 So, it is the last week of our emotional bid month. Very happy to be wrapping this topic and we have some questions we're going to be tackling a little bit later in the show from our audience around emotional bids and general topics as well. We're excited today to be sitting with Andrea Lee, an accomplished coach, mentor, author, and most recently a strong voice against domestic abuse. Having experienced abuse from both ends of the spectrum, both as a victim and the perpetrator. She has some unique insights to offer our audience, what it takes to stop abuse, redeem yourself, and rebuild those fractured relationships. We're going to be delving into that as well as how emotional bids come into play and drawing boundaries. Of course, it's a big topic we're going to delve into. So I'd love to hear first a little bit of the back story behind where we are today. So obviously having been abused and then turned into someone who was abusing someone else. How did you come to that realization that things were not working in your life in this area? You know, it's actually a really powerful moment. I'd love to share a little bit of detail on because here's the thing that I know about abuse. It's happening around us and we don't even really realize it. There can't be this many people who are experiencing tough conversations, toxic relationships without there being someone behaving badly in that, right? So it's actually an everyday thing and not something that most of us think about, which is part of the problem. So if I may, I'd love to tell you about a time when my younger brother, his name was Edward, who was actually legally blind, he was sitting on his bed at home, picture him with his glasses strapped to his face with the big thick strap, his fingerprints all over his lenses. You can picture him just sitting there on his bed. My dad was nearby and my dad is a workaholic. How many of us can relate to being really into our work, but also a very angry person. He was looking at my brother, Eddie, with this disbelief on his face. And when he said something, his voice was cold and hot at the same time. He went to hit him. And that was my defining moment in this cycle of bad behavior. I unfroze and instead of doing nothing, I hit my dad instead. I hit him instead. And the reason I share this is I think, and you guys tell me, I've been told it's a very relatable moment in defense of someone you care about, in defense of something or a situation that isn't optimal. It's like a person in a less powerful place. I became the aggressor. I got my first taste of power in the form of aggression. And that's really the doorway through which I stepped and started to become emotionally abusive in my relationships. And what's so fascinating, I feel like, with that story is we often don't realize how being abused can lead to us abusing later in life. And this gets imprinted on us in our youth. I grew up in an abusive home. Parents were separated. And I grew up and then I started abusing my loved ones. And that's the way that I felt I could interact. You're given the tools that you're given. And those tools may not always be the best tools as much as our parents and loved ones try to support us. And it's fascinating that you came to the realization of breaking the cycle and then speaking openly about it. I feel like a lot of us who've been the victim of abuse, one may not even know we are the victim because it may just be our definition of normal. And two, we may not realize that now we're perpetrating it on others. Right. And for those people who are sitting in that position who maybe are now having a realization that they are the victim and maybe they've been a perpetrator, what can you say to them to break the cycle of abuse? Well, first, just briefly, what is this thing we call abuse so that we have a little bit of a container for it? It's some emotional abuse in particular is any behavior that creates lasting harm, particularly on the well-being of the person. So the self-esteem, the sense of worth. That is the general broad category of abuse. Obviously, there's a huge spectrum of that. But lasting harm to the well-being of the individual is the definition I like to use. So how do you break the cycle? I mean, that's such a wonderful question. And actually, I think that you guys here at Art of Charm, everything you do here actually is an answer to that. So every single podcast episode, every single bootcamp, that the social interactions and all of that confidence building goes toward a more peaceful, abuse-free world. But if I were to give you one specific thing that is maybe actionable, it would be from a book called The Power of the Positive No. And it's by Dr. William Urie. And what he talks about is essentially the topic of boundaries. It's applicable in corporations. It's applicable in families. It's applicable in bands, rock bands are probably a really great place to learn how to say yeses and noes, looking at you, Johnny. So learning to say no so that your yes is real is the key skill set to help diffuse abusive or toxic behavior in relationship. I think one of the things you had mentioned earlier is a lot of us don't know when that's happening to us or perhaps our definition of it is different. So to get to the realization that I am somebody who is sustaining damage and I would also think that if your definition is vague, then and you don't stop it, that it's going to continue to haunt you through the rest of your life because you'll be those relationships will be the normal and you will seek those relationships out. So to get to a point where the tough decision and the hard honesty with yourself of, oh, wait, I'm in an abusive relationship, I seek these out, there is a pattern. That's such a good point. It's very true. I know for me, the way that I was raised started with physical abuse. My parents were separated. My mom was the physical abuser, but my dad through the physical abuse that my mom put him through, he became a verbal abuser. And a lot of times his anger overwhelmed both me and my sister. And then as I grew up, that was normal to me. I didn't even realize until the courts stepped in and basically said your mom is unfit to be your mother. So that was jarring to wake up. That's brutal to hear that. And then later in life, I found out after the fact, after a messy breakup, somehow the information got passed along to me. I think someone said, hey, is this blog article about you? And and I froze because my ex-girlfriend was writing about some verbal abuse from me that had scarred her. And I took it as playful sarcasm, not really meaningful, but it was something that she held on to. So that's why I love your definition of abuse, because a lot of us, when we think of abuse, we think of something far greater. We think of physical lasting scarring. We don't think of the emotional verbal abuse that falls into that category. And it really is lasting harm here. Years after the breakup, she was still talking about me because I had had that impact on her. And for me, it led to, in a large part, the self reflection that started the company and working on myself and self development, realizing that, OK, I am broken, but I'm fixable. So I don't have to keep the pattern going. I can stop it and break it. And I want to be a better person. I certainly don't want future girlfriends to be writing blog articles and writing things about me and having a negative impact on people. I want to have a positive impact on people. And that tough conversation for you of realizing that you were a perpetrator, what was the genesis around that? Well, I tell this story not very often. So this is probably the first place that it would tell this in this intimate setting. So, you know, the police came to the door of the apartment. My husband and I were living in at the time and someone, a neighbor in the apartment complex, had called the police because they thought I had been being beaten by my husband. And that couldn't be farther from the truth. My husband is like the most upright, loving mench of a man that there is. And it was me, in fact, slamming doors and having a big, rageful episode that had created the noise that sounded like I was being beaten. But I wasn't. And then the police, what was the last straw for me, honestly, maybe you guys can relate is that the police looked at my my husband as if he had been beating me. And it was those eyes of accusation that pierced through my consciousness. The unjustness of that accusation was what woke me up. It was that dark night of the soul, like, this ain't OK. I need to be responsible. I have to be the one to, you know, draw the line and change. Right. And I think for me, the realization through that blog article and then thinking and reflecting on past behaviors and seeing the pattern of my dad's anger, you know, started verbally at first. But then the reinforcement was the silent treatment after, right? So it would be an outburst of anger and then withdraw. And that became my way of dealing with my emotions. And it just became easier to withdraw. And and as I started to realize some of my past behaviors, I started to think about, wow, the pain that was being caused on both sides, right? So this cycle affects a lot more people than we're willing to admit. I think there's also a lot of confusion wrapped up in that abuse where it's through the right lens, it could almost be seen as the strong passion that this other person has for me, an example. I one of my earliest relationships was with a girl who had a bit of a temper. And my friends and I, we used to say that her favorite thing to do was to get drunk and break my stuff. And and of course, everyone else around me is like, she's crazy. What are you doing? And I'm like, I'm thinking we're in this very passionate relationship. This is this is madly in love with me. Madly in love. This is how much she loves me, right? Like and I don't know where that confusion was, maybe because of my because of the chemicals going on in me, of my interest in her. And it wasn't and I and I apologize. I couldn't help but smile when you mentioned that the cops came to the door because that's what prompted this story, which was I didn't realize that I was in this mess until the neighbor girls came over to the house and they and they're like, listen, you seem like a really nice boy, but you have to get away from this girl. We can't take it anymore because they were just hearing all the screaming and hollering and like, you know, she get drunk and get in her car and do donuts in the yard. And I'm like, she loves me. This is great. But and it's