 Good afternoon. Welcome to Finding Happiness in Hard Times. My name is Ken Burtonus, and I'm coming to you from Holly Eva out at the North Shore. And today we're taping this show on Valentine's Day. So you can probably guess that we're going to be talking about love today. In fact, the title of the episode is called Love and Marriage. And to help me with that are my two really good friends and also the lovingest couple that I know of, Daniel Lev and Margie Walkover. Welcome to the show, guys. Hi. One of the things that I always ran into when I was counseling, doing marriage and family counseling was sometimes people got married and partnered up before they really knew each other. So I thought that that might be a good place to start today. So I'm going to start with asking Margie and Daniel how they met, got to know each other, and how they decided among themselves that, hey, we're going to make a great couple. Over to you guys. All righty, well, we kind of talked about how we would present. So I'm going to tell a shortened version of the story. I was getting close to 50 and just giving up on meeting a soulmate and then going through a divorce. So I was just living life as best I could. As I went to a wedding that was in a backyard. And a friend of mine, Marabi, he's a rabbi, he was facilitating. And I'm just walking around before the wedding starts. And there was a garden, a terrace garden in the back with steps. So I went up the steps just to take a look at it. And there was a bench there that the couple had put so they can look over their house at the bay. And who was standing in there? But this beautiful woman in an Indian outfit, the Halimah Shamis or whatever it's called. And she turned around and we started talking. I mean, she was setting it up for the couple after the weddings over the couple goes to a private place. And that's where she was setting up. Anyways, we just kind of get it off. It was nice. Then somebody came by and said, Margie, we need you at the door to greet people. And Margie, you know, interrupt me if I miss something. And so we went down there, continued our conversation. And long story short is I just kept stalking her throughout the party. I kept looking for her when we were apart and we talked a little. And by the end of the party, we kind of closed it down. It was just us and a couple people and exchanged numbers and went out and then that's how we met. Well, I have to say that I've known Daniel. Daniel was quite a figure in the community. And I knew him and I always thought he was a pretty cool guy, but he was always going out with other people. So when I saw that he was at the wedding, I thought, okay, because I was getting some helping to set up the wedding. And when he walked into the space, I thought, hey, this is great. So we talked and had a really good time. And actually I was the one who said, my next job is to go, you know, be the greeter at the front door. So I brought him with me and it really had a really great conversation. As I was greeting people and bringing them in, I talked to him about all kinds of things and I was thinking, this is really fun. And then again, as the wedding went on, we kept on kind of like noticing each other from across the wedding. And it was just really, it was really great. And I was thinking, oh, this is an interesting guy. I wonder what's going to happen. And it was on the 24th of May, 2003. And two things we would fall at the feet of the couple who invited us to the wedding because we so appreciated them bringing us together. They kissed their feet. They kissed their feet and said, thank you so much. But I would, and Margie would at times, at the 24th of every month would be like an anniversary. And a real anniversary. I'm sorry, the real anniversary is when we met as far as I'm concerned. Yes. You would kind of really met each other with a capital M. That's the best way I can put it is you don't know the person when you first meet them, but there was a depth of meaning and curiosity and openness and joy that immediately happened. But, you know, it takes time. It takes time. So maybe a month or so after that, getting to know her spending time, I was sure, but I wasn't sure. And then she was doing something that kind of bothered me. And I had a history with certain women that if I would tell them something that bothered me, they would like kill me. And so I decided, I wrote in the journal and said, I'm going to present this to her. And we sat on the front porch of the house she was living in. And I was practically trembling. I said, by the way, this is going on. This really bothers me. I'm getting ready for the hand. And she said, I'm so sorry, you know. Oh, no, no, well, let's see, you know, we can do it differently. And then I absolutely knew that this was the kind of person I want to be together with who was actually very reasonable in conversations, even when we have differences. Right. And so the ways are why I kind of fell for Daniels because he's amazing. For me, I mean, he's a musician and a storyteller and he's spiritual and he's a psychologist. So he understands people and he understands emotional geographies from a place of big hardness and strength. And he's