 So, welcome everyone, my name is Marta Gider-Pikarska, I'm Director of Ecosystem at Hyperledger. As you may know Hyperledger is a project within the Linux Foundation, so actually open source summit is very close to my heart as it's organized by the Linux Foundation. And we are focused on permissioned blockchains. We have 16 different projects right now under the Hyperledger greenhouse. And the way that every Linux Foundation project is structured is that there is the open source community, everybody that is contributing to the coach, to the working groups, the special interest groups. And then there is the enterprise members who are contributing also financially to sustaining the projects as well as contributing to the code and contributing by using the frameworks and tools that are being developed by the open source community. So it's my pleasure today to have representatives of two of our member companies. We have Douglas, who is with Circular and Jojo, who is with ChainYard. So I will let you introduce yourselves. So please tell us who you are, what you do, and one fun fact about yourself. Douglas, let's start with you. Yes, hi and good morning, good afternoon to all of you. My name is Doug Johnson-Pernskine, I'm co-founder and chief executive of Circular. We are a three and a half year old business focused on the use of blockchain and a number of other technologies to bring greater transparency to industrial supply chains. So we work, for example, for car manufacturers, aircraft manufacturers to help them understand the source of raw materials that come with concerns around everything from child labour to environmental damage and increasingly using that flow of materials as a basis for helping to measure scope three carbon emissions embedded within the supply chain. Obviously manufacturing stuff generates an awful lot of carbon. So that's what we do. Little fun fact about me, I started my career in the Army as a bomb disposal officer. So about a thousand million miles away from what I do today. So I'm delighted to be involved in this panel today. Thank you. Great, thank you. Hi, good morning, good afternoon, everyone. My name is Jijo Joseph. I'm the vice president for blockchain services at Chaniard. So Chaniard is a blockchain services company based out of North Carolina and the US. So we started our blockchain journey starting to do the quality assurance of hyperlager fabric at the IBM labs. So over the last five years, we probably created more than 30 blockchain solutions. Majority of them are hyperlager fabric. I live out of Cochin. Some of you may know it's a coastal city in South India. There is no fun fact about me. People read my name as Gigo or many other things instead of Jijo. So it happened in my, when I got my school certificate out of 10th grade at high school. The professor misspelled my name. And I didn't try to change that because I thought, what's the name, right? But things become worse when I joined the college in India, one of the prestigious college, you know, all these students from all over the world are there. They started calling me garbage in garbage out. And it took me two years to figure out a counter. Says, you know, I am garbage in gold out of work around with that. Anyway, very nice to be part of the panel and I look forward to have some nice discussion. That's a brilliant story. Well, today's panel is supposed to be tackling the issues of climate action and accounting, sustainability and if distributed ledger technologies and if yes, then how are helping, fighting or helping with prevention of everything that is happening around climate right now. So why is climate change important to you personally? And to your company, what kind of, what did bring you to this panel? That's probably a weird question because I invited you to this panel, but why did I invite you? Juju, do you want to start? Yeah, yeah, so there's a famous, there's a famous quote, right? You know, we don't inherit that from our ancestors, right? We borrow it from our future children, right? So we as an individual, right? We have the obligation to give it the way back to our children, the way we took it, right? Without making much damage, like we already use the carbon footprint. So that is there in each employee's mind in our company. And being working on blockchain, you know, one thing we found that 40 to 60% of all the carbon footprint happened during the supply chain and blockchain is the one of the technologies that actually being a revolutionizing the supply chain. And we find a lot of innovation happening up there, right? And at this time, you know, people are working on the Paris Agreement to reduce two degree, right? So, you know, it is, it is an excitement to be, you know, part of this journey to make, I mean, if your contribution may be like 0.001 of that two degree, right? So, so, I know that is why the blockchain is very important to our company, especially for each one of us. Right, Douglas? Yeah, I mean, we obviously live in a time where our collective desire for stuff is driving a massive acceleration in, you know, our collective exploitation of people and planet and some of the poorest people in the world, you know, exist. And I'm thinking, for example, of child laborers in the supply chains for things like cobalt used in batteries and mica used in cosmetics, you know, massive exploitation of some of the poorest