 I was waiting for the other Jordy to sit down. Hello and good evening, good afternoon, it is my pleasure to be sharing this workshop, this online workshop organized under the leadership of the Barcelona City Council Department for Historic Memory and myself, the Director of the Observatory for Democratic Memory. Well, we organized this session called Colour Nealism Heritage and Colonial Heritage in Barcelona today. Today, this workshop counts on the participation of all the team of the department, Monsenista, by the way, I would like to say hello to Monsenista from the born central culture in Amoria, Barcelona. As a result of the COVID-19 pandemic, the workshop will have to be tied out online, the conference will have to be 100% online and not only us, the speakers but also the participants can follow us through Zoom and the session will also be broadcasted through a YouTube. There are two sessions, one in OV and another one in English from the European Memories Observatory of Universitat de Barcelona where we have been working for quite a long time now on international conflict and the main problems that public policies on democratic memory are going through. And we also have networks in Latin America, not only in Europe and other parts of the world, and the aim is to come up with projects to remember, right, to have memory at the center, placing of course the focus in our own geographies but also by working together with partners from all around the world. And we also want to of course place the focus on the situation in Barcelona and to enhance our collaboration with Barcelona, city council, the majority of us, well, we live in cities and we experience conflict with our own past and with the public space which is the forum where cities experience their crisis or conflicts but also where they share values and where we socialize the debate on this colonialist inheritance is a discussion that has gained stamina during the lockdown I would say this summer. Well, after the lockdown rather, but also in Barcelona. Well, the focus has been placed in historic memory for quite a long time now as you know, a statue of Antonio Lopez was withdrawn in Barcelona through a public participation process of course Barcelona has a very dark past. And I believe that we should not be accepting our past or at least not accepting it proudly. As you know in the US, there are many world forums where social movements and unrest are somehow laying this conflict on the table and Jordan Robassa the representative of the Barcelona City Council will tell us more about this point right. Of course it needs to be a public agenda that somehow facilitates the process of recovering democratic historic memory at the global level. It's been now a while that professors and academics from all around the world focus on the fact that the colonial past in Europe has contributed to the idea of European is one would say. I would say that one. Well, here in Europe we're rather Eurocentric and I am sure that in the upcoming three days will be discussing about Euro centricity and unfortunately we are still victims of racism and xenophobia against migrants and citizens from different parts of the world. So I'm sure that the topic will be on the table in the next few days I would like to thank by the way all the speakers for accepting this session. And I don't know if these policies for democratic memories can be enhanced or push forward from institutions and well I don't know to what extent these are prophylactic measures and can somehow respond to today's problems. No, thankfully or unfortunately, there is an increasing number of political parties represented in parliaments that are extreme right wing and somehow they feed such narratives and discussions. The observatory on in hand with the city council has accepted the challenge to celebrate the conference to discuss about the colonial past and the very important repercussions at the past has had on the present. And we'll also be discussing because of course. There's on one hand, the symbolic rule of the statue of Mr. Lopez, but also there's another big dilemma that Barcelona faces which is the monument to crystal ball the colon. And of course we wanted to play this easy word game this literal word game to entitle the session colonialism right. I don't want to take more of your time because for sure the important part is when we hand it over to experts. So let's go for it. Thank you very much to all the participants, Jordan Robassa beginning the floor to Jordan Robassa right away from the department for historic memory of Barcelona city council thank you very much for the initiative and please grade your team and thank them for their work and I don't know if we haven't had the chance to count on the participation of Monsenius the water pity. I would like to thank her as well. I would like to thank my team record for his men's work or you'll who will be facilitating the first presentation and more importantly Dr. Celeste Munoz for her facilitation of the session and Fernanda for the logistics Sylvia Pala, the interpreter and his colleague her colleague, the online interpretation thing and I don't know to what extent it is easy or not. For us, teachers, it's sometimes difficult to teach online so I don't know about interpreters, it's a curiosity that I have and well of course thank you very much to all the participants from different countries. It's a pleasure to host you and for sure this will be a critical moment right and for sure it's not going to end here because the debate on uncomfortable memories, memories related to colonialism and symbolic moments related to our country and in our continuum. Thank you very much and Jodie Rapassa, the floor is now yours. Thank you very much Jodie, thank you very much for your kind works and for your kind introduction. Thank you very much for all the work on your side on a room's side to prepare the session we are 100% convinced that the session will be worth it. This session, this workshop will be foot for thought to critically rethink public space to question the art that we place in our public places and that companies ask citizens of Barcelona. As you said before, I am the representative of Ciutadilla, a neighborhood in Barcelona, a very central neighborhood in Barcelona, a neighborhood where all migrants have traditionally rich and where more of the population live. When we think about what represents us, it's clear that things have been changing radically in the last few years compared to when some statues and monuments were raised that aimed at representing power, right? Monuments are always a representation of dominant classes of ruling classes. If history is written by the, I mean, who are the winners? Who have been the winners? Sorry, if history is written by winners, that's what I wanted to mean. Who are those that have been defeated? Who were the defeated ones when Antonio López Monument was raised and where are the defeated today? There's no doubt that in Barcelona there are many parts that could be considered defeated, but of course it has to do with social class, to turn social classes. Antonio López Monument was already offensive when his Monument was raised, but today it's even more uncomfortable to have a Monument of his. He represents exploitation, racism, colonialism and imperialism. That's why we need to think who is watching at public art here today in Barcelona and how can we challenge amongst us all the different historic narratives and the narratives that somehow want to tell us about the official city. Again, we challenge these narratives. So this workshop follows the logics of a workshop that was carried out a couple of years ago under the commission and by the commissioner Ricard Dignas who implemented a couple of workshops on colonialism to open a reflection about the topic about colonialism. And that concluded, even if it's not 100% true, well this seminar somehow drew this laughing. Well, as a result of the workshop, the Monument was withdrawn from Antonio López Square, but there is still an Antonio López Square and I'm to be blamed, although my best to change this situation. This is a continuation of these two workshops on colonialism and we decided to celebrate this conference after understanding that in Chile, the popular unrest and the popular demonstrations focused very much on the action against Monuments, which ended up with, I mean, covered by graffiti. And by, they were like dressed up Monuments were dressed up in the Chilean unrest demonstration so Chile was a first source of inspiration, but then came the Black Lives Matter movement and with eight different actions where carried out and imposed on colonialist Monuments and statues. What do these statues represent today and what did they represent when they were raised? What was the Barcelona that these Monuments wanted to broadcast? Because of course the statues are grandiose and at the end of the day they are power mechanisms and control mechanisms over public space. I don't really want to preserve such Monuments in Barcelona, so that's a big question mark that we'll try to answer a little bit during the following three days. You will be discussing about