 Please a warm welcome welcome back for Chris So out of curiosity How many people attended the event in Amsterdam? Wow Wow that that is impressive So for those of you that did attend it it is a similar Conversation that we're gonna have today We've evolved even just in the past three months with our implementation and adoption of it for it So I'm gonna bring some of that into this presentation as well For those of you that did not attend One of the the more common Themes that we heard in Amsterdam was a concept of change We're seeing IT organizations Kind of morph that we're seeing them adapt to some of the concepts Chris was just talking about with agile lean and The need to move faster is really driving How IT organizations are operating so there's a lot of conversation out there around change and and how we see organizations adapting to that Trying to stay on top of what the business needs And more importantly how to survive Within an organization So a little bit about myself before I get more into the depth of the material As Steve said I've been in IT for about 20 years. I'm just over and a large majority of my career has been focused On different functions within IT and more specifically around Driving the adoption and the influence of leading edge bleeding edge approaches within the organization Within my last company where I spent about 18 years a Big chunk of that was experimenting with companies like IBM with HP with Microsoft and others out there as they wanted to Look at bringing new technology into the enterprises That company was a very large grocery company that serviced several million people across the country had about 200 Locations and about 220,000 employees. So it was a great test bed for some of these companies to come in Prior to leaving that organization. I had responsibility over enterprise automation and leveraging concepts like artificial intelligence and True Yeah, process automation runbook automation kind of you name it that was all inclusive of my responsibilities Over the past couple years, I decided to take a switch and I joined Oracle I've been with them for just over two years now and my key role there is Around service management, but I'm also leading some efforts around digital transformation that we'll get into later on on the deck Before I get into the meat of the story I wanted to share a story with everybody kind of what drove me to the first implementation of it for it At this large grocery company So I'm sitting in my office one day and I get a phone call from the CIO and He says we need to be in the CEO's office in 30 minutes Never a great conversation. You're thinking do I have a job? Is it being outsourced? What's going on there? So I kind of get my thoughts together and I think about really the context behind it The CIO did not really know what this meeting was going to be about So I start walking over you know across the street to where the CEO's office was Sit down at the conference table that was within his office And he asked one simple question He says how can we reduce the spend and IT? IT is one of our largest budgets He had this grandiose vision around doing things in the retail operation space Reinvesting some of the money that he was spending on IT back into the business so at the time I was a little perplexed by What he was asking you know, I thought that we had progressed from more of a Order taker to a service provider for our business We had the best of breed solutions. We were spending a lot on software. We were spending a lot on on people But the reality was is I wasn't looking at that overall service which IT was providing as a cost prohibitor for the company moving forward So I asked the CEO to give me a day or two to think about it and I started talking with various folks around the organization Started talking with some of my peers in the industry with this challenge that the CEO had given me and I stumbled upon one of my peers at Hewlett Packard HP who said hey, we're getting into this Brand-new thing. It's called IT for IT It's a consortium of a bunch of different companies and they're all contributing to this new standard That might be a good thing for you to look at So we started having some conversations around it and ultimately I got back to the CEO and said I have an idea I know that we're spending a lot on software. I know that we're spending a lot on people How about I dig into this new approach and see if it's not Some place that we could end up saving some money So that's exactly what we did We started sourcing all of the software all of the tools that were out in the environment We talked with all 1200 employees We surveyed their laptops through discovery technologies We had interviews with people and what we found out was there were 1300 IT tools and Applications that were deployed across 1200 employees There's no way that we could have consistency with that people were downloading whatever they wanted. They had open source. They had Software that we were paying licensing for and ultimately People across departments and IT and sometimes even within the same department weren't using the same tools weren't speaking the same language and Found that it was very difficult to get work done We also discovered that we had 1500 unique business applications that IT was supporting So between the two of them 2800 applications that IT was either managing supporting deploying So on and so forth So ultimately we jumped into the IT for IT effort We found a way that we could use the structure of IT for IT And this is way back in version 1.1 of IT for IT To identify our solutions come up with rationalization approaches Think about leveraging the automation that we were already doing with an IT and Optimize that