 President Buhari writes Senates for approval of $800 million loan request few weeks to the end of his tenure and the Center for Accountability calls for immediate stoppage and re-initiating of the recruitment process of the office for the Auditor General of the Federation. This is PlusPolitik and I am Mary Anacolm. President Buhari wrote on Wednesday to the Senate asking the Honourable House to approve a new loan request of $800 million. In a letter read by the President of the Senate, Senator Ahmed Lawan, President Buhari who noted the loan would be utilised to scale up the National Social Safety Net Programme, while he said that the loan would be sourced from the wall back. Joining us to discuss this is Richard Inoyu, he is a Principal Consultant, Project Development and Management of the Africa Industrialisation Group Incorporated. And also joining us is Jide Awobiide. He is a Liga Practitioner. Thank you so much gentlemen for joining us and good evening. I think you have muted Jide. Can you hear me? Yes I can hear you. Richard thank you also for joining us. Can you hear me? Perfect. I'm going to start with you Richard, because this is your 40. One of the most intriguing things is that as we speak, Nigeria has exceeded its borrowing limits this year. Apparently before we even got into this year we had already sought for about 11 trillion Naira loans, adding to what Mr. President is asking for now. I'd like to read something. The Minister of Finance and National Planning Zainab Ahmed had said that the federal government will borrow over 11 trillion Naira and they will be selling national assets to finance the budget deficit for the year 2023. That means that we're losing as we're borrowing not just losing in terms of the fact that we're not able to just service those loans, we're selling off our assets in order to be able to service these loans. How deep seated is this problem that we have on our hands? Well first let me start by saying I'm not really surprised at the attempts by the federal government to borrow and I'm not also surprised at the attempts of the federal government to practically sell national assets. Let's not forget that last year the finance minister, Mada Zainab came out and then she made it correct that we have over 11 trillion deficit to finance our budget and when she made that statement she also told the Nigerians that for also finance deficit we have to rely on borrowing and then also selling national assets. That was part of that was passed by the Senate. So what's the same today is the implementation of what has been passed into law. So relatively the fact that Nigerians are surprised now I find that very strange but that also shows that we have very serious problems in our hands. The fact that over the last six years and when we use the word limit in respect to rigidity the fact is that the Senate based on requests from the president can basically alter the act. So the fiscal responsibility act has been altered over the last three years. After 2021 the limit for borrowing was around 5%. Today what you're trying to do is to shift it to 40%. So it's not about what the act says, it's about what the president and national assembly are willing to do by altering the act so as to ensure that it can increase borrowing which is dangerous when it comes to not only our credibility to repay but also it also shows hotlines in how we approach the issue of financing government expenses. Still talking about how deep-seated this problem is because you talked about how dangerous it is. Why are these requests constantly being granted? We've seen the presidency come with different subheadings to request for these monies and we've also seen the IMF and the World Bank on the one hand raising an alarm as to the incessant loan request. But the bigger question is why are they still giving us monies if they have fears that we may in the long run be unable to pay these monies? I think I didn't get the question. I'll ask it again. So my last question is we're seeing the IMF and the World Bank raising an alarm about these loans that we're unable to service and how we're continuing to borrow ourselves into so much debt and I'm asking why are they still giving us these monies if they're so concerned about our inability to pay back? The fact that the World Bank and international government they are just showing that I'm not a fan of because the truth is that they have been part and parcel of the problem we're facing because what we're trying to do is to ensure that first they make available I interest, outside the fact that I interest loan they also create a conditionality for the repayment of those loans. Other those conditionalities remain to increase tax. So increased tax is increased tax corporate tax for instance that means we'll be paying one of the IS in the world. I call it increased tax. They also ask increased tax. They also ask indirectly to increase the price of point in the name of trying to remove point subsidy. So IMF and World Bank these are changes to show that if you really want the way, the way about in your business they really don't care about insurance to this day even though it's the way they try to pretend they are concerned about our writing debt as in portfolio but at the same time they're always willing to give this country top this debt that they know clearly that leaders of this country will not have the best intention to use those debts to address our financial public and that's some of us who believe that we don't need these debts because we have several ways to finance our budget like equity financing and extracurricular financial budget I remember from that class every time after two years ago we wrote to the president and we told the president that Nigeria has over 97 trillion mayor being head down by international oil operation as well as MDAs in