public art in Barcelona which was a colonial metropolis for a long time. In the past, this was considered the strength of the city. Barcelona ranked amongst the important global metropolis, colonialist metropolis. Later on, this reality was hidden or somehow hidden, this colonial past was hidden under the carpet. I believe that today it's important to bring it on the table, bring the topic on the table, because only by understanding our task and who we've been will be able to have a 100% democratic city because public art per se belongs to all citizens. And this means that the fact that public art is somewhere doesn't mean that it has to stay there forever. It's also true that the session is not understood as a session to discuss about whether we want the Monument here or not. I believe that this workshop, I mean there is like a radical option to get rid of a Monument and then there's the possibility to redefine the meaning of certain Monuments, even if sometimes it's almost impossible or perhaps we can accompany Monuments with actions to give a background to get rid of the less democratic elements The public forum needs to be democratic and represent all citizens, all citizens need to feel comfortable in the public space, so in order to feel comfortable in a colonial, in a former colonialist city with public space with power of course a powerful city, because not all Barcelona's public art is related to colonialism nor imperialism, but there is an important amount of Monuments that do. So as Barcelona city council, we believe that we need to tackle this reality and we need to reflect we need to have a critical thinking and understand what's done in other cities around the world. And that's why I would like to thank all the different speakers that have agreed to be part of the session and also to all the participants from my side, that would be it. Thank you very much. I hope that the conference is going to be extremely fruitful. Thanks to the organizers. Thanks to born a central culture and Maria thanks to a room, and we believe that for sure this will not be the last conference on the topic because it's a broad topic. Public and colonialism are very broad and timely topic. Make the most of the conference I hope it's going to be very fruitful and interesting. And let's critical thinking inspire us when it comes to implementing sound public policies on the topic because of course a public debate. The theoretical debate is complex per se, but then grounding theories on public policy on the ground is not easy. And of course there's management and implementation of public policies can sometimes be uncomfortable and political parties don't make the job any easier. But of course the critical analysis has to be available to see how it can be grounded. Without further ado, I would like to hand it over back to Jordi Guichet and make the most of the session. Thank you. Thank you very much, Jordi. Without further ado, I would like to give the floor to Oriol Lopez. Hello, good afternoon to all of you. This session will be in English. So I would like to invite the assistants who want to hear about simultaneous translation, which is the icon below everything, which is an icon of the Costa Rican people who can activate the simultaneous translation in Spanish. Well, we'll give a start to this first panel discussion of this heritage and colonial memory in today's Barcelona conference. Thank you to the Barcelona City Council to make this conference possible. Thank you also to our colleagues from Elborn and your own Ferranda, Ricard and sell. Last but not least, thank you of course to the four speakers of this panel discussion. It is a real honor to have all of you with us and thank you for your time and to share with us all your knowledge. Well, as you probably know, the link between the city of Barcelona and the slave trade was largely unknown until recently. The truth is that in the 19th century, the city received a huge amount of incomes coming from those fortunes made by businessmen in the Spanish colonies in the Caribbean, basically. In that time in the 18th century, Spain held a large colonial empire. These properties were, let's say, exploded by enslaved people. So the money made in the colonies in the next century, in the 19th century, was invested mainly in the city of Barcelona within the Iberian Peninsula. And of course, brought consequences that still today are a clear evidence on the streets, where we can find monuments, street names, or even buildings linked to that uncomfortable past, if you want, or awkward past. Well, but this is the case of Barcelona but today in this first panel discussion as I was telling you. We're going to broaden the scope to broaden a bit the scope and to learn from those international perspective that our speakers can shed light on. So we will start with Anna Milosevic, hi Anna. Anna is a postdoctoral researcher at the University of Leuven in Belgium, and then a specialist in memorialization processes. And you will shed light again on on the on the experiences that you've been doing research. Please, Anna, the floor is yours. You have 15 minutes. Okay, thank you. I hope that the interpreters also can hear me well because I don't have my headphones. I'm so sorry about that because I'm currently in Italy and in Airbnb. I do not have access to headphones. First of all, I would like to say thank you for inviting me to speak about this very, very important topic that lies really within my heart and this is a topic that I have been also exploring my students in Leuven where I teach course of memory politics. As a first speaker. Well, my topic actually for today would be to explore some kind of corrective measures when it comes to memorialization and and the link with colonialism in urban space. This is quite the, you know, ungrateful task because first I have to start actually with providing some kind of answers to the issue that is at the hand. Before I do that, I would actually like to say a few words about the issue itself about memorialization of colonialism in urban space. I will like to explore also why this is an issue so why we are talking today about this and not maybe 20 or 30 or 40 years ago. And then I would like to maybe offer some kind of ideas on what are the possible corrective measures. What is the issue actually at the hand. The issue at the hand is actually that we have in the last 30 years discovered that there is this huge and massive under representation of minorities in public space in terms of monuments public commemoration in general. And this under representation of minorities is not only about ethnic minorities or racial minorities but also under representation of maybe sexual or religious minorities that live in a country. The issue at the hand is also that for many many years with the nation states in Europe, we have had this top down politics of memory that hasn't been actually challenged by no one. Whereby we had narratives that were imposed to the to the communities. And what we have seen in the last 20 years is this sort of democratization of memory. So what this democratization of memory actually entails, it entails among other things to add some kind of new layers of knowledge about the past experiences. About our histories about the way we have lived our past, but it also entails some kind of critical assessment of our histories or the ways in which we remember the events. And often these events were for many many years were remembered only from one certain point of view. So this democratization of memory, as I said would actually entail some kind of critical thinking and critical examination of the past, as the two first speakers actually explained. So why we have to critically examine the past I'm going step by step now. So why we should critically examine the past why we need is democratization of memory. Is it just a question of identitarian politics or there are maybe some other motives. So, first of all, by critically examining the past, we cannot only add these kind of new knowledge is new layers of knowledge to the history, but we can actually maybe try to provide some sort of acknowledgement justice for the victims for the communities. That were part of those histories but maybe are not included in an official memory politics. So what actually is happening with the process of democratization of memory is that we have this kind of a clash between what is the official politics of memory, and what are these new knowledges of the past that we actually haven't been aware of. So the problem the main issue I think lies in the ways in which the official politics of memory has been contested, and by whom is contested. Of course, if we talk about colonialism. We can see that in a number of cities in the number of countries in Europe or around the world. Many memory activists are actually trying to start a number of initiatives they're doing the number of activities that they're trying to raise awareness on these, these issues on past injustices, etc, etc. There have been a number of diaspora organizations such as for instance diaspora organizations in Belgium, which is a colonial power that have been quite active and quite imaginative in