 Great, let's go ahead and get started. So welcome to the next Network Service Mesh meeting. So as a reminder, please add yourself to the attendees list if you have not done so already. And let's get started with some agenda bashing. Is there anything that anyone would like to talk about that it's not on the agenda list? The meeting notes have been posted on to the on to the chatroom. So you can review the agenda there as well. Shall we go ahead and get going? Ooh, I was talking and yeah, that's how I do the events. Cool, okay, let me get started again. So first make sure you add yourself to the agenda. Make sure that you, are there any topics anyone wants to talk about before we before we kick off? Okay, I assume they have to be NSM related? They don't free to propose. We have not had a non NSM related problem yet. So we have so we have three recurring Network Service Mesh talks that we have this one at 8 a.m the NSM document call at 8 a.m Wednesday. We have used face talks which are on Mondays at 8 a.m and on Tuesday on the second fourth and fifth Mondays. And we also participate in the CNCF telecom user group numbers of the feather which occurs every first and third Monday at 8 a.m. On Thursday, May 23rd we will be giving a intro deep dive at the telecom user group and found native network functions testbed as well. We have KubeCon coming up in May 21st through 23rd and this will be held at Barcelona. Please book your hotels if you haven't done so already. We have an intro and a deep dive maintainer track that you can attend and we should be offering a demo at the Elephant booth. I believe in conjunction with the ODL stuff. We have two co-located events at KubeCon EU. We have the Fido mini summit which occurs every which is going to occur on Monday, May 20th in Barcelona and the cloud native network service state. We have talks in both. If you have any booth talks or demos or anything like that just to add at KubeCon please speak up and or push a PR to the site Yes. We also have KubeCon China coming up of where we Nikolai and I have a talk scheduled for doing an introduction talk. This talk is particularly interesting because it will be it will also be translated live into Chinese. So bring all of your native Chinese friends who are in China. And also I believe this will be the very first talk about NSM to be held live in Asia. Yes. That is true. Very exciting. We have ONS or that is on June 25th through 26th. We have ONS Europe coming up. The call for paper is currently open and closes on June 16th. The middle of next month that occurs in Antwerp. So if you're interested in talking feel free to submit a paper there. In November we have two events the MEF 2019 and KubeCon. The call for paper for KubeCon is now open as of yesterday. So it is open till July 12th. So we have some we have some more writing to do. And any events that you have with an NSM presence please open a pull request to our site and we will add you on to it. And do we have Lucina here to talk about the social media community? Good morning. Yes. Yeah, you have four. Thank you. Since last Tuesday we have gained 15 more followers. We have followed 182 more accounts and I and we posted six original tweets and retweeted a few. Number unknown. Thank you. Thank you so much Lucina. This is going so well under your care. Much appreciated. Thank you and you're welcome. Yes and the the site also reminds me that we have to start adding the frequently asked questions to the site. So I will make sure to get started on that. Actually Prem is going to start a Google doc draft but I haven't seen one passed around unless I missed it. So I'll I'll open one up and email it to the group. We so we also have now a a set of release notes. These are not the finalized versions. So if you open up the release notes document you'll see this is the initial proposed version of what I'm thinking of having this release. So it mimics the Kubernetes release notes which I think are very well done. The main departure is that in the what's new because this is the very first release I thought well I'll post all the pull all the pull requests line by line and I realized there's 800 of them and so as much as I would love to to do that I decided to write a higher level overview as to what we what we've built. There may be things missing in this so if you feel there is a major component that is missing in the reference architecture or or otherwise please please comment on it. Please please suggest it. So a couple things that we need to work out as well is for downloads. I've added a couple things that we could talk about for the downloads. So Helm Docker images linked to the source code preferably signed. So are there any recommendations or anything like that that people would like to see that I missed? One thing I think we probably need to think about and we may not have to dive in deeply here is we're dumping a bunch of CI images including various latest things into the member service mesh Docker repo. We may want to separate a CI repo from the release repo. For some reason I thought we had already done that but no I agree with you. Keep it clean. I may be misinformed as to the current state of the system but because that way you know we we we don't have people mistakenly grabbing latest and getting whatever it is that we have on master just now. Now I definitely agree. My one preference on that is that we we actually make three accounts and the reason for that is one of them is our standard test. One of them is our one of them is our fully released version. The third one is so that we can we can test a test a release. That way we're not publishing directly to the to the main repo. Put up a staging repo. Exactly or or the other alternative but basically I want the CI to to publish to to some staging repo anywhere and it could either be the repo with the same name in a different in a different location so we're not publishing to Docker Hub or it's on Docker Hub and it's and it's under a different namespace. So what are the other but I think that's a fantastic idea. Cool got it. Yeah and that's part