 Hello everyone and welcome to the 14th meeting of the Rural Affairs, Islands and Natural Environment Committee in 2022. Apologies have been received from the convener, findley carcel MSP, and we welcome Edward Mountain as a substitute. We also welcome Emma Harper MSP for part of the meeting when Jim Fairley has to leave for half-n stir for approximately 90 minutes. Maen nhw y gallu ei ddedig i ro Wass스� perceived geshedwng erdo Frontenol. I will be gone for about 90 minutes but I do intend to return and be brought up to date at the end so thank you very much. Thank you Jim. Before we begin can I remind those committee members using electronic devices to switch them to silent. Agenda item one our first item of business today is to decide whether to take item five in private are members agreed if participating remotely please type n into the chat box if you do not agree otherwise I will presume members are content. Moving on to our second item of business this morning it's an evidence session on the islands act annual report. I'm pleased to welcome to the meeting Mary Gougeon cabinet secretary for rural affairs and islands. I also welcome her officials Erica Clarkson head of islands policy and communities. Nicola Crook national islands plan team leader, Professor Francesco syndico, carbon neutral islands team leader, Scottish government and Phil Reigns. Could I now invite the cabinet secretary to make opening remarks. I really just wanted to start today by saying a few words about the Scottish Government's second annual report on our delivery of the national islands plan for 2021. The report outlines where progress has been made towards each specific commitment within the national islands plan and it details our projects and resource spend where that's appropriate. But first I really just want to acknowledge the support that we've received from stakeholders over the course of the past year. We've benefited from really vital collaborations with local authorities, with island stakeholders and communities themselves. We've lived and continue to live through really challenging times and approximately 12 weeks after we'd launched the national islands plan the country entered lockdown. Like so many other communities across Scotland, our islands faced unprecedented challenges, islanders experienced issues with supply chains, with transport and access to services. Covid-19 has had a deep and lasting impact on the health, wellbeing and finances of many islanders and we continue to work exceptionally hard to support them in the best way that we can. But now that we're slowly moving out of the Covid-19 pandemic, the stark rise in energy prices and the associated negative effects on the cost of living is creating a new set of challenges. Islands already face some of the highest levels of fuel poverty, which are being further impacted by the current energy crisis. Despite those challenging times, the national islands plan continues to provide Scottish Government with a real opportunity and a focus to improve the lives of people on islands. As you'll see in the annual report, I'm really pleased to see good progress across the national islands plan 13 strategic objectives. I don't have time to detail all the work that's been done on every single one of those objectives and commitments, but I just want to share with the committee a few of the highlights from the report. Firstly, we've launched a number of funding streams that have enabled island communities not only to better cope through Covid-19 but also develop innovative and transformational projects. And second, we're developing the islands bonds and that will play a role in tackling depopulation and promoting sustainable economic development on our islands. Third, we've launched the carbon neutral islands project that will support six islands in their efforts to reach net zero by 2040, and those islands will become climate trailblazers for all other Scottish islands too. And fourth, we're also continuing to work with Keira and Fair Isle on two major projects, which are transforming both islands in a really positive way, and I'll be happy to touch on other projects and activities in answering the committee's questions. I hope that some of those examples give you a bit of a flavour of the range and breadth of work that we've done in relation to the national islands plan. To conclude, the cost of living, child poverty, depopulation and the climate are just some of the critical areas that islands face. Scottish Government takes all of these seriously, and together with my colleagues across other portfolios, we'll spare no effort in tackling them decisively. Delivery of the national islands plan is a journey, and while we still have a way to go, it's also an opportunity to provide support and capacity to islands so that they can emerge from these challenging times as resilient and, ultimately, more sustainable communities. Thank you, cabinet secretary. What does the annual report say about the overall progress towards meeting the 13 strategic objectives and what extent it's already met population decline and transport services? You've already referenced fuel poverty, and you're not surprised that I'm interested in transport services. Yes, absolutely. I think that what you can see from the annual report when you go through it in terms of all the commitments that we've set out, we also set out where we are in relation to those commitments. There are a number of commitments within the report that have been completed, but there are also a number of other commitments where work is on-going, where we're not immediate actions that we can take to solve some of those problems. A lot of those issues have been on-going for a long time, and others we are working very hard to resolve as well. For example, in relation to some of the areas that you touched on there, whether that's in relation to transport and some of the other projects that we've been working on. In my opening comments, I touched on the Isle of Carrera project and the work that has been taking place there. Through our island's infrastructure fund, we awarded over half a million pounds to connect the length of the island, and we know that that's something that will have a tangible impact and will be very visible too. I also touched on one of the projects in relation to the Fair Isle and the Bird Observatory, where we'd also invested in that through the same programme, which will have a positive impact on the island itself as well as on the wider islands. Those are some of the tangible things that we can see, but again, there are huge pieces of work that are still under way, but we are continuing to make good progress. You touched on transport, there's population where there's a power of work that's under way at the moment too. I touched briefly on the island's bond, so work has been under way at pace on that. There's been extensive community engagement in relation to that, so we can develop a proposal that will work for our islands and for our island communities too. I don't know if officials would want to touch a bit further on that project if the committee would be interested in hearing a bit more on where we are with the island's bond. The island's bond itself is not something that we will solve depopulation on our islands. We know that there are many complex and different reasons responsible for that, so it's not seen as a silver bullet that will resolve the issues that we face, but it's certainly something that we believe can help if it's used in the right way. I'll hand over to officials if there's any further information. The committee would like some more information about the island's bond. There are so many questions that everybody wants to ask. If that comes up again, in the questions from other members, we can pick up on it then. I ask about the island's connectivity plan, which is going to replace the ferry's plan by the end of 2022. Orkney and Shetland's internal ferry services are excluded from the island's connectivity plan, so I wonder if you could explain the reason for excluding the Northern Isles in the plan and what can be done to provide communities with the lifeline ferry services that they desperately need. The plan is due to be to the successor to the ferry's plan, and I know that progress on that had been delayed because of the pandemic, but it will be progressing this year. I believe that a draft of the plan will be ready for consultation by the end of this year, and that's certainly the aim of that. In relation to the connectivity plan itself and the specific detail that you talked about there, I don't know if officials would have further information in relation to the issue that you've just raised. I think that we may need to take some of this back to our transport colleagues and write back to committee with some responses in terms of that data, but we are working closely with our transport Scotland colleagues on the development of the island's connectivity plan and listening very carefully to communities as we support that work. I know that they are being careful to take or give regard to aviation and to ferries and to fix links as well as connections and onward travel once folk have got off the islands. Thank you. I now invite Alasdair Allan for his questions. Thank you, convener. One of the strategic objectives that you and I think that the convener, cabinet secretary and the convener have touched on there, is fuel poverty and the work that the Scottish Government is doing around that. Can I ask how the work that the Scottish Government does on that relates to what's happening in the reserve sphere? Obviously, it's difficult to talk about fuel poverty without talking about transmission charges. For instance, if we're talking about renewables as part of the answer on the islands, it's difficult to overlook. Is it not the fact that energy companies in Scotland have to pay 7.36 per megawatt to connect to a national grid compared to most other countries around Europe where projects have to pay virtually nothing? Yes, you're absolutely right. There are undoubtedly challenges there. Of course, in relation to that, that's an area that's reserved to the UK Government too. Again, we continually try to engage and are engaging with Ofgem to raise these very significant issues in relation to that, because there are these extra, essentially penalties that we face in Scotland. Again, those are issues that we continue to raise with Ofgem and with the UK Government. I'm briefly related to that. Again, how do the strategic objectives around fuel poverty that you're working on in an island context relate to recent events around fuel price hike? I'm sure that other people representing islands here are more than aware of that as well, but certainly I'm very aware of the fact that heating oil, which is still the main source of heating in off-gas grid areas, seems to be accelerating on price even beyond the dizzy heights of other forms of fuel. How do you