people in the world. And we all know, of course, that, you know, the process of turning raw materials into products like electric vehicles is enormously carbon intensive. And we've, you know, I think many of us were probably a little bit surprised during the period of lockdown earlier this year, as COVID swept across the world, how little, you know, our collective carbon footprint fell, about 7%, which is roughly what the Paris Agreement expects every year. And yes, we weren't travelling, we weren't using our cars so much, but the supply chains that we all rely on to manufacture stuff that we consume were still worrying. And that's a wake up lesson for us all. And so both, you know, both Giseaux and I are working with manufacturers in supply chain as a way of in an attempt to try and reduce the embedded carbon within those supply chains. So, you know, to echo the point that he made about our children's future, I completely agree I have young children, but actually we're now faced with a situation where some of these new technologies can start to help. Yeah, I didn't realise that it was just 7%. It's pretty scary when you think about it, because it's unsustainable to keep the world the way it was for 2020. So, yeah, so actually, since I have you here, could you please tell us a bit more about what you've done in circular around the sustainability? So we started the business and we'll talk more about how this applies to blockchain things in a second, but we started the business on the premise that new technologies can unlock old problems. And we were looking for a way to try and create trust in the enormously asymmetric world of supply chains. Imagine, you know, artisanal mining in the Congo or Rwanda, all the way through to, you know, global consumer electronics companies or car manufacturers, you know, in the US or Europe. And there is no central source of the truth and a lack of trust pervades these supply chains, particularly when you're worried about concerns around environmental damage or human rights abuses. And so that was the premise upon which we started the business. And then from 2018 onwards, we've been, you know, applying an evolving solution to trying to create reliable flows of materials through supply chains, attaching information about your due diligence in areas of concern in order that, for example, a car manufacturer can be confident where their raw materials have come from. But when you have a reliable chain of custody or a flow of materials from start to finish in a supply chain, you can attach other attributes to that data such as energy consumption, renewable energy versus non-renewable energy and essentially build up scope free emissions pictures for supply chains that are otherwise just based on lots of very funky modeling on quite old benchmark data, which is not a tool that enables people to actually buy smarter or reduce the carbon footprint of something like, for example, an electric vehicle battery, which, by the way, has an enormous embedded carbon footprint. I'll share a slide in a bit that shows, you know, how this kind of insight actually enables you to make cars better. Actually, OK, let's stick to what you're talking about. I don't want to break because you haven't clearly, you know, trained enough there. Hopefully you can see my screen. And there's just a couple of screenshots from our platform. And I'm just going to try and bring this to life. The first thing to say is because I appreciate that not everybody is an expert in supply chains. Supply chains aren't linear. There are lots of participants at, you know, tier five, tier four, tier three, tier two. And, you know, largely in that midstream of the supply chain, you know, the the relationships between participants are relatively fluid based on the availability of materials and their price, you know, obviously purchasing on price to an appropriate quality is common. So the picture of the bottom right here shows a representation of a real supply chain for cobalt, which is an essential ingredient of lithium ion batteries with on the left hand side, a whole pile of mines and on the right hand side, a car manufacturer. And over the sort of 10 months or so, and I'll refer to the graph in the background in a second and explain that, but over that set that period, every one of these participants was involved in some way at different points in time in the flow of materials. Now, each of these plants will be using a combination of renewable energy and non-renewable energy. Some will have carbon offsets. Some will have concerns around human rights. Some will have concerns around, you know, water use, for example. We're capturing data about each of these facilities. And then when you have a flow of materials, you understand the flow of materials through each of these participants over time. You can start to create a picture like the one behind it. So just to help you understand this, green bars represent a number of electric vehicle batteries manufactured, you know, same car model, same battery manufactured over time. And why are we talking about batteries? Well, we all believe the electric vehicles are better for the planet. And of course, they don't have tailpipe emissions. But what we've done is shifted the problem to the supply chain, the point at which you pick up a key, the keys to your new electric vehicle. There's an enormous amount of embedded