of part as part of automating everything. We want to make sure these things are like even our release processes tested as much as we can. Yep. Right and some of the definitions that I took on here I I stole from Jeffrey in the in the boxery so you should recognize some of the some of the literature there. Um we it may make sense to rewrite it a little bit to make it a little bit more simple like on the service registry registry like people will not know what it them is. Or we make or we use as opportunity to introduce them to the glossary. You have to have let a thoroughly blessed life to not know what it is. We can always throw it like the e.g. you know open stack VMware type things in there to just give like examples it's like Kleenex right like it's actually tissue paper but everybody just knows the brand Kleenex and the two are synonymous or like a skill saw actually being a circular saw. Yeah no I mean that's part of what my joke about them was is that generally speaking that the actual use are so like Kleenex that they don't call them dims we only call them dims if you're in some weird space where you're trying to make any of them work in the same way. Right but I mean to Frederick's point like I think a lot of us assume that people know what it them is but if you're just a peer developer who's coming from like the public cloud space you're probably like what is this acronym and why is it here. And you might be offended if you are an emax person so. So and one last thing about it as well as I'm also sticking even though it's not part of the main release itself I'm also putting the fact that it's even see if membership and then the new logo is being added in here as well so once that logo comes up we're going to we're going to inject it in and we get to go. One thing I'm going to need help with is under the known issues if there are any major bugs that we have not resolved that we want to call out we have to make sure that we populate those with not just a list but the actual issues that that track those those problems. And then moving forward we'll call out like Kubernetes will actually call out major major pull requests and inspects that that have changed network service mesh interestingly moving forward. And I'll also need some help with correlating getting started as to what do we want to show off and making sure that that's all tested for the for the main release itself. So basically we go to the documents make sure that everything that everything that we want to showcase in the documents works as intended in Lincoln. And so that's pretty much it. Let me know if you have any suggestions on if there's anything that I should add that's missing or anything that you find it would be useful. Well I think this is good the known issues is going to be fun because I know we're currently rapidly pulling bugs out of the system and squashing them so so far we're doing a really good job of making sure that the known issues are fixed. Yeah and I and I put in very clearly this is an alpha release and so that should be code for use this in production I mean don't use this in production depending on your your level of risk. Cool so back to the main agenda so I saw Alex is on the Alex is on the agenda so or she's in the room so you have four. Hi yes so I think most of you saw the newest logos that I posted yesterday. I'm I got some feedback already so it seems like there's one you want to share Alex sorry you want to share oh yes okay definitely I'll share my screen right now let me know if you can see looks great okay um so yeah so this is the newest board um it seemed that most of the feedback I've gotten so far is for this one right here on the right three down on the right the orange and yellow one yep um yeah so yeah I mean do we we're we're coming up to the point where I think we need to probably make a decision um so that we could potentially get stickers and things printed um how do folks feel about possibly taking a decision today I'm okay we have 25 people on the call it seems like a quorum to me yeah yeah all right so let's offer a little bit of space for folks to express their opinions here I know we've had some people express opinions on the thread um and I know like from those opinions as Alex pointed out there's a lot of support for r3c2 which is the orange and yellow one here um do folks have other opinions please feel free to speak up if you do we would not have gotten anywhere nearly as good if we had actually not had diverging opinions speak up Jeffrey use your words okay hey I'm super glad that we moved away from the goofy looking spider and the web nonsense and went with the matrix um I actually sort of like the um the third one down a little bit better or um even the orange and red that's um below that one I kind of prefer the transition a little bit more as opposed to the darker outer matrix with the um lighter inner matrix but that's just me I I can handle the one that's just off the screen now on the right hand side but um I prefer the um light to dark transition personally um and I definitely like the reoriented um hepticon that is now got the flat side down um it's not too too overly kubernetes but it still kind of gives a nod to the cncf that adopted us so that's my thoughts cool yeah I think one of the other things I noted that I noted that made me super happy is I I'm very sensitive to color palettes because I make as you know a couple of slides here and there um and so you want a good color palette to work with and I was super happy that um r3c2 the orange yellow one um that if you invert the colors on that just mechanically invert them you get something that is a really lovely blue on black um that also works and I dropped that out to the thread as well yeah as long as I can peel the spider off my laptop I'm happy I mean she's a good spider she's just not a logo she looks very much like an ant with two extra legs happy ant um so do we want to go ahead and go with um r3c2 and my my guess is Alex you probably know you know since you're pretty sort of in mass you may want to go and clean a few things up