adjust policies as you go around those strategic objectives to make sure that you take account of what's happening at the UK level on that? That's a really important point, because it is something that we have to continue to monitor. Even since publishing the plan, things have escalated since then, and we have seen things get continually worse. I think that's where the monitoring of the plan itself and the objectives that we have and the commitments that we've set out is really important. The route map is also an important part of this process, too, which we will be looking to publish shortly, because that will set out in more detail the actions that we'll be taking to meet the commitments that have been set out within the plan. Again, this is something that we have regular communications with. We have a couple of different forums. We have the national islands plan delivery group. Again, they will be meeting quarterly to look at the route map, and we're in constant discussions with them. That's made up of our local authorities, with other third sector community representatives, as well. We also have the island strategic forum, where we engage with local authorities and their chief executives to talk about essentially how we can work together to try and address those challenges as they emerge. It's through that regular engagement that we can try and identify the issues that are emerging and hopefully try and address them. We also have a number of different strategies. We would obviously pass the fuel poverty act a couple of years ago. We have the fuel poverty strategy and a variety of different funds that we have in place to try and help those who are experiencing the worst of fuel poverty. However, there is no doubt that there are people living on our islands and our island communities who are feeling the pressure of this acutely. It's important that we do everything that we can in working across Government to try and tackle some of those issues. In the annual report, it mentions one of the objectives to work with policy colleagues to produce a national development plan for crofting, which will set the long-term strategic direction for crofting and ensure that there are plenty of new entrants in remote communities. When will the cabinet decide to bring forward crofting reform and how that will ensure a healthy turnover of crofting tenancies on our islands to create those opportunities for new entrants? Yes. Unfortunately, I can't give the committee a definitive date on when we would be bringing forward legislation. Ultimately, that will be up to the Parliament to decide as well when that comes forward. However, it is something that we've committed to doing because we know that there are issues that we need to address that had been raised through the previous parliamentary session. We are currently looking to work on that and to introduce legislation at some point, but in terms of definitive dates for that and to try to address some of those issues, I can't give the committee that at the moment. Also, in the annual report, another of the objectives is working with the Crofting Commission again to encourage that healthy turnover of crofting tenancies again to create the demand for new entrants. However, the Croft House grant has only given out half of the actual budget between 2016 and 2017 and 2021. It was £11 million. As you know, it's only distributed £6 million. Is there a reason for that? It's ultimately up to the demand in terms of the number of applications that we get to the Croft House grant scheme, too. Of course, it's something that we've committed to maintaining and supporting because we recognise that it's critical in helping to sustain our crofting communities, too. Can I seek clarity as to whether the islands bond will be used for young people to access crofting? We've been undertaking detailed engagement on the islands bond. We wouldn't want that to duplicate or cut across other initiatives that we have in government. It wouldn't make sense for that to happen, but I'll be happy to hand over to Erika to provide more information on that. We have been speaking to quite a lot of crofters through the islands bond consultation. It's becoming apparent through those discussions that we need to look a little bit deeper about how the bond might be able to support them with some of the smaller costs, like applications. I'm not very familiar with crofting policy, I'm afraid, but certainly we've been speaking with lots of crofters. Through the bond, we're looking at ways that we can work with the commission to perhaps enhance what they do with that in some way. I was specifically looking for detail because clearly crofters can't get a mortgage. Therefore, will the islands bond allow them to seek finance options for purchasing a croft? At the moment, through the consultation process, we're just now starting to analyse the responses that we've had and to set out the criteria for applying for the bond. We don't have that answer right now. I wonder if you can say any more about how many crofters have been helped, either through this route or through other routes, such as the Croft House Grant scheme, or whether that's on the increase? I'd be happy to get back to the committee with further information as to the amount that we've been funding through the Croft House Grant scheme and how many people we've assisted through that scheme as well, if that would be helpful. I have the privilege of representing our island buttes, so lots of amazing islands. Visiting them through Reference Carer Road has made a huge difference. Island communities are working together to find different solutions to each of their problems, such as housing, renewables, community land, ownership and asset ownership. Many of those fall under different ministerial portfolios, so I'm interested to hear how you work with your colleagues to ensure that the island specifics are included in all policy areas. As you can see from the strategic objectives that we have set out in the plan, it touches almost every other part of Government, so that's where it is really important in relation to my role in Government, how I engage with my colleagues to ensure that islands and for our rural areas as well that those considerations are taken into account when forming policy, but it's also where island community impact assessments are really important as well as part of the landmark legislation that was introduced a few years ago. It's obviously an obligation that must be undertaken, so I think that they are critical in that process too. However, I also engage with my ministerial colleagues in relation to some of the cross-cutting issues that we have. I think that another example of that, as well, I touched on in a previous response in relation to some of the different groups that we have for that continuous engagement. One is the island's strategic forum with local authorities, where we will often have another minister there as well from the relevant policy area to discuss those issues with local authorities and with chief executives, because I think that it's important to have that cross-portfolio working, so whether that's in transport, health, housing, we've had a variety of different ministers along to previous meetings, and I think that that engagement is really critical. However, I do see that as a vital part of my role in Government is ensuring that there are issues relating to islands that are a consideration across other portfolios. Thank you very much. You referenced in your introduction the impact of Covid-19 on island communities. Yes, like all of Scotland and the rest of the world, we've had negative impacts, but I also think that there have been really important learnings about how islands recognise their own resilience. Last week, I was at a community land Scotland event, which was looking at how asset management and asset ownership helped communities to pull together and find solutions. That's really positive. However, on the flip side of that, when I'm visiting islands, I often hear concerns that other stakeholders that are incorporated into the way that islands operate put up barriers to stop innovative ideas from islanders. I'm interested to know what the Scottish Government is able to do and what the islands team is able to do to help to produce that. Absolutely. I think that it's that working with other bodies is absolutely critical to trying to overcome some of those issues and, in terms of the objectives and commitments that we've set out, it's simply not possible for us to deliver them on our own or in isolation, nor would we want to. I think that it's really important that we work with other public bodies with our local authorities to try and overcome a lot of those issues, too. I think that, in relation to the impact of Covid-19 that you touched on as well, we'd also had research that was undertaken by JHI in relation to that to look at the impact. I think that there were many challenges that had been identified through part of that, but I think that one of the strengths was seen exactly what you've highlighted there in terms of the resilience and the strong community bonds that are there, too. I don't know if officials would have anything else to add either in relation to that work on JHI. Is that Francesco? I'm happy to say a few words on how the team can help to produce innovation and how to work together with the island communities. As you just mentioned, our Gallan Bute is just one of them, obviously. The amount of innovation, the amount of resilience that Covid-19 has highlighted has just been absolutely outstanding. The way we see it, and I obviously can talk more on behalf of the carbon neutral island project, is that it's very much of question of working with the communities. And now that the pandemic is slowing down and everything, we'll finally have also the opportunity to go back to the islands and to listen a lot. There needs to be a lot of learning and listening. The world has changed to some extent, and it's an opportunity through the project, through the bond, through so many other activities that we do to go back to the islands and re-establish that relationship that is really the foundation of what can then take the islands forward. Any community, but in particular the islands because of the work we do. One thing just to stress again what cabinet secretary said, the nature of the work we do is collaborative both within the islands but also in this building. Not just at cabinet secretary level, but I just want to emphasise that also at the officials level, we work very closely with our colleagues in government. That's the only way that these strategic objectives will ever be done, because we don't have the magic bullet, we don't have the silver bullet. So just to emphasise that and to reassure that we work very closely again to give you one example, there's a climate change wide committee, a climate change wide group within government and we are part of that and we