towards the process Ultimately getting people to use the same software When we initially started the effort we were targeting about 20 to 30 million dollars of savings By the time I left the company about two and a half years ago We had reached 70 million dollars Since that point I believe it's up an additional 20 to 30 million dollars Where they've reached almost a hundred million dollars in savings through the rationalization efforts So how did we do it? We took the framework for IT for IT and each one of the value streams around it and Through these interviews and the surveys and the discovery that we did with every single person We mapped the applications based on the purpose and the the function that those applications serviced Back into each one of the value streams What this graphic is showing you here and apologize, it's a little bit small But it's showing you that as we mapped out each one of these applications We had an overabundance of certain applications based on the value chain service monitoring for example 280 applications just for doing monitoring with an IT That's absurd You know no wonder when we said well This is saying that the CPU is high and this one saying that the CPU is within normal We didn't know how to react to that we weren't efficient as an IT organization Because we had gone out we had purchased the best of breed software But in almost every single case it was duplicated But what was interesting as we started to map all this out against the IT for IT value chains is That we had deficiencies we had core pieces of this reference architecture that we had absolutely no tools for So when you look at that reference architecture and you understand here the inputs and outputs across each one of the Components of it or the boxes that you see there in the diagram There were certain things that we thought that we were doing as a very mature ITIL organization that we weren't doing Or it was being done manual in some cases We then broke it down even further and here is where you can see you know looking at that service monitoring track under the Detect a correct value stream That we just had Tool after tool after tool after tool and granted some of those were large So they could have been application suites like you know BMC or HP in some cases But there was no consistency and because we had all of these unique or disparate tools None of them or very few of them were actually integrated across the board So we were asking our employees to use Probably three four times the amount of tools That they needed So as an example as we went through and we mapped all this out and then started through the rationalization effort We could take the 280 Service monitoring tools that were there and able to reduce it down to 15 and Then across the various teams whether that was application development whether that was data center operations whether that was Just the core BSM team themselves They were all using the same tools They were all speaking the same language and they could do very efficient handoffs across teams Ultimately the work effort led to creating a reference architecture of our own within IT We called this the ITOM reference architecture and what it did was it pulled all of the tools Across all of our IT service management functions into one view and we could see exactly how Automation played in that picture we could see how the cmdb played in that picture and Ultimately how these teams needed to operate and more importantly how they could grow in the future So if they wanted to buy a new tool, how would that interact based on the IT for IT model? So who here has not heard of Oracle? As I said in Amsterdam not here to sell anything I'm with the internal IT group, so you don't need to worry about architecture slides or or any of that But I wanted to share some statistics. I think everybody's heard of Oracle, but they may not know To what extent or how you know large we are in the industry As I started compiling all these statistics together I found a couple things very interesting one is I didn't realize that we were deployed to about 22 billion devices So every time that you get the Java update on your phone or your PC and you're screaming at Java Guess what? You know we're responsible for that We have in total about 152,000 employees and contractors and Like many other companies out there. We're in a mode of Transformation we hear the shift to the digital enterprise we hear digital transformation. We hear agile dev ops so on and so forth Oracle's no different About a year ago at our conference in San Francisco We made it an announcement that we're moving away from the software business Not necessarily software itself, but the way that we do software so one of those those major points That came out of this is as we shift from a software company We want to become a cloud company. We want to offer all of our software in the cloud to our customers Which also mean that internally within IT we had to adopt what we were telling our customers So all of the on-prem software data center centric software and applications that we had within IT We had to get into our own cloud With our CEOs ambition and our CTO's ambition of becoming the largest cloud company in the world You know we have to start at the roots of the organization So we started scrambling around, you know, how are we going to do that? But in order to understand how we were going to do it we had to understand how we got to where we were So many years back way before I Adjoined the company Oracle had gone through a massive amount of acquisitions and Like any company that does acquisitions integration standardization is always one of the hardest things to do We had multiple ERP systems. We had multiple