and feel free to do that um and did we have any strong opinions about fonts what is r3c2 is this the it's the origin right there okay yeah the cleaner the font the better just because people are going to shrink and expand and you know blow these up without changing pixel ratios and stuff so like the one that comes with the one that you're leading towards ed um the solid color with no transition and just very nice block lettering I think is a plus because regardless of how you manipulated it's probably still going to be readable okay um what is so what is that font by the way Alex I didn't I listed I'm gonna find font one because I didn't know yes that one is Lato LATO um okay google not heovetka for sure I was I was hoping we'd pick comic songs but yeah that that that that can always be a fun font to work with so I think most of the two fonts you have here are the the Lato which is the one with that's there on the r3c2 the orange and yellow logo with the hexagon and then I think the other one in the logo just above is the josephine sands which is a little yeah blockish um do folks have any strong feelings between those two I think we've had some strong feelings for Lato but I don't know if they were just because it's a cool font or in comparison the one that's on the purple brown and green one on the left hand side too that's also very clean but like if you go immediately to its right like with the slightly canted ease and stuff like that I just know because I'm not artistic and I've tried to church things up too much in the past that when you start expanding and shrinking things they start to look super funky so um the thin letters in that you know purple green brown one or the ones the Lato um it's just very crisp and clean it doesn't have a lot of pixelation at the edges of the curved letters I think that'll hold up well sounds good awesome okay so yeah I tend to agree so what is that font on the purple and brown one that that was commented as being so clean that one's um new new neto it's called n un ito um so yeah there's only three fonts I included that one and then Lato and then the um josephine sands because those are the ones that were called out I guess in the feedback I think yep no that that's a good choice do folks how many I think to my eye the josephine sands you're probably right jeffrey um so between the slightly heavier Lato and the slightly lighter um what was it again new neto yeah feelings between those two yeah the good news is we have a side-by-side there with the orange yellow and the don't really find any big difference but probably there is maybe the s slightly different I kind of like the lighter new neto personally same it's just it's not as bold there's more separation between the lines so like I said when you start to shrink it down really small you'll probably still be able to read it the pixels won't bleed into each other is bad yeah okay cool so I think we've got we we've got a font selection we have a color and form selection and then Alex I I leap into your able hands to you know do the various and sundry professional machinations that you don't understand but but we will notice the difference in terms of it's sort of like um I want to say someone explained to me that a really good suit unless you're a professional of the art you will know that it's a really good suit but you won't be able to explain why someone who's completely artistically challenged I appreciate everything you've done for us oh no it's been great thanks for you guys have been great with all the feedback and it's been very good um I will uh so now I guess for stickers you're is there any specific file types you need obviously svg and ai probably but otherwise that's probably all right svg and ai would be great okay we can always dump svg to other formats um I we can then see what it takes to find out about getting stickers I will go and poke the service desk about that and see what that process looks like sounds great so um we're going with the orange one um with that different font than the other font and then um okay yeah so great so I'll just revise that and then create the right files and send that to you ad by the end of today or tomorrow morning does that work that works perfectly I mean we actually already have a place that we've been dumping these logo files up and drive I'll drop them there for all to see and I know that cncf also has a standard place for logos um which is unbelievably helpful um and we can get it up there as well sounds perfect okay thank you thank you guys so much much appreciated bye cool and now back to the release right so I think uh Nikolai was next based upon my my remembrance of the meeting notes yep let me see if I find my safari can I share I I'm seeing a share do we want you to share yeah awesome and so I was browsing here so um the story is like that so first of all we are a lot behind our schedule and the release uh there has been some talk uh in the slack channel about how we want to approach this and uh fret your effort to start putting this together is is very helpful so thanks thanks for that uh fortunately with our vacations that were in the last 10 days we're not really getting where we want it to be uh so this is the board we still have a lot of things on on it so I guess that probably the question that we should answer today is do we still want to try keep keep our plans for having a release at kubecon or we should just postpone and try to figure out a proper way to do the release even calling it off but still having something that that we feel like we want to show to the public yeah I mean I I would particularly like to hear from all the various folks in the community who are in the trenches finding and fixing all these bugs I think there may be more stuff in the backlog we may need to arrange to go groom this board somewhat because I think there may be some things in the backlog that are in progress are done because I don't think we're necessarily grooming the board but we've been doing a super good job of of shaking bugs out of the system and fixing them love to hear from some