bring the island voice and they hear us and we have developed those relationships and a lot of this is about these relationships. Obviously you need more than just a relationship, I know that, but it is an incredibly important foundation. I'll leave it to that cabinet secretary. Thank you. Thank you, Jenny. Can I move on to questions from Arrianne, please? Thank you, convener, and thank you so much for that last contribution. I didn't catch your name because I'm attending remotely and apologies to everyone for attending remotely. So I'm going to continue with the theme on improved outcomes during years one and two. The additional power request established a power for island local authorities to request devolution of specific functions, duties or responsibilities. This was attended to be a key mechanism to empower island councils and communities and yet I've not heard of it being used. Could I ask the cabinet secretary if you're aware of it being used or if there are any barriers which are inhibiting local authorities making use of this power? No, the power hasn't been used so far in relation to any potential barriers that would be inhibiting local authorities from using that power. I'm certainly not aware from the conversations that I've had that that's been that there are particular issues there unless officials have anything further to add on that point. Thank you for the question. I confirm that we've had no requests from any of our local authority partners for additional powers as yet, but we would welcome such a request. From a policy perspective, it would be quite exciting to take that forward. I work constructively through that process, too. Thanks very much. Do you think that the island councils are fully aware of it in all the busyness of their day-to-day work? Do you think that they've really taken on board that they've been given this power? I think so. Again, it's not something that I've had particularly, yet it's not an issue that I've been made aware of exists at the moment. I would presume that the island authorities are given by their very nature, and through the island's act itself that they would be aware that that power exists. I would like to think so anyway, but again, not aware of any potential barriers that they perceive are there in relation to using that power. Thanks for that response. I'm going to move on to another theme, which is around addressing population decline. It's encouraging to hear about the measures like repopulation zones, which aim to increase island populations, but I'm aware that not all population growth is equal, given that growth in older demographics can inflate house prices and crowd out young people. If the Government will roll out national repopulation zones, will they allow for a nuanced approach, such as focusing efforts on increasing population amongst the 18 to 40-year-olds and taking measures in line with achieving this more specific goal? I think that that's where there is so much work that's going on in this area. We've talked a bit about the island's bond and how that might complement some of the other measures that we're looking at in relation to that, too. Also, through the convention of the Highlands and Islands, we have a population working group on that as well. That's working with the Scottish Government, with the third sector, too, because, again, Francesco talked about collaboration and how important that is. Particularly when we're dealing with issues like this, that's where that collaboration is absolutely critical. We also, in Government, have an expert group on population and migration, and I know that they've been reconvened in March. That is part of the work that they're looking at in relation to zonal methodologies, and they've been commissioned to look at that to scope that out what boundaries might be, how it could be implemented, how it could be monitored, but it's important that we look at that, too. I don't know if officials would want to touch on the work of that working group. Just before a handover in relation to that point, it's also important to highlight just some of the other initiatives that we're working on. Obviously, we have a ministerial task force on population, which is due to meet this month, where we work across Government in considering all those issues, too. We have also announced that we would be taking forward rural visa pilot scheme. That is something that had been agreed by Sadiad Javid when he was Home Secretary at that time, based on the recommendations of the Migration Advisory Committee. I think that there are a number of different—we see this happening in countries all over the world—methods and means that are used in relation to migration. That's where we've established a working group to start to try and develop pilot proposals for that, as well. I think that the reasons behind depopulation are multifaceted and complex. We need to make sure that we get to grips with all that data, but we also try to find different initiatives to find a solution that will work for rural communities in Scotland. However, I will hand over to the officials if they have anything else to add. The only thing that I would probably add is just to pick up on the work that the ministerial task force is on population, which is being led by the Cabinet Secretary for Constitutional External Affairs and Culture. A lot of the work that we're involved in working with our colleagues who lead on that population programme work is, in essence, because it is such a multifaceted issue and because it is less about any one particular policy area or investment, it is about how you bring all those things together and how you sequence them for the needs of a particular place. We are giving a lot of serious thought to how you make that idea of a place-based approach very real. How do you take all those different initiatives, which are often national, which are sometimes regional-wide, but bring them together in a way that addresses whatever the population needs are of a particular place? That's not always as easy as it sounds, but we are working closely with colleagues—we will be working closely with co-high colleagues—about how we can take that forward in a very real way under the umbrella of that population work. Thank you very much for those responses. I think that one of the things that comes to me when I travel in the islands is, of course, the affordable housing issue. A piece that I'm beginning to discover, because there are so many aspects to that, as we have said many times, is that I'm encountering older people who are living maybe in homes that are too big for them. They want to downsize, but they don't want to leave their communities. I think that there's a piece in that mix, and I wonder what your thoughts are. Through MPF4, we're going to be having housing allocation across Scotland, but in the islands as well. If we could look at how we're doing housing differently, and I think that we've discussed it again during MPF4 evidence sessions in the past, the idea of clustered housing or clacken housing. I do get a sense that older people want to downsize, but they don't want to leave their communities. They're also feeling very isolated. I wonder if there's an opportunity for looking at a different model, and I think to pick up, Phil, your point that you just made about the placemaking is that clustered housing with shared community facilities could really push us in that good direction, and it could potentially free up housing that's bigger for younger people to move in, and if they want to start families and that kind of thing. Cabinet Secretary, I wonder what your thoughts are on that. I'm absolutely open to looking at that and considering that. I obviously want to listen to island communities as we like to develop proposals, because one of the key commitments that we have to is to develop a remote rural and islands housing action plan. So I can't give a definitive date for when that's going to be published yet, and that's led by my cabinet colleague, Shona Robison, but I think that that will be critical in trying to address some of those issues, because I think that no matter where I go as well, I know that we are just talking about travelling around the islands, and I think that undoubtedly whenever I'm out in our rural communities and our island communities, housing is raised as a critical issue in terms of the ability to retain young working-age people in a community, too. For example, we know that it's not always the case if there's a lack of jobs. We know that there can be job opportunities, but it's the ability to house people, which is frequently raised as a critical issue. I believe that the engagement work in relation to the action plan has commenced, but I'd be more than happy to feed that information back to ensure that that's part of the process, too. I know that there will be extensive engagement with our island communities, too, so that they can be a part of that process. Thank you for your thoughts on that. That's me for now. I'd like to come back in later on another theme. Before I move on to Jenny, just in terms of a population decline, we know how complex it is, and obviously better transport links can help to stop the outward flow. In terms of fixed links or tunnels, and we've seen what they can do in the likes of the Faroe Islands, where there's evidence of increased populations that have brought people out from the centre, I wonder what the cabinet secretary's view is. Do you see that as a policy change that could help to stop island depopulation? I know that issues related to that have been considered through the strategic transport projects review, and there has been consultation on that, which closed last month. I think that, as part of the work that has been done on that and the proposals there, there had been proposals for fixed links. I think that that was at the sounds of Barra and Harris, and I think that there's been extensive engagement in relation to the development of those proposals, too. I think that they form part of that. I don't know if officials would have anything further to add on that point, but I'd be happy to get back to the committee with further information. I have a quick comment on the Faroe experience. We tend to think that the fixed links and the depopulation are completely interconnected in the Faroe Islands. I'm not saying that it isn't, but the picture in the Faroe Islands is much more complex than that. The reasons for depopulation are related to—it's a bit like the National Islands plan—all the strategic objectives, not just one. Also, what you see in the Faroe Islands has been a historical development that relates to Denmark, the governance, and everything. I do think that we have a lot to learn from the Faroe Islands and other islands and countries in Northern Europe, but we also have to be very careful to understand that what works in Denmark, what works in Norway, and what works in the Faroe Islands in Iceland also has