 On Wednesday, we revealed an exclusive leaked email that showed David Evans, the Labour Party General Secretary, was intending to silence any discussion whatsoever as to the suspension of Jeremy Corbyn. That email has now gone out to all CLP chairs, so that's constituency Labour parties in the country. We can look at the key section from that email now. So David Evans writes, it remains the case that motions which seek to repudiate the findings of the EHRC or question its competency to conduct the investigation remain not competent business for branches or CLPs. Motions relating to ongoing disciplinary cases are also not in order in line with the instructions of my predecessor. I am aware that other motions including expressions of solidarity and matters relating to the internal processes of the PLP are providing a flashpoint for the expression of views that undermine the Labour Party's ability to provide a safe and welcoming space for all members, in particular our Jewish members. All motions which touch on these issues will also be ruled out of order. So this is as we reported on Wednesday. They're basically saying if you want to pass a motion in favour of the whip being returned to Jeremy Corbyn, you cannot. It is banned. They had initially said it's banned because this is an ongoing disciplinary process now that the party have concluded the disciplinary process and they've decided that Jeremy Corbyn can remain a member. It's now a political issue concerning the whip in Parliament. They've had to change their excuse. So the excuse now is to even have these conversations that could lead to uncomfortable conversations therefore you are not allowed to have that conversation. So this translates to Keir Starmer is allowed to go out on television and say that what Jeremy Corbyn has done deserves his whip to be removed, deserves him to no longer be a Labour MP. But members are not able to use really the only means they have to have a voice which is through the democratic structures because not many grassroots members get invited onto the Andrew Marsha or onto Sky to talk about Jeremy Corbyn. So this is the only voice people within the Labour Party have. They are not allowed to. Apparently the politically divisive decision made by Keir Starmer is too politically divisive for anyone to discuss or very Orwellian you could say. Now this hasn't stopped people voting on motions expressing solidarity with Corbyn. So after that email got sent out and there were votes in Birmingham Hall Green, Hampstead and Kilburn, Milton Keynes, North and South and Leeds North East and they all voted to support the restoration of the whip to Jeremy Corbyn. So they defied the recommendations, the requests or the demands I suppose you could say of David Evans. Now it's still unclear if these particular CLPs will be suspended or if the officers so the chairs and the secretaries will be suspended which is what happened in Bristol West which is one of the country's largest local parties. But the threat of suspension is already preventing members having their voices heard. So I spoke earlier to Corey Drew who was a Labour candidate in last year's general election and is now chair of Bournemouth East Constituency Labour Party. So she explained to me the difficult, the difficult situation, really difficult situation that email from David Evans put her in. I found it really difficult to decide what to do because my heart was telling me that we should carry on and put the motions down anyway to make a stand for what we felt was right. But then my head was telling me that I needed to protect the members and that ultimately for them to be potentially suspended for moving and seconding these motions was too high a price to pay at this point. You know, we have some fantastic socialists in Bournemouth Labour who have worked really, really hard and I would hate to see them all suspended from the party and for somebody else to then potentially take control in the area. So it was a really hard decision to make and I still today have been going back and forth over whether I did the right thing. We removed the three motions that regarded our freedom of speech that regarded the leadership, the general secretary and restoring the whip to Jeremy. I explained why to our members in the meeting and we shared them the letter from the general secretary so that they could read that. I've had a lot of disappointed messages. I've had a lot of people who are angry, a lot of people who agreed for what I'd done. And I still I'm not sure, but we're we're safe and we're here to fight another day. I promised members that I would work with the new EC to look at an alternative way for them to be able to speak on this important subject, particularly around the issue of the need for democracy and labour. And that is our founding principle. We're a democratic socialist party. We need to be allowed to speak to be a member of the party. I think, you know, if we're not a democratic party, if we're not led by the members, then we're not Labour anymore. So that was Corey Drew just making clear how difficult the situation this this dictate from David Evans has put local party members and local party chairs in. They've got members who want to discuss quite legitimately the suspension of the whipper political decision about someone who they have a great deal of respect for who they've been campaigning for the last five years to become prime minister. But if you do discuss that, then you risk the suspension of people