that, I guess, when you're young like that, it can easily get it can be confusion, confusing like that. And I also feel like it's it's always easier third party, right? It's easier for your friends and people around you to be like that. No bueno. But when you're in it, it feels real and it's triggering a lot of different emotions. And those strong emotions work both ways, right? Anger and love can feel the same in those moments like she's incredibly passionate for me. Well, which I didn't understand was how abusive the relationship that she had grown up in was. And of course, she carried that to ours. And I guess you don't like to see people that you love or are so interested and care about as messed up, right? That's a hard thing to accept. And I and it certainly was for me. I mean, that was like the first real relationship that I had been. And I would it was it was really hard to see that. I think one of the things I would add to that great illustration is society really isn't our friend on this topic. When you think about the number of movies that show women and men, all of us, humanity behaving badly and we laugh at it, we celebrate it, we cheer it. We're like the frog in the boiling water. As far as abusive behavior is concerned, that it's the only explanation for how leaders in all sectors of our world are getting away with this really horrible behavior to go along with that. And I have to agree with you 100 percent because I saw our relationship as like we were sitting Nancy like very turbulent, very out of control. We're always drunk. It was the romanticized to the health. And of course, you know, the neighbor girls are like, no, this is this is awful. What do you do good for the neighbor girls? I love you, neighbor girls. If you're out there, thanks for saying something to Johnny, because yeah, it can be different. And with that, right, the glamorization of the resolution at the end, right, the movie, it happens and we either laugh at it or they get back together and there's a nice tidy resolution. But in most cases with abuse, it's not a tidy ending. It's it's not a resolution that we want. And our listeners are probably wondering, this is emotional bid month. Why are we talking about this? And we were talking yesterday about this, that fine line, right, when when people are giving emotional bids, as we talked about with Michael Sorensen, there are positive and there are negative emotional bids. Yes. And sometimes people will resort to negative emotional bids, angry outbursts when their positive bids have been turned away from. Well, and to go along with that, how neglect plays a role in sustained damage that is hurts that stays on. And so we'll be discussing that as well. Obviously, having been a coach, well, obviously, being a coach, working with clients over the last 20 years, I wonder in your experience, obviously, you're now bringing to light these abusive stories, sharing them with our audience. And I think that thank you for that. How many of us have been through the abuse cycle, realize that we're wrong and then seek out mentorship, seek out coaching? And in your situation, was coaching and working on yourself, improving yourself a part of breaking that abuse cycle? A hundred percent isn't a big enough answer. But you know how it's like, you don't say a hundred and one percent because that doesn't exist. But yes, I mean, I mentioned it earlier, but your the work that you do at Art of Charm, for example, I used to be a painfully shy, painfully socially awkward, could not say a peep to anybody in public like person. So investing in myself, whether it be through great books or programs or in person gatherings with people who are focused intently on the better version of ourselves. Without that, I would never be able to sit in front of you and say, you know, now we have a relationship. That's really it's a model for how to get beyond because here's the good news. Do you want to hear the good news? Yes. Beyond that abusive relationship is is the wonderful, passionate relationship, but passionate in a good way. When you've converted that anger energy into wonderful passion energy, the happily ever after is, I think, better than in some ways than if you've never experienced this kind of struggle. Right. And I feel like there are many coaches and mentors out there who have come from broken backgrounds, work through it themselves and now want to share this and unlock this potential in other people. I think it's very easy for a lot of listeners and a lot of people to assume that the coach has a sterling background. He has they've had it figured out their entire lives. In large part, a lot of times these moments, these critical moments in our life inspire us enough not only to change, but then impact other people to help them change and break the cycle. Would you prefer to go sailing with someone who's never been in a storm or go with someone who's been through every storm imaginable? Well, I could see six. I would probably avoid the boat, but definitely with an experienced captain who's been through some storms. Right. And honestly, the analogy I like to use, I like to use food analogies because my husband's a chef. I live a very blessed life. Yes. How many of you enjoy oysters? You know, just a plate of oysters. And, you know, you know that sometimes when an oyster gets a piece of grit inside it, like that thorn in your foot when you're hiking, it the oyster creates a pearl out of that grit. So if the grit is whatever struggle that you have in your life, whether it be, you know, inability to understand emotional bidding quite yet or inability to socialize well or inability to get that promotion. That piece of grit is what starts the pearl. In fact, I feel sorry for the oyster that doesn't get a grit. It never gets to experience a pearl. So I like to put that idea on it because, you know, when we talk about these things, it can feel very tough. Like, well, crap, thanks a lot. Now I'm aware. Right. And a lot of times when you're in it, you don't think there's going to be a better side to it, right? You only see what's before your nose. And I think it's important to be vulnerable and be honest about our background so that those listening who are going through it can see the silver lining, see the other side or at least see an opportunity to break the cycle and remove themselves from the situation. Yeah, I feel like particularly maybe for our women listeners, but certainly for everyone that we have a collective fear of being vulnerable, as you say, AJ, and it actually is a doorway. It's such a doorway to it's a doorway to everything we want. You talk a lot about it in your past episodes. Yeah, and I feel like the more that I've opened up about my past, as difficult as it's been over the years, whether it's with friends or family or even with the audience, the deeper the connection that I've been able to forge has been. And we talk about emotional bids as the start of that connection. It's it's what we need to pay attention to. It's the other person offering up a little bit of vulnerability, whether, hey, come check this out or, hey, I'm struggling. I need your help. I need this attention. I feel that that vulnerability that comes through the other side of not only dealing with the issues, but being open enough to share the issues creates a much deeper connection, allows other people to see you as more whole. Obviously, in the social media world, everyone wants to project the most perfect version of themselves. And we laugh about how many photos we delete before we post that one that we like. But these are those critical moments in my life that have made me a stronger individual that have driven me and motivated me to push beyond my limits, emotionally, mentally, physically, so I can get to the other side. And I think, you know, a lot of this breaking of the cycle is also around having a tough conversation. And many of us are too afraid to have the difficult conversations with our abuser. We are terrified of stepping into that unknown because we don't want to rock the boat. And you are an expert in tough conversations, having gone through this. So in those moments where you're feeling fear and you you know that something is wrong and you want to say something, but you just can't bring yourself to it. What is some advice that you would give to our listeners who now maybe are recognizing some of these patterns in themselves, having heard us share and just don't know where to begin to break that cycle? I am of the belief that it is really important to have this conversation with yourself first. It's the rehearsal, if you would, before having the conversation with the actual human being you might be thinking of internal emotional bids. I like to think of them as like I'm having my own bid for my own attention for my own conversation. Hello, how about that? So the model for tough conversations that I like to use that I have coached and taught for a number of years. I call it the Delta model. It Delta just is like it's a nice triangle shape. So I like the name. So there's three points to the Delta model for conversations. It's super simple, super easy to remember. Really, it can be used in almost I can't think of a circumstance where you can't use it and you can use it for yourself. So where am I now? That's the first question on the three. Where am I now? You know what? Listening today. Maybe you have some statements now that are along the lines of. Uh, crap, I realize something about one of my relationships. Deep breath. This is making me a little, you know, whatever it is, freaked out or concerned or whoa, hang on a minute. And and whatever other stream of consciousness you can come up with any answer to where am I now? That's the beginning of the tough conversation. Because, you know, just like with the GPS, you can't get anywhere unless you know where you are. So where am I now is the first question. The second question is where do you want to go? The GPS model actually fits it. Where do you want to go? All right. In this moment, if you're realizing you're having a tough relationship, where would you like to be? Oh, maybe I'd like to have a conversation with this person that went well. Maybe I'd like to be out of this relationship. Maybe I don't know, but I'd like to have clarity about where I'd like to go. Maybe I'm confused about it. Those are all desires for a place you're not. So where are where would you like to go? Second question in this model for having tough conversations. And then the third and final question is, OK, I know where I am. I know where I want to go. How