Email systems multiple service management platforms And there really was no standardization across the company and through each acquisition that was done It was acceptable to have all of these Kind of snowflakes if you will out there in the environment From an IT perspective that became extremely difficult to manage that As each acquisition happened we now had to support a new ERP system or a new email system or whatever it may be each network was unique each Kind of employee profile was unique So it made it extremely difficult to sustain that approach So then we got in this mode of hey, let's adopt ITIL. ITIL is going to fix all of our problems We're gonna have one standard framework for managing IT And in all honesty, we adopted ITIL and we did it a hundred percent We adopted it as if we were a level five maturity organization So everything in that ITIL book got implemented And what ended up happening is IT started alienating themselves from our internal customers And in some regards to our external customers as well that relied on Oracle for support We said we're gonna take these multiple ERP systems and shrink them down to one IT knows what's best for our business And we're gonna do all the work on their behalf We said we're going to standardize we said that we're going to reduce the amount of Offerings that we could give our business because after all, you know within IT. We thought we knew what the business wanted But in all reality That ended up alienating us even further Our customers no longer wanted to work with IT and as a result During that phase we saw new IT organizations not pseudo IT Complete IT organizations being spun up Specific the lines of business within the company. So now we had the problem of all right Well, we said we were going to standardize all of our our applications and hardware and all of our IT assets but now we have Three IT organizations that do or five it five IT organizations that do Change management that do incident management that Have their own access and controls around specific infrastructure that nobody else does So that created a bigger challenge than just the duplication of software itself As all of these unique IT organizations started to spin up Across the enterprise we ended up slowing ourselves down tenfold compared to where we were before We didn't know how to operate let alone as one IT organization or three four five IT organizations So What we would look at in terms of a project delivery being maybe three to five months before it was now taking two years Our customers were getting more and more frustrated With IT and at this time we started to see some of the dynamics change within the industry things like iPhones, you know everybody had an iPhone and what happens when you have an iPhone you download an app It's intuitive you get it in seconds. That's what our customers were expecting from us and we could not deliver We started seeing things like cloud computing like dev ops like agile starting to come around us And I can remember it was 2007 just down the street from here Gartner was having a conference called catalyst And it was the first time that Gartner publicly came out and said If companies don't start looking at cloud start don't start adopting cloud They're not going to survive in the future The model of having your own data centers and managing your own data centers and having high cost resources Is no longer sustainable For any organization and and I was kind of floored when I when I heard that They were also talking about some of the concepts around big data and internet of things But the cloud discussion itself um, especially being an old infrastructure guy kind of took took me to heart that I may be out of a job in the future Over the course of the past two to three For five years give or take depending upon what industry you're in you start hearing terms like continuous integration continuous delivery You start seeing it organizations trying to restructure to say how do I get out of this itel structure? And more into that lean or agile approach And it's a big struggle for a lot of companies Our customers are expecting That we deliver at a much quicker pace that we're not soliciting requirements in two years later Delivering a project that is no longer matched to those requirements Internally within oracle. We've seen the same thing As an it organization as I mentioned previously We're focused on cloud 100 percent of what we're doing within it is matched towards that goal of being a cloud first organization Being a consumer of our own technology And to give you a couple of stats which mark heard one of our CEOs came out with At open world a couple years ago Is he predicts by 20 25 100 percent Of all dev and test Will be out on the cloud that that will no longer sit on prem other than maybe a developer's Laptop when they check out an environment We're seeing or he's predicting I should say 80 percent of production is going to sit in cloud So just a quick show of hands who in the room has not Started deploying the cloud Yeah So we're seeing that explosive change out there cloud gives you the dynamics to be able to quickly deploy You know scale it down when it's not needed scale it up when it is needed elasticity containers some of the new technologies that are coming out almost on a daily basis now Are enabling us to move at a much quicker pace But what we found internally within it is if we continue operating in an it model cloud does nothing for us except give us a new compute platform So we've had to change a lot of our processes a lot of our procedures For supporting cloud So another story very similar to the ceo story I told before About a year ago my ceo or cio calls me again another you know, not