in your CLP. It's obviously an incredibly difficult decision to make. There is one more thing I want to I want to bring up here, which is in the Huffington Post sort of article about this, there was a senior Labour source who said that the reason they are doing this, the reason they are banning people from discussing these anti democratic maneuvers from from Keir Starmer and from David Evans is they say, because we all know that among some party members, a discussion on a seemingly innocent motion can be designed to trigger a much more, frankly, nasty discussion. Now, I think that's absolutely outrageous to say that. He's saying that the reason not only might something be said that makes people feel uncomfortable if a motion supporting sort of the whip to be reinstated for Jeremy Corbyn. You know, that could be a consequence of it. So we have to ban it. He's saying people are specifically debating the reinstating of Jeremy Corbyn's whip so that they can make other people feel unwelcome in the party. And that's not what the evidence suggests. So I've spoken to people from from Bristol West, who are the people who've been suspended, you know, the chairs and the secretaries of that. When they heard a motion to reinstate Jeremy Corbyn's whip, they made sure that there was one person speaking in favour, one person speaking against, and then the vote happened. They were very cognizant of the fact that if you just had a free for all discussion, it could get uncomfortable and divisive, but they didn't because know what I have not spoken to a single chair or secretary who puts forward a motion because they want to have a conversation that makes people feel uncomfortable. I just think this is completely without evidence and a really appalling thing to say about people who've been working over the last five years for a Labour government. Anyway, what's clear is that this all, you know, poses a very difficult dilemma or a very difficult decision for chairs and secretaries around the country. They're all coming to different conclusions. But what is momentum's official position on this? So momentum, as you all know, was the organisation founded to support Jeremy Corbyn's leadership and is now really leading the fight to keep the flame alive for the Labour left. Luckily, to find out, I'm joined by Andrew Scattergood, co-chair of Momentum. Could I start by asking you what is your take on how on how members should respond to this? Obviously, you know, we've got Corbyn supporting or not even Corbyn supporting just people who are in favour of internal party democracy receiving emails saying, if you debate the removal of Corbyn's whip, then your your members could be suspended or you could be suspended. But, you know, some people are making the decision to defy that, that dictates some people are saying, look, I would like to defy it, but I'm worried about me getting suspended and other people getting suspended and that being self-defeating. What's what's momentum's position and what strategy people should take? Well, Michael, aren't we in an absolute absurd situation where in a democratic party and Corby was, you know, so much sympathy for the kind of situations that people like Corbyn put in, complete dilemma of what to do. And what we're seeing is a complete factional and anti-democratic crackdown by the Labour leadership. And that's causing all sorts of problems up and down the country. But what we're seeing is we're seeing a rise from the grassroots and a swell from the grassroots who who are fighting back on this. And the one thing that is striking me through this whole process, it's got so many echoes with what happens in workplaces up and down the country where what bosses do is they do something which upsets the workers and instead of rectifying that they double down on it and they inflict more restrictions that crack down harder on the workers. And then what you find is the threats come and the threats come in the workplace. It'll be suspension or it'll be dismissal. We're seeing something very similar happening in the Labour Party and eventually the workers rise up and they organise and they fight back. Now in momentum, that's exactly what we're planning on doing. So we're supporting the motions to be put forward in CLPs. And the issue that the general secretary is going to find is that the more that he cracks down on these motions, the more that he says you can't debate this, you can't debate that. Members will find other areas to raise motions on and it'll get worse and it'll get stronger and it'll get more and more of a pressure put on the general secretary and the leadership. So we've been doing quite a few things. We're supporting the motions, the CLPD, the people who have sort of offered them. We've been working with them to promote them and get them out to our activists. We've had an email tool which has sent over 8,000 emails now about these from members up and down the country to Kia and Angela and that's proving something that's putting a lot of pressure on the leadership because of the amount of anger and frustration that we're facing. And we're also starting to organise for AGMs. We're asking our members to start when we're going to assist them to stay in touch with each other and organise for AGMs to make sure that we keep control of the party. So they're the sort of immediate things that we're doing. But what we're also looking at now is we're looking at legal support because the one thing that is really, really difficult for members