this country money they refuse to remit to the traditional account 97 trillion mayor is enough to power budget at least in the next two, three years so we have enough money to do this but unfortunately we have a government that seems to have strange what I call romance and they are willing to borrow so we are not able just of the fact that not part of the budget we pay but the condition of the state Richard just hold on I think we're having a little connection issue with you we're unable to hear you but let me come to Deji Deji just part of the question that I asked him the national assembly, yes a lot of people would say that the national assembly is a rubber-stablished slater hence it's being in cahoots allegedly with the presidency and allowing all of these you know requests to be granted but the biggest question on every Nigerian's mind today is why is Mr. President taking out such a huge loan weeks before his tenure ends and what does this mean for the person who is taking over being that this government has borrowed and over borrowed leaving Nigerians and generations to come indebted thank you for the question Meryan it's very obvious I mean it doesn't need a suit to tell you that this is a government that is financially reckless and it's a government that wants to continue to put the Nigerian people in abject poverty even though what the President said in his letter is that the loan is for the purposes of lifting four Nigerians out of poverty by ensuring that the money is paid to them if you look through the context of the letter you'll find that it's an old load of org wash because you will see that the Nigerians that they want to credit their account details are unknown, we don't know who these people are what is the data that's available to them to enable them to identify who these Nigerians are and you had 80 years to do this why are you doing this two weeks to very three weeks to the end of your tenure of course so it's all ricks of corruption I mean that's what it looks like to me and I believe that eventually if we look through the books we will find that it is a grand scheme to continue to deplete our collective resources because it absolutely has no economic sense there's basically no reason economically particularly given the fact that at December of last year our debt profile was 46.25 trillion our debt profile was at last year December 46.25 trillion and you're still going ahead to borrow this money reached the end of your tenure now if I may ask when this loan is approved who is going to process this is it the incoming president that will now process this loan or also approach the loan eventually so in the grand scheme of things we also need to point fingers at the membership of the further and negative council yes it is comprised of his appointees ministers, the vice president the secretary to the government of the federation the minister of state but they are filled collectively to tell the president some own truths because if at that level you are unable to talk to the president to let the president realize that this particular action will not go down as we are leading then it does smell of hypocrisy as a minister you should be able to disagree in other countries of the world where ministers do not agree with the policy decisions of the government they resign, they let the public know why they disagree with the president or the prime minister and they give their reasons for resignation but in our case we have yes men people who are willing to just say yes or yes and they approve all kinds of things I mean in the past eight years you see all manner of things are approved if you compare this the past four, almost four years now of the national assembly led by Ahmed Lawan and the four years prior with Senator Bukalasaraki as the president you will see the very very contrasting positions you know you had the prior senate was able to engage with the presidency, disagree on issues approve the words of an Indian and disagree and refuse to approve the ones that would plunge Nigerians into poverty or you have seen the difference in those four years with this correct president that we have you have a senate that cannot question the president that cannot summon him to come and answer questions as to why he is backing on a debt accumulations free in perversion Nigerians both of all classes and you know it just tells you that these people or these people in government do not even understand that Nigerians are suffering do not even care about the suffering of the average man on the street you also just cut it to pile up the debt and eventually you would find that if this new government comes in they would find ways of ensuring that if the average Nigerian is the one who is still going to pay back this loans by some way or manner there are two taxes and an increased tariff you saw there two weeks ago there was a revised tariff scheme for alcohol and a few other things so you will find a way of pushing this burden back to Nigerians but again you have the general you have the government officers who should be accountable to the people who should ask questions nobody is asking any questions you just go ahead and robustamp all of these things and you may decide who should be asking the questions because you see we have members of the national assembly like you have rightly stated who are in cahoots with the presidency why are we not asking the questions then why are we the people those who have an idea of what is going on have we really been asking questions do we even care what is happening at the highest level of government or do we just hope that a miracle will happen because we talk about this in passing the people are not asking questions what are the people that should be asking the questions and are they asking the questions the people I referred to are not the avid Nigerians