in the invitation in the kind of you know Judy use the word hook what's the hook and then I thought about you know I mean to use a crass term marketing you know what's the what's the description basically for the invitation for the for the onboarding back to the onboarding theme and actually it was really rich what was just recorded thankfully and transcribed and so I think we can basically lift it wholesale largely and edited a little bit from the transcript and we'd be pretty good over sounds great thanks Bill I feel like there's two related metaproblems going on here over the last few months I I sort of stopped coming to calls for a while and I'm impatient and I and it seems crazy to me that this organization which is not an organization is what I would call in the wanking phase six months after creation um and I feel like a lot of the discussion about process and roles and all sorts of stuff is really hard to do in a vacuum and it's all cart before the horse kind of thing and I think it's I think what we need is to have a process that leads to some forward energy that makes change of some kind whether that is whatever it is and I feel related to that that this group was started by essentially a core group of people who probably have a lot of alignment of what they envision you and some of the consultant type folks it felt like there were like three people that were sort of like a core nub of this group and I think you should just stand up and take some fucking ownership and and sort of push things forward and then see if you get pushed back but to essentially use positive directed energy in a specific way to say even if it's about like having a workshop that's focused on you know a belief of mechanisms towards progress and hey three of us think that if we make these things and if this happens and then these other things happen that that will help this big thing happen which is about something real and let people then maybe argue with that process or whatever but I feel like there has to be some nuggets of action that affects the outside world and I think that solves or leads to solution of all the meta stuff that we get wrapped up in because I think like the discussion about who wants to be involved well what is there to be involved in like we've got a discussion board that's discussions but does the world really need another one of those I don't think so so I feel like you know everybody's looking for direction kind of thing and and I just feel like you know it has to come this is where my whole bias towards action comes in and I feel like in the absence of that despite all the discussions of codes of conduct any group without external feedback from the real world is bound to become pathological and so the urgency the first order of business is some sort of process that very quickly creates some definition of the intent for forward action and interaction with the outside world in a meaningful way which is not just discussing with other groups but again what does that lead to and and just sort of like knock it down and I'm going on too far and sort of circling back but but I feel like even this last 15 minutes has been all talking about the wrong thing so let's run I'd like to pause for 30 seconds so we can absorb what Bill just said then I'd like to answer briefly then Judy I'll pass it to you. Bill thank you for what you said a lot and I this despite everything my track recorders show I have a bias for action too I just love getting shit done that matters that pushes on something that tips something over that helps somebody that's like I'm all in on that and you're right this thing exists because Peter van introduced me to Hamilton from connective next to introduce me to Matt Matt and I had a couple conversations where this thing just sort of took off the four of us just three connective next guys and me started meeting regularly to talk about this then we're like this could be bitter and then we opened it up and started inviting people in I said why don't we just turn the Thursday morning calls which which we were having just the four of us into an open thing and that turns into this in the meantime Hamilton who does bizdev for connective next to him and Matt who who founded it have pitched at least three different projects that would have been ogemi projects that would have employed ogem people all three of which have bonked like none of these has actually landed and they would have been like one of them would have been huge with a with a company everybody would recognize that'd be super interesting that would not only probably employ a few people in this community but also feed the commons meaning they might actually fund a pool part of my my my notion here is to create a reservoir of funds with which we can fund some fellows just for lack of a better word who could then not worry about the rent and you know getting food and contribute to what this is so if any of those had landed we would have had something I think that would have met your criteria really really well bill I had a conversation I had a short sort of consulting session this Monday with a group that's working with a transnational nonprofit that everybody would recognize that got really interested and they loved my brain and I pitched I've sort of talked a lot about ogem and if that turns into something larger that'll turn into a completely concrete thing that in fact has to do with global development that I think would appeal to a whole ton of us in different ways and so so kind of behind the scenes as we're sitting here ranking I think behind the scenes we're sort of like trying to to catch a bore and put the bore on the table and say okay we got a bore we got a bore like let's do something with the bore but we're not saying enough about that in the group and and then also we have a bunch of really really brilliant systems thinkers who would like