right now is to know where they stand on things and when they run the threat of suspension and then if they are suspended, these are regular people. These are just people who are doing this. They're volunteering to be officials in their CLPs or their branches and now they're finding themselves under immense pressure and let's be honest, who understands the Labour Party rule book? So we're looking at how we can support our members legally and with legal advice and we'll be talking about that and we'll be putting stuff out about that very, very soon. So I suppose to clarify there, are you suggesting people do hear motions to say we support giving back Corbyn the whip or are you saying that maybe they should come up with motions which sort of imply that but you know subtle enough or ambiguous enough to fall not within what has been explicitly banned by David Evans or are you basically just sort of saying look it's up to you and we'll support you whatever you decide? I think it's up to people to decide what they want to do. I mean at a personal level I would be putting forward motions and I plan to do that in my CLP when we finally have a meeting but you know I think that that's something that people can do and you've explained you know more articulate than I could on this show about you know the reason why this is not a disciplinary matter now this is a political decision taken by Starmer. There is nothing wrong with debating the internal politics of the Labour Party so members are free to do that but then we also understand the pressure that people are under and this isn't just from the general secretary this will be from members within their own branch and wider as well. So you know if members choose to put that forward we'll be supporting them and if they do find themselves under threat of any discipline or any dysfunctional crackdown then we're looking at the ways that we can support them legally because that's very very important because it seems like at the minute the Labour Party leadership aren't going to listen to anything unless we start taking further action or whether we look at legal challenges. I want to bring up some polling that was from Labour List yesterday which I think potentially shows why the left the Labour Left of which of course I include myself in might have to tread slightly carefully so this is from salvation in combination with with Labour List or in partnership with Labour List they asked members on their email list but then sort of waited the results so it's supposed to be you know reasonably scientific they asked people their views on Jeremy Corbyn's response to the EHRC report and so that was obviously one of the things that sparked this current row and Labour members in general are fairly negative about it so we can get up this so Labour List members survey views on Jeremy Corbyn's response to the EHRC report so 58% of members have a negative view of what Jeremy Corbyn said on the day that the EHRC was was released only 31% have a positive view when we get to whether or not Keir Starmer was right or wrong to restore the whip to Jeremy Corbyn that's sort of better results for the left but again it's quite close so 48% think it was wrong for Keir Starmer to withhold the whip from Jeremy Corbyn 46% think it was right for him to do so so basically the party is split down the middle and then when it comes to sort of general questions about Keir Starmer so whilst myself and many of our audience will be completely infuriated with Keir Starmer at this point I talked about it a lot on Wednesday I think he's totally showed himself to be a shifty guy who was quite dishonest during the leadership election and is now basically using all the power he has as as party leader to attack the left but 55% of Labour members think Labour is moving in the wrong is moving in the right direction only 40% think it's moving in the wrong direction so it seems as if the majority of the party are the majority of party members are not you don't share my view on that and then finally this is potentially sort of the most well worrying or the one that should give us sort of pause as to what strategy should be pursued in terms of people's views of party leaders and in terms of favourable and unfavourable the proportions of people who see their leadership as as good as positive and we can get this up Starmer is on 58% favourable and 34% unfavourable and Corbyn is on 48% favourable and 46% unfavourable I want to just keep this up for seconds so I can read you what was the exact question so they said for each of the following Labour Party leaders please state whether you have a favourable or unfavourable view of their performance as leader of the Labour Party and so it seems as if the general Labour Party membership is happier with Keir Starmer's performance than in retrospect they are with Jeremy Corbyn's performance and I want to go to you on this Andrew because even though you know we might think the side of justice is on Labour members who want to make Keir Starmer's life quite difficult over the suspension of Jeremy Corbyn it seems as if you know the patience of the broader Labour membership for a big internal battle right now over a statement that it seems that a majority of them didn't think was potentially was a particularly good statement in the first place you know is there a worry that the left become isolated during this struggle are you are you thinking about that possibility and how to avoid it well of course I mean of course we're