providing a number of activities with a name to raise awareness of the crimes that were committed in Congo and in Africa under the Belgium colonial power. Of course, what kind of contestation we have. What kind of contestation we have when we talk about monuments what kind of contestation we have when we talk about museums and renaming of the streets. Well there are a number of cases, all around the world that actually suggest that the contestation can be peaceful. But when maybe a non governmental organizational social, social actors promote these kind of activities with an aim to raise awareness, add new layers of knowledge to the actual politics of memory, we can talk about peaceful contestation, because the aim is not only to raise awareness but also to provide some sort of educational tool for the for the global public that maybe he's not aware of the issue at the hand. But we have seen also a number of cases that contestation can be also violent. For instance in South Africa, a number of monuments that are built to roads are violently contested by the broader public by the students by a number of organizations that deal with colonial history of South Africa. And in Cape Town, there is a huge mausoleum of roads that overlooks the entire Cape, and there is this huge huge huge value of roads that a number of protesters were trying to severe his head or they cut his nose. And some of them have defecated also at the place of the monument I have seen that with my eyes. So, there is a number of ways in which people actually contest this monuments, but also they can organize as groups or like minded individuals, not necessarily that come from the SBIR organizations or civil society, but as ordinary citizens, they can gather and they can reunite around some kind of idea or some kind of a project like renaming of the street, or the contextualizing a certain monument. So in this case, we have an organized and a kind of a lawful, in a certain sense, contestation, because the actors that are involved in the contestation process, they try to, to, to provide actually a solution on an idea and a concrete objective on how this monument can be renamed, reused, removed from, from the public space. So this brings me actually to the corrective measures that I can maybe classify, classify as examples of positive action and maybe examples of negative action. So I'll start me with the negative action. So I think that the most, most drastic way of dealing with contested monuments is actually to remove them from the public space. So I think this is a quite controversial idea. But I hope that you will also have questions about it. I think it's a quite controversial idea that, you know, like monuments that in some way offend people should be removed from the public space. I think they should not. I think that we should, there are ways that we can get creative and use those monuments actually to learn from the past and find ways to the contextualize actually what has been for many, many years, the official narrative of that place or monument or that person. So removal is an example of negative action for me, but also there are other examples of negative action, for instance, vandalizing the monument, destroying the monument, hitting the monument from the, from the public space. In terms of positive action, I think that in a number of cases in a number of countries that have dealt with authoritarian regimes or have dealt with totalitarian regimes, we can see people and institutions, but also the states themselves, inducing a number of actions that try to deal with the past and deal with what are the remnants of that old politics of memory. So if you think back maybe of countries in Central Eastern Europe, we have seen that many of them have renamed and constantly maybe renamed their streets, their squares. They have induced a number of laws as well to deal legally with the past and to legally deal with monuments. But maybe Ukraine, Ukraine has passed a law that actually removes Soviet era monuments. This is one of one of the examples, but countries that were once colonial power is like Belgium, for instance, they have only recently discovered ways or they're exploring let's say ways to deal with that past. So in terms of how Belgium maybe is dealing with the past, because this is the country where I come from, where I live actually in work. I think that the most intriguing examples were maybe the Statue of Leopold II, and the second example is of course the African Royal Museum in Brussels. So one of the museum, let's start with the museum for many, many years that museum was heavily criticized by researchers by people who visited the museum because the way that the permanent collection was presented without critically engaging with the questions of Belgium responsibility for the crimes committed in Congo. And secondly also a number of researchers have also raised questions about the prevenience of the artifacts that are in the museum. And these artifacts were mainly imported or brought directly from Congo by individuals that have lived there, but these artifacts raised really important question about ownership actually of the museum or these artifacts. So Belgium, a couple of years ago decided to close the museum and critically engage with its narrative, the narrative of the museum, because most importantly, a couple of years ago in the old let's say museum. You would go to the museum and the entrance of the museum. There was a huge statue of European explorer with a black child and with a huge writing Belgium brings civilization to Congo. So, as you can imagine, this was quite offensive for a number of people. So in a new renewed museum that actually claims to be decolonized. The statue has been moved from the entrance into a hole that actually into a let's say part of the building that tries to critically engage with these questions and they try to capitalize a bit the statue and explain the issues behind it, etc, etc. So, when I bring my students to the African Museum in Tervuren, we actually have a really nice talk about whether they think that this museum is actually decolonized anyway, what ways. Some of them, my students are many Belgian students, some of them actually use my course to visit the museum for the first time in their lives, although they live in Belgium, and they have no deep knowledge about the Belgian colonial history. So they are really active in engaging with these questions and exploring the exploring the topic, and I'm really happy to discuss this with them. So, at the end of the semester. Actually, we discuss whether this museum has left some kind of a new knowledge, has given them some kind of a new knowledge about their own national history. And the answer is quite positive, I might say. Although me as a researcher, I still think that the museum doesn't, in a clear manner, engage critically with Belgium colonial history, my students think that this is already a positive step and it provides them some kind of a new knowledge they never have thought about. The second example I mentioned in Belgium is the one of the Statue of Leopold II that is actively contested, and I would say every day in a number of ways. People throw paint on the statue, people write petitions, so in a legal, lawful way they are trying to contest the memorial, the monument, and actually they are asking the removal of the statue from the public space. This is most important statue of the Leopold II, but there are a number of other statues of people who are active in exploration of Congo and exploitation of Congo in Brussels or in Belgium in general. For instance, you know like the Belgian government just recently formed the commission to critically engage with the question of colonialism, especially in the public space, but it still surprises me a lot that the Ministry of Foreign Affairs of Belgium is actually in the street that bears the root of the colony, the street of colonies. So as you can imagine, this was quite a shock for me, but people actually do not critically engage with the past if they do not see that there is a public demand for critically engaging with the past and re-examining the past, at least in Belgium. What are the possible solutions, as I said, in terms of positive measures, yeah, I'm finishing, yes. In terms of positive measures, as I said, we can think about decontextualizing by adding this kind of new knowledge or new ideas or explanations to the monument or the museum itself. For instance, I gave a course to the mayors of Mid-Norway last year. They are dealing with an important issue because they discovered that the place of their most important and most sacred place in their national history, there is a monument made by the Nazis. So they were already preparing the commemoration for 1000 years since the event, and they were actually asking me for ideas how to deal with this Nazi monument that is really close by. So, of course, there are no global solutions. There are no copy-paste models as we can, we have seen in the United States that every monument deserves its own special attention, and every monument and every statue and every street name that causes concern that is a matter of