carbon within that supply chain, about 70 per cent at the point of which you pick up the keys. And half of that is the battery. The battery manufacturing process is enormously carbon intensive. So in the first month and the last month in this graph, you can see very, very roughly similar number of batteries, actually slightly less in the last month. Compare the first month now, the blue and the yellow boxes, which represent the amount of energy consumed, renewable and non-renewable in the manufacture of those batteries. Compare that to the final month. Exactly four times higher. Real data, obviously slightly anonymized, but real data for a real car manufacturer for real batteries. And the reason for this huge difference is because of the flow of materials through the supply chain. In the first month, it happened to be through a whole pile of participants who were largely powering their operations with, you know, efficiently with renewable energy. And in the final month, you know, a far dirtier inverted commerce supply chain. That kind of insight provides the tools that the likes of car manufacturers need to buy smarter. And we could be talking about the manufacturer of anything, but fundamentally, before you spend billions on R&D to change battery chemistries and all the rest of it, actually just buying smarter can make a material difference. The amount of carbon dioxide generated in the manufacture of your goods. What I'm showing you here as a principle is now being applied in a variety of supply chains. We're doing it at the moment with sustainable nickel, where we're working now with a number of car manufacturers on exactly this to give them a tool to manage carbon, the embedded carbon within their supply chains. So that's your question. Wow, that's I know your solution, obviously. This is first time I'm seeing that. And that's very interesting. Gidjo, I obviously the world heard about know your supplier. We've or trust your supplier. We've done a lot of work on it and case studies. But you've also developed the rapid supplier and looking at how can trust your supplier move to sustainability. Could you tell us a bit more about it? Sure, sure. Thank you. So the rapid supplier was launched as a response to COVID in the United States, right? So it is based out based upon it's leveraging the trust your supplier and one of the IBM solution called IBM Sterling. So if I need to explain what rapid supplier is, you know, I need to take a minute and explain what is trust your supplier. I'm aware of it, but you muted yourself for a minute. OK, sure. My hand with that. OK, so. So trust your supplier. There's only two slides here. Let me see. OK. OK, I think you can see now. Yeah. So trust your supplier is actually nothing but the digital identity of a supplier. It is shared across multiple buyers and network. So this is a major issue in a procurement area in a supply chain where a buyer is trying to find, you know, a supplier. Then onboarding the supplier, then later, maintaining the supplier. So onboarding the supplier today is in a procurement world, take 30 days to even three months. Because we need to go for the process of validating that particular supplier, right? So the way it started is, let's say, one buyer asked a supplier to submit a set of data. You know, data could be his financial statement, his provenance of the data, or maybe his child labor is involved, you know, certificate of that, his environment rating, you know, all kinds of his insurance policies, his licenses, all those things, right? But none of the buyers will take that asses, but they send it for verifiers like Dunn and Broad Street, Tom's and Browett's, you know, those companies to verify that data, right? So once that verification comes, they onboard it. But after some time, you know, maybe after three months or maybe after six months, some of his registrations, some of his registrations expressed, then they need to resubmit and goes through that. The companies like IBM has 18,000 plus suppliers. You know, for them, it's a large process of managing, onboarding and managing the suppliers, right? Now, this, if you look at from the supplier's point of view, supplier is submitting the same data to multiple buyers. They're submitting the IBM, then they submit to Cisco, you know, if you wanted to be a supplier of Cisco, and, you know, continue, you know, that journey to like, there's some, some suppliers submit to 25 buyers, right? And it is a painful process for supplier to resubmit this data. So we thought about there is a good opportunity for creating a trusted identity of a supplier on a blockchain network and can be shared across multiple buyers. So we went and met IBM, IBM Bob Moffey, IBM chief procurement officer, he liked the idea. So we created this particular network. And so today, if you look at that network, it has a large set of buyers, like in the governance board, we have from JetBlue to UPS to Lenovo to IBM, Cisco, you know, on the financial market, we have JP Morgan, State Street, you know, American Express, a large set of people. But on top of that, the governance board, governance board is primarily buyers. We have large validators. These are the people who validate the data. We have like, Danon Bratsy, the COVID, he's rapid-rating, you know, those COVID is validate the environmental rating of the company. And there's a set of companies who actually