if you go to social media you will see a lot of Nigerians complain about this this loan request social media is awash with a lot of comments they put the anger as to this continued borrowing when I mean the people the people who have been elected to serve the house of assembly the people who are members the senators presented their districts who are not asking the questions that should be asked the ministers who are members of FEC because if you see the letter the president said oh FEC approved that they should proceed with this loan request that FEC consists of all the ministers and all the ministers of states as well as the vice president so all of these people put together the number of FECs these are appointees of Mr President what sort of questions are they going to be asking these are men and women they are appointed by the president what about the people that we voted into power and I'm talking about the members of the National Assembly and you talked about social media the cries and the hue ends on social media but what about asking for real accountability not just on social media but we need to activate the process of recalling some of these are members well for this one it's about nightfall now so they are living in about three weeks but for this incoming National Assembly we need to be more proactive we need to exercise the right of recall it's a constitutional provision that enables us to recall these members we should recall a lot of them and activate the process so that if you are there and you are not able to do what is right put the interest of the people first and foremost beyond your own interest then we should ask questions about recalling you and we should try to get more people engaged in that sort of recalling these members so you win elections fine we voted for you fine but we should go a step further to recall these members who are not pulling their wigs you can just go there and we civilize for four years and allowances and then come back after four years and you have big houses, you bought new cars in the US and in the UK we should stop that we should not become more focused so ensuring that we are able to recall some of these are members from the National Assembly all right let me come back to you Richard if you are still there let's talk about the cost of living crisis that we are facing in this country of course there are lots of countries that have been faced with inflation and they have come up with ideas and cushioning effects and how to deal with these issues every time we talk about borrowing the debts profile we hear stuff like oh even America is owing but in Nigeria's case what we borrow to fund is what's in question and again just as Deji said here if we're all having to deal with the cost of leaving the hiking prices of goods and services the lack of pay rise and people are unable to take their take on pay not being unable to take them home how do we try to stall these kinds of requests to make sure that it doesn't go through until we're given good reason and see where previous monies have been put to good use Richard can you hear me Richard are you there can you hear me oh I don't think that we have Richard let me come back to you Deji I think I want to pause that same question to you if you heard me how do we pause the process of being approved in the first instance so ideally in under normal circumstances under the provision of the constitution the question expects that the legislature would be a check on the executive so even if you have a reckless executive you should have a prudent legislature that should ask the questions so you want this money what do you need it for the ones you borrowed what have you done with it what are the projects that you wanted for how does this project impact the lives of Nigerians how does it help our economy grow how does it advance our political interests if you want to borrow from the IMF and from the World Bank and all of these agencies how do we how does it help us as a people now we have an unfortunate case whereby our legislature is really no next to nothing even if they do know something they are already in bed with the executive all they want is their allowance and all the benefits that come to them by reason of their office they do not understand the gravity of the position that they occupy that they can ask the questions the tough questions of the executive so when they realize that you are in bed with them all they will do is keep on bringing free voters requests and you keep granting them at the expense of the people so what I'm saying and it's very simple is how do we stop this the only way we can stop it is to have more citizen engagement exercising the process of recall if you start to recall people with the help of the judiciary that's the third harm we try to recall a lot of these guys back from the National Assembly they will sit up then they will know that the people are awake but if we don't recall them and we assume that well they are already there what do we do like you said and we protest and we go on Twitter Facebook and Instagram and we lament make videos and all of that even if we jack bar as they currently do now we are still faced with the problem even if we jack bar you can't leave your family behind you can't leave your family with you some will still be left in Nigeria to deal with this hardship so what we are saying is being able to get advocacy groups to be able to enlighten the people on the power of recall it's a provision in the constitution to be able to emphasize that saying that our people do not want to exercise their own powers of impeachment you can impeach a reckless executive you can impeach any executive government that is not doing what they should be doing if you are there for 4 years or 3 years you are not doing anything tangible the decision should be able