to create the framework that works for for this whole thing and then we have also attracted a bunch of like this smells really good but I just want to go do something right now and we're not creating enough things that we can do right now and I'll just finish by saying and one thing we could do right now is be of service to diverse communities that really could use some help which would increase our diversity while building something we need while feeding our souls for this this need need for action so I'm thinking that that might be a really good thing to try to do early is to try to be of service to others Joe welcome to the call uh Judy over to you and for Romer and Joe I don't know if you saw the link to the google doc that I put earlier so I'm going to paste it again in the chat Judy it's your your floor I just wanted to say Bill that I share your passion for action and the folks who've been listening during the meandering of a couple months have been hearing me constantly say when are we going to do an experiment when are we going to try something because that's where we get the feedback I think that that dynamic tension between the thought process and the execution is part of what we're framing here today so your comments are very much spot on and I agree with Jerry that the process of doing that will tell us to what extent the types of things we're creating are useful and and how to help civilization and I you said in the biggest sense because I think we're looking this is a room full of big thinkers who want to try to figure out how to fix big problems in an effective way and that means not starting at the top of some hierarchical system that may not be the right process at all but getting the infrastructure in place for continuous learning in a lot of different settings and so I think there's an important truth in what you said Bill about this tension between the ideation and the execution and I just want to support that as something that we build in very early because I think that that's what's going to help us frame a concept that becomes useful which then allows a lot of value to derive to either contributors or to an infrastructure of foundation or something that would enable the continuation of this that then deals with a lot of the nitty-gritty of how you dispense necessary monies as needed. Neil and then others who have thoughts about what Bill said. Yeah just added that thanks Bill and thanks Judith. This is exactly the example I'm talking about in terms of vertical differentiation because we are doing work here right now you know the question is when you get a when you get a project how do you decide that that is your priority so in triple loop learning you learn am I doing the right things right secondly am I sorry first am I doing things right second am I doing the right things third how do I decide the right things and the existential loop is how do I decide the right things with a tool and with this collective of powerful players how do we decide the right things so to me there's an opportunity here for a project to include the framing not just the getting of the money right if there's a project on the table how do we demonstrate we can actually do it which is where I presume that the you know checking out my collective necks and others to try and find projects would demonstrate by example what we're capable of but I imagine of the whole set of projects that might come on the table we should also have some criteria for how we decide whether or not we ought to help them which is an ethical question is this the biggest priority for me right now so if somebody came along today and said all the energy of OGM is going to go into this little tiny project which I don't see any value of I'd be saying well what am I here for so I think there's a need for a vertical differentiation and for a mechanism for how we compensate those who are creating the space and the envelope for those projects to be born in as well as for those who find the projects and get the money from them and this is a commons based peer to peer based how do we what are the principles we hold true to enable the birthing of what wants to be born in these difficult dangerous critical times so that's what I'm looking for how do we get the highest possible outcome not just the highest possible income and if we can get some connection between those two and mutual recognition and reciprocity between those doing and creating the space for it then I think we've got somewhere however when I pose the big questions in discourse I've got very limited interaction when we pose the small questions there's very limited interaction because we don't have a nucleus yet we can hang all of us on so let's define multiple planes which we can operate and be mutually respectful of different planes of operating on and unfortunately in my experience most of the time the people that can win the money and do the projects are held up as the heroes and the ones that create the space for that more conscious aware systems thinkers creating the space for new markets whether innovators whatever get screwed in the process so you need some sort of reciprocal mechanism for feeding the center which I think what you were talking about Jerry how do we get something to come back from whatever is being earned in a way that supports those capable of going further faster to do so on behalf of those that will come through and implement the projects I think we can hold all of that because we have the capacity whether or not we choose to do that is up to its group yeah and I have a feeling that there's a spirit of let's address some of those ethical issues and structural principled issues as they arise as we start doing stuff in the world so somebody's going to propose let's make a better form of nitroglycerin and it'd be like whoa whoa whoa whoa like like now let's pin that on the larger