use this data from the blockchain network and create new businesses on top of that, right? So what happened is like, so this is primarily trustee of suppliers. It's a digital identity to a supplier, can be used across multiple buyers in the network. Now, what happened was during this COVID time, right? This is my last slide. During the COVID time, there is a shortage of PPE in the, in all the personal protective equipments in the U.S. market. And a lot of the hospitals and buyers, organizations were trying to buy it from suppliers all over the world. And they were getting, you know, poor quality. They were getting, you know, lead time and they were not getting in time. You know, the availability was an issue. Lead time was an issue. So we quickly, IBM and Chania quickly thought, we have the identity, trusted identity of the supplier on the blockchain. And only thing missing is lead time and availability. Why don't we put combined these two using IBM sterling and the trustee of supplier and we launched rapid supplier connection where the hospitals and healthcare organizations, they could buy through trustee of supplier product, the PPE equipment. So this was a very successful, like more than 500 companies started buying, you know, buyers and sellers, they came in and started trading on this particular platform. Actually, this, we learned a lot of things from this COVID, you know, the one thing we learned was, trustee is the most important aspect during this such kind of event happened. And blockchain has, is the only solution actually can provide that trust in the market. And I'll cover more of such things later. So this was about the trustee of supplier, how trustee of supplier helped, sorry, rapid supplier, might help to, you know, manage a pandemic. Right. Well, that's interesting how you were also able to really apply something that was quite theoretical initially to realize a use case and something that was, you know, very urgent. Yeah. Yeah. So what we found is, if you have a solid platform like this, right? When such pandemics and such issues comes up, you know, you can quickly create new business models on top of it. Like think about a trustee of supplier with 100,000 plus supply is there in the network, then we can actually launch, you know, like new business models, like the COVID contact phrasing is an example. Like, you know, immediately people are able to, if you have, everybody has a digital identity, we could very quickly roll out that particular application on top of it. Yeah. So actually, Doug, speaking of kind of pivoting and finding new ways of doing things, I know that you have a very interesting model of built, well, working with your clients where most people are thinking about consortia, chain yard is also building some kind of a, you know, consortium or a network of users. Could you tell me a bit more about how Circular is doing it and, you know, how is it working or not working? Well, so, yes, I think it's working, but obviously by definition, a distributed ledger requires a network of participants to have any meaningful value. But what we tried to do, what we did do is avoid the approach of trying to build a formal consortium. Formal legal consortia take a long time to put together. The governance is a significant overhead and therefore, potentially, you also significantly slow down the speed of innovation. So the approach we took was to try and create a coalition rather than a formal consortium. And let me just illustrate what I mean by this. We, you know, one of our projects in the auto sector, we started with an anchor customer Volvo cars. And with that anchor customer, we started engaging battery suppliers and their tier one suppliers and their tier two tier three suppliers. And while they all contracted to sign up to use a platform, there was beyond the existing commercial relationships between those participants, there was no need for them all to join a consortium, which would have obviously slowed things down. As other car manufacturers that share the same battery manufacturers, you know, sign up to use the common platform, there doesn't have to be a formal relationship between, for example, Daimler, who, you know, with whom we've been working on this carbon tracking and of all their cars. Yet they both benefit from existing on a shared platform with shared supply chains, albeit obviously that there's segregation of data and information depending on, you know, what's going on within that supply chain. And the reason we went down that approach was speed. You know, this is a new technology being applied in new ways. You want people to innovate and you don't want to be tied up in bureaucracy. The other thing is that, and this is, you know, forgive me for a bit of prejudice, formal legal consortia don't often stand the test of time over the very long term. And so we were trying to look at ways in which one could do this, have the benefits of a network without the disadvantages of a formal consortium. Now, from a commercial perspective, I can see how some very large technology suppliers might like consortium because it locks their clients in. But most clients don't want to be locked in. They get locked in because they're happy and delighted and pleased with what they're getting, not because it's too damn difficult to move. That's, yeah, that's, as you know, I'm very impressed with that idea and that