do I get there? Right. How do I get there? And then that's a big conversation. There's lots of ways, like again, through coaching or mentoring or speaking with a colleague or a new friend, whatever it is, there is a lot of work entailed in the answer to number three. But hopefully, if you have this three-point conversation with yourself, you'll start to gain an awareness of how to have that conversation with the person you have in mind. Right. And I feel that it takes self-reflection first. Right. You can't figure out where you want to go if you have no idea of what the starting point is. And looking internally, for me, was a big first step, getting that information, realizing, whoa, OK, I thought internally that I was behaving a certain way. Now I realize I wasn't. OK, what are these other moments that have been critical that I may have been mistreating others? I may have been abusing the people that I cared about. And this delves now into that boundary conversation. Right. And for me, one of the most impactful conversations I had, where a boundary was being drawn, was with someone I was dating who said, I don't feel loved when you treat me this way. And it was jarring to hear that, obviously, because you love and care about this person. But it is about being firm in what you need as a human to feel loved, supported, needed, versus the behavior that's being exhibited from the other person that isn't checking those boxes for you. Yeah. I think what you're pointing to is really helpful. When we're in a conversation, the thing to remember is there's more than one of you. So if you use the Delta model to get clear like you did, AJ, where you are, in an ideal scenario, the other person, person B, let's call them, is doing the same. That's not always the case. That's why we get into trouble. If that's the case, maybe you could have them listen to this podcast. But then if both person A and person B have done that sorting out, then the conversation is going to go much better. Then we can have those same three questions apply to the two of you. Where are we now? Where do we want to go and how are we going to get there? A lot of the mess that happens in conversation happens because those things aren't covered. One person hasn't gotten themselves clear or both. And then together, they haven't asked those same questions. Right. And a lot of times in that situation, one party will be the one who gets those boxes checked and the other party just kind of takes agreement with it, but they aren't as prepared for that conversation. Yes. And where boundaries comes in is yeses said without boundaries, and my opinion is just appeasement. That's just appeasement. And noes said without compassion is just outright warfare sometimes in conversation. So we actually need to talk about the relationship between yeses and noes when it comes to boundaries. Great point. I feel a lot of times when the boundary is drawn, both sides actually feel some relief because it adds clarity. Yes. So in this situation, and we're going to talk about one of the questions a little bit later here that Michael brought up about emotional bids and being too needy and feeling like you're constantly agreeable, most times the other person sitting across from you doesn't even realize that they crossed. They didn't even realize that there was a boundary in that they were hurting you, they were impacting you in a negative way. And that conversation is difficult as it may feel to you not having set boundaries allows both parties to feel some level of comfort. It clarifies things in a way that can meaningfully move the relationship forward. Yeah. I mean, I think that if both parties are there because they generally care about each other, that should be easy. If that isn't the case and somebody is there to get something from the other person or use another person, then you'll find that out as well. And of course, that's a separate conversation, but also you'll be moving to it, you'll be going to a different place, as you were saying. Yeah. This is a chance I'd like to point out to be a hero in your life because, you know, most of us are complacent kind of running around going, oh, I'm having bad conversations and toxic relationships. And hopefully that's not you, you're listening. So you are already taking positive action. We love that about you. But if you are willing to actually go into this and say, look, I heard about this way of having conversations with three questions, would you be willing to go through them with me and see if we could have better conversations going forward? You know what? I give you the Boy Scout or Girl Scout badge right away for being a leader. One conversation at a time, it really becomes infectious. Your role modeling for the people around you, whether you have kids or you have nephews or brothers and sisters, parents, you can learn to have a better conversation. And to me, that's the biggest superhero role you could play in your life. And there's two frames going on there that I really enjoy. The first is that you're not coming in and saying, do this, do that. You're using questions and questions allow both of you to reach the conclusion together. The second thing is you're not coming in as the expert. Just because you read something from someone else, you're actually crediting them saying, hey, look at these three questions I found from so-and-so versus coming in and making demands of the other person. And when you set both of those frames, it allows both parties to participate more freely. When you start making accusations or making demands or pushing on the other person, oftentimes you're just going to find them retreat and a resolution is nowhere to be seen. I love how you put that. In fact, I would just take a moment to highlight that really what we're describing right now is in fact, what I think of as the essence of coaching is to lead with questions, take a coaching approach to your relationships in your life, instead of telling, instead of dictating, instead of demanding. When you get into a right coaching relationship, this is what happens is that everybody gets to let their guard down, feel safe and like they belong, that their voice will matter, and then together you get to move forward. Yeah, in all the years that I've had of coaching, whether it was from athletics to business coaching, relationship coaching, I've found that when questions are used and you are interrogated and given a platform to explain yourself, that's when the breakthroughs actually occur. It's our favorite thing to do in class. We ask a lot of questions and allow everyone else to fill in those answers so that they can determine exactly where they're at. It's an amazing thing. And it's more impactful because when the person being coach reaches the conclusion through answering the questions, they feel empowered to take action versus the coach telling someone here, follow this formula, do specifically this. Oftentimes they'll stop step one, step two, because they don't have any where with all, they don't have any passion behind that action. They're being dictated to and a lot of times it's more passive. If we can ask the right questions, we can unlock your potential. And that's what the best coaches do. Ask yourself, in fact, in this moment, haha, see what I did there? Ask yourself where in your life you could up level the culture of your everyday experience, how could you up level it? So there are more questions in each of those segments. Where could you get more questions about your relationships? Well, here, art of charm, great. Where could you have better questions about your career? Where could you up level the questions you're asking about your financial well-being? And then know this. Know that you yourself have the power to do that up leveling by asking yourself more questions. Asking the Delta model questions. It's such a simple intervention. Anybody can do it any day, anytime. It's a great up level. And my favorite question is why? I find that so many of us we're creatures of habit. And we build up these habits and routines and patterns oftentimes without even thinking through them, whether we passively absorb them from our family members or from the workplace. And I know even in the business coaching that we're getting currently, my coach Matt will ask, well, why are you doing it that way? And then I stopped to think and I go, I don't know. I don't know. It's a wonderful thing to get to that point as well. Because also these things, they get hardened and compounded over time. So a question like that, it's like, well, it's what we've always done. Okay, well, great. Who started this, right? And then you start to think about it. And he's like, well, okay, well, were they a marketing expert? Let's say, well, no, they were just one of our staff members. Had an idea. Start doing it. Okay, we'll have the results been impactful. You know, I don't know. And when you start hearing, I don't know, as a coach, that's when the magic's happening. Because now you start to make real realizations in your life. And you can change these patterns. And I think that's the most empowering. You don't have to be a slave to these patterns. Well, and also we're living in a world today where those asking and answering those questions is a difficult thing. Because you might not like what the answer is. And so because, and we had it here, it's difficult conversations. These are difficult questions. How many people today, the minute they get uncomfortable, automatically pick up the phone and go to Facebook so they don't have to deal with having to have that? Or some of us, once that question gets popped up, can't do anything but answer that question. Like a dog with a bone, yeah. I mean, one of my favorite things to use in coaching is a little saying. And that is learning is what happens only when we don't know what to do. If you know what to do, you're not learning something. So the comfort with discomfort that Johnny you're referring to is, again, another leadership skill. And being able to be patient through that not knowing is, I think, a sign of a mature nervous system. Someone who isn't reflexively knocking this beautiful art of trying to mug off the table. Doing the doughnuts in the car, whatever it is. Celebrate, if you can, not knowing with the understanding that that's when you're learning something new that's going to break out of your habitual grooves. And I feel the other common thread that we both get in here as coaches is how to be more authentic. And a lot of times we have these patterns running and we have this agreeableness