tall and gorgeous. And I just love everything. I was curious about everything about him. And so two weeks, I was really happy I met this guy. But two weeks into the relationship, my mother died. And she was the last person to die in my family. I was 45, so I'd lost everybody. And I looked at Daniel and I said, you know, dating, we're not gonna date anymore because my life just fell apart. And what happened, and I think this was really telling, is that we met a second time then. We met in a way where it was very real, very raw and very authentic. And Daniel offered me space for to be in as a person who was grieving and a space to heal that changed my life. And it was so profound that I was thinking, you know, the angels in heaven must have sent him to me. I mean, how else could this have happened? So my thought is that what I would do is I would, once I kind of started to get through this event, I would give back to him the love that he gave me and then he would go off and find the love of his life. That would be my present back to him, you know, to show him how beautiful he was. Cause clearly- And I did. I found the love of my life. It's kind of our story. It's kind of been like that ever since in terms of seeing each other and offering spaces for us to love, to really be with each other from a state of love and joy, even when things are tough. We just enjoy each other. But, you know, you've got me right to the question I was going to ask because that's one of the things that couples have trouble with a lot is support. And the problem with support is we're so understanding of the support we're giving, but we don't see the support sometimes that the other person is giving to us. It's what I call the 60-40 rule. No matter how even the support is, you're going to think to yourself, well, I'm giving most of what's happening. I'm giving 60% and they're only giving 40. When clearly it could be 50-50. And that's what you're telling me is that with you it was clear that both of you were supporting each other and in equal amounts and with equal amount of love. And that really is amazing. Yeah, if you could, since I had that as a question, maybe you could give me some other examples of how you guys support each other. Cause I know you do because you're in different fields and you need to sort of cross over those fields to support each other. Maybe you could tell us a little bit about that. The psychology and the sociologist. Sorry, I just want to, yeah, you think, hey, how can we get along? But I just want to say one thing about support, which is the times that I've supported Margie were very supportive of me. That I felt very much, I had a person who I can really care for and take care of when she needed it and she accepted it, that's huge. And so anyways, well, I'll start the story of a big support. One thing that happened recently a couple of years ago is we came home and I was in the kitchen doing something and I heard a blood curdling scream come out of Margie's office. And I ran over there, she called me and I ran over there and she had fallen down, landed on her arm. You want to continue, baby? Oh, well, I fractured my shoulder in several places which I'd never broken a bone and it was a bit crazy. So basically what that started was, you know, it's interesting because I was the one that was in trouble but because we, it's a we, we're together, it was really in a way, it was about both of us. And so Daniel was amazing in providing and working with me to figure out what to do to get the kind of help I needed and get me to the emergency room. And it took, I lost the full, I lost the use of this arm in this hand for 10 months. I was in a huge amount of pain. And I needed to figure out step by step what to do to do the self healing and find providers that were great. And so the deal was that Daniel was, Daniel basically took over our household. He did all the dishes. He dressed me in the morning, he brushed my hair which was actually, what we ended up doing is that even though this is a tragic thing that happened, we created a space of love and discovery around it because I found out things about him I didn't know. He found out things about me he didn't know. And then I also, he got to be close to my hair. Daniel has alopecia, he just lost his hair. And so, and I grew my hair out too. So we, so we were able to discover through this difficult situation we were still be able to discover qualities that we had and things that we both love to do that we're new because we're doing things completely differently. And so that was one way that he was supporting me but I was also supporting him and thanking him for being so fabulous and wonderful and giving him even extra love and appreciation. Just like I said, I really appreciated being able to help you through that. And that just helped me. What can I say without sounding to, I don't know what but you made me a better man. I felt like the better version, a better version of me was also arising through that brief tragedy that we had that fortunately through a lot of work that you did you healed your arm with physical therapists and others. Yeah. Well, the other piece too is that and this is kind of more typical of