concept. I guess it also helps you to quite quickly pivot and change what you're working on and kind of expand, maybe not pivot but expand. We need to develop the roadmap. I mean, the purists, the blockchain purists will say that obviously, and we all remember the theory of the decentralized autonomous organization, the reality is most of us are using a combination of technologies of which distributed ledgers is just one. Someone has to be the system architect. Someone has to be the system integrator and someone has to be the system administrator. And of course that places a chain yard or a circular in a position of trust. We are obviously neutral actors in the supply, you know, I'm not involved in the auto supply chains as a supplier of anything except trust. And so, yes, it sort of goes against some of the true philosophy that was distributed ledgers, but actually it's using distributed ledgers as a tool alongside other technologies in the real world. We may get smarter at doing all of these things in future, but at the moment, this is working. A quick intervene, we have half time and I wanted to remind everybody listening and watching that you can ask questions. This is actually a live talk, so we are able to answer your questions as we go. Please use the chat or the Q&A or raise your hand. Any of the options is available, we are monitoring everything. So if you have questions, please do ask them. So Gijo, Mining Bitcoin and famously, is a similar amount of energy that of a medium sized town. It would seem like distributed ledger technology that is underlying the cryptocurrency would be terrible idea when it comes to sustainability and fighting climate change and all those things, right? Following the Paris Agreement. So why DLT and what are the values that DLT brings to the supply, sorry, to the climate action? So you started with the mining Bitcoin, right? I mean, so somebody brought to me this example in early days in the US gold rush, right? So when there were a lot of mining activities happening on gold mining, people actually used, somebody told me it was more than 10 million pounds of mercury was used for mining the gold. So all those mercury was spilled across all the river basins and all the water tables and everywhere it was spoiled, right? I mean, today in the case of Bitcoin, we use very similar, very similar pollution using electricity, I mean using proper work, right? So it is as equivalent to the mercury pollution that happened 100 to 200 years back. But so without fixing that, whatever we talk about, use DLT to create this, managing the climate change, because we are reaching around one percentage of the world's electricity usage for mining. Now we are reaching very close, correct me if I'm wrong. We're closing, I mean we're 0.5 to 0.6 or something and I think it's probably one percent there now. So that has to change. First and fundamental thing is, we need to change from the mining in Bitcoin to a matter of better work than the proper work, right? And the second aspect of your question is like, how DLT is actually helping? I mean, there are some that can give a lot of example, which comes, so I'm not getting that, that's his area, but there are two aspects I found, right? One is before DLT itself, there are a lot of projects that were happening, a lot of initiatives, like for deforestation, tracking carbon emissions, like tropical forest, salons, et cetera. And it never became successful and fundamentally is because the lingo is missing, from these initiatives to the end user, that market connection, that market lingo is missing. As an example, when I go to the market, I buy something, I didn't need to know where it was coming from. There was, there was a, you know, we never cared about that. Today, with this simple feature of transparency from blockchain, now I know where it is coming from. Now, I know how much carbon footprint it created. I can compare with the two product, not really on the quality of the product, but on the lesser carbon footprint. I can just scan my phone and the blockchain network will tell me that, right? So I can be more demanding. So this link was the missing link, which was created, you know, in the past, all these events failed because they never, they said, okay, we didn't cut that much trees as it was. I mean, we didn't create this product, but it was only a marketing slogan at that time. There was no direct link to the product we just created. And second and most important, that is first innovation, you know, the transparency aspect of the blockchain, which is creating that. The second aspect which I found was a blockchain bringing this unique way of incentivizing people with the coins, like, like tokenization aspect, right? As an example, let's say a solar coin or, you know, or a LED usage, you know, if you use LED, you save this much of solar or, or you, you have a, your own solar, the plant, you know, you built yourself, right? You can plug it directly onto the grid and start to power the grid, right? Each one megawatt is approximately 1500 pounds of carbon dioxide emission. So you are saving that much carbon dioxide. So you can be incentivized with a solar coin, you know, that or some kind of a token that can be used to, you know, monetize your effort. So, so this is creating, these two ways are creating in a lot of innovative methods. This is creating a lot of innovation for