great conversation around If we do not Change the way that we operate within it Within five years. We will no longer be an it organization It will either be outsourced Or move to potentially another it organization within the company And so he presented a unique challenge to his leadership team, which is what can we do? To bring value to our customers and to Continually deliver value but move it that much quicker pace Keeping in mind that our number one objective still was to move everything to the cloud We had to support the evolution of our company that was also going through that same objective So I brought back some of the experience that I did with my previous company And said hey, here was a framework that we tried Um, I'm not going to share a ton of detail around it. I'm primarily because at that point in time Methodologies and frameworks Were basically a four letter word within oracle, you know, they wanted to Do their own thing their own flavor of everything So I said I'd like to go investigate this and see if it applies to what we're doing within oracle and he left it at that and So we started With a small team and we built that team as an agile team to go and take a look at It for it and applying that with our transformation So we started out with some of the the the core things we looked at it We looked at dev ops We said should we operate as a waterfall organization? Should we start looking at agile? We knew that we had to change As an it organization, but we didn't really know how We knew that we could use it for it for part of it, but not all of it We wanted to use it for it is the base For our digital transformation efforts We had a pretty big problem though When we went back and started looking at All of our processes all 26 itel processes We only had two that were actually connected to an asset management solution And what you don't see up there is we had no cmdb So we had no centralized Management around configuration items in the environment our processes were all standalone And just like the the previous company I was at each process had its unique tool And the tools were not integrated in any way at all So we weren't effective when it came to service management We weren't effective as an it organization because everything was isolated in nature So then we started looking at pulling it for it into this We started looking at what were the inputs and outputs of each process segment within the value streams What did we need to concentrate on and again looking at this holistically across all 26 processes We knew at some point we needed to change from this traditional model To more agile like So we kept that in the back of our minds as we started re-engineering all of our processes We knew that they had to be integrated We knew that information had to flow from process to process And we had to streamline these processes as much as possible So that we could operate at that new expected approach So we started with configuration management that was our keystone for all of the other processes But instead of having a tool To manage a cmdb like so many of us have out there We said why don't we let the automation take care of that? If we're going to build a cloud solution We're going to use automation to deploy to manage to do everything around configuration management within the cloud Why don't we just have it more as a reporting mechanism than an actual cmdb So we changed our approach We took some people out of the equation that would manage a cmdb or our asset management solution before that We started looking at some of these new ways of working so change management can be done via automation Versus having a complex change approval board Release management can be fully automated other than somebody reviewing the package and approving it And we could start looking at methods like extreme programming And have your test models done before you even develop the code Over time And this took us about seven or eight months We could take all 26 itel processes And shrink that down to 15 instead of buying tools And figuring out the process we started with the process and then did tooling associated with it As mentioned we leveraged it for it As the core foundation for all of our process re-engineering What we ended up doing was taking years and years of process development ever since That very robust itel implementation and threw it out the door We decided we were not going to use any of this Rather we were going to lean on it for it to help prescribe Exactly how we were going to operate as an it organization Anywhere from strategy to operational support All of that was included in this What we then did was we said we need an actual operating model Not just a process framework, but an operating model that we can start figuring out How are we going to work as an it organization? So we leaned on ceb to help us out with their digital enterprise model To understand How agile could be applied to a very traditional i and o organization How could we have that business relationship that we've never Fully understood or have never been able to successfully accomplish And so we leaned on ceb for that We then analyzed multiple agile frameworks that were out there And this was the biggest challenge for us Within it Um oracle it has 7500 people in total. We support 40 000 developers and we have You know an Exorbitant amount of business partners that we work with on a daily basis The scaled agile framework Was something that we could leverage And it applied Perfectly on top of it for it for being able to operate in a fast efficient and predictable model We could take things like centralized decisions push them down into teams. We could allow teams to be self-forming in some regards