our life is that the way we support each other is first we just delight in each other. We have a way of being able to see the joy, the humor, the things that we disagree with and you make jokes about. We are always because I'm really grateful because Daniel's tall and I'm tall as well. And we basically hug each other a lot. So we hug each other all day long. We ask each other how we're doing. We're able to both ask for comfort, we create space for recognizing joy every single day. And it's because it's fun. I mean, we just do it because it's fun. And we give each other space when we need our own individual time for sure. But I gotta tell you, doing this is so hard for us. We're doing this interview in two different rooms and usually we would love to sit together and then get all bushy. So just know that we're a lot busier than we are right now. The other piece is that I'm a classic extrovert. Oh boy. Daniel describes himself as a loud introvert. So we're very different temperamentally but in terms of how we, our sensorium, that's what I call it, what we appreciate in the world is very similar. We just come at it from a different way and that's great. Makes life more fun. We're a match. We're a match. I was gonna talk about comfort and you've already guys have talked about that a little bit. We'll come back to that, but you talked about the differences. So, and you guys really resolve those differences in a wonderful way. Maybe you could tell us a little bit more for the audience who is not finding it so easy to deal with their differences. Tell us a little bit about how you guys actually compromise because you are coming from different positions a lot of times as they help to our audience. So can you tell us a little bit about compromising? You wanna start or you want me to? You go ahead. Okay. Well, this is partly what I do when I'm working with couples is I apply it to myself, which is when you meet somebody, there's kind of three categories of things having to do with what you have in common. The things all the way over here that you're absolutely different on, all the way over here you're totally together on and everything else is kind of in between. And during a relationship, what you're together on is not a problem. You work out the things in between, but it's where you're totally different. And if you're gonna be together, you have to accept certain things. And so for example, one, let's say medium-sized difference is I happen to be more traditionally Jewish in my observances now. So certain religious people have certain practices they do in the Jewish world. They affect our daily life like diet, like what food we have in the house and things like that. Margie is different in that respect. She didn't grow up with that or have that, although she was open to some things. So when Passover came, our first Passover, and I talked to her about how you have to clean a house for Passover, it was pretty shocking for her. And we didn't really have an argument. It was more like, well, let's see how we can do this. So you feel, and we both can feel okay. And so we just talked it over and figured out what I would do, what she would do toward cleaning the house, getting it ready for the holiday. And that was one example of, we really wanted to respect each other's needs around that. Is that sound right, honey? Yeah, actually, I started to cry. I thought, I can't do this. I want to because I love him so much. And he's a rabbi. I grew up in a less traditional household than his practice. So I started to cry. And so, since he Daniel, who's the one that really wanted this, he said, okay, I see you're upset. I'm gonna back off a little bit. Let's see how Margie, if I give Margie some space, maybe she can come forward a little bit and I'll move back a little bit. And then we'll find a space where she can be more comfortable doing a little bit more of what Daniel would need and a little bit more of what I would need. And so that's kind of the way we did it. But what we, I think what that came from was a place of mutual trust and love. Cause we, you know, and also the ability to kind of step away from certain things, just in that moment, step away from certain things that we need. You know, it's just a conversation. What actually happens is different. But sometimes when you talk it out, you can figure out where the area of compromise is possible. And so we're able to do that easily. We're also grownups. That's the other thing. We met when I was 45 and he was 49. We'd already been through divorces that were not fun that neither of us really wanted. You know, we're good people. Didn't have found the right person. So we're kind of in a way, we were ready to really try and fully be in a relationship. And then, you know, he's so much fun. I mean, how could you not want to be with him? I wanted to say we, I'll sort of talk for you, Margie. You can of course correct me. We want to thank our ex-spouses because our ex-spouses showed us what we did not want in our apartment. And helped me grow up so that I know how to be with somebody and go for what I need, but also to be able to be sensitive to them. And our ex-spouses were definitely not like us. They really let us