to do with their governance, with their setting, and with so many other things. Again, let me reassure you, particularly the project that I am leading on, that we are having a very close look to the likes of the Faroe Islands and other islands, because although we have a lot that is going on very well on our islands—innovation, as we were saying, and resilience—that we can share, there is always a lot that we can learn from, in particular from the Faroe Islands. I absolutely agree that we can always learn lessons and no point in reinventing the wheel. Jenny, a question from you. Thank you, convener. I feel that I am going to give you a kind of a road trip around the islands in my constituency. I was on Dura on Friday and it is experiencing population growth and also attracting younger populations. Quite rightly, the development trust and the community council are incredibly proud of the work that they have been doing. However, they raise concerns about volunteer fatigue and who is going to take the island on to the next stage. I would like to get your views and thoughts on how islands are not the same. Each of them has its own unique character. How is the work focusing on the differences across the islands? We can also talk about learning from other islands, too, as well as in our own community. Absolutely. You are right. First of all, it is just really interesting and quite exciting to hear about the work that is happening on Dura as well. I would be interested to find out more about that, but I completely understand the points that you have made, particularly in small communities, the volunteer fatigue and a lot of the same work, too. If there is anything that we can do to try and help to support initiatives that are under way there, I would be more than happy to take that away and look at it to see how we can support communities, because I think that that is a really exciting development that you have outlined. I want to follow on from some of the questions that Ariann was asking about housing. That was raised when I was on Dura. I know that you visited Collins Bay in the fantastic partnership that exists there between the community, the Scottish Government and the business, the salmon business. One of the suggestions that was raised on Dura was looking at how to raise the funds in community share ownership or wider share ownership of housing. There are lots of innovative ideas, and I am really pleased to hear that you are hoping to get out and listen. I hope that the listening is the short part and the action is the big part. I would be interested to know how you are planning to move ideas in those areas that are suggested by communities forward. It is vital that we capture that innovation and listen to those ideas. If there is a different way that we can make things work, it is really important that we consider that as well. It was brilliant to visit Collins Bay and to see the impact of a project like that, because, as I touched on in a previous response, it is not for lack of employment there. I think that it was Maui who were investing in the homes there, and that partnership between the three bodies was really critical. The housing there was really transformative, because I think that that was one thing that really hit home listening to the community there. It was just that you had somebody who spoke passionately there about having—our family had lived on Collins Bay for generations but yet she was living in a caravan because the majority of homes were either second homes and shutting young people out of accommodation when there are ample job opportunities available to it. I think that that was a really exciting initiative. Wherever we can do that and work with communities, I work with businesses as well, and I know that more are looking at that and what they can do to help to deliver affordable housing is really important. I want to make sure that we are capturing that innovation and different ideas. I am really listening to communities as to what is going to work and can be delivered there. I have a supplementary from Emma Harper. Then we will move on to questions from Alistair. Thanks, convener. I just want your microphone being unmuted. Just a quick supplementary. There is a comprehensive document around the islands of the European Union, and it talks about the state of playing future challenges. I am wondering, cabinet secretary, how do we work with our European neighbours now when we are not in the EU, when there is some comprehensive planning and work that has been taken forward to look at equivalent issues? If you want me to jump in and answer anyway. Obviously, now that we are out of the EU, the nature of that engagement is a bit more difficult. We are not members. We do not have exactly the same connections or involvement that we would have liked to have had and to maintain, but, of course, we still look to closely engage with our European neighbours and to engage particularly when there are issues that affect us all. I know that there will be similar challenges in other parts of the EU. We have talked about previous responses. We do not want to reinvent the wheel. I think that it is important to look at what is happening elsewhere and engaging with our European counterparts on that. As an example of that, at COP26, it was a great forum. I took part in an island's event and engaging with my equivalent ministers and other administrations in Europe and further afield to talk about similar challenges that we face and how we can look to address those. I think that continuing engagement is really important to see what learnings we can essentially take from each other. I want to stress that although Brexit happened and the EU was not as close as it was before, it is still possible to make those partnerships. Partnerships and collaboration with European islands, policy makers on European islands and other stakeholders on European islands and beyond is something that the team is developing. Obviously, I can speak more on the climate side, but islands are at the forefront of the climate struggle and climate action across Europe. Through the carbon neutrality project, we are not just wanting to share good practices and receive that learning but also lay a platform for Scottish companies, industry and universities, to continue to collaborate with our European partners. It is true that some funding streams may not be there anymore or not as conspicuous as before, but others are still there. It is a question of mapping what we can still tap into. Again, just to highlight, the island dimension there is so much that we can learn not just from Europe but from all around the world. There are organisations like GLISPA, the UN Sustainable Development Goals Islands Hub, where we are present. We are a very strong voice there because let's remember that in Europe there are only two countries that have an act, that have a plan, it's us and Croatia. Now, that doesn't mean we're better than any other, obviously not, but it does mean that we have a story and in implementing that story, those partners are actually looking at us and want to know what we're doing. So, okay, we're not part of the European Union informally, but actually from an island dimension we're very much at the heart of it. Thank you for that, Alasdair. I wonder if I could turn briefly to the island survey that was conducted and I'm going to return to the familiar theme here of housing but one of the things that came out of that seemed to be younger people expressing the complications that they experienced in coming back to an island after being away for education or work elsewhere. I wonder if you could say a bit more about how you feel that the Government can respond to that problem, given that, as we've heard, many islands face a labour shortage. Yeah, and that's obviously disappointing to hear that. I come out of the survey and we obviously want to encourage people to return and young islanders to come and return and live and work in our island communities, too. We know that, again, there are encounter a few different issues that also come out of that survey. You have an ageing population, we have younger people moving away and not returning and younger working age people, too, so it's important that we do what we can to try and address a lot of those. I know that there are various initiatives under way in relation to looking at student retention. We have to try and tackle some of those issues around housing. We know that that's a problem for people, the lack of affordable housing, connectivity, whether that's transport, whether that's digital connectivity, to making it as easy as possible for people to want to come to work and live and continue to stay in our island communities, so it's important that we really try and address a lot of those multifaceted issues. You mentioned housing and the work that's happened. Obviously, there's a lot of money going into social rented housing in the island communities just now. I wonder what you feel that the Government's plans can do to try and draw people together across different sectors to make that exercise work to the maximum? Obviously, we've got money going into social housing just now. What more do you feel can be done to listen to the needs of business though in all this? I think that one of the themes that's coming through is that we need to plan that housing around the future needs of business and the future population, not just the people in the housing waiting list just now. How do we work together across sectors to make sure that that kind of stuff happens? I think that that's really important. I think that touching on the example that Jenny Minto had raised as well, because that's where industry has actually been a critical part of solving some of those problems too. I think that it's, you know, they need to be part of that conversation. I certainly would hope through the remote, rural and island housing action plan that that engagement will be taking place because we've got to make sure that we're doing this and we're doing this in the right way and ensuring that we have that collaboration. Do you feel that there are opportunities outside what might be considered traditional solutions to this? I mean, there's plenty of empty houses as well that have been talked about. I mean, what can we do to make sure that we work, as I say, in a flexible way across sectors that, for instance, brings empty houses back into use? And what can we do to make sure that those empty houses come back into use in an affordable way? I think that that's where our planning policy is obviously important to that as well, in terms of what that would be encouraging. Obviously, we've had the session on NPF4 where there is the focus on that and a real focus on looking at vacant and derelict properties and trying to bring those back into use. So it's making sure that we knit these different strategies together and, again, that we are working collaboratively to ensure