We could become More of that rapid delivery mechanism that our business was expecting So if we look at where we started in terms of it for it We started at the beginning and that was first understanding What we needed and how we would operate As we rebuilt or re-engineered all of these processes We had four value streams that we started out with the four from it for it that you see and we mapped the processes against those And started creating agile teams within oracle To re-engineer rewrite redesign each one of these processes We started with the select few to test out that model configuration management as I said was Kind of the keystone to everything But we did that in parallel with change management with incident management with test management So that we could create this cohesive process model behind that As we started developing these processes We started thinking about how could each Execution point within the process be handled by either a tool or more preferably automation With the ultimate goal of not having a single person needed to execute these processes. They're just done behind the scenes We then expanded on that. We looked at other value streams, especially strategy to portfolio the requirements to deploy those types of Value streams so then we could understand. How did we interact with the business? How could we actually build solutions and make sure that the requirements? That the business had of it were continually met So not that the old process of get requirements up front deliver two years later It's a checkpoint throughout the way and that's something scaled agile Helps us understand as well We then looked at completing this We looked at the architecture function, which is something that We within our it organization abandoned years ago. So we're Implementing architecture into the environment So as I said each one of these Lays over one another very nicely So if I look at strategy to portfolio for example, we can look at the safe concept or piece For strategy and it plays into each one of those processes very nicely We look at tooling and all of our tooling has been realigned back to those processes Something that that you'll see through these slides is we haven't gone out and invested a tremendous amount in enterprise software to achieve IT for IT We're able to do this with very common open source products And get that consistency across it to where they're using the same products Whether that's Jira whether that is Confluence whether it is a couple of Homegrown types of tools We've simplified just like with my last company the number of products that we have to manage our IT processes Here's another one looking at requirements to deploy and this is Really holistic of that project life cycle. So once I get requirements and once I understand what's strategic for the organization How do I build solutions? How do I leverage things like scrum like xp like lean and agile? to continually Put releases out To continually drive value back into the organization Here's an example of you know, again, how we're using open source tools So if I'm managing source code You know, it could be a tool like get it could be a tool like subversion using Hudson and Jenkins for deployment chains one of the unique things that we found with this is that When we were analyzing all of our tools It created a new type of culture within IT So in years past, for example, infrastructure teams and application developers were highly segregated So through the use of Our process re-engineering the adoption of several different frameworks We now have those teams working directly together We're seeing roles change in the environment that we don't have A server engineer. We have a dev ops engineer that handles both application and operating system We're seeing concepts like software defined data centers Where everything in our environment is being transferred to code So it's really changing not only the way that we do it, but the skill sets within our IT organization And I'm going to breeze through a couple of these since we're running short on time here Um Once we understood kind of the The model around how we would operate Whether that was from a process standpoint or the digital enterprise standpoint from ceb Or even some of the project methodologies Like agile scrum lean that we would see through the implementation of safe We then had to think about how we operated As an IT organization holistically So what we did was we ended up restructuring the functions With an IT not necessarily from an org chart perspective, but really What we delivered within IT Around the IT for IT framework. So we looked at our portfolio management We could align that to strategy to portfolio We looked around project delivery those dev ops types of skill sets Put that into requirements to deploy So what we've ended up doing was Before where it was a very siloed organization based on technology discipline It's now aligned back to Not only our internal processes, but the overall framework of IT for IT So where did that get us? We're about a year into this transformation The goal is by 2020 That will be completely transformed from running a bimodal or multimodal IT organization Which we are currently into 100% of this digital enterprise model We've gone through one implementation of this where they've tested out New processes, new procedures, new tooling The whole agile methodology Where that went live two weeks ago That consisted of 64 application components About 700 virtual servers all running in our cloud environment We saw things like the provisioning of a virtual server within our IaaS environment go from Roughly two months To about two hours give or take including all validation We're seeing a tremendous