 Think Tech Away, civil engagement lives here. Welcome to the Asian Review. I'm your host Bill Sharp. Our show today, Pantry and Reform, adversely impacts the Taiwan military. And joining us via Skype from Galshung in southern Taiwan is retired Republic of China Navy Admiral Lawrence Tan. He had a very distinguished naval career. He served as the head of the Defense Attaché Office of the Taiwan Embassy in Washington. He additionally had a long career in anti-submarine warfare, which also included mine warfare. And he, as in his retired life, he's certainly keeping busy as he's studying for a PhD degree at Sonya Tsang University in Galshung, focused on U.S.-China relations. Previous to that, he got a master's degree at the U.S. Naval Postgraduate School. So we're very fortunate to have him with us. And welcome to Asian Review. It's great to have you. Yeah, it's my pleasure to be here. That's great. That's great. Well, let's get right into it. Pension reform. Of course, Saiyuan realizes that the pension system in Taiwan, if something's not done, it's going to go broke. But her reforms have really stirred up a lot of political animosity, especially in the military. And there have been so big demonstrations in Taipei. I believe there was one Army colonel who was actually killed in one of the demonstrations. So what's going on? Well, actually, talk about the pension reform. The veterans, they're never against the pension reform because it is really a financial crisis that I just mentioned. However, what caused the crisis? Because the pension reform is not happening in any country. But in the U.S., there is a pension reform, but it only changes better and better. But now the pension reform in Taiwan is going to cut your pension. So if we go back to the 1950s, there were over 700,000 military. And now there's only less than 200,000. So there are a lot of big number cuts in the military. But during the cutting process, the government didn't prepare any major to mend the vacancies of what is going to pay for the pension of the veterans. So the government didn't do their job. So why did the veterans fail? Why should we punish? Because if the government fought, we didn't do any fault. However, the veterans, they understand that it's going to pangrass, so face the truth. They supported the reform, but they opposed the way how the DPP government put forward the pension reform. That is the real problem. Because— Let's stop right there. Now, what was the problem with the way that the DPP government put forward the pension reform? Well, you know, there's a lot of reform, not only for the pension, for the military, but also the reform for the labor and for the government worker, the government employee. But the government tried to divide the labor, and more than 10 million labor, that means more than 10 million votes, which traditionally support the DPP government. And the military and the government workers had only 870,000, and most of them support the KMT. So that's not exactly the number, but this is just a regular phenomenon in Taiwan. So that reform put a lot of political contact in the process. And why is it the veterans so opposed to the reform? Because the DPP government, they take the wrong step at the very beginning. So you call it a financial crisis. So this is a financial issue. But the DPP operated to the social issue. There's a pension reform committee, and most members of that committee is social worker or actually social activist. And the leader is actually a professor of social work. So they're more focused on the social justice. So what they're doing is just the amount of generation and the justice of distribution. That caused the pension reform to actually become a pension redistribution. So what is it doing? Let me jump in here, because there's a couple of things I think we need to clarify. This is a very confusing issue. And some of our listeners might not be all that familiar with it. Did I understand you right that Sai Wen is using this pension reform to help the workers, the blue collar workers of Taiwan, and sort of discriminating against the military? Did I understand that right? Well, I'm not saying she intentionally to do that, but there's a lot of political context in this kind of action when she put for the reform. Can I just mention that because the first one is going to have a bankruptcy problem is labor insurance. That will happen in the next 10 years. And the pension for the military and the government employees, that will happen in 15 years from now. So the labor reform has to be the first priority. But the government is doing the pension reform on the military and the government employees. So it's kind of a weird thing for everybody who believes that most of the labor they are more supported through the DPP and most of the military that supports the blue. So there is political ramifications. I still have to clarify the pension reform we have to do it because phase two it's going to bankrupt. But however, there's a lot of political content in it that makes the veteran feel very uncomfortable. You know, this is really very interesting because my understanding has been that Sai Wen, when she took office, she, the first month, few months she was in office, she visited all, so many military bases in Taiwan. She visited the Army Academy, the Military Academy in Fengshan, Gaoshuang, your hometown, made a very big presence there, really wants to boost up the national defense industry. Says she's going to increase the national defense budget to 3% of GDP, something the US has been after for a long time. Right. And my impression was that she was reasonably popular with the military. But now, what I'm hearing from you is maybe she's not. Now, you know, what China, when they're doing now, it's actually what the president of the Republic of China should do, but what he had done when he was a candidate, when he was a