contestation should be addressed in direct contact with the authorities and in direct contact with the local population, especially not only with civil society actors. So I think that one of the first ways, one of the most important ways actually to engage critically with the past is actually to engage in consultations with the people that are in direct contact with monuments, statues, and museums in their close neighborhoods. So I think I will stop there. Okay, Anna. Thank you. Thank you for sharing your knowledge and your experience as a researcher and also as a teacher or professor with us. So now we will pass to Miguel Cardina. Miguel is a researcher at the Center of Social Studies. He's the coordinator of a research project called Cross Memories, Politics of Silence, the Liberation Wars, the Liberation Colonial Wars in post-colonial times. And Miguel will address the case of the Portuguese colonialism memories. Miguel, the floor is yours. Thank you. Well, I do not have the video. Maybe the host can help you to put the video on. Fernanda, please. Sorry, I cannot help. Miguel, you have to find the microphone icon on your... Yes, yes, yes. ...and open it. And then on this side, the other side you have the video start video button. So you click here and we will be able to see. Yes, but it's not possible because... I cannot open it for you. I'm sorry. Okay, I will speak. Well, thank you very much for the invitation. I'm very happy to participate in this moment. I will speak about the Portuguese case, particularly the debate, the current debate about the colonial past in Portugal, hoping that it will contribute to a comparative dialogue with other contexts. In recent years, we are facing a reemergence of the debate about colonial representations in Europe. This is not unprecedented, but it has taken now a new relevance. The nostalgia that has prevailed in former European metropolis has now been simultaneously challenged and maintained in the current discussions on slavery, racism, and empire. In fact, some of its visible expressions are centered on formal apologies regarding the colonial violence, the debate about museums and restitution, the contestation of statues and monuments in the public space, and so on. At the same time, this critical wave has also made evident the material and symbolic prevalence of colonialism in post-colonial societies. I would like to start this presentation by evoking a particular monument in Portugal, in Santa Cobata. The monument, which you can see on the screen, is entitled Monument to the Heroes of the Overseas, Monumentos Héroes do Ultramar, and was inaugurated in 2010 in the town of Santa Combadão. It recalls directly those young local combatants who were killed in the colonial war. The conflict, as you may know, occurred between 1961 and 1974, and led close to 800,000 young Portuguese to fight in Angola, Mozambique, and Guinea. About 500,000 Africans were also integrated into the same Portuguese troops to fight the liberation movements. The war would end with the birth of five new nations in Africa, Angola, Mozambique, Guinea-Bissau, Saint-Toumet-Prince and Cabo Verde, a region changed in Portugal during and after the Carnation Revolution, and the return, mainly from Angola and Mozambique, of around 500,000 Portuguese citizens. As you can see, the monument is divided into seven vertices, each one corresponding to an old colonial territory. At the center, there is a verse of Luís Vaz de Camões from the epic poem de Luziadas, e aqueles que por obras valerosas se vão de lei da morte libertando, something like, and those who buy valorous deeds free themselves from the law of death. So, we have here, in that particular monument, the simultaneous presence of a celebratory and painful memory of the empire. It is part of the recent and very prolific process of monumentalization of the colonial war in the country. In fact, within Chrome Project, and that I'm now coordinating here at the Center for Social Studies at the University of Coimbra, there is a PhD thesis going on by André Caillado, and the provisional figures of this new wave of monumentalization are really, really impressive. Throughout the country, around 300 monuments were built in the last 10, 15 years. Returning to this particular monument, there is another interesting element worth to mention. Santa Combadão is the birthplace of Salazar, the dictator ruled Portugal for much of the 20th century, and the square where the monument to the heroes of the overseas is located previously at in the same exact spot, a statue of Salazar, which in 1975 would be damaged and later removed. So, Celeste, could you click please, because there is an image of the statue of Salazar, and that is the statue was damaged during the Carnation Revolution, and it was located in the same exact spot. The monuments are very different and made it in, in making distant historical contexts. But I think that putting both in parallel allows us to illustrate one of the dominant features of the memory of the 20th century in the democratic Portugal, briefly, if Portuguese democracy was distanced itself from the memory of the dictatorship and Salazarism, nothing similar occurred regarding the memory of the colonial past. In Portugal, as with other former European colonial powers, the memory and the oblivion of colonialism came in multiple and multiple and not always evident ways. In the country, the pervasive presence of the so-called Lusotropicalism still exists today. The notion of Lusotropicalism was created by the Brazilian intellectual Gilberto Freire, which was appropriated and politically explored by the Statenove in a particular historical context, I can talk about that later, in the 50s, to portray Portuguese colonialism as more benign and less aggressive than other colonialism, Spanish colonialism, Dutch colonialism, British or French colonialism. The presence of a colonial imaginary influenced by this picture strongly defines the dominant national ontology. The evocation of the imperial history occurs mainly through the code word discoveries, descubertas, or descubrimientos. The term refers directly to maritime exploration in the 16th century, but its public uses transcend this historical circumscription. In Portugal, speaking of descubrimientos, descubertas, discoveries is often synonymous of a generic epic past of which the Portuguese should be proud. There are many examples of this that I could list here, for instance, the Expo 98 in Lisbon, thematic parks, Portugal dos Precanitos in Coimbra, or a new thematic park that was inaugurated in 2014 in Porto World of Discoveries, memorial complexes in the cities, such as Blaine Lisbon, and discursive mobilization of the imperial past in politics, in sports, in tourism, in advertising. If colonialism disappeared as a political reality, it still persists as an operative representation, weaving a bond between nation and empire that continually reproduces itself in the national memory scape. I would like to note that the term memory scape has been widely used in memory studies, mainly as a synonym for the mnemonic place that occupied by museums, squares, statues, and other material objects. Nevertheless, I think that in order to understand the memory scape processes of implementation, legitimization, and naturalization, we should have in mind a broader perspective, which does not merely focus on materializations of memory in concrete physical spaces, but also in an integrated analysis of the materiality, politics, and social imaginary involved in its composition, in the composition of the memory scapes. There are many reasons never existed in Portugal, a socially broad process of critical reflection on the colonial past, as for example, is occurring currently in many countries, as Anna Milosevic talked about the Belgian case right now. In the Portuguese case, this critical reflection is still ongoing. This aspect produces an apparent paradox. The stronger this imaginary is, the more it becomes invisible, precisely because it is so present that appears as naturalized. As Zanrini wrote once in a text about monuments, and I quote, is ironically the lack of unanimity that keeps some memory sites alive. The same could be generically said about the representations of the past. And that's why mnemonic disputes has a civic and democratic role. On this particular, I would like to mention some discussions arose in Portugal from from 2017 on, I will enumerate some without pretending to be exhaustive. In April 2017, the president of the Republic, Marcelo Reveld Souza, visited the island of Gore, in Senegal, a space once used for trafficking enslaved Africans across the Atlantic. There, he highlighted the supposedly pioneering rule that Portuguese authorities played in the abolition of slavery in 1761. In fact, the date does not signal the abolition of the trade of the slave trade throughout the empire, but the end of slave trade traffic to the metropolis, concentrating it instead in Brazil. The presidential statements triggered an open letter in which the signatories criticized, and I quote, the idealistic and exceptionalistic view of the colonial legacy of Portuguese history. In the same year, 2017, the