board of why we do and don't do certain different kinds of things so so basically how might so I think that there's a few people who are deeply interested in building the larger the larger ethical framework and and sort of structural framework and and and they should be in that vertical part of the stack and go go like flesh that out and bring it back and we should reward them for that effort but there's a a bunch of people who are like can we just put those those puzzle pieces into that puzzle as we hit the puzzle pieces by doing stuff on the ground right and I think that will actually inform a lot of what we're trying to do and then briefly before I go to Judy again I put in the chat sort of syncretism and having a smart membrane by which I meant this is part of my answer to how do we relate to other groups there are a whole bunch of really interesting groups out there doing fabulous work whether it's theory you or what have you there I collect them there's hundreds of them I'm really interested in us being sort of syncretistic I'm not even sure how you conjugate that but basically absorbent to different kinds of process without becoming a holocracy shop ourselves but but being useful to them permeable to them taking the best of what they do and integrating it into our framework of how we work and then being contagious meaning if we do this right we wind up being a very inclusive contagious process that can infect organizations to start thinking differently about their commons thinking differently about the principles of how they operate and and like we can become an actual functional organization which we're far from being at this point that is modeling the kinds of behaviors we'd like to do while as it designs the new memory the new shared memory as it does other kinds of things so Judy then duck well I was just going to say that I love the discussion but I don't want to get buried in it the dimensions between the gestation and ideation and the execution are cyclical and so I don't know that people stay in one place even if you think of the organization in different tiers of function and roles because the people who have an idea will want to pursue the idea and the people who are doing the idea will want to feed it back into the thought process and so I think we're talking something that's really dynamic and that's part of our construct that we want to capture as we define how we want to operate yep thank you Doug oh you're muted as always okay uh to me what characterizes this group is heart it's people who have a lot of feeling and I think when it comes to logic we're not so terrific when it comes to political process maybe we're not so terrific in comparison to heart and here's a group that's kind of been extruded from the silicon valley culture with a lot of understanding about technology and it seems to me that the heart question is what the world needs in a lot of places and what we should be thinking about is how to introduce our heart back into the technology world and create a deeper sense of humanity so that's my first thought and so that would go under and I'd like to turn our attention to the google doc so we can actually sort of riff on it while we're here because we have 20 more minutes that would go under like what is one of the best things that we could do with ogm that'd be a fabulous answer there and Doug did you see the link to the google doc are you in there okay good no i'm not in there yet but i see it okay and what i wanted to do was was collect up exactly the kind of response you just gave in that shared doc so we can share that back to the larger ogm group and move this conversation forward judy no i didn't have my hand up i had so i was just curious um i mean i wish matt was here but because i think he's going to be leading the workshop um but i guess he couldn't be or and and given the short time today on the call maybe we can or maybe that's really the document is is just exactly for the workshop but we didn't really talk about this workshop in a couple weeks and maybe that's something we can do so let me do that um so i mentioned in the email invite to this call that matt the last call kept going so i i had to get off the call and then pete ping me and said hey we're still docking and the call actually lasted three hours um and i jumped back in toward the end and what happened was matt was proposing hey let's actually just like try to sort these things out together and let's run a workshop so matt and his team are now designing a five-hour workshop on the 29th and we're trying to figure out sort of the marching the structure for it and and so forth uh that would let us sit down and talk through some of these kinds of issues the reason i created this call was in order it's the first step of the workshop they're thinking about is having everybody sort of individually work on designs for ogm i'm like we haven't turned the soil enough together actively to figure out like to have unison to have a sense of resonance on what that is so i figured i would create a small sequence of calls just like this and make them short and sharp and record them and put them out so that anybody could watch them later in the whole group but let's let's start creating some resonance by beating on this thing together in a little bit rhythmic way so there'll be more of these calls and the reason that nobody from collective nexus on here is that i just sent the invite yesterday and they've all got work to do so they weren't able to fit this in their schedule so that's the goal and i and i want to have more of these kinds of calls so i'll set a couple up for next week where we can come back to this and hopefully the google doc that i shared becomes a persistent document across these conversations and feeds into the process and whatever else we do does as well if that makes sense uh thank you just just to to respond