people to create new business models in using DLT to fight against the climate change. Right, Doug, actually, I have a question for you because well, you have kind of a physical solution used there, right? In the wild, if you're a Volvo, Daimler is working with you, everything's pretty amazing. How did it happen? Like, how did you come up with this and why did you decide to use distributed ledgers? Was it that circular, was it distributed ledger company? And so you wanted to apply it to this use case that you saw or maybe you had a problem and you chose a DLT and if so, then why did you choose a DLT? Yeah, sure. So this sounds a bit ridiculous, but in middle of 2017, I took a week off work because I'd first heard about blockchain and Bitcoin when I was a British telecom and I used to run the defense and security business there and my cryptographers were getting really excited in about 2010 about this thing called Bitcoin, which of course, like most of us possibly we haven't heard of in 2010. And sort of the thought started percolating that perhaps blockchain might have a use beyond cryptocurrencies. Of course, here we are in 2020, 10 years later and the answer is, of course it does, but that wasn't quite so obvious five years ago. And that thought was percolating. I took a week off work to try and, because you never really get time to think when you're working. And so I took a week off work and sat in my living room and spent some time actually working out whether I could find a use case where I thought there was a problem of scale that was going to significantly grow in magnitude that potentially distributed ledger could help solve. And that was the starting point. And of course, the growth in demand for lithium ion batteries because of the growth in demand for electric vehicles drives the sort of the exponential growth that we all now expect to see around electric vehicles. And I thought there are problems in these supply chains which are fundamentally problems of trust. And whether it is, can I trust the source of my cobalt because it's coming from the Congo which produces 60% of the world's cobalt and of course, child labor is endemic and a huge asymmetry between a car manufacturer in the US or Europe and an artisanal miner and by artisanal, I mean digging with a shovel an artisanal miner in the Congo. So how can one apply a distributed ledger either on its own or alongside other technologies to help improve trust in what is a very asymmetric problem and one that we as society have to get our heads around if we're going to drive the energy transition towards electric vehicles and that was the genesis of it. And one of the reasons we picked hyper ledger is because of your earlier question around energy use. One of the huge advantages of a private permission system using different consensus mechanisms other than mining is that it requires about as much energy to run as my laptop, which is the right answer because the idea of consuming close to 1% of the world's electricity demand for consensus is mildly insane, even if it is truly autonomous, et cetera, et cetera. And so that was one of the things that pushed us towards always being a fan of open source because of course you have many brains are better than one. And if I came up with a circular protocol, lots of people would question whether or not it was sensible. So it's much, much easier to piggyback off something like the kind of ledger. And although the intention was always to focus on COBOL which of course at the moment is our core business we're starting to branch out into other raw materials that have the same kind of problems. Our very first field trials and hyper ledger wrote a case study about this was actually tantalum which is a conflict mineral mind in places like Rwanda that finds its way into capacitors in your and my phone. Same problem, artisanal mining, huge corporates at the other end of the supply chain and a problem of trust. And we're basically taking that principle and trying to apply it in lots of different places now with some success. Circular, the name of the company which you can sort of see behind me on the wall is actually the Latin word for to come together in a group. So having talked about not creating formal consortia but creating networks, we picked the name for a reason. And of course, ultimately this is about coming together in networks. Just to add to that, you were saying, why did we use the DLT but could we do it without DLT, right? I mean, if there's a way to do without DLT I suggest do it that way because DLT, you should know the pull in DLT unnecessary unless you see very convincing reasons for that. Totally agree with you. Because actually, and the challenge of course is there is, if there was the United Nations Department of Responsible Sourcing, there would be someone you might trust to run a database except such a body, august body doesn't exist which is why something like a distributed ledger can help to build that distributed trust. Mm-hmm. Speaking of United Nations, do you know you're much deeper into this subject than I am? Do you know of any governments or pen national organizations are exploring usage of DLTs for climate, climate and energy and sustainability? Yes. So the World Economic Forum has been for a while running a sort of a panel if you like called Global Battery Alliance focused on this question of provenance of raw