about us and we want people to like us. And it leads us down a path of inauthenticity. How can our listeners become more authentic now that they've realized some of these things about themselves to present themselves in a way that allows them to actually feel more comfortable as well, right? Because inauthenticity leads to a lot of the anxiety that we're all feeling. My personal experience with authenticity, there's so much that can be said, but something slightly different, I hope, is that it's just a question of practice. It's just about rehearsing, being authentic. So let's say you have a new truth about yourself that you know because of what we're talking about. First, talk about it to yourself, practice it. So for me, it was, hey, Andrea, you know, you have an anger issue. You know, that's really heartbreaking to admit and say to myself, but what a relief to tell the radical truth about it. First to myself, that's authenticity to myself. Again, let's talk about these things from the roots, right? The tree bears fruit based on the health of the roots. So this authenticity that we're speaking of, I would really encourage you to think about it as practice with yourself, whether it's when you look in the mirror and you're putting moose in your hair, right, Johnny? And you say, you know, I... That's my death's not nice. Oh, is it? Oh, I just want to be clear on that. It's a very technical term. I'm so out of it with the whole LA scene and hair products, clearly. Up where I live in the country, we just work kind of like, okay, I have hair today. That's all we really notice. But yeah, creating a new habit for yourself, really, to tell the truth to yourself. I like to piggyback on habit change science, which says that when you're wanting to create a new habit, the best way to do it is to hook it to something that you're already doing as a habit. So maybe hopefully you're brushing your teeth every day, let's say. So that might be a great time to try and tell the truth about yourself in some new way so that you're practicing this authenticity muscle. Right. I know one of the things that we've talked about previously is allowing those moments that are routine already to be the springboard for other routines. Perfect. And when it comes to my morning routine, it started off as just that, brushing my teeth. But now it's a little more complicated. It really is. We knocked out six and a half miles this morning. Never would have thought that'd be part of my morning routine. But now working out is a big part of the routine and creating the space for this to happen too. I think another big problem with being inauthentic is that we don't create the space for that authenticity to actually blossom. We run away from it. We duck it. These tough questions asking ourselves, I'll do that tomorrow. I'll do that next week. Oh, I got something else. It's so easy to find the iPad, find the phone, do something that is a lot less painful. But when we start to ask ourselves simple questions, why am I doing this? Why am I getting so upset by this? The answer that we find is one, reflective, but two, clarifying for the next step of growth. Exactly. You can take action from that place in a much more powerful place. Now, along with authenticity comes confidence and being more self-assured. And I know a lot of our audience is struggling with that, especially in the workplace. They feel that their career demands this level of self-assuredness and confidence, but they don't feel it internally. And I know personally I had moments of imposter syndrome even. And I'd love to hear your coaching perspective for our audience that is struggling with some confidence in their career and how can they work to overcome that lack of confidence, that lack of self-assuredness to become more impactful in the workplace? One of the coaching techniques that I like the most for this particular topic is something I call transferring excellence. And this has been studied actually within the domestic violence world, but also in the leadership studies world. And all it is is to look for a place in your life that you have even the tiniest speck of confidence. I think of it as a bread crumb of confidence. Maybe when I think back to the cute little nerdy Asian girl that I was, I was kind of confident at writing. Like I wrote my diary at first. It was because my dad made me, but then like I started to enjoy writing my diary. And I can't tell you that at that time I was so self-aware that I was like, oh, I'm confident in my diary. So I could do, that's not how it went down. But nowadays when I'm looking for more confidence as I go out into bigger arenas for my own thought leadership and my own new work, bigger arenas and bigger stages, I have to go back to these little breadcrums where I can touch that confidence. And what the science says is that if you go there and you have that, you can connect that, you can transfer that through the power of mindfulness, through all of those good visualization techniques, to the new arena you want to find confidence in. I love that. I love getting a little momentum going in the right direction off of these things that we're already doing and enjoying can lead to further confidence. Yeah, each breadcrumb, I like to say again, another food analogy. Breadcrumb, breadcrumb, breadcrumb. All of a sudden you have a crouton. Okay, putting aside the gluten-free issue for right now. Yeah, we are in California. Watch yourself there. I know, right? I got to really be aware of my sense of place. But like, and you know, even if it is a gluten-free crouton, which I am eating gluten-free right now, one crouton converts a whole salad eating experience. So one breadcrumb at a time, confidence. Again, you can't think your way to confidence. I really think that's an important point. I'm glad it came out of my mouth. It's one of those things where people are like, oh, I'm going to read a book about confidence. I'm going to do this. You got to practice confidence. Well, we were just chatting about this yesterday and we have an online product that a lot of people really enjoy doing. And it's put together to help them work through social anxieties. And of course, a few of the first missions may, on their face, value seem simple. And easy, even. Easy. And so we've, a few people were like, well, yeah, I haven't done it because, well, you know, that's a really easy thing. So I'm waiting for the harder stuff. And it's like, the excuse you just told yourself is so you don't have to face the uncomfortableness of this mission. And this is exactly why you need to be doing it. And also it's, though it may be easy in that moment, you doing it is going to add that breadcrumble that experience for the next one. Because when the hard one does come up, well, then you're freaking out because you haven't worked yourself up to that. Build your confidence before you need it. Just like with relationships. You don't go out and be like, hey, so and so I really hope you'll endorse my book or give me coaching on my new job or whatever it is the day you need it, right? Build it before you need it. I love that. Because how many times we hear from people who are freaking out because all of a sudden they have this new task at work or they're thrown in some situation and they're just freaking out because they haven't done any of that work because they've been waiting for the big one. Well, here it is. And now you're flailing and you're freaking out. And a big factor of confidence is experience. And it's funny you should mention that because in make yourself do anything, these comfort zone challenges that you get over seven weeks, they're small, they're easy. They're meant to be not a second job, right? Not a side hustle, but they're meant to be something you can tackle quickly. But those experience points open the door to more confidence. And it was funny on the group call that we had inside the course. I was asking what their favorite challenges were and a couple of them admitted. I didn't do any of the challenges because they seemed too easy. And then one of the participants said, you know, I ended up doing an easy challenge, the high five challenge. And I met my girlfriend by doing the high five challenge. I never would have thought that that would lead to a conversation. And actually when I read it, I thought it was pretty easy. But when you start putting yourself out there in these small ways, bigger moments happen. And it's through gaining that experience that you have the confidence to step forward in the further arena. I really enjoyed the person who mentioned that they were a bit nervous about doing it, but then they had also roped their children into doing their challenges as well. And they're doing it as a family and now they're having a blast with it. Yeah, and now his sons are running around asking Dad, what's the next comfort zone challenge? I want to do it. I want to go talk to this person. That is incredibly beautiful. I actually have an example. Can I share? You sure do. Of a young mom who I used to coach who was having a lot of trouble with her business. And we were trying to get this point through, this exact point that we're giving the coaching gold from these calls. And she had her new baby and she was watching this baby and its development. And of course, as any mom, any of you moms listening can attest, it's like there's so much learning from your child's development. And to the point we're making here, when you look at a baby's development, you'll notice that what they're doing is bread crumb oriented. They're moving a hand. They're moving the forearm. And then they're moving the elbow. And then they're doing it again and they're doing it over and over again. Until one day they've flipped over and they're on their back or they've crawled a step. These bread crumb ideas, this challenge that you guys replicate to such great effect, are at the very core of how humans develop. Biologically, this is how it works. So does it make sense that we should apply this to everything we're talking about here? Go back to baby steps. Absolutely. Every complex skill that we have, we didn't pick up the first time. It was built through baby steps, whether it's a jump shot or even marathon training. If I would have got the first run from Chris and said, oh, five miles, I could do that, that's easy. I'm not going to run that. I'm doing the one time. Well, how am I going to get to 13, one miles? It's impossible. So you can't dismiss the easy stuff, those small steps, get you on the right path to growth. And I think we would be amiss if we didn't discuss