chairman of the DPP, it's totally different. You know, when he was, when he was running for the president of the campaign, the DPP, they just tolerate her party members to humiliate the military. So just, yeah, just two examples. You probably know one Apache pilot. He's so proud of his job and he invited his personal friend to visit the Apache helicopter. Oh, I remember that. Yeah. And those people took photo on a helicopter and a celebrity and rich people and one of them even a movie star. So DPP very successfully to foster animus fear of relative deprivation among ordinary people and they, they argue why those people have the privilege. They have a special right to visit Apache, but we don't. So that become a terminal in the last four months. And finally that pilot would, would try for the martial court. And the other example would be, there's a white soldier who died of his throat during a correction training. Uh, yeah. Corporal Hong, Corporal Hong, right? Yeah. Yeah. And Taiwan led the demonstration against the military. And at the result, the defendants have stepped down and all of the court martial lifted from the military. And since then all of the military crime would go to the civil court. So that really hurt, you know, cause damage to the military. And that even become a, a habitual action to humiliate the military. Even after Taiwan became the president. There was, there was an example that only three weeks after she become the president and one woman is pro-independence is so exciting. And openly to shout at an old veteran says, you are a Chinese refugee. You get out of Taiwan. We don't want you to be here. And she took video and, and uploaded to the internet. This is, this is a really important point that you're hitting on here, I think, because it's obvious, I think that from, for anyone that observes Taiwan military affairs, political affairs, there's still tension between the military and the population. And I think it's fair to say in the past and the days of martial law, the military did a few things that probably shouldn't have done. And people remember the Taiwan Garrison Command, but that's in the past. But a lot of people don't forget that kind of thing. It's very easy. And it makes it very difficult for today's military. Yeah, that's really the good, because that's really a bad, bad impression to the military in the past. But after Jiang Jinguo became the president, he tried to naturalize the military. Because in Chinese, the ROC on board in China is called Guo Jun. Guo Jun, you actually have two meanings. One is a nationalist army and the other is a national army. Right. So when you talk about a nationalist army, it was built by Chiang Kai-shek or the KMT. Actually, it was the KMT army. Right. So the Sibu War, the China Sibu War actually is a war between the nationalists and the communists. So after Jiang Jinguo became the president, he wanted to naturalize the national army by stop all KMT activity in the military. So since Jiang Jinguo's military already naturalized, so when you talk about the martial law, that's really in the past. Right. But after Jiang Jinguo became the president, he did a lot of effort to make the ASEAN for a real national forces instead of the nationalist forces. However, that bad image still there in the older generation. Right. But the younger nation, they were taught by the old generation about the bad history. So this is just kind of a bad image existed. That's true. So the military really want to make their image better. However, the DPP, they want to get the power. So during the campaign, the military became a very cheap target. So they take the path and humiliate the military to try to get support from the general public. And that helped DPP to win the power. Well, this is a major reason for DPP that they became the ruling party right now. You know, this is really from the perspective of the U.S. government. Of course, I'm not an official of the U.S. government, but I certainly talk to a lot of U.S. government officials. And of course, they're worried about the conscription system in Taiwan. They're worried about the reserve system. And because of this sort of leftover bad feeling, it really hurts the conscription system, or I shouldn't say conscription, I should say the volunteer system, because Taiwan is really challenged to get an adequate number of volunteers. And I think it also impacts the reserve system, which a lot of people, I think in Taiwan and in Washington, are not too happy with. Yeah. Well, actually, you talked about all our volunteers. They also have a close relation with the military in it. Right. You know, after Taiwan became the president, he really did very hard to mend the relationship that already damaged during the presidential campaign. Right. So when he goes to the military post, he always reminds everyone that I am the commander in chief. I will take care of you. You can count on me. I am your backing. I will share the honor and shame with all of you. Well, it's all very nice work, but I'm not actually doing it right now. I'm not at a thing. I don't know how those people, when they hear the speech from Taiwan, how much credit they will take. However, the dam is really there. So Taiwan works so hard, but it's very hard to mend the relationship that damaged in the past. So that's also a major reason for young people, they don't want to join the military. Right. Because the military have a relative, you know, the bad image in the society compared with the other occupations. That's my understanding, too. Well, let me ask you this. This might be kind of an interesting, maybe a little sensitive point, but let's try this anyway. When you were going to the Naval Academy, you had to be a member of the Nationalist Party, correct? No, no, afterwards. Afterwards? Yeah, afterwards. When I became an officer. When you became an officer. Yeah. And in those