materials and also the circular economy for batteries and trying to create global standards. In Europe, the European Commission has been looking at distributed ledgers as a tool for carbon border adjustment taxes for demonstrating traceability of raw materials including things like recycled plastic which of course also raw materials going through transformation in a supply chain. So there are certainly in the space that I occupy I can see a number of examples that are coming even though they're not live yet. Yeah, I saw you must be knowing interval callings, right? Interval callings is, you know there's a sustainability initiative group. So they are developing a trusted solution for standardizing token based emissions accounting credits and offsetting. I mean, there's no standards exist today. So they actually they includes a framework and certification program they both for exchanging token based certificates and digital assets tied to greenhouse gas emissions. So that's a recent initiative which started. Do you know if anything is happening in India? So there were P2P energy trading was actually there were people were trying it out in a few educational institutions, right? Then on the energy side, I'm aware of only that but other than that, you know the Indians, the some of the states which started were going into the Nalanda codes and things in that plan but not on the energy carbon emission side. Right, right. I would remind the participants that you can ask questions anytime you can raise your hand, you can type in your question into the Q&A or the chat box. So that I don't know if you have any questions because I have a never ending list of questions that I really like talking to gentlemen. So while we wait for questions to come in what are some challenges that you faced with when building your solutions where they're more technological were there more governance issues I know? So I can start, I think that was kind of mentioning why he moved away from building a consortium, right? So I think the not just as what we found is from our consulting experience, right? Most people fail finding the right business model, right? The right business model that should incentivize the system, it should be a need for everyone joined the network, right? Rather than excitement, you know, even in this energy carbon footprint place, you know, everybody should benefit from it, right? So the right business model is a most important aspect. So in our case, in a trustier supplier we decided the only the suppliers would pay the network. The buyers would join for free and the buyers would bring in the suppliers into the network, right? So that and the second aspect is again, I was that was saying the creating the consortium and governance model, the challenges behind that. So it depends again if your business model is, we have seen smaller business model where you and only were some of your subset of NDAs are involved for cases like a dispute resolution and things like that. But if you're creating a large consortium, it took us more than one year for getting the primary agreements done with at least few of the initial set of it. And the governance model was also challenging. Luckily, we were able to get a and limit to 18 larger fortune 200 companies. And there were more people wanted to be in the governance board. And the more, and we found that there are challenges like if you get so many people at the beginning then it's very difficult for you to reach it in the consensus and agreement into what we should be doing. And if you have only smaller set of people who are not then there is an issue of people don't believe you, people don't trust you. So until we do an MVP, we found that you needed to have a, I mean, it's up to you. It depends on your use case and depends on how the market, like maybe a handful of people don't go for, dozens of people in the consortium. You develop some, then you take it to the market then you add more people to the network. The last one, one of the challenges we found that especially if your supply chain is closing the countries and the laws and regulations of each country is, we know, will they have an impact on your network, right? So, but each of those, each of those will get, as the time gets going, most of these things will get ironed out and we will have a better convergence on some of these challenges. How about you Douglas? What were the hardest problems? Getting a, finding a pioneer customer who's prepared to try something like this that's new and be first is obviously a challenge. And one of the interesting things is obviously both chain yard and circular sort of scale up businesses and, you know, we're kind of punching a little bit above our weight. And particularly in a field where there are a lot of people trying to work on creating solutions, how do you gain traction? How do you get one of those? How do you become one of those few people that gains traction? We focused ruthlessly on a particular problem and looked for a pioneer customer. In our case, it was Volvo cars, which is now an investor of ours as well. And we approached them and said, look, you know, we're working on this and we know that this is something you care about. And we'd obviously been talking to a number of other car manufacturers as well in parallel and said, are you willing to try and experiment? And they said, yes. And the rest has kind