moving on from your past because after you've realized that you were abusing your husband in this case, it's very easy to fall into the victim mentality of, oh, this is just because I suffered from abuse and now this is just who I am and now I'm stuck in this rut. This defines me. Everyone listening doesn't want to be defined by their past. I know personally, I don't want to be defined by my past. Johnny, we have some checkered past to begin with, some of which we've shared on the show. So how do we move beyond our past when we realize that we've hurt people and maybe even abused people in our lives? We have to choose first. So it's the decision. It's not a process. It's a decision. You say, I want to be a different person. So that's the beginning. And there's lots that could be said about that choice point. But for today, I think what's really nice about how our conversation has progressed is how did I, as someone who was being really just God awful to my husband over prolonged periods of time, how did I redeem myself for him and for our relationship? But most importantly for me. So if you've misbehaved and you're looking in the mirror in this moment, know that I have been in your shoes. And the way that this happens is you decide it's not okay with you. And then one day at a time, one interaction at a time, you fulfill your own expectation of who you want to be. So if I wanted to be a non-angry person, in fact, I set myself a big goal at first. I wanted to be the wife that my husband bragged about. Like, you know, when you guys go to the bar and you're talking about your girlfriends or your wives and you know, there's all sorts of stuff that gets said. You know, same for us women, right? When we get together to get our pedicure or we go, you know, play baseball or whatever it is. We're talking about the men and women in our lives. You know, I wanted to be the wife that got bragged about. So I set that as a frame. And then I started to do something very practical that was like an anger and emotional resilience diary. And you guys probably don't know anything about this, but you know, for my women listeners, you know how on the calendar you mark when you're getting your menstrual cycle? Okay, we do that. Johnny, definitely. Yeah, right? We're actually on the same cycle. Are you? We've been together so long then. You know what, that makes so much sense. And you guys actually apparently do have a cycle. And you do, there's also a thing called- It's menstruating. It's an emotional period for us too. Right, and manopause is a big issue also apparently. So, you know, as a woman being very adept at keeping track of my cycle, also when, you know, I was keeping track of my fertility cycle and so on, we did not end up having kids, which is a good thing. Ended up being a decision, but we were trying for some time. Keep track of what, when anger would happen, or I would get angry, right? And in so doing, create for myself an awareness of the conditions in which I was not getting emotionally abusive. So, I would start to notice when the circumstances were supporting me, whether it be, I had my coaching session that day, that week, I attended a retreat that month, whatever it was, day by day, I fulfilled the promise to myself to stop being that previous person in my past and I rebuilt my trust with myself in that way. I love that. I feel that it's easy to take small steps and note them and track them. I know it's something that we talk about. Journaling is part of the process, too, allowing yourself to take account of, did I make the change today? Even if it was slight, did I consciously choose something? And we see this all the time. We were just in Chicago with our alumni and it's always fun to hang out with our alumni after the program and catch up. Some of them we hadn't seen in years because we remember so crystal clear that Tuesday when we started class and who they were on that Tuesday and their social anxiety, the fear that they were feeling around, what am I going to do? How am I going to go out? I've never gone out and socialized before it makes me uncomfortable to where they are now where it started on the boot camp a conscious decision. I'm going to go out, I'm going to get a couple high fives. I'm going to consciously make sure that I'm approaching. I'm going to consciously make sure that I'm setting myself up for success. This past week and in Chicago, we're looking around and they're running around talking to everyone and it's completely unconscious to them now. It starts with conscious action, builds the habit that leads to unconscious action. You don't even have to think about it any longer. So good. And when we can denote these little steps consciously, we can start to pick up some small wins that become big wins. And it's funny we asked them at the end of the weekend, so I don't remember you acting like this on boot camp. How does it feel now that you're so social and they're like, I don't even realize it? No, because it was once again started small and worked its way up and now it's now habit and it's part of just who they are as a person. I feel like I want to make a Seinfeld reference. Is that uncool or is that okay? Seinfeld's still cool. Okay. Well, speak for yourselves. He had an episode. Maybe our listeners can pinpoint which episode it was, but it was called Don't Break the Chain. If you guys remember and it was, it speaks exactly to this, it's like gamifying of our lives that if I could create a whole week, at first it was just like, give me please a week of proving to myself that I can be someone trustworthy around emotions and anger. Can you play for a month? Can you play for a year? Okay. At this point I'm playing for years, years upon years of good expression of emotion and anger and I'm so grateful for everything that supported me to bring me to today and the relationship with my husband. But try to play the game. Don't break the chain. Just like Jerry Seinfeld said, let Jerry Seinfeld be your coach for a day. How many times can you mark a check mark on the calendar that says, I achieve that, I achieve that, I achieve that? I love it. Let's dig into some listener questions here. We got some great ones. The first one here, Joel wants to know, how do you deal with breathlessness in situations that have caused you to be anxious? For example, in challenging social, for example, in challenging social situations where you're eager to give off a good impression, how do you deal with that breathless anxiety? Well, I guess I'll kick this one off. I think we've already answered it through this podcast, which is it's taking steps early to slowly work yourself there. How are you going to get through something like this if you've never been in this situation and you have to give yourself room to be terrible at it and that is okay because it's the first time that you've put yourself there. How do you get yourself out of trouble if you've never been there before? And breaking the chain helps with those things, showing opportunities where in that situation you've worked through it and journaling saying, well, it wasn't as bad as last time, I'm slowly getting better and being able to celebrate what we call small victories and how important those are. And I completely agree with the baby step concept we talked about earlier as well. These moments of breathlessness are us throwing ourselves to the wolves. We're jumping in the deep end. And a lot of times we haven't done the work prior to set ourselves up for that success. So making it a habit to approach people, not the most intimidating beautiful woman across the bar or a gorgeous guy, but making it a habit to be more social. And one of the first things that we talk about is we'll be social with the people who are paid to entertain you. The staff, the barista, those are small wins that over time can work through this anxiety. This situation that he's talking about in large part is because he's lacking a bit of experience of socializing and it happens to all of us. I also want to add to that. I was speaking of journaling. I realized the other day there was something that we had to do and I was frustrated about it and I had to analyze why am I being frustrated in this situation? This should be fun, right? Something new. And I realized this one thing you as somebody who has to work with it, you probably know this really well, but I hate, I have no problem walking into the unknown as long as I'm willingly and wantingly doing it. I hate being forced into the unknown. Forcing me into the unknown, my first response is to freak out. My first response is to get mad. My first response is whatever I need to do is just, I'm dealing with the unknown. However, once that washes over, I'm like, okay, wait a minute here. Here's an opportunity to do something new, okay. What have I done in the past that may be a reference point for what I'm about to do? And seeing how I'm stuck here in the unknown and I'm going to work through this, it's probably not gonna go so well and I'm gonna be awkward and clunky about it. However, I'm going to be better for it. So that's okay, but it takes me a minute to get there sometimes. But if it's a, I could easily walk in any unknown situation wantingly and willingly. It's just what I'm thrown in there that the freak out happens. And of course, looking at this, I could see this person having to do a presentation for work and not being ready for it and all of a sudden pulling the freak out. Yeah, Joel, I, and everybody who can relate to this, I mean, I definitely am raising my hand. I can relate to this. I do definitely still get breathlessness. And one of the things I'd love to offer is sort of a counterpoint to everything great that has gone before is that, hey, let's employ our bodies in this. Breath, after all, is a function of the physical body and not of the mind. So one of the things that I could offer is that if you don't mind singing or whistling or humming, try that. It's a neuroscience thing. Why? Because it causes you to take longer, smoother breaths. Can you hear, even in my vocal tone, I'm creating that if I were to be breathless right now, I would try to make my voice and my breathing, my phrases a little longer. It causes that fight or flight breath to dissipate when you do that. You don't even have to sing out like if you're going before the board of advisors with the presentation, you want to burst out in Oklahoma or anything like that. But you could think about singing. Even thinking about singing has been proven to slow your breath, slow your heartbeat, let your nervous system drop out of fight