days, I'm not exactly sure when you graduated, but I'm just going to sort of guess here. When you graduated, you had to become a member of the Nationalist Party. And in those days, there was no DPP. And what do I want to say here? Okay. So it was like the party controlled the military. The military's loyalty wasn't necessarily to the country, it was to the party. Is that correct? Well, actually, that was in the authoritarian era when the Guomintang had only one party in Taiwan. Right. It's just very similar like the Communist Party right now. But after Taiwan... I was getting there. Yeah, yeah. After Taiwan, democracy is not a problem at all. I just mentioned, after Jiang Jinguo became the president, he stopped all the KMT activity in the military. So I remember the last time I attended the KMT activity was when I was a lieutenant or lieutenant junior grade that's 35 years ago. So at least 35 years ago, there was no more KMT activity in the military. So... I'm the example. In these days, the military is loyal to the country, not to any party. No, not to any party because the military already naturalized and thanks to the effort of President Jiang Jinguo. Very interesting point. I think this is a good place for us to take a break. You're watching Asian Review. I'm your host, Bill Sharp. My guest today is retired Taiwan Admiral Laurence Donne. We're having a great discussion about pension reform and Taiwan military pension reform and how it impacts the military. We'll be right back. Don't go away. I'm Ethan Allen, host of Likeable Science on Think Tech Hawaii. Every Friday afternoon at 2 p.m., I hope you'll join me for Likeable Science, where we'll dig into science, dig into the meat of science, dig into the joy and delight of science. We'll discover why science is indeed fun, why science is interesting, why people should care about science and care about the research that's being done out there. It's all great. It's all entertaining. It's all educational. So I hope you'll join me for Likeable Science. Welcome back to Asian Review. I'm your host, Bill Sharp. Our show today is a pension reform and it adversely affects the Taiwan military. And my guest is a retired Republican China Admiral, Larry Donne. He has a really very, he had a very, very distinguished career. He was head of the Defense Attache Office at the Republic of China Embassy in Washington. He also had a very extensive career in undersea warfare, mine warfare, et cetera. And right now, in addition to a master's degree, he got a Naval, U.S. Naval Postgraduate School. He's studying for a Ph.D. at Sun Yat San University. Welcome back. Well, let's move on now to this question about Taiwan's will to fight. Now, whenever I go to Paycom, and Paycom occasionally invites me up there to give a lecture about one thing or the other, and the question always comes up, what's Taiwan's will to fight? What's Taiwan's will to fight? There's some skepticism, I think, in Paycom. These are the folks I talked to about this. What's your take? The military issue is a political issue in Taiwan because there's no any country where the question is whether they're on for the have the will to fight. You know, in Taiwan, it's a kind of issue, not because China is so strong and hard to defeat it, but that issue was raised a couple years ago when some DPP member questioned whether they're on for to know what they are fighting for. That happened in 2011, and one three-star general or the fourth U.S. equivalent. He invited a bit of China, and in a banquet, he said both Nationalist Army and the Communist Army are both Chinese Army. But he was correct. You still have to mention Nationalist Army is also going to have two different millions of Nationalist Army that no longer exist. But when you talk about the Nationalist Army and Communist Army are both Chinese Army, the group can attack him that you are talking about the National Army stand with the Communists together and create a partnership in the war. So that's really the question of whether you know what you're fighting for. You are Taiwanese and you stand with the Chinese and say you are both Chinese Army. Okay, let me jump in here because you're hitting on something really interesting. In today's Taiwan military, what would the Taiwan military be fighting for? Well, that's also the good question. When you talk about the way to fight and fight for what? Fight for defending Taiwan for Taiwan security or fight for Taiwan independence? So that's the question. Many pro-Independent people, they also don't have a will to fight or they don't know what to fight for. It's from the Taiwan independence perspective because you are Taiwanese and you should fight with the Chinese. So it's a very controversial, it's a conflict between Taiwan. It's so polarized, so divided. An example, like, you know, Frank Higer. Frank Higer is of the US and the Republic of China fought together against Japan. Of World War II fame, right? Of the Frank Higer. Designed by Walt Disney. The Air Force 401 Wing is the successor of Frank Higer. So on the F-16, the Frank Higer emblem are on the F-16. So some people who pro-Independent, they said Frank Higer has nothing to do with Taiwan. Why you put a Chinese symbol onto your F-16? So as you see, a lot of people, where does the armed forces, obviously part of China know what are you fighting for because they are pro-Independent. Well, let me just interject this. It seems to me that the folks in the Taiwan military, it doesn't matter if it's Army, Navy, Air Force, Marines, Coast Guard, for that matter, they're all coming from Taiwan these days. They have less and less of a direct connection with China. Well, that's the history of the Frank Higer. It's from the Republic of China, when the Republic of China was in China, and it's a part of the history of the armed forces. So the pressure, they respect the history of the history. But the