of, we've been a little bit lucky, you know, but there's always an element of luck in this, but also the idea of focusing on who has the problem and might be prepared to pay to solve it is the fundamental of any business. Yeah, I was actually recently talking to someone and giving exactly that example. You can't just offer services and wait for someone to tell you what services you should offer. You have to know what to offer. Actually, we have a question from the audience. Hiroyuki is asking, how much ratio does the blockchain-based technology currently cover the supply chain regarding climate change? It's very early days. So at the moment, these are mapped supply chains for specific car manufacturers. We currently have three soon to be four car manufacturers and they obviously have some overlaps in their suppliers, but it's early days. But of course, what we're trying to do is you get a few pioneer customers to do something, you have a few fast followers and then hopefully you establish a new benchmark where suddenly, you know, collecting certificates from your supply chain no longer is credible. You're establishing a new benchmark, others follow. That's the idea. So ask the same question in a year. We'll see how we get an exact percentage. I think blockchain is like cloud in the 15 years and 12 years back, right? When cloud was started, people were not believing, trusting it, right? So now people cannot think outside cloud. Every solution comes out, they ask with being cloud. So yeah, in a few years time the performance of the blockchain has been closed and there will be quite an expected. Mm-hmm. Yeah. Gigi, for you, as Douglas mentioned, chain yard and circular are rather scale-ups companies. You're not big on the market, but you have very big names in your portfolio now. How did you acquire your first customer? How did you build out the trustier supplier? So the trustier supplier, like Douglas said, so we did many solutions like, you know, before trustier supplier for our clients as a services company, then our CEO had this vision of, you know, we should be doing, you know, one solution by ourselves. Then we had three, four idea, like you are saying, you know, we were searching for the golden nail, you know, use the technology. And we found about this major issue in procurement area, right? So since we have been working with IBM at that time, we went and met Bob Murphy, the CPO of IBM, C-procurement officer. He liked it and he was a great supporter from the day one onwards. He had some 18,000 suppliers at that time, right, even today. So they know the day-to-day challenges of this particular problem boss. And the large companies are, you know, for the last 15, 10, 15 years, large companies are always looking for small companies to bring in the innovation so that they can take to the market with us. So we were at the right spot and met the right people and, you know, and become actually, trustier supplier became a really successful call. We have three minutes left. So it will have to be brief. But what is your hope for 2021 in terms of the further DLT or climate action activities? I'm seeing a transition now between, you know, blockchain and the hype and real working examples and the nature of the conversations that I have with customers now I don't even mention blockchain. In fact, I was on a pitch to a customer last week. And by the time we'd finished explaining what we did and how it works and all the rest of it, they said, why did you choose not to use a blockchain for this? We are using a blockchain. They said, but you didn't mention it. I didn't mention all any of the other technologies either. We'll talk about that later. And that's good because it actually shows a degree of maturity now or growing maturity about the technology. And it's not just a buzzword, it's a tool. And that's, I think that's good news. Yeah, I agree with you. Like, you know, I mean, you know, a few years back we used to save blockchain for unnecessarily everywhere. Like now we don't even use the word blockchain. We use, and even Cheneard as a, you know, we call, don't call ourselves a blockchain company anymore. We call ourselves a digital transformation company with blockchain as one of the tools to enable you. So that realization has some, that maturity has come. So the code has slowed down a little bit but not as we thought because, you know, we are seeing more companies are actually, seeing as we speak, more companies are actually getting on board with the new digital transformation blockchain. And blockchain is only 30% of the solution. And most of the clients, they don't get to see blockchain. They just see only friend and with the user interface and they ask me, where is blockchain? You know, sometimes. So that, they see only a small portion of it. And we have, yeah. And you know, IOT is always contributing to the blockchain, you know, and we validate the IOT and using the data from the blockchain for getting better intelligent. So the whole ecosystem has to be developed for a, you know, a better business model. Yeah. Well, this is a very good summary. And I'm glad that we, I had the opportunity to talk to you because I learned a lot. So thank you so much for joining me. And I thank you to the audience for staying on with us and listening to us. I hope you enjoyed it as much as I did. Have a safe day. Thank you very much. Thank you. Bye.