or flight. And I couldn't agree more. I've gone through public speaking training. And one of the first things they had us do, because everyone is nervous when they have to get up on stage, it is universal, is silly singing to get our nervous system to calm down, to get our breathing right. Because what happens when we get breathless, we deprive the body of what it needs in its oxygen. And that fight response comes in and then it becomes even harder to control. So I love that tidbit of advice based in science, which we always love as well. Right. And let me tie it in, if I may, just back to a call back to what we were speaking of earlier. Breathlessness actually is sometimes a precursor to emotional outburst. So whether you're breathless still because of the emotionality or not, noticing that taking these longer phrases of breath, breathing through your feet, utilizing your meditation habit, whatever version of your deeper, longer breathing it is, can actually bring you back from angry outbursts when you're on the brink of that. And the last thing I want to say on this is it is okay. I think a lot of times we assume that we should never feel this way. And the goal is to avoid it. But this is to be human. I still get nervous. I still get breathless when I'm presenting, even though I've taken courses, I've done it for years. It is normal. So I just want to add giving yourself a little forgiveness. I know a lot of perfectionists are listening and we strive for greatness, but it's okay to feel breathless at times as well. It should not be the end goal. Amen. Steven is asking, I have this friend I'm really connected with and we share very good friendship. However, in her search for support, she can throw a lot of emotional bids and requests for attention, more than I can handle sometimes. How can I deal with this excessive emotional bids? I manage to keep my attention to her at a reasonable level, but she keeps asking for more and I don't want to lose the connection with her. Great question around boundaries. Yes. I think this one is a perfect place to remind us that Steven, in your case, you are having an emotional bit of your own. Within this scenario of your friend bidding for your attention, you're having a reaction that is, hey, I have needs here too. A little less emotional bidding would be nice. So as we said earlier, take stock for yourself what's going on for yourself. What's where am I now? I'd like for her to be doing less emotional bidding. Where would you like to go? I just answered it. And now the only unanswered question is, how are you going to get what you need? So in this particular case, I am a fan of radical honesty and really having a moment that says, could I talk to you about this concept called emotional bidding if you haven't already talked to her about it? I noticed that you're doing quite a bit of that and of course I do it too. What is it that we can do to make sure you feel like I'm hearing your bid? So that maybe it isn't as frequent or maybe you don't even need to ask for it as frequently. That kind of radical honesty, once again, I think of that as heroic leadership conversation and would be one way I'd like to see you try it. I was recently reading an Ask Polly article on New York Magazine that Amy had sent to me and it was around this exact concept, right? Friends mistreating us and we don't want to lose our friends and a lot of times when the mistreatment happens whether it's this need, constant need for attention that takes the spotlight away from you or this constant need for your time and I love the advice from Ask Polly which was be honest about what you need because a lot of times our friends don't know what we need. We're living in our own head and we have expectations that we place on people but they are completely unaware of those expectations. And having an honest conversation with someone is, as we said earlier around boundaries, is impactful. It gains clarity for both parties and I guarantee you that Steven's friend would enjoy that conversation because they value Steven as a friend and people who, to Johnny's point, people who care about you, they care about your boundaries too. I know it's difficult in the moment to feel that way and you don't want to hurt their feelings but they will feel better knowing how they can support you and how they can be a better friend to you if they care about you. The flip side is, if she negatively reacts to this, well, I think we can put her in the not friend category, right? So you gain clarity. One of the things and I didn't really want to go there because I wanted to keep this question on the positive note but I wanted to ask Steven to ask himself a hard question here as well. He talks about they have a great connection and they're really good friends. I'd like for him to figure out the write down what is the value that he is getting out of this relationship because my first thought when I saw this was something was off and I don't want to get into that but I want Steven to ask himself that question because as you said, that's going to see right there where that relationship truly is if it's not one sided. Put it to you this way. I'll give you a visual. Think of a mom and her toddler. Okay, maybe the mom is washing dishes. Maybe the mom is at the computer running her business. And the toddler keeps pulling on the mom's skirt or shirt and keeps pulling like every two minutes. It's a bid. Okay, this toddler is bidding continuously. Now maybe it's perfectly legitimate. They have a wet diaper or whatever it is and something needs to be done about it. Or maybe it's time for the toddler to start understanding mommy needs to have some quiet. She's on the phone. So come over here and have a book and here's a sippy cup or whatever it is. That's what we're talking about. We're talking about growing up our relationship with each other. I'm not saying your friend is a toddler but it's a visual for us to really realize when we're bidding we have a little bit of that kid yearning as well. Absolutely. I love the visual that you just put on that and I had never thought of it in that manner because when we talk about when the guys get stuck in question train and it's the constant, how are you doing? Do you like that line of work? Do you like living there? How it is pulling on this person. That's a great... Tugging. Yeah, absolutely. Larry wants to know, what are some tips we can use to pick up whether someone received our emotional bids? It's easy for me to know I'm sending it but what are the different ways they show it has been received? So, Johnny, you're wearing a big smile here. Well, there's a lot in this question. I don't even know where to begin. So let me just pick something here. I'm guessing that his emotional bids are not being met. Why else would you ask this question? So then it comes to what is the situation of this relationship? That's one of the questions because if they're leaning in, well, then we know that they're getting, they're hearing it. If they're turning away, well, there's two things going on. Either they're preoccupied with it or they're either they're preoccupied or they just don't care or disinterested. They're disinterested. So we have to figure those things out. Those are some nonverbal signals, right? If they're receiving your emotional bid nonverbally, typically they'll be making eye contact. They'll be leaning in. This is you trying to connect. So obviously they're physically going to appear connected to you through eye contact facing you maybe closeness as well. Then there's the verbal side of it, right? And what is the emotional bid? We've talked about this. It's seeking attention, approval, and acceptance. So ask yourself, are you getting any of those three? Are you getting their attention? Have they appreciated you in that moment that you've offered it up and have they accepted it if it's a negative one, right? And to go along with that also, are you somebody who is tentative and answering other people's emotional bids? Because the surefire way to get the cold shoulder having people turning away is because you have it contributed. Yeah, that was bingo, bingo. Wow, that's such a great comment. I think when you're asking that question, a good place to look is how are you receiving emotional bids and what are you doing to show that person that you have received it? That might be a clue for you. Whether it's through the nonverbals we talked about or through verbally appreciating them, accepting them, and giving them your attention. Dan is asking, how do I differentiate between neediness and wanting to share a true connection? And do you recommend to always reply to another person's emotional bids, especially if someone is being constantly needy? Boundaries are coming up big in this episode. Yes, they are. And it's good. I feel like we all could use a lesson in boundaries, and I know it's something that I've struggled with as well. I was just going to say, it's something I've gotten a lot of trouble for because I think I draw hard boundaries that I tend to stick to, that kind of rub people the wrong way sometimes. I certainly know in a work environment, we've run into that. Yes, you do draw hard boundaries. I'm just happy that after 10 years, you're starting to come to some of these realizations. Oh, that's been very... We need to gain Johnny's agreement to get him to go in the unknown and share that with the team. Now you're aware of it as well, so that's good. That one was a new revelation. And the hard boundaries. That one I've always known. In your drawing these hard boundaries, Johnny, what are you doing? Well, first of all, it's allowing myself to feel safe and set up and comfortable. And I think that's a big one, right? In Dan's question, the underlying context is, his needs aren't being met. And he feels that he's constantly, whether it's through receiving these emotional bids and helping to always be attentive, appreciative, accepting of them, that his own personal needs are not being met in these relationships or the start of these relationships. I think one of the things that you could try reflecting on, Dan, is when you ask this question, the coach in me is saying, love the question. What do you mean by a true connection? That is an interesting phrase. And so I would hazard to guess that probably everybody would have a different answer. It's kind of like everybody's resume is different. So if you would be willing to answer that question a bit, what do I mean? When I say true connection, it looks like this. It looks like this much togetherness, this much individuality, this