briefly first of all next week i'll have my my kids all week on the holiday so i'll probably get to chime in but not consistently or reliably unfortunately but i look forward to the recordings and then in terms of this workshop design is that necessarily in a kind of black box or can if some of us are called have time to co-create is that appropriate to to even ask me to sort of you know i think it's totally appropriate to ask i think pink mat pink mat and hank and uh just say just say we'd love to help design the workshop there'll be like totally after that and romer you you sort of asked the question that triggered this event happening i'd love to just give you the floor and let you roam on how you think about how you think about this and what you wish would happen uh you were still muted there we go yes okay sorry i'm using my iphone here uh well um thank you for this opportunity jerry and i really appreciate uh you know the time to be able to express myself here as a newbie and uh i'm echoing a dog's statement here in terms of the heart and i'm also echoing some of your comments here in terms of a certain level of alignment and i guess from my point of view uh what am i missing is where do i align in terms of values of uh uh that we are looking at for ogm and i think this is very important to uh define collectively the vision and the values so that you know in every step of the way whenever we have a certain level of dissonance or disagreement we have this uh uh uh defined uh centering we have this ability to center ourselves on what is really important for all of us and uh from my endpoint in terms of actions it's without a clear view of the vision and the values that i'm going to be adhering into it's going to be very hard for me to uh to really provide further actions because of the fact that there's not much clarity so uh moving forward i really look forward to um gaining more clarity in terms of what are these three things what are our visions what are our values and how do we um work together in order to make things happen so that's just my a few cents here and thank you you know thank you and having some clarity on that would be super useful and i think we're kind of on that road too uh could i maybe propose an even more sharp uh version of that which is um something that i want to share just as a kind of newcomer uh to this group well quite a newcomer to this group um i found that uh there's a real difference let's say between values and opinions and i think we should be really careful if we sharpen up and clarify what the values are to also explain the relationship to opinions because um i find it kind of difficult if i see people sharing things that they they that is their opinion uh but they're sharing it in a way that that requires my buy-in to that opinion and i just don't have that that doesn't mean that i might not share values with that person um but i think that those that level of hierarchy is really important and so i i fear that as a result i've come across as a very contrarian and negative person because i try to shoot down every opinion that i see um but that's not because i i don't share some of the values um so i i think that for me open global mind might be something where you actually have this values uh quite clarified but maybe takes a somewhat deflationary attitude towards opinions but that's just an opinion that's just a possible opinion so i i don't know i don't know how that shakes up but i just wanted to raise that other level of the hierarchy so so joe you've raised a really great question and i'm clearly expressing an opinion here um and i would love it if there were people with very opposing opinions in this group and diversity also means diversity of point of view and one of the really important goals of ogm in my head is how to bridge the cultural divide how to actually have reasonable conversations around very difficult issues that are splitting the whole world apart that that to me is top-dead center for what ogm could achieve if we do this right we could we could sort of pierce that could you elaborate a little bit more just with an example or with whatever about what you mean by differentiating between values and opinions i think i follow you but i'd love to see how this lives in your life what what yeah sure why don't i then make it an example about me just to say like you know maybe 20 years ago i was very idealistic about free software i thought free software and open source was the way to go now here i am i'm 40 i'm here on a zoom call granted i've got zoom running on my abuntu but i i'm very open-minded about look let's use the current technologies let's uh it's not about free software versus the rest of the world it's about being pragmatic and getting things done so um i would say that that uh my i would i would spike opinions i would say do we really need to have be using free software for everything no even richard stallman would agree with that actually so um so let's spike this opinion that free software is the only way to go however let's look at the values that free software brings to us and why open sharing copy left what the what the what the things that those contribute are and those are harder questions just saying this is better or this is right those are interesting questions and so those questions would then be worthy i think of elaboration but those aren't going to be one those aren't debates those are discussions so killing off the debates and enlivening the discussion would be how it might play out thank you and then it's funny you're reminding me yesterday i had a call i hadn't talked to this guy for three four or five months maybe through all of lockdown his name is rome viharo and he has a method for uh he has a kind of an algorithm that helps create consensus among people with you know different opinions and it's quite or or nate and his his framing for