of the guys who are in the trenches I know you are but for some of the other folks and see what they think is uh possible okay let me try uh I think uh to resolve possible all issues we have we at least need one more week so probably we could create a release branch somewhere in the middle of the next week so at least we will be sure all demos is working with a release branch and potentially we will cherry pick any changes required so it will be safer to do with master for any changes and with a release branch or alpha release branch will be used for demos or and for kubicon okay I like that so so essentially we we changed the plan to having a release branch for kubicon but the purpose of this branch is to to have stable demos but not necessarily having all the cis and all the release notes and everything in the world that we would like to see I think its purpose is very much like what we normally do for throttle which is you have some it's something that's stable and you you you may be still be adding tests to it you may be still finding bugs and you may still be fixing bugs but the point is it's a place where you're only finding you're increasing text testing finding and fixing bugs so that we have stable demos and we're moving towards a release but yeah I think you know that that seems more realistic to me than trying to show something prematurely out the door yeah I definitely agree with that and my I would I I think as as much as it would be nice to be able to get the first one out at kubicon uh it's more important to that that initial release even though we have the word alpha stuck on it and andromeda is the first release I think it is very important that we that we hit the quality bar high enough that when we get people who because we are going to be looking at this very critically and they're going to want to see is does this work or not and they're going to get their first impression based upon that that cuts that branch and so I would rather I would rather delay it and to be clear this this isn't an implication on on anyone on the team or anything like that as well I mean you all have worked amazingly hard and so you know kudos to to you all you know and this is this is purely about you know what is what is the what is the right thing to do for for the project for for uh in order to ensure that that first releases uh is going to win us people will not and not create uh not create skepticism in the community so for example our latest uh yeah we had against something so yeah good um okay so uh from the things that I'm involved to uh involved in I can say that um because of somehow failing CEIs for various reasons I mean uh so we are pushing forward the IPv6 verification we have found some um some problems around it which uh which are I believe are began out now I mean which are not really inside the inside NSM um and we also are having this thing with the helm charts that I saw your PR I will have to check actually how these things blend together but I guess that they will um and um yeah I have some some take that here to what um I know that we have some troubles why NSMCI and AWS is here in this state should it be yeah the moment we have some issues yeah yeah I remember yeah yeah we sent that the last time sorry where was this okay um so yeah for Azure we know something's going on here automated collection of IPv6 system data for crush is wow but that's already done a long ago should be yeah that's like okay uh good and here in order to do well unfortunately still a long list I don't know if there's something that we were mentioning but we can yeah I I agree with you even before you say we need to go here and maybe they label some some things here so the question becomes I mean we've got about 20 minutes left in this meeting do we want to do some bug grooming here or do we want to do a sort of a bug grooming meeting leading up to the release where we can get folks together and say look um and or one thing we could do is sort of pre-groom um you know Andre and Nikolai and you know Frederick and myself could go through and take the ones that we know are in progress are done and try and shut them around to the right place um does that does that also make sense for folks we could maybe just try pre-grooming because as much fun as you guys are uh meetings are hard particularly given our global stretch stretch yeah yeah yeah sounds good yeah maybe maybe we can we can just I mean go through the issues and everyone can put notes what they think that that that needs to be done for that for that particular issue if you have some some kind of opinion and that's could help like a distributed asynchronous meeting yeah I mean let's let's start with the first passage just trying to get the um to try and sort of sort things into the right categories I've been going through and trying to sweep things onto the board by going through the issues as they come up and marking them with labels and adding them to the project but I you know I've not yet actually gone through and tried to sweep them to the right category so I suspect that the backlog is probably much smaller than it seems to be because I suspect a great many things have actually been done or are in progress um and we just need to actually get them swept to the right place and possibly closed other things isn't that one already I think that that that this one is in progress right okay yeah okay I agree let's do some pre-grooming not yeah not not schedule a meeting and if we need to do a meeting we can do it in Barcelona because we'll be more or less in the same time zone similar closer time zones so okay so let's let's go ahead and let's try and go through let the lean room before uh next week's meeting and we'll see if that works um and and we'll sort of put the incentive in there that you know if grooming if grooming asynchronously works then we don't have to find a time a time for another meeting yeah uh okay with that I think that we're more or less done with this any any other other thoughts here any comments suggestions complaints um when do we want to when do we want to