pro-Independent, they want to give it up every symbol concerning with China. So that is the problem. So all the armed forces, the country, they protect, by the constitution, is the Republic of China. Not the Republic of Taiwan that not existed. So that's become a gap of the accretation between those people, pro-Independent and the national military. So that is the question. When you talk about the will to fight, actually, as a soldier, a soldier is a killer machine. You should follow orders. You want to kill, you kill. You want to go to a potential place, you go. You want to die, you die. You just follow orders. So the will to fight is not an issue to the military. The question is how well he fights and how strong he is to persevere in the battlefield. Will to fight is not an issue. So the problem is the morale. The morale, there's several elements that constitute the morale. Whether, yeah. That's a good question, because what we're talking about now very much leads into morale. And some people would say that the morale in the Taiwan military is pretty low. It's, yeah. The military constitutes several elements. The confidence, whether you are confident of your, you have a better equipment. Whether you believe you have better training than the enemy, that you are confident to defeat your enemy. And whether you're supported and respected by the people. Whether there's brotherhood among the soldier and the mutual trust between the leadership and the soldier. So all of those elements constitute the morale. But actually that is the issue in Taiwan because those elements are facing the very serious challenge. So maybe that's caused some people to think they're low morale in the military because we have, we still use the off-leaf equipment and with training it's more, you know, some people would argue that the boot camp is like a summer camp. So they have training. And so humiliate the military. And now they cut the pension and didn't make the military feel they are proud to be the military. Exceptional with the others. So the supply of the military damage a lot because of divided society in Taiwan. You know, earlier you were talking about those apaches that Taiwan bought from the United States. And yeah, there was that flight officer that showed off the Apache and brought out his girlfriend and a movie star and all that. But you know what the way I saw that was they felt so proud to be getting such sophisticated aircraft. And I think the U.S. is the only other country that has that particular model of Apache. And as you just suggested, the equipment in the Taiwan military is somewhat vintage. And when they got those apaches, you know, first line, front line, I sense the swelling of pride. Yeah, it should be. You know, I was the commander. I was the CEO of the Lafayette Brigade. So I'm very proud to be the commander of the Lafayette Brigade. So I also invited my relatives, after the Apache incident, I feel I'm lucky because I'm not captain right now, or otherwise I would be accused of that sort of thing. So I mean, the military, they should be respected. They should be let and filled, they're exceptional. They're different with the other. So I'm very proud of my job. I want to show off. But it's because I'm proud of myself. I'm proud to be the military. But on the other hand, the Lafayette Brigade, they're proud. So that caught a great, you know, that really suffered a military heart. Well, let me ask you this question. Okay, I'm going to throw you a curveball question here, but we only have like a minute or a minute and a half left. Maybe it's a little unfair to throw this a question that you read at the end. If you could design an arms package of U.S. arms to be sold to Taiwan, what would be in that package? I'm not actively involved with the program, but a lot of packages that were delivered from the United States probably not requested by Taiwan or maybe Taiwan had been requested for years, and suddenly the United States would give you the package. For example, in 2001, the EP3 incident, and only after that incident, only in a week, Joe W. Bush wanted to sell four Kit Kats to Taiwan. And another week later, they're going to sell the Patriots missile and the submarine and the P3 aircraft. So that package suddenly got like a gift to Taiwan, but Taiwan is not prepared. But that was because the EP3 incident, and President Joe W. Bush wanted to show his tough attitude towards China. So Taiwan really, we had to withstand a lot of requests for our equipment, but we don't know when the U.S. was going to approve it. And an EP3 incident got a sudden gift from the sky to our hand that we have so big package of weapons, but we don't have that much money to have. So that caused a very struggle during 2002 to 2005 about the special budget issue. Right, right, right. Well, I think we're just about out of time here. But I want to thank you very much for joining us today. I think we had a great conversation. You mentioned some things that I think a lot of our listeners and others probably haven't thought about before, this kind of polarizing dynamic within the military and how it impacts the will to fight, et cetera. So I really want to thank you very, very much for joining me today. It's great to see you again. And I want to thank our audience for joining us. And we'll see you again back here next week, same time, some place. My guest next week will be Carl Baker from Pacific Forum. Carl is a longtime Korea expert. In fact, he's in South Korea right now. He's coming back on Sunday. He'll be here on Monday. He's going to be loaded with very fresh information. And of course, we all know what's going on in the Korean Peninsula. It's very tense. There was a meeting between the South Korean president and Kim Jong-un. There's a meeting, at least alleged, a hypothetical, at least a meeting between Kim and President Trump. So we'll see you here next week.