know that we needed someone like each other. Right, right. So yeah. Maybe this is a good point to get back to the comfort because you guys are great at giving comfort to each other of saying and following up on each other's thoughts and the ways you guys can come together. So can you tell us a little bit more? I know you've got some stories about comfort as well that you could share with us. About how we give each other comfort? Yes. It's every day, all day, on and off. Very rarely do we have knock down, drag out arguments and they usually resolve fine, but just as is needed to everyone as they need from everyone as they can give. It's sort of like that principle. And often it's mutual. We just, in between my clients, because I see them in my office online and then I come out and sometimes I just need a hug or just need to say hi. And we both work at home. So I mean, that was something for us during the COVID is I know out of a number of couples had a hard time being in the same house a lot, but we kind of love being with each other during that period, even though it was hard socially otherwise. Honey, do you have anything to say about, you know? Yeah, in terms of comfort, part of it too is that we've created a home that has in it things that we love, you know, on the things that we'd like things. I don't like to be hanging around with things all the time, but when we've gone places and picked up, you know, beautiful sarongs or whatever, what we surround ourselves with is beautiful and also has memories attached to it. They're just not things. It's in 23 bookcases. And we have 23 bookcases. We're both, our joke is that if we can get married again, we get married in a library. We both love books, but we also have very similar tastes in certain kinds of things. And Daniel also is a storyteller, he has a storyteller of books, all kinds of different books. I love what's on his bookshelf. And we constantly, so we, and then Daniel's a musician, so there's musical instruments all around the house. So it's like our house is kind of like, it's kind of like a playground of wonderful, I like candles and everyone. That's the other thing, like in the morning, I get up and the joke is I sweep the Zendo because we live in a flat with its open floor plans. So I get up when the sun is rising and I sweep and do the dishes, we put on music and like candles. And we both love this kind of stuff together. You know, and then we start kind of, we both exercise, we're older, we have to, we both do our physical therapy exercises together on the yoga mat. So we're just kind of, we're in kind of sync. And we create an environment around us where all of this is comfort, you know? Let me say something if I can. Another thing just hit me is, you know, I knew this ideally with young couples, one will work and put the other person through school and then they'll turn around and do this. That's what we did. Like recently when I decided I wanted to move to Hawaii many years ago, but Margie just wasn't there. And so I, you know, explored, I set things up. I even got licensed before even moving here, not knowing if she'll ever want to move, but circumstances in our life changed so that we did move. Once I got here, she had to provide some money and support while I'm setting up a practice. Then she moved here and after a while, now I'm kind of doing that. I'm doing, I'm the major breadwinner while she's going through graduate school. And it's just, you know, it's not like, well, it's your turn now. I was like, no, it's not quid pro quo. It's just, it just feels right. This is just the right moment. And so Goody, I get to do that for you. And so that's a very comforting thing to know. We have someone we can lean on when we have something we really need. I really needed to move here and she was willing to do it. Now she loves it here. Right, yeah. It took 12 years, but the other thing is that part of being a relationship is realizing that you're also in a dialogue. And you can, it's okay to give it time and space to work itself through. So, you know, so you would come to Hawaii every once in a while and kind of, you know, try and discover and imagine what it might be if Daniel set a practice up, figure out what I'm gonna do with my career. You know, it was like, for me, it was a big, big change and it caused a lot of heartache when I got here and lost my career actually. But then I rediscovered something else going back to school, which has been a total godsend. And that's the other piece of advice. And it's more advice from people that are older, even though we both feel like we're in our 20s or not. But because we've been through some amount of life, the idea is to realize that everything's constantly evolving. And if you're with somebody that you trust and can provide comfort to and love, there's always gonna be space to create an opportunity that's gonna work. The idea is just to be patient and also, and stay aware. But it turned out that this was the best thing for me to do. It was very hard to leave the San Francisco Bay Area for a lot of reasons, but this has been a fabulous move for me and I'm really deeply grateful to be here in Hawaii with everyone, so with the community here, so