placement in Lisbon of a statue of Padre Antonio Vieira, in which the Jesuit priest appears wielding a cross and with indigenous children at his feet, would fool various gestures of contestation. The most recent of which was in July, in June this year, in the context, in fact, on the context of big anti-racist demonstrations after the assassination of George Floyd, and also in Portugal, in Lisbon, there was a big anti-racist demonstration. And in that day, the statue of Padre Antonio Vieira was some anonymous ends wrote the world decolonize on the statue and drew small red hearts on the three children, motivating a lively debate. There's a photo on that in the screen. Similarly, back in 2017, one of the proposals submitted and selected for the participatory budget of Lisbon came from just an association of Afro descendants and advocated the creation of a memorial of homage to enslaved people. The winning project was presented by the Angolan artists, Killuan Jiquienda, and it is now in the implementation phase. However, the proposal to create a museum of the discovery in the city, the city of Lisbon, which appeared shortly afterwards, was the one that was more debated. The idea had been launched by the winning socialist candidacy for the local municipality within the framework of tourist growth in the country's capital. The designation of a museum of the discovery, Museu da Descoberta, and not discoveries, descobertas or descubrimentos, trying somehow obscure resignification, has been contested by some sectors of academia and civil society. As said in a collective open letter, did the African, Asian and American peoples with millenaries histories feel discovered by the Portuguese? And how will the populations from these territories feel today when visiting a museum space that deprives their ancestors of historical initiative, reducing their role to objects to be discovered, often violently, by the Portuguese? However, a considerable number of opinion articles on the topic in the press reaffirmed the place of overseas expansion in the national identity, censoring the existence of supposed penitential narratives in some engaged sectors of public opinion. From my point of view, this is explained by the persistence of what I defined in the text about nations representations in the Kavaku-Silver presidential speeches as an amnesic memory, I mean narratives, narrative forms of framing the past that actively produced selective images. In this specific case, these evocations are expressed through a double mechanism of revelation and concealment. On the one hand, the narratives associated with the singularity of the Portuguese expansion are valued. On the other hand, its discursive concretization operates semantic reconfigurations through which the violent dimension of colonialism and the traumatic way in which the imperial cycle ended with the defeated war was silenced. An expression of this in Kavaku-Silver presidential speeches is present in the words issues to say, for instance, Portuguese language, heritage, sea, cultural encounters, Europe, but also in those that issues to suppress. Terms like colonialism, colonization, racism, or slavery never appear in that speeches. To conclude, colonial heritage exists beyond the statues and the museum walls. Colonial implications are still alive in celebrations, in political discourse, in public representations of the nation, and in the effective hierarchies of citizenship. As a matter of fact, decolonization is not exclusively a transfer of power from Europeans to former colonized territories. It is coming to terms with the disappearance of the colonial order that favored European countries, confronting imperial legacies and reflecting upon contemporary citizenship as inhabited by what Michael Rothberg in a recent book called Implicated Subjects, who have contributed to or benefit from regimes of domination. Today's Portugal is not the imperial power that went through much of this 20th century as a colonizing, though semi-peripherical, metropolis. However, still exists a sort of what I call imperial philia that induces a significant number of representations about its identity and its history. The incessant reproduction of the same narrative has been challenged in the recent years as I illustrated, although it is difficult to anticipate how this process will unfold in the future. We only know that it will have an effective role in the mnemonic epistemological and political debates that are yet to come. Thank you very much. Thank you, Miguel, for this very interesting presentation. I really didn't know many of the examples that you'll share with us. And we will continue now with the last presentation, and then we'll have some, sorry, I put the video on now, yes. I was saying that we will continue with the last presentation and then at the end we'll have some time for Q&A. The last presentation will be shared by Alexandra Hill and Celia Thayas, both of them consultants and researchers at the organization called Culture Solutions. Culture Solutions aims to provide an analysis of the current state of the EU external action in terms of culture and specifically Alexandra and Celia are working within this organization to find the key concepts and measures that should be present for decolonizing EU policy, exterior policy in the field of culture. So, Celia, Alexandra, we are very keen to hear your presentation. The floor is yours. Thank you, Oriol. Can you hear me well? Yes. Thank you. Okay, I'm unable to open my video either. Let me try then. Well, I'll try to fix it later. So thank you all for your presentation and thank you to the European Observatory on Memories for the invitation. As Oriol just said, my name is Alexandra and together with Celia, we will be delivering this brief presentation on behalf of Culture Solutions that is an independent non-for-profit social innovation group contributing to the excellence of EU international cultural relations. What we will discuss here is the result of research and internal discussions by a group and does not necessarily reflect the official view of the organization. So today we will be speaking about EU external cultural action and colonization. We start from the assumption that as Roberto Rocuces colonization is not only a common shared past, but it is also at the heart of the European Union integration itself. It is central to the past and to the current place of the European Union in the world and the relationship between the EU and colonialism entangles for us to different viewpoints of analysis. One would be its past, how the EU deals, how the EU narrates colonial memories, and the second one would be its present, or if the EU really takes advantage of unical power relations to build dependency relations with other countries. That is neocolonial or post-colonial relations. My characteristic is that this is not done by coercive measures, but by indirect means as it could be official development aid, trade agreements, security cooperation, cultural relations. So as per the relationship with colonial memories, the European Union has not released official political statements to apologize for its bloody past. And even if the institution as such did not exist when its member states colonization experience years later. The European Parliament has included the topic in a number of resolutions that deal particularly with the commemoration of human rights violations that took place within the territory of the European Union. And in this sense, a number of scholars criticize the fact that EU efforts for historical remembrance have focused almost exclusively, and I read, on the Holocaust and National Socialism as well as Stalinism, which could be somehow interpreted as a sort of gesture towards Eastern European countries, especially since the enlargement of 2004, some of which like Poland have actually made memorial policies a strong component of their cultural diplomacy. But, and I read again, it remains curiously quiet about the memories of imperialism and colonialism. An interesting example illustrating this statement is the recent analysis about the narratives used at the House of European History, that is a museum opened in May 2017 under the initiative of the European Parliament that we can discuss in the debate afterwards if you have any kind of interest, but before moving on, we'd like to highlight very briefly one of the most recent European Parliament resolutions that brought the issue of colonialism to the table on ending racist discrimination against African European people in the EU. In this resolution, members of the European Parliament suggested that the European Union and its members that should tackle the structural racism people in Africa of African descent facing Europe. But it also suggests to carry out reparations such as apologizing publicly, returning Stalin artifacts to their countries of origin, or amongst others, presenting a comprehensive perspective on colonialism and slavery in the educational curricula. So before I give the floor to Celia, culture is an area in which both perspectives collide, since it is through culture that we portray the past and build a common identity. And here it is worth