that we're delivering and providing affordable houses where they're needed by communities and also setting the needs of businesses both now and into the future, too. Finally, on this theme again, looking at the issues that were raised in the survey about housing and so forth, you mentioned yourself that the situation is very different from Ireland to Ireland. How does the Government intend to try and make sure that its response is tailored to those situations? Without going into all the examples that I could quote here, some islands have an oil industry, some islands have a fishing industry, some islands have a situation where they've got a shortage of housing. How do you make sure that an island's policy is tailored to those realities? You're absolutely right. Every island is different with its own unique set of challenges. I'm probably touching on a previous response to the data that we get as part of that, trying to tease out the detail to understand the different issues for particular communities. I think that some of those issues were drawn out as well through the engagement that has been taking place through the islands bond. Some people would prefer to see that mechanism working in a way that retains population, others would like to see that in a way that attracts people to come and live in particular communities, too. Again, that's where our engagement is. How we engage with island communities is really important so that we get that understanding so that, in developing policies, we're doing it in a way that is flexible and is going to work for individual communities. We're dealing in a situation where, with island's policies, it's not going to be one-size-fits-all, and it's that collaboration and that engagement that is really critical going forward. I would like to ask, in the context of Brexit, how the islands are quite individual, that they all have their own unique positives and challenges. With island communities being so dependent on tourism, fisheries and agriculture, we're seeing a lot of labour shortages due to Brexit at the moment. How has that impacted on those island sectors and does that have anything to do with impact on population decline? Undoubtedly, it's had a massive impact probably in all the areas that reside within my portfolio. I see that first hand and hear that particularly in my engagement with different communities and with different businesses as well because, as you've outlined, a lot of the industries that we see on our islands are the ones that have been most adversely affected, which means that it does probably disproportionately affect our islands more so than many others, particularly right across tourism, for example. There were added impacts of Covid through that too, but in relation to labour shortages right across the piece, whether that's tourism right through our food and drink businesses where they have really struggled and they're continuing to struggle with some critical labour shortages in a lot of areas. Down to, of course, we've lost the free movement of people, but also now with the additional barriers to business of trading with the EU, which has become a lot more difficult for people with the added layers of bureaucracy, the extra costs that they've had to incur as a result of that too, so that's undoubtedly had a huge impact right across the food and drink industries, which there are a lot of in our rural and island communities too. Of course, we're just discussing housing as well. How does that impact housing, sourcing materials and cost of materials as that affected the house building? Yeah, we know that, particularly I think we've been seeing the escalating costs for a while, and that's only getting worse rather than getting better, and we know that, again, that's something that does have a disproportional impact on our island communities too, because there's the extra transport costs in terms of getting materials to islands before projects can even begin, so there's already that extra financial burden that they have to face as opposed to in other areas in the mainland too. So, yeah, we do see the problem of increase costs. I've got a brief supplementary from Rachel Hamilton, and then we'll bring in Ariane Burgess. It's just on the back of what Cameron's saying. Obviously tourism, as she said, fisheries and agriculture are very important, and it's important that islanders can get things on and off islands, including people and goods. I just wondered why the island's plan hadn't mentioned ferries within it considering that they are integral to that particular part of the economy. Yes, I mean obviously we have the transport section within the annual report and the objectives within that and commitments that we've made in relation to that too, because you're absolutely right that connectivity is vital in getting goods and services to islands as well as for the basics of people accessing healthcare appointments and being able to live their day-to-day lives. Issues in relation to that, there's a number of pieces of work that have been on-going. I talked about the strategic transport projects review, the consultation that's been under way, and there's also the islands connectivity plan, which we're aiming to have the draft of that plan available for consultation towards the end of this year, where it'll be looking at the replacement to the ferries plan, but we'll be considering those issues. It's not a question convener, but I did meet the group from Shetland who said that the STPR2 doesn't include a plan for replacement of ferries for their ageing fleet, so it's important to recognise that all those interconnected policy aims are perhaps not connecting. Absolutely, and I know that that's a point that's been raised by the convener that we said we'd follow up on with transport colleagues. I was just waiting for the mic to be turned on. Professor Siddico, you began to speak to that. The SPICE briefing talks about the impact of EU exit, but one large impact not mentioned will be the loss of horizon funding and CAPEX infrastructure funding, which has transformed marine infrastructure on islands. I'd be interested to know what the Scottish Government will do to ensure parity of funding for islands from any new Scottish or UK funding streams. In terms of parity of funding, what we have expected and what we had hoped for has been the full replacement of EU funds that have been lost as a result of us no longer being members of the EU, but we haven't seen that fully implemented so far. Of course, we continue to use our resources as best we can, but I know that this is an example of raise with the committee before, when we look at Armarine Fund Scotland. We've used that, for example, provides £14 million of funding when that should have been around £62 million that we should have received. Obviously, with full replacement of EU funds, we'd be able to do a lot more than what we currently are at the moment. I move on to questions from Alasdair Allan. One of the issues that is of interest to me is workforce dispersal, since I know that that has been raised by the Government itself. Obviously, the world, as has been observed, has changed in terms of people's practices around where they work. What can the Scottish Government now do to give individuals the choice to work in an island setting, particularly in thinking of public agencies in the public sector? It's really important that we lead by example in that regard, too. The island's team is a perfect example of that. Since it was established in 2019, we have operated remote and hybrid working. Members of the island's team live on our islands, too, which is really important. I don't know if any of them would want to jump in at that point, but we're also setting up a working group to look at workforce dispersal, because I think that it is really important that we support people to live and work in our remote rural and island communities. We've also seen that through the Crofting Commission, and there have been specific development positions that have been available on our islands. We have our network of arped offices, too, but we're certainly keen to encourage that hybrid working, as well. For that hybrid working, to make sense, in an island setting, not everyone wants to work all week from home. Is part of that solution establishing or finding places where people can hot desk through the week, at least part of the week, so that people aren't stuck in the house all week? How do we make sure that there are facilities in island areas to do that, and what can we do to work with others to achieve it? I think that that's a really important point and something that we need to consider, especially now that more people are working. We would want to encourage more people to embrace hybrid working, as well. I don't know if there is a specific strand of work that's on going in relation to that at the moment, or if, Erika, do you want to come in, Mae? Thank you. I take advantage of the hybrid working option. I work and live in Orkney, and I spend some time in the arped office in Kirkwall and the rest of the time in my office shed in my garden, so I'm very lucky to be able to do that, and on other occasions, as needed, I'll travel further afield. That works very well. In the islands team, we are either, I think, mostly without exception, either islanders or islanders born who may have left or island experts, so we're very careful to make sure that we are able to put that lived experience into the work that we do. Through the islands bond work, we're looking at options around hubs for other sectors as well to be able to bring people together under one roof to be able to work in a hybrid way so that, as you say, not everyone is at home all the time. We're looking very closely at that. Thank you. I think that Alistair has made a good point about workforce dispersal, and if people are going to be working more at home, they need a digital connectivity. I think that I've always said that working from the outside is coming in, but there's still far too many more remote areas that have not got the connectivity that they need yet to allow everybody to have the opportunity of hybrid working if that's the option. I want to touch on that point now on digital connectivity. I completely agree with your point, because I think that we've got to have that infrastructure and ensure that there's that capability if we want people to live and work and embrace hybrid working too, but that's what I would outline through the R100 project, the extra investment that we've put in there to really try and develop and strengthen the digital infrastructure that we have as well. We also have the project where we'd committed to lay 16 subsea cables to improve connectivity, and I believe that those are due to be in place and delivered this year, which obviously will help too. We've been also involved in work on 5G, there's the 4G infill programme as well, where we've been installing more mobile infrastructure