much whatever it is, that's going to really help you understand how to get it. Until you have that, you're not going to know. It's like, if you don't know where the goalposts are, you can't shoot on it, right? I like that. I also just want to add that true connection. I feel is at one of those terms that is perfection-based. And I've been in relationships where I felt extremely connected and I felt disconnected. And I feel like when we only seek true connection, we don't give us as humans who are not robots yet, right? We're working on it, singularity. We do not give people the space to be human if we're only seeking quote unquote, I'm using air quotes here, true connection. So I would look at your own needs, right? When our own needs are certainly not being met or they're being abused even, that is obviously deal breaker. Then outside of that, look at some of our own behaviors because oftentimes when we see things in others that bother us, these are behaviors that we're exhibiting ourselves. So are you being needy to the people around you in not responding to their emotional bids? And I do love that reflection around your idea of a true connection because what you have as an ideal might be unrealistic. I mean, I have a girlfriend who her definition of a true connection is to be able to walk around naked with the person all the time. It doesn't matter. That's her definition because the words and all and it doesn't, you're not sucking your belly in, you're not, you know, whatever, whatever. So I think you're right. There is a sort of like shiny new feeling to this term true connection. So maybe we could soften that. Maybe we could say, hey, it means that I get to be upset sometimes within reason. Hey, maybe it means that I don't want to be there for your current emotional bid. This is one of the two out of 10 times that I'm not going to be there for them. Emotional bid. That could be a true connection, right? Michael Sorenson in his interview with us said exactly that. If you know that you can't be present, state that. Hey, work is kicking my ass right now. I can't give you the time and space that you need right now, but I want to as a friend and when I get through this, I will be there to be more supportive. Wow, what a relief, right? Just saying that I'm feeling a little relieved. So we're putting expectations on the other person and we're placing heavy expectations on ourselves that being honest can help mitigate. Vanneet asks, how can I identify emotional bids from texts? Well, first of all, why is there? I'm just going to assume the positive that maybe there's a long distance in the relationship or they're not able to meet in person. Because my first thought when I saw that is, why are you trying to have a conversation, a meaningful conversation over text? If it's at that point, I would say, if you can, pick up the phone. Because, and certainly emojis are not going to help. What do you mean? You don't do the winky tongue outlook in real life, Johnny? You know, it was, I listen, I can write with emojis like the best of them. But you know, just something I heard the other day of how maybe it was 10, 15 years ago, everyone saw emojis as childish behavior on communication through phones. And now it is quintessential. They handle any sort of news or nuance because everything now is dealt with through text. Just pointing that something I'm just dealing with. But you know, I wonder if Dr. Gottman realized that emotional bidding through texts and emojis was going to be a thing. We need a new study. Dr. Gottman, get on it. Yes. Yeah. Again, I want to take a step back and just unpack the definition of emotional bid because I think this is a lack of clarity on what the definition is. It is when one person is expressing to another party that they want their attention, appreciation, acceptance. Yes. Now, over text. There are definite ways to have an emotional bid. I just had this awful day at work. That's an emotional bid. They want you to pick up the phone, meet in person, text back. They want a response versus an emoji. I think we could all agree that's not an emotional bid. It's being a little silly and playful. Where Johnny and I are trying to draw the line here is say, guys, let's try not to foster every connection in the digital age. I was just laughing. I just had this picture of some guy texting some girl at like, you know, 1.30 in the morning. So she is not responding to my emotional bids. Dr. Gottman would not. Oh, man, I'm going to refrain from commenting. Vinit also asks, what role does body language play in exhibiting emotional bids? And we kind of unpacked this a little bit earlier. But exactly that turning towards, right? In the definition that Dr. Gottman talks about turning towards someone means you're physically turning towards them. You are being 100% present. Yes. And listen, I started watching this documentary on HBO called Swiped. And I do feel bad for younger generations because the way the dating is working, going completely digital and the overwhelm there are with options now. And they had a scientist on who was talking about how human nature was not built to have as many options as we currently have. We were not evolved in a way that we would have this many options, right? Human sexuality was we're in a tribe and we maybe have, you know, 2030 partner opportunities. And then we got civilized and we had more opportunities. But you still to meet in person. Now we're in a situation where you don't have to meet in person at all. And literally there's unlimited opportunity in your phone. It's impossible to compute that for what this brain is trained to do. Right. And I think a lot of times simply meeting in person is the answer here, guys. Trying to force it through text and emojis and digital is not the way to go about fostering a true connection, fostering a real connection. Patrick asks, how do you respond to an emotional bid when you don't really care about the topic? For example, when a friend went on a weekend city trip and she was excited about the architecture and the food culture, but you don't care about those two things. Oh, I have an answer for this one. It comes from Asian culture, actually. Some of you might know, if you're familiar with Japanese culture, that there is a habit that Japanese speakers have that basically is a, so this guy, like it's yes. Oh, really, like this. And that's the equivalent. It's like you can actually answer the bid without agreeing with the content. So you're acknowledging there is the existence of a bid, but you don't have to actually agree with what's being said. And I couldn't agree more. I feel like there's again, a little bit of a misunderstanding around what the emotional bid is. This person sharing this architecture and food culture is not sharing it because they want you to say you love it too. It's not about you, it's about them. It's a little simpler than we make it out to be. And I think what Patrick is trying to get at is this concept of a we statement that we discuss in bootcamp where when someone's giving us an emotional bid, one of the most crystal clear ways to give that person a response to the emotional bid is to make a we statement to take what they're saying and now make it about us instead of just about them. And with this example, simple we statement is along the lines of great. Next time we go traveling, you can help me see all the culture that that city has to offer. Boom. You actually paid attention, which is one of the most important steps in responding to an emotional bid and gave them appreciation for the fact that they love this stuff, not that you love this stuff, not that you have to agree with it, but you shared some appreciation for the fact that they love this stuff. That's all they're looking for. Hey, you mentioned bootcamp. I heard a vicious rumor. Uh-oh. Is it true? Because I really want to know that you are going to be opening up bootcamps to women as well now. It's already on the books. It is on the books. For real, it's not just a vicious rumor. No, cat's out of the bag. If it's on this podcast, no longer a rumor. Because this thing you just talked about about we statements, I think is if I reflect back to my personal growth and how to navigate tough conversations and emotional conversations, try to step into my emotional leadership. I know a lot of my sisters and friends and, you know, all of us as humans really, we could use so much more of that. I just tried to make a wee statement. And I'm so happy to hear because I've heard so much good about your bootcamps today that, I mean, hallelujah, I want to know when they are. Thank you. And we're really excited. Yeah. We have one coming up in October and we have one coming up in February. And if it goes like gangbusters, fingers crossed, we will be offering more opportunities for women to work with us because I know my inbox and Johnny's inbox is full of women saying, guys, can we take this program you've been talking about? Can we take this bootcamp? And when we started 12 years ago, we started classically with dating. That was our focus as guys. How do we get better with this? Obviously, we have some guys asking questions around how to deal with the opposite sex, but we've learned that navigating relationships in the workplace, as we talked about earlier, in our family, these are such valuable skills that aren't taught in school. Yes. I never encountered emotional bids in school. And if I had an opportunity to go to college where Dr. Gottman is teaching, I probably would have skipped that class thinking that's not for me. But learning about emotional bids has been so impactful in every relationship in my life. And let's be honest, we all want confidence. We all want to feel more self-assured about ourselves and lean into our careers. And social skills are how we lean into our career. Getting jobs through your network. When we talk about how people advance in the career, well, your boss has to like you. That's a good first step. So how do we work and navigate through a world that has a digital component, but social skills are still highly valued? I have to say, I so respect how you guys are handling this because, hey, you stayed in your lane and supported people like yourselves, right? And you didn't pretend to be like, I know how to do this to support other genders. And now what I understand you're doing is really building a curriculum that is from the inside out supporting women's leadership and social skills. Doing it separately also is, I think, really important. We need to be able to practice in not just safe spaces, but brave