amount of productivity gain based on re-engineering the processes Leveraging some of these newer technologies and Getting consistency across the IT organization Over the course of the next year our goal is to reposition 100% of the applications that we have That are hosted in our data centers to this cloud environment And our plan is now that we have a tested framework in place To lean on what was developed over the course of the past year We've also seen a heavy dependency on automation So we've been able to eliminate about 80% of where human was involved In the IT processes before eliminated And give you an example change management. We all do change management When we re-engineered that process we went from a 10-day Request to approval cycle to 24 hours Rob England has a thing out there. He's also known as the IT skeptic That's called kill the cap and we took that into heart to say We want to reinvent how IT is done within Oracle And we were able to leverage Various tools and frameworks out there to make that happen We don't see this complex and heavy overhead around review, approval, implementation We can put the trust into our people We can get consistent through the use of automation so that you don't need the heavy overhead And with that being said I'm going to leave you with one quote And this is one of my favorite quotes out there Which is essentially saying you know we're going to go through a journey and it's not necessarily Um What's important during that journey you're going to learn as you go through it But as you get to the end of it You're going to realize you know the importance of all of the events that have kind of built up to that Okay Thank you for your time Grace, thank you. Please take a seat Lots of questions coming in and surprisingly um First one was very early on The oracle introduction slide said you had seven and a half thousand Folks in it and you supported 40 000 internal developers. Why do you not see them as part of it? So the 7500 and great question 7500 Is specific to The internal roles that are needed to Either support application development or cloud team or Lines of business so as I was talking about we ended up with five distinct it organizations That's actually down to three at this point And each one of those it organizations has a customer that they support So the 40 000 developers are actually supported through our Product development it organization technically. Yes. They are part of it But we count them separately because they're developing products that we sell out of the marketplace, right? Let's see Do you use the configuration management component to capture the it service throughout its life cycle? So if we look at the new model And what we started operating with over the the course of the past year We use tools like Kafka We use tools like chef and Get and a couple of other tools in there That through real-time analysis because they know what's been deployed They're keeping a repository of information that we can always go back and say this is the current state of your configuration items What we're seeing in cloud is things are spinning up and spinning down so quickly That we abandoned the traditional cmdb So that we could keep up with the dynamics Okay, so related. Can you say a little more about how you Went about Selecting the tools you said you didn't spend a lot of money on enterprise software What was the process for us selecting tools? So one of the the unique Opportunities that we had Out of the three it organizations. We were the first to go out into the Oracle's public club it was still Basically, you know a concept we had a couple of customers on it But nothing at scale And as we were developing the cloud product itself We partnered with our cloud team to say these are the types of tools enterprises would need it or would need So we did a ton of analysis. We looked at various tools that were out there But we built the model so it was very modular and flexible in design So if we decided that chef was not the right tool for us We could replace that with you know, what other type of automation or orchestration platform Okay, all right um Back to the retailer example, how do you how did you measure the cost savings at the retailer? What metrics were the best to show the savings? So we did it in two different ways We did it one by Product elimination So as we went through and rationalized The entire suite of products we were looking at more enterprise types of solutions So we went with a couple of things that kind of replaced say 2030 50 isolated products So as we eliminated all of these products that we were paying for obviously, there's You know substantial savings right there The other Savings that we measured was through labor savings itself in some cases that was head count reduction In other cases we were looking at productivity That was seen through the automation and another tooling. Okay Thank you Sounds like this is from someone who's been through a alienation phase themselves It seems like you're saying the that using it for it helped free you from the shackles of itill Is that right and if so can you say more about how I mean? Shackles, so that's a great word It for it Supported itill in my previous company So we leveraged That framework or reference architecture to complement their itill implementation because itill is That four letter word at oracle we used It for it for actually getting away from it and we did it in a manner that we did not tell people Outside of that initial group That we were adopting an industry reference architecture to build all of our processes upon And once they saw wow, this is really efficient. This works great. We said oh by the way Guess what we used Yeah, I hear that