that we've funded nearly £30 million of investment in 55 non-spot areas. I'm with over half of those masks in place and delivered already, so we understand that there are improvements that need to be made, but we are working hard to deliver that. I think that that's given me the opportunity to highlight a situation in Falsa, in Shetland, where the subsea cable is going and not everyone on the island will be connected, so I have taken that up separately, but it's an issue that demonstrates that not everybody is being reached as anticipated. Given the work that you've described and there is clearly much more still to be done, but given the work that you've described and given the broadband of the internet is reserved, can you give an indication of roughly the balance of support that's come from the UK and the Scottish Governments to achieve in those things? I'd be happy to come back to the committee with the figures on that in terms of the funding that we've provided, because you're absolutely right, these are reserved areas. We've had to spend over and above to ensure that we are delivering as best we can and reaching either non-spot areas or improving that digital connectivity, because without that extra investment it just wouldn't have been seen as a priority and not rolled out near the extent that it has been at the moment, but again I'd be happy to come back to the committee with figures on that. In the annual report, it mentions plans for a working group to be formed initially looking at Scottish Government workforce and whether some civil service jobs could be undertaken across any area of Scotland. I just wondered if you could give us a bit of information about how the working group will be set up and who you envision as having a seat on that group? I probably have to turn to officials on that. I'm not too sure exactly what stage that work is at, so I don't know who would like to come in on that. Thank you for the question. We're working with our population colleagues on establishing that group, I believe, as part of the action plan that the cabinet secretary referenced earlier, but certainly we'd like to involve island voices in that, including members from our young islanders network, so that we can capture from them what it is that they need us to address. I suppose that it occurred to me, given that it will be looking specifically at civil service jobs, will there be an invitation to relevant trade unions to sit on that working group, for instance, PCS Scotland? I'll take that away to my population colleagues who are helping us with that work. I'll certainly put the question to them. Thanks, convener. I suppose that it's just to pick up on the digital questions that colleagues have asked about already. I'm reading on the Scottish Government's website that the R100 is implementing, I think, £600 million to support the reach 100 roll-out, and we've already talked about hot-desking or hub models, because I know that those models are already part of what's happening, not just on the islands but in other remote and rural areas, such as in Dumfries and Galloway, for instance. Are you confident that the digital infrastructure that we need will support people to work from home or hub partly, whether it's part-time or completely from what has been described? I just want to hear about how confident you are that we're going to have roll-out for the islands for better connectivity digitally. Yes. We're certainly planning for that to be the case and to ensure as well. Obviously, technology is changing all the time, and it's really important that whatever infrastructure we put in place is capable of handling any potential, is future-proofed, essentially, and can deal with any changes that there may be or upgrades into the future. I think that it's really important that we have made that extra investment, ensuring that we are reaching as many areas as we possibly can, and that's where that extra investment has been absolutely critical. Just a final piece up, then. Part of that working is with other stakeholders, such as local authorities, as you've highlighted. I'm reading about Headnet, which is a super-fast broadband provider for the small islands, Canarrom, Egg and Muck. Obviously, the Scottish Government will need to work with other stakeholders in order to engage and implement that roll-out as well. The member is absolutely right. As we've touched on in previous responses to you, it's that collaboration that's critical in terms of many of the policy areas that we look at and in terms of many of the objectives that we're looking to implement in the commitments that we have. Yes, working with our local authority partners, with different operators and with industry is really important. I'd like to move on to carbon neutral islands, if I may. My colleague Dr Allan mentioned about the differences in pricing mechanism. I think that the other side of that is the fact that our islands are brilliantly situated to contribute to the blue economy and renewable energy. Whether it's tidal power, community wind turbines, small hydropower schemes, Iona, working on a community heating scheme and, of course, the big W1 project of Isle and Tyre. I'd like to get some information as to how the Scottish Government is working and what they're doing to ensure that islands are supported in their drive to carbon neutrality. I think I'll probably start off this question. I know that Francesco has been desperate to come in and talk about the carbon neutral islands project, so I wouldn't want to steal his thunder for a moment. He's been working on this project in some detail, but that's what I think it is. It's a really exciting initiative, actually. We had increased our commitment, so initially we'd been looking to work with three islands to reach carbon neutrality by 2040 and then increase that to six islands. However, I also want to emphasise that, even though the focus is on six islands, we want to make sure that all islands benefit from that. It's exciting because it's our islands that are the forefront of innovation. When we see all the work that's happening in renewables right across our islands, we really want to capitalise on the opportunities that are there and work closely with islands in reaching carbon neutrality. We have an external working group that we're looking to identify the different criteria to identify which islands we should work with. I think that it's important that we get that mix as well. We'll have some that are quite advanced in the journey in terms of the work that they're undertaking, whereas I'm some that would potentially have a bit further to go, but with that I'll hand over to Francesco to provide a bit more detail. Thank you very much, cabinet secretary, and thank you very much for the question. So just a few points. The way I interpret this question is beyond just the carbon neutrality project. It's about these incredible abundant natural resources and how we can harness them in order to deal with the climate emergency. The key driver and the key principle of the project, of the carbon neutrality project, which is a programme for government commitment, is alignment and node application with what is already happening. Although we have to learn from other countries, again, we have a lot to share, a lot of good things have happened, and the climate emergency is an urgent thing, so we cannot rest on our alert, we have to do things, we have to take action. So first node application, but the second driver and the second principle if you want, is that it has to be done in a fair and just way. Going net zero can be seen also as a burden, can be seen as an expensive thing, and we need to find the right mix of policies of governance settings so that actually this works for all and leaves no one behind. So that's the second driver. The third is that it has to benefit all islands and not just the six that will receive more direct support. Now, when it comes to these resources, the wind energy, the turbines and so forth, let me just go back to your previous question, which I did not have the time to answer. You asked a very important question, which is, okay, learn, you know, listening is fine, but if it's an emergency, at some point you have to stop listening and take action. So let me just, in a few seconds, explain to you how and to the rest of the committee how we're planning to do that in the context of the project. So the first thing once the six islands are announced will be to work very closely with the communities and not just everybody within the community, all island-related stakeholders, businesses, community, the policy makers and so forth, the local authorities, obviously. Together with island-based organisations, partners who are embedded on the islands, we will develop community-informed climate plans. But you cannot have a plan if you don't know what the emission picture is, if you don't know what actually is happening when it comes to the emissions on Jura, on Isla, on Colonsey or wherever you are. And that requires in some cases some technical expertise. However, that technical expertise in some cases can be done by the community itself or there can be training so that the community itself can take it on, because this is not just a one-off. If we do a climate plan or a climate accounting in 2022 and then forget about it until 2040, that's not serious. So this will have to be done in a progressive and continuous way. That requires resources and requires time and so forth. Once we have the plan, which is informed by the climate accounting, we will carry out with the community, obviously, an island-rated stakeholders a climate investment strategy. And that is where, again, working with other areas of government and with other stakeholders will be crucial, because that's where the action will start. But action requires funding, but not only public funding. Public funding is one of the three streams that we're thinking. Net zero anywhere in the world cannot require just public funding. There's no country in the world that can do that, no island in the world that can probably do that. So the example of Cullinfave becomes very relevant. Promoting public-private partnership. There are plenty of examples out there in Europe, again, where in transport, in energy, or in housing, you have this public-private partnership. These things don't just happen, you have to nurture them, you have to learn about the good practices elsewhere. And the third is driving private investment. We have an incredible, we mentioned innovation on the islands. Innovation is not just about how to harness renewables. It's how to harness it in a way that drives profit, but also so that profit goes back into the community. That was a clear example of community renewables and so forth. There's such a landscape of initiatives already there of climate hubs that are coming up that the carbon neutrality project will leverage and will garner together and will provide that platform for