cut a release like do we want to when we want that when we want to cut a release zero one branch um is that going to we said next week yeah I think we're I think we're trying to target next week we can certainly assess that in this meeting and make the call um you know make the call to cut it if we see we are what we expect to be next week does that sound about right to folks yeah and and this question is is independent from the actual release itself so I want to make that back there so it's just a matter of like is are we cutting a branch specifically for for kubecon or are we cutting a branch that is going to turn into into the release and so I want to give differentiation on that in my mind it's the the letter like we're going to cut the release branch but we're not going to tag the release for kubecon specifically we're going to focus on stabilizing the demos that they are reproducible and doing whatever we expect them to do for kubecon okay so in okay and that's an area okay that makes sense is there anything else anyone wants to talk about on this specific uh topic okay um prem your name is still on for uh for a meetup yeah do you want to talk about it or do you want to yeah okay cool so I have some good news so in principle I got approval for the meetup so Lumina has agreed to probably take out of the space as well as a bit of sponsorship for the pizzas and drinks so I'm still working on the budget so one other thing is the plan is probably we can also expand it to wherever Lumina offices are which is essentially in India as well as in Australia um so that's one other update um do we have a link to the meetup plan so I'm still working on that I probably should publish it either today or tomorrow once we have that's okay I just sounded like you you were ready and so you do take your time but we'd love to see what it is sure yep definitely um so that's the update with respect to the meetup so the only thing is uh what we would need to do is we need to probably I mean once I have the plan I'll probably also see if you can create the meetup group in meetup.org and add you add a bunch of us as the local organizers and after that what you would need to do is we need to probably have to agree on the frequency as well as the uh list of speakers we need to probably I mean this is very common we need to keep the pipeline so that people know what are the talks and they would probably plan accordingly here yeah and something we should also think about is do we want to make it specifically NSM or do we want to make it a little bit more generic and say maybe cloud native networking or or something similar to that you know what I had the same question so it's good that you brought up Frederic we can probably talk about it you can probably hear from the community as well. The only thing is uh what when we call it as cloud native networking there are a lot of other meetups that are around it. I would be a little bit reluctant to call it the cloud native networking meetup at this stage just because there are other things out there in the space right and I don't want to come across this sort of land grabby so that that would be kind of my sense I mean we do what a minor piece in queue. Yeah I think so. I'd actually also Prim sorry go ahead. Yeah you first. Well I'm gonna say I would definitely am obviously the Bay area is a hot spot for these kind of things so when you guys kind of navigate through some of those things I'd like the lessons learned because it'd be nice to maybe get something like that started up here in Denver as well. I'd kind of like to wait though and see kind of what works for you guys in the Bay area and then try to replicate it here. Sure definitely. I could also definitely do something like that here in Austin but but I think it also is useful in some sense the Bay area is sort of like the easiest target ever for meetups and once you guys get the bugs out there we can we can try and slightly more difficult I guess. Yeah that doesn't mean the work is any less hard but it's it but it certainly is a launching pad. In fact I was one of the main organizers behind the largest the world's largest Scala meetup backed like in 2011-2012 and it was a tremendous amount of work putting into it because we would have people come in and say oh yeah we can we can hold 150 people you walk into their office and it's a it's a closet maybe hold 25 or 30 and so in terms of like there's definitely a huge amount of work that's involved with that but I think the the important the most important thing that we do is we try to keep the quality of the speakers high and we maintain a very common cadence like we say every second Tuesday of the of the month at 6pm on the dot no exceptions there's a there's a meetup and we just drill it into people and so people start to who really care about it start to associate that as their NSM date tonight or whatever you want to set it up and so they end up marking those their calendars off in their mind don't accidentally skid on top of it and so so I but I think had I tried to do to do this in even places like like Denver or Houston or so on I would not have had the same response so I've been looking into this for a while and Denver actually has a pretty thriving meetup space but I'm kind of in this weird spot of do I take NSM to an existing meetup or you know I think the comments about like trying to say cloud native networking will maybe be seen as trying to compete with other groups here in Denver so my other alternative is to wait until you know maybe January of next year kind of see how you guys fare after NSM is you know had another round through C and CF Barcelona and C and CF you know here in the North Americas again in San Diego and hopefully we have more exposure there because the other thing I don't want to do is you know set up a meetup that only two people come to yeah that is very important I agree yeah sure I'm trying to navigate that and and just so you know the first Docker meetup had around eight I think around eight people show up eight to ten people so don't feel don't feel bad if it's if