quite a lot. Don't mention the word just get on just do it. Yeah Uh, what role do you see the technical staff like DevOps engineers and developers playing in an organization like the open group? Within the open group or just in general Uh, well the question is specifically an organization like the open group So like uh coming together and working on uh on standards and I I think um How do I want to say this? I mean it's a good question. If you look at the dynamics of How technology is changing? Every year and a half to two years. We're seeing a significant Transformation within the it technical skill sets five years ago. It would be very normal to have a technology specific role today Those types of roles are being morphed into more of the dev ops types of roles more specialized generalists so What I I've always recommended to my staff and others in the industry is The more that you can collaborate socialize Um either through forums like this or through other dev ops types of Mechanisms, that's the best thing to do right now. Um We need to stay on top of it and it's very difficult to do with how it continually is reinventing itself right now right, okay How much of your effort was spent on gaining insight into the effects of the changes that were made? Ii next to the primary functional changes. Did you have a strategy in place to actually show their effects? So there was a very structured reporting Um and analytics piece behind both of them So one of the things I always want to do is not just adopt something and say, oh, yeah, it worked. I feel that it works better What you need to do is continually sell this and improve upon it So with both implementations, it was a Continual review. Um typically six months After the implementation to say, where do we need to tweak things? Where are we not getting the value that we expected? And we do that across all four value chains With the oracle implementation because we're also adapting Agile into the it organization We actually have Structured teams that that's what they're chartered for So just like you would develop a product or an app dev team would develop a product We have an app dev team that is specific to the processes and they go through the same approach that everybody else does Okay Can you elaborate on how you went about automated discovery and mapping of it components? Curious to know why a tool such as service now was not deemed feasible um So in my previous company, um, they actually had very robust discovery capabilities We were in a state of going from BMC remedy to service now So when this mapping was done Actually both showed up there Because we were at that transitional state And even when I left the company Two and a half years ago, which was two years into their service now implementation. They still had both running so Multiple discovery tools were used from a Desktop or a client perspective. There were tools like HPCA that were used In the data center We used BMC discovery. We used Um, some other types of things. We did not use the service now discovery but It was able to effectively get all software that was deployed Yeah, through the the various tools that we used. Okay Um getting close to having to what percentage of the transformation budget was targeted to retraining and or sourcing changes So in the previous company, it was more of a grassroots effort So as we did Rationalization most of the training came internally. So there was not a significant amount of budget Associated with it even though we were recouping a large amount of money In oracle, we're taking a different approach because we're completely uprooting The structure the methodologies and the framework within it And we're completely abandoning itel We're spending a significant amount of money on training retooling And whether that is to understand the methodologies or that's even to train people in the new tooling that's You know, that's being implemented Um, which is why you see a three-year implementation on this. You know, we're touching a lot of people We're also training the business as we go through this So the business goes through the exact same Methodology training that it does because our goal is that they're going to be operating together Okay, um two two quickies And you kind of answered what the oracle view on this is already I think but can it for it replace itel completely I don't believe that it can and if you look at how it for it's been constructed It leverages pieces of itel. It leverages pieces of cobit and iso and you know various other frameworks that are out there It's kind of the best to breed figuring out what's worked out there in the industry If you talk to Anybody out there, you know, whether that's the gardener the forester And even some of the dev ops folks That they'll say itel is not dead, but itel Is dated And what we see is some of these new things like agile adopting pieces of it But doing it in different ways so My advice to companies is You know figure out as you're going through your digital transformation Is what pieces are actually critical to support itel? You still have to do change management. You still have to do incident management But how you do it can be done completely differently. Okay. And last one, uh, have you written a case study of your Experience of using it for it and the transformation and if not, can we get one? And it wasn't me asking the question. It's down I co-authored a piece That hp had done a couple of years ago And we're actually in the process of writing one specific to oracle right now So whomever asked that question, you know hit me up and Be more than happy to have you as an early adopter of that white paper. Okay. Chris. Thank you very much. Absolutely Thank you very much