thinking about things like this but the reality is I mean what we're seeing is and you referred to it there you know a divided party when we think that Keir Starmer stood on the pledges of unity and what we've ended up with is is is a division you know even though there are more people who according to this poll anyway who object to what Starmer's doing with removing the whip from Corbyn you know it is an absolute divided party and you know that's salvation but the poll come out shortly after the NEC elections when we saw that the left took the majority of the vote in those elections you know and and when you think about and you know we took five of those seats compared to the I guess the Starmer supporting slate you know you have to question about whether these polls are lining up with actually what is going out there in the CLPs and then when I think about what my experience is and I'm hearing from activists up and then the country over these we're seeing the motions that are being put forward we're seeing CLPs that nominated Starmer in the leadership now passing motions of support for Jeremy I think what we're finding is that there's a very divided party but let's really let's also think about what Labour Party members are Labour Party members of Democratic Socialists and what they want to see is a Democratic society and if they haven't got a Democratic Party how do we achieve that and I think the more that this crackdown happens and and bearing in mind this is by an unelected official of the Labour Party this is somebody who is not accountable to the members at all as that grows and as that crackdown further and as I say as they double down on this as they as they crack down further and they try different things we've got Labour Party Conference coming up next year you know we're completely alive to the fact that this crackdown is the one that is in the is very is very public but there'll be all sorts of maneuvers behind the scenes in order to try and withdraw even further democracy from the Labour Party through that process so we're going to be making sure that we're at the front of demanding democracy in the Labour Party as well so I think when we're looking at when we're looking at this polly when we're looking at the what the outcome of this polling is you know we've seen a divided party we've seen a divided party where let's be honest the mandate that Keir Starmer got was you know similar to what Corbyn got that is being etched away the support for Starmer and what he's doing is being reduced and as we go as we go further as we see the lack of policy as we see further retreat on policy as we see all the other things that are going to be coming our way you'll see more and more support being withdrawn from that and that's where momentum you know we'll be we're organising we're organising on the grassroots we're going to be because ultimately that's where the power base will come from and we'll continue to do that so you got to think about what's next Michael as well it's not just about you know what we do now in the immediate crackdown but we've got to start thinking about electing the best of our movement to Parliament again that's something that momentum are you know at the thick of now and we're really really thinking about and as I said you know conference we've got to think about the transformative we've got to win a conference really important thing but not just transformative policies not just a whole case Starmer to the template is an increase on those templates and even further on the 2017 2019 manifesto but we've got to be demanding democracy in there you know for me personally I think we've really got to consider whether an unelected general secretary is the right thing for a democratic movement and we've got to be thinking about the big donors you know go thinking about how right that is in our party and we've got to be thinking about the NEC the makeup that the NEC is absolutely appalling to think that the NEC the governing body is only represented out of a out of a committee of 30 odd people by nine delegates from the membership is outrageous and wouldn't happen in any other democratic society so we've got lots of things that we will be putting a plan out there will be organising our members and we'll be taking the fight directly to this undemocratic and factional crackdown someone's pointing out in the comments that 40 percent thinking the party going in the wrong direction is not necessarily a small amount they've said Michael saying only 40 percent and 40 percent isn't actually that small I suppose to sort of very quickly give my take on this before we go to the next development in this in this story which is that I think it seems to me from looking at this what Labour members care about is democracy but also winning elections so the argument that we have to win is that you have to reinstate Jeremy Corbyn to bring about unity so that Labour can win an election I think if we allow those two issues to become detached so you either support Corbyn's reinstatement or you support Stammer's electability then we're going to be on on riskier ground but I do genuinely believe that Labour can only win an election if you have unity between the centre left and the left of the party and so it would be just stupid for Stammer to pursue this divisive and factional campaign to humiliate the previous Labour leader which is something that I don't think a Labour leader has has done before is to sort of do this to their immediate predecessor