to impeach that's enough ground to impeach but they don't impeach anymore or they have stopped impeaching or it is best known to them but what is important to us as a people in the constitution for the incoming government our agenda should be as those on the media as nigger partitioners as those in the civil society space enlighten the people to activate the process of recall recalling legislators who are doing next to nothing who are not advancing our interests who are not advancing our course and we want to continue to remain in bed with the executive to plunge us into what we think is the wish of all I think we have Richard back Richard can you hear me Richard can you hear me are you there hello Richard can you hear me I can hear you I can hear you okay great let's talk about the I mean I'm sure that every government has an economic plan an economic strategy and a team and half the time that team is chaired by the vice president of any administration whether it be the Buhari looking at the economic plan from 2015 up until now what's been achieved and also bang in mind all of these loans and the humongous budgets and the deficits that come with them how well can you rate the Buhari administration in terms of its actualization of an economic recovery plan if there had been any whatsoever and have they been able to do anything in that regard in accordance with you the Buhari government basically means to recover anything in that recovery it's only created new problems now let me give you a reference to the fact that as of 2014 we had a country where the economy was doing very well not only that we had the largest economy in Africa we had 26th in the world but then Nigeria was the property capital of the world what it is to be we have an economy that it's the best test in the world so we've dropped by five positions so countries that were doing better than before they are doing better than us now so when it comes to the policy of this government it's clearly around boring boring and acquiring public debt so there is no economic policy to drive the economy of this country to stop us we've been in deficit for close to six years now so two years that we don't know what this government is doing the only thing we know that this government is doing is in the area of the boring money and using the money wrongly to get a government telling you that how they intend to finance deficit is by boring national assets every intelligent and compassionate government is supposed to ask this question what if there is in place we can prove what if there are international assets to sell what are we supposed to do to finance our budget for us I believe that this government is spending so much money on things that are not necessary so far as the government is to cut down expenses especially what it has to do with stability there is one too the government must also recognize the fact that MBAs and international oil corporations are pulling us over 97 trillion that is sufficient for us to finance the next three budgets but because of the laziness of the government the government refused to grant it's MBAs and IOCs and the money is talking to you it's to residents in the accounts of the institutions so far as we are concerned this government not only that the government has shown what I call the sugar for some of the economic policies the government has called ahead to apply toxic structural economic policies that we know clearly will only justify forcing more Nigerians into poverty increasing the cost of energy disrupting our industrial targets and creating what we are supposed to solve in the next three days anyway it goes to look at it clearly it is expected where it has to do with it has to finance the economy or restructure the economy to perform better let's talk about quickly the recent cash situation with the CBN many would say that at some point the CBN governor somewhat took over the responsibilities of the finance minister the agricultural minister and there were so many things lines that were being crossed in his words save the economy yet you are telling me that it looks like this government did not necessarily have a sense of direction in terms of the an economic recovery plan what is the fate what is at stake for the next administration to be inherited other than the fact that we do have a huge debt profile what is in store for the government that is to come well the government that is coming is going to save very long time because first if you look at the credit creating organizations in the world they basically created an engineering credit for the next next 40 why it occurs because we are burning without basically the same value for what we are burning what I simply mean is that the next government coming may not be able to have access to cheap loan but it is a good thing because it allows the next government coming to think out the box engage its imagination and create value by using our natural endowment but on the overall what this government did over the last 10 years basically it is going to create conditions where my engineers will have to go through difficulties at the next one or two years to be able to get back on track and start investing in critical infrastructure like energy like construction like cultural and all of the factors we need to distribute stronger economic fundamentals that is a very gloomy gloomy note for a government to start on but that is our time gentlemen I want to say a thank you to reach out thank you so much gentlemen for being part of the conversation we are hoping and keeping our fingers crossed that something good comes out of all of this thanks for having me you can only hope for the best yes, well field to come calls have been made to stop the recruitment process and the office of the auditor general of the federation stay with us, we will be right back