mentioning the great deal of value given by the European Union to the protection of cultural heritage. But also it is frequently framed and particularly in the case of cultural relations in terms of soft power as a mean to persuade and construct a gemini without coercion. EU cultural relations, if considered as a means for post-colonial relations, are however intrinsically different from other international policies in their own nature. While in development, trade, security or energy, the ownership of the object or the value is frequently unidirectional, which determines straight away the leverage of the partners. Culture is not exclusive from the European Union. It exists everywhere and it can even be considered as a common good for all parties. Indeed, cultural goods and services are a worldwide phenomenon. Thus, cultural relations as a means for domination would be the result of the fictional attribution of a higher value to some cultures amongst others. And this is gone through the creation and modification of symbols to which the discourse is central. But which elements can characterize a discourse or a policy as neo-colonial or post-colonial? There is no clear answer for this question, but we ought to look to the who and the what. Who takes part in the decision-making process, like so the agency, and how is the other represented? So the messaging. And now continue. Thank you, Alexandra. I don't know if you can hear me well. Yes. Yes. So the new messaging finds its more obvious point on the policy documents and we will dig a little deeper into the most relevant ones, but just a quick remark. The UX and Action works through a network of few delegations, and in the case of the cultural action, also through unique clusters. The unique is the network of European international cities for culture, and they have increasing the spread all over the world. So you delegations combine international cultural relations priorities and approach with countries specific thematic priorities. Are they expected to tailor the priorities of the policy document to the reality of the local cultural context? So the new delegations on this matter, as well as the unique model, are actually analyzing in the research report of two solutions, composing trust. Our starting point for continuing the policy, the cultural policies is a European agenda for culture in a globalizing world of 2007. We have the line that the role of culture is a tool for soft power, and that the EU is a mass part to become even more. But today, the EU external cultural action is guided by a joint communication of 2016. And before it's approval, the Commission commanded a pool of experts to prepare a preparatory action in order to advance knowledge and reflection on the role of culture in external cultural relations, as well as to make for a strategy in the field. The preparatory action is called engaging the world towards global cultural citizenship. And this initiative is interesting because it acknowledges colonialism as the origin of long standing and strong cultural ties between European countries and third countries. Although it also recognized that the nature of these relations may be different, and for instance the relations of Argentine citizens may have with France may be different from the ones that they have with the rest of the EU population. Although it also recognized that because of the colonial past, the EU is frequently perceived as a new colonial partner and this hinders trust in the EU who is perceived to be pursuing its own agenda and this instrumentalizing culture. This image, while combined with our recognized dependence on funding from EU donors to carry out international cuts to a relationship they make that neighborhood countries and certain partnerships countries, they, and I quote, they feel uneasy with the dependency implied in the existing donor-recipient relationship. And it calls for a spirit of partnership that is filled with mutual learning and exchange and equality of position. And then the participatory action actually, it assume a quite a strong decolonial approach, therein to talk about the elephant of the room. And this participative process was the basis with the joint communication of 2016 towards a new strategy for international cultural relations was built. This is very important because it says strategy and culture for the entire EU's international action. But the question there is, if it's built on the decolonial perspective that is brought by the participatory action, and in short, our analysis show that this is framed from a good intention, but it could actually be improved. And although a different research could and shall be done, there are some remarks that can be highlighted in this sense. The first is that cultural diversity is present since the very first sentence of decision communication, as we see here in the quote. It actually makes a significant effort in promoting the cultural dialogue, and it explicitly supports the need for a sufficient dialogue with local stakeholders. However, the joint communications does not make any reference to the weight of the history in the relationship with the partner countries. And also, it frames cultural relations as a tool for promoting a global order at the European side. Therefore, in terms of soft power, which leaves the room open for instrumentalizing culture. And actually, these quotations that were in reference to soft power are part of the introduction of the document and not only of the party dedicated to cultural diplomacy. It's problematic because it risks that this approach is mainstream to the entire scope of your cultural relations that is including cultural development, inter-cultural dialogue for peace, and international cooperation on cultural heritage. And in this regard, the joint communication that we consider that it did not do a substantial follow up on the decolonial approach of the preparatory action, in order to delete the latest European culture, the new European agenda of 2018, which in the part dedicated to external cultural relations, it briefly reveals the joint communication of 2016 and similar terms. The third point then is how to implement, like how is the implementation of these arguments. The final, the central question then is if the EU develops its external cultural action decolonially. But what does it mean? There is no real, no, there is no guide for this, but the post-colonial theorists actively call for two elements. First, to recognize one's privilege, and second, to listen. And when conceptualizing, designing, and asking, the EU needs to recognize that it is not and it cannot be a neutral actor, but it is part of our relationships. Also, it needs to avoid the colonialism move, as Tandonohan created the terms in 1984. That is, it needs to avoid to develop a narrative of the other that puts the EU in a position in which it is legitimated to decide what is best for the other. And instead, it should just listen and give agency and involvement in the decision-making process. Another conceptual and practical resource for decolonized approaches is inter-cultural communication and inter-cultural approaches to international cooperation. And in a more practical way, it would mean to involve local actors in all stages of cultural relations to put resources at the service of their identified needs, and to engage in a true equal-to-equal dialogue in which cultural goods and services are equally valid from both sides. In this regard, the role of due delegations as outlined in the Culture Solutions Report is absolutely essential, because by engaging with local stakeholders and adapting the general policy framework to their context, they are the front runners in decolonizing the practice from the institutional culture through healthy consultations, with decent priorities, and allocating economic resources to the needs identified by the local actors. And those are some of the key issues that can be done. So to conclude, despite attempts to decolonize European external cultural policy frameworks, we believe more advocacy desk and fieldwork remains to be done. In short, words are there, but deeds are still missing. There is room for an ambitious agenda that should mix historical, sociological, cultural, and political approaches to address, discuss, and manage European colonial memories. In our opinion, post-colonial relations lack a solid cultural dimension, and we firmly believe more cultural action would help improve those. EU international cultural relations could be a front runner for a renewed approach to foreign policy that avoids neocolonial behaviors. From a macro perspective on strategy design and policy narratives, a deeper and coordinated connection between internal and external EU policies could help addressing key issues such as migration, the role of diasporas, or post-colonialism. European citizens themselves have painful memories of intra-European conquests and invasions that left deep scars and still affect contemporary relations. And these memories are intertwined with intercontinental colonial memories as much as intra-African and intra-American memories of domination and internal colonization. It is also