the islands and the island communities. Thank you, that's very helpful. I was on Islay at the weekend and I visited one of the distilleries, Beaumaud distillery, and I know that the others on the island are also following plans. I spent a good couple of hours with the distillery manager who was telling me about the increase of his time that is actually spent on greening the process. So they've looked at transportation, water usage and power consumption, and they're currently looking at trying to improve the heating in the swimming pool, which is adjacent to them. So there's lots of projects going on. Whiskey is a really important industry to Scotland and contributes billions to the UK treasury. I'm interested to know what engagement the Scottish Government has had with the UK Government to ensure that areas like Islay get the appropriate investment to support that really important immediate work that they're doing to reduce the carbon footprints. Initially, I would probably touch on the point that Francesca made about the importance of the partnerships in that regard, and you're absolutely right. I think that there's a lot of exciting work happening in Islay at the moment, and I think that especially with these critical industries, I think that also when they're looking at their own sustainability and the impact that that has right through their supply chain as well, I think that they are showing a positive lead in terms of the work that they're taking and I think that ensuring that we work with them is critical and again ensuring that we're not duplicating anything that's taken place, but how we can really support that work to happen as well is really important. Just to highlight as well that obviously, and we are fully aware of this, there are growth deals out there. Obviously, we mentioned often the island's growth deal, but you also have our Gallan Bute growth deal, which focuses also on Islay, and this is co-financing between the Scottish Government and the UK Government. Just to finish up, I mean the distilleries, but also other areas, you mentioned the swimming pool. This is about co-benefits. We obviously want to deal with the climate emergency for the climate, but not just because of the climate, because net zero done well will provide energy, will provide means to tackle fuel poverty, which is what we were discussing before. It will provide those community benefits, which will make a net zero island more attractive. Also, the repopulation in a way brings back to that. I just wanted to highlight that. Will the announcement of the six carbon neutral islands be soon, like six months, year, two years? It will be soon. Obviously, I won't be making any announcements today and it will understand why the Government hasn't made any announcements over the previous weeks and that on up to the local election campaign, but it will be made soon. Thank you, convener. I remember watching this bill come through this committee at stage one and stage two and in the Parliament at stage three. One of the criticisms that was raised were questions that were raised was whether island impact assessments would be worthwhile and carried out properly or would come as a tick box exercise. The Professor said that there were multifaceted reasons for population decline, but I would suggest that connectivity, health, education and quality of life is what keeps people on the island. Let's look at health to start with. Mental health issues can be a real problem in rural areas and islands do not necessarily have mental health experts. They have to be brought into the islands and they do not always make it because the ferries are not there or there are no ferries available or the weather. My question to you, cabinet secretary, is on health. Are you aware of how many island impact assessments have been carried out in relation to the changes of health provision on the islands in the past year? I do not have figures on that. I do not know if the team would be able to answer that, but I would be happy to come back to the committee with more information. My question is that we know, for example, that when we went to Shetland, people travelled up for, or it could have been Orkney, but the mental health professionals travelled up on a Tuesday and that did not always happen on a Tuesday and sometimes there were two or three weeks delays. That really is a serious issue and I am not aware of the health boards carrying out impact assessments for the failure to provide healthcare and I would be helpful to have that. My next question is a little bit more peracial, if I may. Rase, for example, relies on the goodwill of CalMac to deliver parcels out. They are dropped off at the terminal and dropped onto the island when the ferry comes over. CalMac is stopping that service because they say that it costs £250,000 a year to run. I am not sure where they got that figure from a man in a white van or a lady in a white van would not cost a quarter of a million pounds to run, but to get Amazon parcels or not to get the shopping delivered over to Rase is a real problem. It happens on other islands and CalMac are being very iffy about it. I have looked at their impact assessment and it brings my greatest fear that it is a tick box exercise that cannot be justified. Are you convinced, on a more general point, Cabinet Secretary, that island impact assessments for change of services are being done properly? If you are unable to give an answer, have you looked at a few and responded to the committee to confirm that they are? I fear they are not. We certainly do not want island community impact assessments to be a tick box exercise because we would really defeat the purpose of why they were introduced in the first place but, if there are any particular examples, such as the one that you have raised or any other members are aware of, I am pleased to write to me and raise them. I am more than happy to look at those more detail. I do not have the detail of that community impact assessment, so I am not able to give a view on that today, but I am more than happy to follow that up with you as well. I do know that there is the option there for a local authorities to ask for a review of an island community impact assessment, so that option is available. I am happy to look at those specific examples. Those would demonstrate the fact that I believe that they are becoming tick box exercises and I believe that it is a failure of the legislation to make sure that they are being done. I would like to see in the report some confirmation from the cabinet secretary in future that island impact assessments are being carried out with the spirit that they were implemented in and under the legislation. The Scottish Government has committed to engaging with local authorities and island communities in developing regulations and guidance for the bus services provisions under the Transport Act. As the cabinet secretary will be well aware, the act gives local authorities power to bring busses into municipal ownership, but given the geographical challenges on the islands and issues around passenger demand, I was wondering if you could tell us what additional support the Scottish Government plans to provide in order that local authorities can deliver publicly run bus services, should they wish to? I mean, I do know that the bus provisions had been delayed because of the pandemic and because of on-going work with Brexit as well and we were due to engage with local authorities and with communities on that too, but I'd be happy to take that away and look at that issue in particular and see what more support we can provide in that regard. Thank you very much. Is that going to be published by the end of this year? Yes, that's the intention that the draft plan would be published by the end of this year and available for consultation at that point. And are you able to give a commitment that ferry services will remain in public ownership as part of that connectivity plan? As a Government, we've already given that commitment anyway. I'm happy to provide that assurance again today. Brilliant, thank you very much. I don't know if I've got time to ask one on housing as well, strategic objective 4. I was just wondering what recent assessment the Scottish Government's made of private rent levels on the islands and whether rents are higher or lower on average than compared to the national statistics. I do know that in terms of finding affordable housing that is an increasing issue for people that live in our island communities. I don't know whether officials here today would have any further information on that but again that's something I'd be happy to raise with my cabinet colleagues and get back to the member committee with further information and more detail on that. I don't have the figures in front of me today but Erika? We don't have those figures but Nicola and I can work together on the next situation of the island survey to make sure that we capture or include some work around that and we'll do that in collaboration with our housing colleagues and report back. I was wondering, just related to that, what work has there been to explore whether a rent freeze for social and council tenants could be implemented on the islands? I don't know if the Scottish Government has spoken to local authorities on islands about that. I don't think that the islands team won't have done that, I would have to check with housing colleagues to see if that's something or a piece of work that they've undertaken. Have you looked at how a rent freeze might benefit private tenants on islands? Again, that's something that we'd have to check with housing policy. Thank you. We have a question from Emma and just for the record Emma is no longer substituted as Jim has returned to the meeting about a question from Emma and it's green. It appears to have frozen. Can we move on then? We have a question from Karen. If we can come back to Emma, we will hope. I'd like to ask, in terms of the roll out of the £30 million islands programme, can you unpack the nature of the projects and also touch upon the partnership work that's under way specifically how the Scottish Futures Trust will support the Scottish Government in the delivery of the programme? We'd committed to £30 million worth of investment over the course of five years. We delivered the first part of that last year, which was about £9.5 million worth of funding investment. Last year, the programme worked over three different strands. We had the infrastructure investment fund, the communities fund, which communities themselves could look to bid into. There were grants available of up to £150,000 available through that as well. We also had the healthy islands fund too, so that was just over £1 million worth of funding to look at projects that would help to support the health and wellbeing of people on our islands. We've obviously taken some of the learning from that, listened to our local authorities colleagues in terms of