it is like confusing but there's a pony there and i know there's a pony there that's like how do i how do we host how do we host him improving his project in the middle of this because it would help create what you're i think looking for in some way it would be a component of a solution like that uh charles um maybe i'm just kind of skimming in my listening but um in all this kind of talk about values and conversation and and like we we have conversation down i think aside from heart we we for sure you know we all have a lot of conversations um anyway i do but how to bridge that into the action i think and that maybe points back to to um some of the tech solutions and and and other things um i think i just wanted to underscore you know all the talk is great but but yeah we have stuff to do and so how to actually you know get get from the talking to the doing that's that what's the actual bridge in detail i think a question that i didn't ask on the dock is what does what would what would satisfactory doing look like to you like what is a project you would like to see ogm achieve that's a question that actually should be number two probably your number one um uh because i just go it there's a whole bunch of us who really care about that and that's not explicit in in the document and and if we know what six people think doing looks like then we can say who wants to join this person to go do that thing and that and then anybody who's doing anything related to ogm here's how to report back to us here's how to here's how to maintain status here's how to keep visibility with us which becomes a part of our marching orders into the different vertical parts of the stack that meal is talking about which feeds the process which the one and so forth uh Charles then Judy so just to finish off because actually i can wrap wrap this up in a nice little bundle pointing to Joe Connelly and the pedagogy folks in the rap pattern which Lauren and i sort of aspire to doing it more intentionally and with more focus but i think it really points to the knowledge repository in whatever forms whatever we want to call it and that's a two-in-one for me that's a project i'm i'm riveted to get involved in or be be more involved in um and that's also the bridge actually i think that's really the heart of of where the conversation meets the road so let's put that in the document and uh Joe if you want to talk a little about the about the knowledge repository and also and i'll come back to you after Judy but i'll also add that the pedagogy handbook i i met Howard Reingold when i was writing for Esther Dyson and i wrote about online community and he was just publishing his book virtual community and i had seen him on the well because i was the well was one of my early places online and we sort of met and i wrote about it i quoted him i think in the first paragraph of the issues that i wrote and have been following him ever since and all of the stuff that's gonna have been a guest in his classroom at Berkeley and stuff like that but all of the stuff has come out of pedagogy i'm just dying to instrument implement liberate make useful in the world i think that would be a phenomenal thing and i think that would be a tremendously congruent project between what pedagogy seems to be seems to be trying to do because i haven't been in those conversations and what i think we're trying to do um does that is that a go ahead go ahead charles sorry to side interrupt just to breaking news that how would actually confirm to to join kiko lab on the 19th of october that's a monday two mondays from now and that will be kind of two subjects one on the early co-learning um a bit of a overview and then kind of dovetailing into crap detection but first kind of looking at what does it mean for crap detection for kids these days and then going into more of like leading up to the election crap detection type stuff so how would ryan go kiko lab monday the 19th of october and you'll put the invitation on the ogm list i assume um and joe does that smell right and if not in what way doesn't it then over to judy well i guess we covered quite a lot in that it was like a paragraph or something but um yeah put let me put what i just read out what i said here in the item six on the google doc i just said that um you know my skills are such that i have a phd and something called knowledge media so i could take on a role a bit like technologist digital librarian and charles and i've talked about what would look like to reboot the whole earth catalog i think that's what we talked about i can't remember we were talking about um maybe we were talking about the uh co-evolutionary quarterly but you know that they're the related documents i should i should rewind that so what would it look like and yeah howard was involved with the latest i think edition of the whole earth catalog so we could definitely pick his brain about how to make a contemporary whole earth catalog um and that would be an example of this kind of knowledge repository so yes that's something i could contribute to and and we've talked about it um in terms of how yeah so pure gaji releases everything under the cc zero license which is the most open license that's not enough what we also try to do is like help people find ways in and teach and share knowledge but how to engage with uh material reality um so just licensing is not enough uh we have a bit of a roadmap ahead both through version four and version five of the pure gaji handbook um so i can share those i think i've put them online to some extent those are still developing so so for anyone who wants to get involved with version four that's work in progress and version five is right now a vision um but yeah those things can be discussed with fortune version five lives in ogm like land of some sort and we can be like that can be a thing that we can help build cool yeah um judy