spaces. And that really goes, I think, to, that would be the phrase that when I tell my women friends about your new women's boot camps, it'll be that, you know, it's a safe place to gain all this mastery and excellence. But it's also a brave space in the way that you challenge people to create breadcrumbs at a time confidence in everything they want in their lives. So a lot of respect, hashtag, respect. And we're excited. We have a number of women that work in the company that have coached our guys over the years. And exactly that, guys have been coming to us for over a decade to get honesty and to get that clarity and to be able to ask our female coaches what they think about it, not just what Johnny and I think about it. And I think it's going to be fun for Johnny and I to offer up an opportunity for the women to ask us what we think and feel about it. And then also to have our female coaches work closely with the women to build up their own confidence and to build up these social skills that everyone can benefit from. And then you're going to be able to synergize. I see that in your future of beautiful, bright AOC future. I can't wait for two AOC alumni to get married. That and the first AOC baby. Yes, the first AOC baby. You need to get the swag, get the snuggly AOC. We're working on it. Love nice Sean up in Milwaukee is hooking us up with some merch. So stay tuned for that. We're going to have some merch available on the website for all of our fans. You can't make it out here to LA. The guys have been loving the snapbacks they get as the graduation ceremony on boot camp. All right. Shamil wants to know my girlfriend of two years broke up with me about a month back. And in that month, we didn't give each other enough time to separate. And I can tell that she harbored negative emotions towards me. I decided to go forward with no contact and it is now day two of that. And I believe that is the right thing to do to allow her to heal from the hurt I caused her and to allow myself to heal from the hurt she caused me. My question is, how do I judge when to reinstate contact? Will she have to be the one to initiate contact? And how do I get her back in general outside of improving myself? It's funny. We were going through the questions a little bit earlier before we hopped on the mics here. And I feel like we've all been there. Yes. Guys and girls. And it is very difficult to have someone you care deeply about. Someone you feel strongly towards, say, this isn't working for me. This is not what I signed up for. This no longer interests me. And of course, if things did not separate in that moment, and you were whether it was forced to live together or work together, and the opportunity to heal was never given, there are going to be a lot of raw negative emotions that you have to work through both of you. The first thing I want to say is it doesn't to me feel like he's fully worked through his own emotions. No. It seems to me he's trying to rush the process of her working through her emotions, which is understandable without actually giving himself space to work through his own emotions around it. The second thing that jumps out at me is the very last question. How do I get her back in general outside of improving myself? So let's just take a step back. This person you care about deeply in your life has said, I don't feel the same way for you right now. That's not going to change unless you change. It's impossible. She's telling you that she doesn't like this version of you. Now, if you're a listener of the show, obviously, you know, we're going to go through lots of versions of ourselves in our lives. And working on ourselves should always be the goal, whether or not it's a breakup that is the genesis of it. So I do not in any way want to discount improving yourself because this is a fantastic opportunity for that self-reflection that we talked about earlier, for moving beyond our past, for growing as a human. And I can tell you in the solicited and unsolicited feedback I've gotten from my ex-girlfriends, they've always been very beneficial to my own personal growth. I would say, take heed of the reasons that she gave you and the reasons for this breakup. If she was comfortable enough to be honest with you and share what it was that drove her to this point, listen to them. This is coming from someone who cares about you, cared about you deeply, probably still cares about you and knows you in an intimate level, right? Girlfriend, boyfriend, we share a lot of time together. They get to pick up all of the quirks and everything about us. They see more of us than most people, even our close friends see of us. So her response is telling you that in order for this to even have a remote possibility of getting back together, you have to change. That's inevitable. So we can't discount that. So that last question, how do I get her back in general without improving myself? I'm sorry. The answer is you have to improve yourself. Now, it doesn't mean you have to spend years and years and years, but it means that you have to improve yourself for you. Well, and it's certainly, I mean, he's got a, it's a month. Nothing, nothing. Johnny, did you go from zero to running half marathon in a month? No. Nothing. Nothing. It happens in a month, especially in a situation where it's clear that they didn't even give each other space in that month, right? We're talking two days worth of space here. One of the things I would love to add is that as you can probably tell, I'm a big proponent of reconnecting with our emotions in our lives. And, you know, we're smart people, right? And we use our brain so often in our work, we can tend to overthink things. In this particular case where I get hit right in my heart on this is I feel like there is a process at the end of a relationship that gets minimized and that is mourning and grieving the loss of what could have been the possibility that now the door is shut, that perhaps there is a possibility that that could rekindle. But for right now, is it all right, everybody, that we make friends with the sadness, make friends with the grief, just like losing any other relationship because, you know, of death or something else? I think that that's an important thing to give space for. I also want to point out that she wants space. I mean, that's clear in this question. So, how do I judge when to reinstate contact? Will she have to be the one to initiate? Unfortunately, yes. To be broken up with, to have someone break up with you is a very implicit ask for space. And you rushing back and you trying to initiate and you trying to say, hey, look, I changed, see, I'm new AJ over here, AJ 2.0, I'm ready. I did everything you said is not going to restore the relationship. Now, is there a possibility that she will reinitiate contact when she's played the field, she's worked on herself, she's realized through her own self-reflection, morning grief, that she rushed to judgment and maybe she acted mistakenly? Yes, there is that possibility. But no amount of you pushing the gas on reinstating contact while not dealing with the self-improvement that needs to come out of this process is going to win her back. And the other thing is you're going to have to get the idea of getting back together, offer your mind for well so that you can reconnect with yourself. And the only way to do that in a healthy manner is start improving yourself, get obsessed with it. And that's where change is going to come. That's where you can focus on something else and allow nature to run its course. The last question today, I think, buttons up our emotional bid month quite easily and clearly. Are there keywords or phrases that we should pay attention to that indicate emotional bids? Jeff, I'm very sorry to tell you. It is not in the words, it is in the intent. When we start paying attention to people's intentions, we start recognizing emotional bids. Trying to pretend we're Google and just scanning for keywords is not a way to create connection. I was going to say the emotional bid is the keyword, is the phrase that you want to be looking for, but it's in the word. What I love about the question, though, is the sincerity. What I get from all the questions and from all the listening that I'm doing around your guys' work is that, oh, everybody cares so much about good relationships, great boundaries, communication, but also just becoming the best possible version of yourself. So in my book, that makes you a hero already today. Listening to this is an indication, whether you're Jeff or someone else, bravo to you. And as coaches, that's who we love working with, right? All of these questions come from people who want to work on themselves, want to improve where they are and know that they can grow, and we couldn't ask for anything better as coaches, and that's why we've been doing this as long as we have, and we're on the same path. This whole idea of emotional bids when I first heard it, I was concerned, yeah, what are the keywords? What's the easiest way to get to that next step? But listening to the intent, being more present, whether it's through mindfulness practice, whether it's through putting yourself out there or going to an artichoke boot camp to really immerse yourself in this idea and unpack emotional bids, those are all great opportunities for growth. We've been talking and teaching about emotional bids for years now, four or five years. So it's always funny to watch people do video work and the question of, okay, so what are the emotional bids? And then we go, what? After the case, so here's the definition. How much you catch? What? So they can be tricky, but once you're trained for them, you see them everywhere, and you can get amazingly, you can get very good with them. And of course, as Michael said, and we see it, they are a superpower. Thank you so much, Andrea, for leaving your small island in British Columbia, coming all the way down here to the big city to experience Cluton and LaCroix and Johnny's Mud. We had a lot of fun today. Thank you so much for joining us. It was a pleasure. Thank you for having me. And where can our listeners find more information about the Delta method, tough conversations, and breaking the abuse cycle? We need to talk. It's the name of the book that I wrote that has more detail about the Delta model. You can find that at Amazon and a bookstore near you. And more information about me can be found at my personal website, AndreaJLee.com. That's where I'll be doing most of my emotional abuse, emotional leadership, emotional resilience work from here on. Thank you so much.