interesting to think that an integral approach to decolonization could even work as a new push to the European identity narrative and to a more inclusive EU project truly united in diversity. In third countries, such an approach would have to be embedded in countries specific EU cultural strategies combining European Union and member states' cultural priorities. From a more mutual perspective, we've seen that the EU political change of paradigm has established principles such as mutual dialogue, people-to-be-approach, or bottom-up initiatives and cooperation that are paving the way towards a more horizontal relations with partners. The more recent global backlash of multilateralism and the sort of return to realist politics, however, has switched the discourse again towards terms such as the language of power or geopolitical commission. And this is an approach that risks superimposing geopolitical interests onto building a fair and respectful relation. So we will see in the future if the two kinds of messages that we hear in the slide are compatible or not. And actually decolonizing the practice of EU-Sanal cultural action goes through reassessing the long-term scientific nature of interculturality and its potential for peaceful coexistence and mutual respect, but how to do this in practice? Well, recommendations in the field of EU cultural cooperation cover an array of actions that would solve misinterpretations at the implementation phase, some of them being common to the cooperation for development in general, such as the use of non-European languages, or puritancy and local expertise among European expertise. And in this regard, EU delegations have a really key role in the short term to decolonize their institutional culture and functioning as the key actors in building partnerships of mutual dialogue and engaging in people-to-people relations, or acting as speakers of bottom-up initiatives. Even for them, this situation can be advantageous because since by not being perceived as imposed, they can benefit from a better climate of understanding that can easily span to other areas in which your delegations are working. This theory is pretty clear. It's said that the EU is not an interlacture and listen and give voice to the less powerful. The practice needs at the first stage to decolonize their mind, as Fanon would say, and this is much more difficult. But this is where arts, as a tool for challenging representations and meanings, is extremely powerful because if arts brought the colonial gaze to the European collective imagination, and it depended on your vital and just burner, or depends on Agostino Grunias here in this slide, they have also been the forefront of the big colonial gaze, and fields, books, performance or visual arts, such as the painting of Patecin Dele here in this slide. They have been the space for the decolonial discussion. They have been essential for rewriting the symbols and meanings, and in this sense, artistic creations give voice. And the first step for decolonizing is to start listening. So culture is a tool for social innovation and for social change at the end of the day. If the EU is willing to engage in decolonizing its practices, culture can be the perfect scenario for mutual learning, collaboration, and co-creation. Well, thank you very much, and we're open to any further questions. Thank you very much, Alexandra and Celia. And thank you to all four speakers that started the first panel discussion today. Well, now we'll open the floor to all the attendees, and we can receive questions and comments through the chat. While we are receiving these questions, I can start asking to each of the speakers some ideas that came to my mind while you were speaking. Anna, for instance, Anna Milosevic, you were talking about underrepresented minorities and democratization of memory. And it came to my mind that recently, quite recently in New York City, a new monument to suffragists women, including black women, was opened in Central Park. And the question should be something like, apart from contestation to those offensive monuments, do you think that the building of new monuments like this one that I mentioned can contribute to heal the past human rights disasters, let's say, micro? So you're asking a quite complicated question with a very interesting example, I would say. I'm not very convinced that the current use of monuments and memorialization in general is actually contributing to healing the wounds from the past. So when I say this, I mean that, you know, in many, many cases, we have seen new monuments arising because of this perceived, let's say, public need for a new monument for, you know, adding this kind of new layers of knowledge, etc, etc. But the further we go, you know, like from the event or from the person that actually, from event that actually happened to a present. We are actually building monuments that correspond to the present needs of societies of political groups of individuals, etc, etc. Of course, this is not always the case. I'm not saying that this is the general rule. In some instances, you know, you have victims families. You have descendants of certain groups that find quite important to actually have a monument and this is some some sort of restorative justice for these population. And it's quite beneficial beneficial for them. But in terms of healing the wounds of the past, I'm not quite convinced that it actually heals the wounds, but it certainly contributes to the recognition acknowledgement of the past suffering. And this is, I think, quite important. And is there any example in Belgium, which is your main focus of the research of a new monument in this regard? Of a new monument that seeks to address past injustices. Well, on transnational level. This is quite important and Alexandra and Sylvia also talked about the house European history. This is a quite evident example of a monument that seeks to provide this kind of critical assessment of the past and this kind of new European approach that seeks to pacify the tensions that actually come come from the past. So this museum was actually one of the instruments that the European institutions, the EU, have used to induce some sort of reconciliation among European people. Some sort of, you know, to, to create some kind of a like a shared narrative a common thread among different kind of histories of different kind of experiences. This is one example. But another example that also deals with transnational memory politics is the one of a monument that is well announced and, you know, kind of built in a in a close future on the monument actually seeks to commemorate all the victims of the totalitarian regime. So this monument is supposed to be placed in a small square in front of the European Parliament. And, you know, this is this has been a quite controversial project and quite controversial monument that actually gives this kind of a huge responsibility, you know, to a monument to a statue and a construct in urban space that, you know, this monument is supposed to kind of pacify the tensions and kind of put on the same level all the victims of all totalitarian authoritarian regimes in Europe and elsewhere. So this is maybe one of one of the recent examples of the monuments in Brussels but you know like Brussels is not only a house for the European institutions but also it's a capital of Belgium so we have a different kind of national and transnational monuments and monuments, the different kind of diasporic groups also construct. And of course if we speak about recent monuments in Belgium or elsewhere, I should also mention, you know, the efforts of the civil society and the citizens themselves are making in constructing and building these kind of spontaneous memorials. Not only maybe, you know, for the terrorist attacks, not only in the remembers of the people who are killed or people who have died recently, but also, you know, as a sort of homage to the people who actually do not have a monument. And this is maybe an answer to your question, because a number of manifestations around Brussels actually adhere to this kind of spontaneous democratic expression of memory as a sort of tool to demand an official monument in a public space and I think this is also quite interesting in modern times. Okay, thank you Anna. We'll wait for your questions on the chat. Now I turn to Miguel. I had a question for you Miguel but now I'm reading a question that came from the chat, which is very short and very specific so maybe you can answer it quickly. Where is the head of Salazar Monument? Do you know it? I think no one knows. Well, the image that I show you is from 1975, someone cut Salazar's head, but then in 78 someone put a bomb in that monument, so it was totally destroyed the monument. And the community made a fundraising to build another state dedicated to Salazar and this was an issue for some years and in fact that monument that I show you on the monument to the heroes of the overseas was also a way to stop that discussion that in fact was stopped in the early 80s. But it was also a way to put a step in that issue and the question of the memorialization of Salazar in fact in fact returned this