i was just thinking that one of one of the options would be to have a space within our context where people just put in what they're working on and we don't spend so much time on check on and what they're working on but it becomes a repository of active projects and others can look at that and say oh i should call joe i'd like to work with him on this or i could call neil and i work with him on that so my in-process rework of the ogm website which i've just sort of stalled on has a google doc with different project ideas and where they are the idea being there's an embedded page where we can all go update what's happening with each of the projects in an attempt to create visibility it's probably the stupidest way to do that but it's it's an attempt at the start of that so what i want to do is like finish and publish the damn thing so that anybody else can jump in it's a google site so anybody could edit it and improve it and and sort of run with that we have five minutes left because i'd like to end at the top of the hour to be completely uncharacteristic of ogm calls um who would like to chime in on where we are how you're feeling um we we did not step through the questions i've put on the google doc but many of you who contributed tremendous things to it so let's do that asynchronously between calls and then we'll come back with that google doc at the next call so i'll book a call for a monday or tuesday next week um separate from our thursday call these these are separate calls from the thursday calls we're still holding the thursday calls last sort of wrapping thoughts and you don't have to say them in rap oh come on everybody's satisfied like this this totally hit everybody's golden buzzer it's much more on point than you will island but um mike can you say that again this is mike uh i've been very silent been juggling a couple things but um this conversation is very very similar to what i'm having with another group of visionaries almost exactly the same conversation is how do you combine the great insights and minds are here and i i would argue that rather than trying to hit on one problem or one topic maybe this group could provide guidelines and and advice on how other groups like this could do something brilliant particularly figure out how to go forward in the future on on other projects you know just giving people sort of the meta what how do you think about the future how do you think about having heart as was said so well and applying that to the big problems we face so we're trying to do it carnage but uh i have to say i'm surrounded by people who see the world as a series of worst-case scenarios even though international peace is our name avoiding global catastrophe is sort of our our theme we're driving the truck toward the cliff right now so yeah yeah well right before this i was listening to the nuclear threat initiative which had an incredible talk that sounds heartening well they're sort of a an allied group but um toby ord ord has just written the precipice which is a very daunting book about what could come but i think somebody has to write the opposite you know what's the opposite of a catastrophe that you know a runaway success that you know solved half of our problems on a global basis you know what how could we do that and how could we help people think about that radical future how could we get people to work together i mean the most and again to keep out the naysayers or the the people who just tell you about the obstacles or how to how to flip naysayers to being productive co-creators neil then terrell's and we're out of the call thanks for that mike i don't have the exact quote in front of me but buckminster fuller's famous quote about turning weaponry into livingry and making the world work for 100 of humanity in the shortest possible time given we have the technology and the capability to do that something like that as a vision statement for ogm uh isn't impossible to imagine for me and the question then is at what level we're operating within that um and so if you want it to go for a big positive step forward secondly the final thing on on on your point is how do we demonstrate to others how to do it if we can't do it ourselves yet and so we've got to find principles and processes that work for us even though we're very good uh in these conversations because we're not getting into action because we're not deciding priorities because we're not doing things or controversially challenging each other on these things we can't really claim to be actually doing it yet so i think we can apply ourselves to others but we need to look internally first which is why i've been suggesting some sort of meta-constitutional framework for how we co-agree the rules simultaneously if necessary with projects that hit the ground the diagram that i've put into the things try to say how do we get that toroidal effect feeding in from the roots dropping down into things and feeding all of those that are in the trunk that are helping the flows um to me it's not impossible and if this group can't do it maybe it is um i like that last note for some strange reason um Charles uh i'm probably said this here before um or in this group it's a phrase that came to me i don't know a few years ago is get get it together to get together um i want to thank bill in particular for the tough love and maybe just um on behalf of everyone ask for some compassion because a lot of us have been doing a lot and even getting together in in smaller huddles and really doing a lot and it's never enough you know so that's it um i really appreciate that and i thank you all uh namaste and i mean that from my my mere understanding of the word um and see y'all very shortly see online online go back to the document fill it out and uh yeah exactly keep working on the document i'll set up another call like this thank you great call people thank you