looking at shaping what the programme will look like this year. I was at committee for the budget session at the start of the year this year where we announced £4 million worth of funding for the programme this year. This year it will be different and it will be done on the basis of competitive bids to the funding. Again, that is based on feedback that we had received previously. In terms of some of the projects, I said a bit about the work that had been done in Kerorun and the impact that we had seen there as well. In terms of the infrastructure fund, there is also the money that we have committed to the Fair Isle Bird Observatory and the rest of the funding available as part of that was allocated to the different island authorities. However, I do not know if anybody would want to come in in terms of some of the other projects that we have seen feed through the different strands of the fund. As the cabinet secretary said, we have had numerous projects that have come through last year and it is probably useful to note that we launched this year's on the 21st of March. It will be run as a competitive process moving forward. We felt that it was very successful the last year's one. There were numerous community projects and it was very much community focus and community level for both the Healthy Islands Fund and the Islands Communities Fund. Moving forward, we are hoping to still be able to work with our local authorities as lead applicants whilst having bids from communities coming in. On your point about the Scottish Futures Trust, it is in with its expertise to manage the fund for us and the relation sets with us and our local authorities to bring those together, while also making sure that we leverage funding from other areas of government that they have expertise with to make sure that we get the best value for the money that we have and the money that we are able to source from other areas. Will the annual report be a guide for future fiscal decisions? I think that it is really important that we take the learning as we go through from the previous rounds of funding that we have had as well as looking at the annual report. I do think that that does feed into how we will be looking to shape funds going into the future, too. It is also useful to note that we are running it by our national islands plan delivery group, which will support any funding decisions that we are making. I think that we have Emma Back, so we have a question from Emma. Thanks, convener. I apologise that the internet dropped off there. It is just a question about the impact of Covid on the progress towards meeting the 13 strategic objectives, because we cannot forget that we have just had two and a half years pandemic that has impacted probably everybody's lives. Just to pick on the point that Edward Mountain made about seeing mental health professionals, for instance, I know that when we took evidence at health committee that digital connectivity did support engagement in the mental health aspect, although we cannot forget the importance of face-to-face appointments. How has Covid-19 impacted island communities and the progress towards meeting the 13 strategic objectives in the plan? I think that it has undoubtedly had an impact. Obviously, resource had to completely pivot to help to try to deal with the pandemic as well as with EU exit as well. That is where I think that even in spite of that, you can see from the annual report that some actions have been completed, but we have made good progress right across the piece when it comes to the strategic objectives. While some particular pieces of work either had to be put on hold or had to be delayed because of the pandemic, in spite of that, we have managed to make really good progress across all those different areas, too. Just coming back to the point that the member has raised on healthcare as well, I think that through the pandemic, like in a lot of other areas, we saw the innovations that have been able to see rolled out. I think that the NHS near me has been a particular success in relation to that, which has been rolled out across all health board areas as well. There have also been some other developments in relation to our healthcare, too. I think that in relation to diabetes, for example, a test of change pilot has been rolled out as well throughout this period. I do think that we have been fairly successful, I think, in working across the objectives despite the indicted impact that the pandemic has had. Does there need to be a slight revision or any slight renewal of the plan to acknowledge the Covid pandemic? The plan was launched 12 weeks before the pandemic, as you mentioned in your opening statement, so that people are aware that, yes, there has been an impact but progress has been made in certain areas. Does that need to be tweaked at all? That is where the implementation of it and the monitoring of the plan is really important. I touched on a response earlier about the route map that we would be setting out, looking at the detailed actions that we will be taking in relation to each of the commitments, so that will be published shortly as well. I know that we have also talked about the island strategic forum. We have the national islands plan delivery group as well, who will be continuing to monitor that and to ensure that we are dealing with the challenges as they are being experienced by our island communities. By continuing that collaboration and getting that feedback, I think that what we have set out in the plan and the actions that we are taking will be relevant. The route map will be a living document, so that will have to change. We can see that every day just now. We see that with the cost of living, in terms of fuel poverty, the different challenges that can be thrown at us at the last minute. It is important that we have a plan that can adapt to that and adjust to it as necessary. In 2020, we also undertook a national islands plan through a Covid-lens survey with our local authorities, which asked them to identify any key strategic objectives that they thought were particularly relevant in light of Covid. We were quite reassured by that that plan was still relevant at that time. I am conscious that we have reached our allocated time, but Jim Fairlie has a question that he would like to put to you. My applause, I feel like I'm gate-crashing on party coming in, I'm going out again. It's a technical question, I think, for Professor Sanchezko. Alistair Allan alluded to earlier on about the connection charges for getting the island communities connected to the credit cost more to actually connect from an island than it does mainland or down south. Is there an opportunity, given the renewable capability of the island communities, to do something that would have done at egg to create community energy systems that do not require us to have permission from anybody else to connect to actually allow the islands to take advantage of their natural resources without being constrained? The opportunity is definitely out there, especially for the so-called off-grid islands. So you mentioned egg, you have the likes of fula, a ferail. There are a number of, especially the smaller, if you want islands that either are already experiencing it or that are looking at it very closely, especially through the support of CARES. When it comes to a slightly bigger island, the technology probably will get there quite soon. Again, it's a question of governance. It's a question of governance, the off-gym situation and so forth. I think I'll leave it to that, but I'm happy to take it back also to our colleagues within government that deal with these more energy and the regulatory side. In short, the opportunity is definitely there. Some communities are looking at it very closely, are looking at examples from ag and so forth, but it's a bit like the faro situation. It's a complex landscape. I promise that it's very brief against us, but it's directed to you, Francesco. We've got one title, we've got all these renewable energies. What role do you see energy from waste playing in our future ability to be net zero? Everything counts. What I mean by that is that, obviously, biomass and the circular economy and energy coming from the use of waste needs to be looked at. For example, one of the activities in the carbon neutrality project has been a scoping exercise to look at projects elsewhere. Again, I promise we don't only look at the faro islands, but this came from the faro islands. It was a very interesting project where, again, public-private partnership, the salmon industry in the island and the waste coming from the salmon industry was providing energy and heat to a certain number of houses in Torshaw and the capital of the faro islands. Definitely, there's a scope for that as well. Thank you. I'd like to thank the cabinet secretary and officials for joining us this morning and for the helpful advice provided. We'll now have a short suspension to allow our witnesses to leave. I suspend the meeting. Our third item of business today is consideration of the official controls transitional staging period, miscellaneous amendments, Scotland regulations 2022, SSI 2022-90. The instrument has been made using powers under the European Union Withdrawal Act 2018. The process for consideration of instruments laid under the European Union Withdrawal Act consists of two parts. First, the committee must agree whether it's content that the parliamentary procedure designated to the instrument by the Scottish Government is appropriate, and I refer members to paper 3 from page 14 of your briefing pack. The Scottish Government has designated the negative procedure for this SSI. Are members content that the negative parliamentary procedure designated to the instrument by the Scottish Government is appropriate? Please raise your hand or type an R in the chat box if participating remotely. No comments? Mercedes? No? Okay. Turning now to the policy of the instrument. Does any member have any comments on the instrument? Please raise your hand or type an R in the chat box if participating remotely. Members will have seen the proposal set out on page 17 of the members pack. Are members content to write to the Scottish Government to ask why the Scottish Government considers it necessary to introduce this exemption, which, unless the transitional staging period is extended for a fourth time, would only be in place for approximately six weeks between 12 May and 30 June 2022, and for an update regarding the transitional staging period beyond 30 June 2022? Rachel? I'm content with that convener. However, can we make it specific that we ask the Government what the impact is of the exemption? It says why the Scottish Government feels it necessary to introduce exemption, but what would be the impact if the exemption wasn't there? Yep, we can do that. Thank you. If there are no other comments, that concludes our business in public and we might now move into private session.