year, this year in the last year and during the last months in fact. Because the municipality of Santacombadão is organizing a space in the old school where Salazar studied in the village of Vimeiro near Santacombadão to well to memorialize the figure of Salazar. And there was a huge contestation on that. In fact, some historians were involved in that proposal and another historians like myself criticized that proposal because there was a discussion on whether this space will be a celebration of Salazar or not, despite all the discourse of the municipality that space will be a space to remember the past, but there is all this discussion about I mean the question is, it is possible to remember a figure like Salazar in that particular memorial landscape. Is house is vineyards is cool. So how the space interfere in the way that a particular figure is remembered socially remembered. So, the question of the end of Salazar in fact is a huge question because it came from 75 until today. Thank you, Miguel. I have another more question for you. I'm translating from Spanish. So the question says, do you know that we can talk about the Iberian model of memory of colonial memories from the lack of of communication of addressing that public space and celebrating the, for instance, the day of the of the Spaniard. I don't know. Yeah, it's a huge question. Also, I don't know quite well how the Spanish cases engage with their own colonial past. So I need, well, we need to compare it in the more detailed manner, but in the Portuguese case, it is clearly a question of billy's definition of banal nationalism. So it is clear something that is really embedded in the national identity. Also because of Portugal, Portugal had a really long history of colonialism, and and we had the revolution and this is interesting to compare with with the Spanish case because we had the river, our democracy came from a revolutionary rupture differently from the Spanish case, but we had no no critical reflection on that on our colonial past, despite the rupture with the dictatorship was really tied with the colonial question because the captains that made the coup were the captains that were defeated in the war. So this is a very interesting situation to see how some elements were of the past are are really important in the way that a country like Portugal friends it's it's narrative about about the democracy, but others are really invisible and the colonial past in the in the in Portuguese case it's it's clearly it's clearly that despite and I think my my presentation, I think it's was fucking on that despite from 2017 on, there is a movement of did not realize that that mnemonic framework. Okay, thank you very much. And now two questions for Alexandra and Celia. Maybe one of you can answer one and the other one can answer the second one. I don't know. The first one says the decolonization of your cultural policies seems more a question of actual implementation than theory, compared to other major international actors like USA, China, Turkey. Is that right? Yeah, actually, in our presentation, we went through the policy documents related to you know, and we see the theory kind of how it has the principle, like the principle of people to approach mutual dialogue, mutual respect. Then the question is how it is implemented and if these principles are translated into mainstream in a decolonized approach in, in every single action that the US and the US in external cultural action, right. So I would say that definitely like it is, it's mostly a matter of, of inflammation rather than of the theory. And the second question maybe for you Alexandra is local cultural and creative industries from third countries, sometimes need a look for help and support from the EU in a, in a neocolonial way. Maybe yes, because they might benefit from some of the findings that they receive. I say, I would say that this is actually the role of the EU delegations to decolonize that way actually and to really hear what the local people needs, what the local people really wants to, to move further on in terms of cultural cooperation. I think there are good examples of this in terms of like big projects that are South South cooperation projects such as pre-cultura that promotes a South South changes between Brazil and other Lucifer countries, or triangular projects together with UNESCO, such as trans-cultura based in Cuba and in Jamaica, for instance, that deals with Caribbean cultural heritage from a more regional perspective. So I think that that is actually the role of the EU delegations and the other partners to decolonize and to kind of prevent our cultural cooperation projects from having this neocolonial approach. Thank you. We have another question for you, but it's very long. It's more a comment than a question. So you can read it on the chat because I'm not able to summarize it all. And the final question says something like, in this term, don't we risk to use intercultural policies as a, as a too naive tool to make keep silencing voices while making think policymakers that something is improving while it's not? Yeah, I actually kind of read that question. I think that actually the basis of intercultural policies are those principles that Celia just mentioned about spirit of reciprocity, going from messaging to listening, co-creating together with everyone for, from a bottom-up approach. So I would say that intercultural relations should never miss hearing these minorities or this, I think the question referred to migrants that this person referred to. So we shouldn't miss those. Thank you. And from your presentation, I was thinking, so you mentioned several times the EU delegations in the third countries and I know that they have means to promote projects between the member states, the EU member states and those countries where the delegations are based. I've also read that both of you have been living in Cuba, in the island of Cuba. So maybe you know and can share with us any specific or successful, hopefully project promoting this mutual learning that you were mentioning from a decolonial perspective? Yeah, well, I think it is key to understand that we are moving from perspective of like showcasing our culture to a perspective of real exchange. So actually, maybe Celia, you want to mention the example of the film festival, for instance, and I could mention a nice example from Senegal. Yes, I can tell me about the European Film Festival because this is an initiative that the EU has kind of mainstream among all the EU delegations, so like it's kind of a central activity of every EU delegation in the world. And it's true that this European Film Festival was more portrayed as a showcase of European cinema outside of Europe. And it's interesting how, at the same time that we have this kind of project, we also have other projects such as transcultura that Alexander was mentioning, which are more looking for this cultural dialogue among parties and more equal to equal dialogue, which is something also very interesting that shows how maybe the paradigm is a little bit changing, which is good. Yeah, the example I know from Senegal was in the Biennial of Contemporary Arts. I think that was 2016. The European Union wanted to give funding to that Biennial, and it was actually framed that funding through the UNIC, that they are the European Union, the National Institutions of Culture that were based in Senegal. So actually, I think we did a really nice work at that time I was working there because we met with curators, with artists from Senegal, and we kind of requested or asked what exactly, what were the needs or what would they want to see at the Biennial. And we actually came up with the design of a very interesting project on video mapping. So it was about developing capacities. We brought three experts on video mapping from Germany, Spain, and France. And they all made capacity building trainings in which they developed capacities on specific video mapping techniques to five Senegalese artists each. They would be showcasing the result of their work in three magnificent different facades from the city. And then actually the project also managed to bring technical big equipments that actually came from Europe, I think, and were then left in Dakar. So when these three European artists left, capacity building was reached, these artists knew about video mapping, and it was the very first time such a big video mapping project was shown in Dakar, in Senegal, in West Africa. Well, thank you again to the four speakers. It has been really, really enlightening, all your presentations. And I hope that you contributed a bit to clarify this broad panorama that we are addressing since a couple of decades, I think, not only in Europe, but in other parts of the world. Well, now I think I'm not missing any other questions that came from the chat. So thank you. And now we have 15 minutes break. And we invite you to attend the second panel discussion. Thank you very much. Thank you all. Thank you very much. Bye. Hello, just a reminder, you can leave the room, but it would be better if you could stay here with us with your cameras and micros in off. Okay. Thank you very much.