it starts up small I mean but I think you are correct it's also good to start sort of circulating with other relevant meetups in the in the broader in the geography because I know we we've got like a fairly large Kubernetes meetup here in Austin and maybe I could try and get on that schedule as well yeah sounds good so I'll probably create a document around it and we can probably add our thoughts I also have a marketing person have them is Stephanie she is helping out on this I can invite to one of the calls and then probably ask her to give the update she's quite connected she's to work for telecom counsel and she's well known in this marketing fraternity we can leverage some of her experience and then get it done yep cool yeah I think that's awesome just a thought occurred on the so basically the team of the meetup maybe I know cloud native is highly contested but perhaps you could consider edge networking at least I haven't seen a lot of meetups around edge especially edge networking something to think about I think that that's an entirely can of worms that will open up a Pandora's box that you don't want to deal with for something as focused as an SM I would say that edge is probably more contested than cloud native at least in the telco space for sure not to mention the metaphorical explosion we just experienced if it's not if it's not cloud native networking I'd rather fall back to to being very strict on network service mesh I personally would not feel very comfortable with with pigeonholing us into into any other bucket at this point I think maybe like just narrowing it down from cloud native networking to like maybe just like cnf's or something with nsm just talking about service meshes and the um the networking appliances that you would want to potentially plumb or something like that I don't know yeah which is network service mesh exactly right obviously I'm biased and I'm trying to be sneaky about this but um but you know like I think cnf's is something that's focused enough but has a lot of people's imaginations captured and then having that partnered with something like an SM to say like no this could actually be a reality and here's a way to do it um maybe be a way to get enough people interested but also have it focused enough to um not just have something that's you know a bunch of random people showing up and arguing what the edge looks like yeah that makes sense yeah and one other thing is also uh uh what I foresee is nsm is going to be the pivotal point and then I see a lot of things around it right from the relevance perspective even though we started as network service mesh probably you can bring in ny more from the relevance of networking all other similar modules so that we create or grow the ecosystem based on nsm yeah and the way that you do that is you you have instead of having guest speakers you have guest topics so things that have relevance to the space even though they're not exactly that that thing yeah and uh I like guest topics yeah and one other thing is uh I used to do a lot of unconferencing around uh uh cloud we used to have what you call as a cloud camp uh so even unconferencing helps you to bring up or make audience more engaged yeah there are a couple of things we can engage the audience and gain interest i also think partnering when you talk about guest topics with like the envoy community the istio community the linkardy community to a show them that we're not trying to like you know put our hands in their kool aid and also how things can be potentially complimentary um would be beneficial too because I still always get the um well why are you working on this jeff why don't you just use istio like common at least once a week no no I get that too and and I usually find the easiest thing to do is to ask them exactly how how they expect putting ethernet frames and htp headers to go for them sure but I yes and I have similar conversations um but like I said if we show how like things are complimentary and just once again now that we're in the cncf like becoming as um you know collaborative as possible will only help us yeah um a second thing we can do as well is at least here in the bay area some of the meetups are amenable to partnering with other groups so there may be a cloud native computing group out there that may want to on occasions co-host something um and we can do like a joint uh a joint thing so and that'll that'll help pick up our visibility in those communities as well yep so the way to work out which ones those are is to look at which ones have done that in the past with other groups and there's a few of them out there and uh basically we want we have to find one that's large enough that uh that they don't feel threatened with uh with a group who in and and basically say are are we building our competition and I think we're we're segmented enough that we shouldn't run into that problem too much but it's still maybe an issue with a couple groups so we do need to be sensitive I'll probably create the mind map and then we can probably add what is the how does the ecosystem look like we have five more minutes and I think likewise so added an item to the agenda yeah it's just I mean we don't have the time to go into the details here but I think that we can at least open as someone mentioned a couple of minutes before the can of worms here but um um what I see is that we have this nice use cases call where a lot of things are discussed uh and then we have the cnf test bet which we haven't even touched from what I know from nsm point of view and then we have our demos and our ci and I kind of see all these things going okay not going but kind of approaching um different problems which require attention I mean um you mean we spend a lot of time talking about these things planning but then we somehow fail to to to put the the attention into I don't know implementing at least some of the ideas or at least start implementing or having some some basic I don't know code going in that direction I mean understand I mean this is the state of the project I'm not saying that we should change