it worked. Well, that sort of brings me to my final question because we're getting a little short on time. And I told Margie and Daniel that I would be asking this because a lot of people in our audience don't find it quite as easy as Daniel and Margie do with their relationships. And Margie's already given us some ideas about how to come closer together and how to help each other and support each other. But that's a lot easier said than done. And for those people out there who are still having a hard time adjusting to marriage or a partnership and this living with each other day after day, could you offer some advice on how to do that very difficult thing? You certainly give us an example of two of you, but any ideas that you would have for people out in the television audience? Margie, you want to go first? Yeah, I mean, part of it, both of us have been with people where it was not a match. So I know what that's like for all of you out there who would really love to have a more mutual relationship, but it just doesn't feel like, my thought is in our situation emotionally, even though we're very different people, it's a match for us. But the way that we support our capacity to stay like this is by in very small ways, always being appreciative of each other, of whatever it is that we're loving in that moment, to say it out loud. In fact, there's this research that shows the couples that appreciate each other in some physical or through their words five times, I think a day, do better, is that right, Daniel? Doing a five to one ratio between positive connection and negative. Right. Negative connections, yeah. So the idea is that, I mean, this is true, actually in any relationship in one's life, is that the more you engage with what works, the more you get back opportunities to do well, whether it's friends or at work or at home. And so the idea is if you engage with what's wrong, then you'll get that back. And so the idea is you wanna try and create a shift in any kind of relationship. Try and authentically validate what's working and what you love and bring yourself to it. And that helps create an opening, that's all you, and then you also feel the goodness in yourself, which sometimes can help your ability to go out and advocate for yourself to get what you need, to ask what you need from your partner, because you feel good about yourself, good enough to do it. And again, for people that are in relationships that are absolutely not working, though if you've tried as much as you can, you might need to consider shifting out of them in some way. But for those that are still in relationships that may have something there, what works for me, and I mean, you can tell like, we're pretty cushy for each other and just totally appreciate it. But I have been in some very uncomfortable relationships and Margie is so different from that. And we've made something that's very different, myself being a different kind of person. So a sense of gratitude, that in my older age, 50, if that's older, I never thought I would meet it. I said, that's it, I give up. But I know people that met each other and they're 70. So it doesn't matter the age, but I just felt and feel every day an incredible level of gratitude that she's in my life and that we've created this life together and to keep working with each other, even when we have those moments that happen, we always come back after we calm our amygdala down, calm our brain down a little bit, and we'll come back and then we can talk more reasonably about something, even if it's with energy, it's still, we can come to a compromise. And that's, for me, what relationship is, being able to communicate and then make agreements and keep them. You know, I just really appreciate you guys sharing all this. One of the things that really I picked up immediately when Margie said it, and when you just mentioned it to Daniel, is making sure that you tell the other person that you talk to the other person about this. I just watched the movie Ghost the other night and the couple together, Patrick Swayze, could never tell Demi more that he loved her. She would say, I love you, and he would say ditto. And it was one of the most telling things in movies that told us how difficult it is to say some things. And that is so important in a marriage. And that's one thing that I really admire about both of you is you're always telling each other how much you care and demonstrating how much you care. And if people in the audience could do that, I think it would solve or make things a lot easier than what it may be now. But let me thank you again, cause we are really short of time. I'm looking at the minus number starting up now. So Daniel and Margie, thank you so much for joining us. Thank you. Much appreciated. And thanks to all the people at Think Tech Hawaii, Michael and Jay and Haley and Carol and everybody. And thanks to you in the audience who's tuned in to us on our close to Valentine's Day. And in relationships. So, and we hope you'll come in in a couple of weeks. And when we do our next show, our next show is going to take us north. And it's going to be on the joy of Canada, which I think you'll all enjoy. So we'll see you then. Aloha.