something tomorrow or whatever but maybe at some point we'll have to figure out how we want to approach all these because they're essentially different directions so the demos that we have today are very basic they're demonstrating essentially the SARA type of use cases our ci goes into a lot of other details it also has the same yeah so I mean what one of the things we may want to do is everything comes down to sort of accessibility of doing the work I think we have a strong approach on doing things and so you know effectively you know if we have people who are interested in say doing a use case or putting together a new demo or for example to see enough test bed stuff if some of us would be willing to stand up and sort of mentor them through the process I think that that would probably make it much less daunting if people wanted to pick up doing some of those things yeah yeah that's yeah I mean what you're saying is that we should focus at some point put some efforts into enabling other people joining in in these directions is that what you're saying yeah no exactly because we're we're running into a problem where we got all kinds of good stuff going on and the community is growing and there are all these other interesting things but everyone is currently busy working on some other interesting thing my experience with mentoring people is that it's incredibly low cost because what is it usually happening is someone will go and grab a problem and they need a little guidance on how to get started so you come a few bars and they go off and they do the thing and then they get stuck someplace since they come back and they say hey I'm stuck here and usually the place they're stuck is really easy for you to get them unstuck and so you save them a week of bumping around in the dark by sort of saying oh oh go try that and they you know you do a couple rounds of that and in half a day they're moving forward again and so that ends up being sort of a really good way to help people get moving okay I think that this kind of partially answers the issue that I I'm trying to bring up that other part of the issue is that we are focusing on okay it's not really an issue it's just I guess that's something that that we are going to face at some point more or less I mean NSM is quite basic as a technology I mean in terms of founding like it's it should be part of the foundation of the cloud of the next generation cloud if you want to call it like this but then you can build a lot of things on top of that right and what we are building today is very very very simple and basic which is okay right I mean that's that's what we do now the thing is how we want to move further I mean do you do do we want to start putting some effort into the you know whatever is discussed in the use cases like you know delco type of things how we want to tackle the problems if you want with the with the public clouds right I mean because today we are growing as an overlay how we are going to to integrate okay so for the CNF test bet I guess that we have good enough connections in there and so it's more or less understood what we what we need to do and what we want to do there my impression is that the Taylor and the rest of from the CNF team have just been sort of saying they're very politely saying okay whatever you're ready yeah characterization guys so there's a comment in chat that says yeah yeah but okay I guess that that mean we are kind of on top of the hour so maybe maybe we should just I don't know continue this discussion if we find that this is useful next time but I think that there are some things that we can try to figure out along those lines or maybe not um so just a closing parting thought I think Nikolai brings up a good point we perhaps need to sort of bring this into consideration and putting together a roadmap right so this roadmap and priorities in the community perspective so these are all activities how do we manage it at least some thought cross structured thought process around it that can be super helpful and it's it's one of these things where people will sometimes talk about there being no product management involved in open source and that's not strictly true it just looks way different than that it looks in the commercial product right because of the commercial product you know basically you say okay well we have these five things that we care about and if we cut these two we can pour resources into those three open sources all like that right um it's sort of a broader inclusive thing but at the same time if you can sort of say okay here's the bogey list of things that people feel are important um and so then it gives us a sort of a thing that people can turn to for stuff they could work on if it interest is them interest them um and and that can be very productive no exactly so maybe perhaps we could sort of maybe kick this off at the use case call like basically start putting together I mean even the last use case cause we're trying to get into the details on specifics and breaking down further right the use cases and then of course everything is interesting but from execution standpoint where is the most community interest likewise we could pack the reason and then sort of you know put some thoughts around it together right if you're figuring out what if any gaps are there like I know for example I'm sorry Daniel I got three on the bus the Daniel basically wants us to have SRV six support yesterday for many of his use cases um and so that would currently be a gap now it's a gap in plans for the market so if somebody picks up trouble to go do the SRV six support it should be fairly easy um but I suspect that for many of the cases there'll be sort of a set of oh we're going to meet this and then we have it on our roadmap but maybe we want to accelerate it okay let's continue this next time I think that it needs a little bit more okay okay so I'll go and close that then so thank you everyone for attending this week's network service much meeting we will have our next week again at this really great day take care thank you guys bye thank you