 Boom, what's up everyone? Welcome to simulation. I'm your host on sake and we are still at the American Anthropological Association's annual meeting And I am super excited now to be sitting down dr. Diego V. Heal. Thank you for joining us on the show my pleasure Thank you really appreciate. I'm really excited to talk to you Let's give a background on Diego Urban anthropologists focus on Mexican Americas professor emeritus of social ecology at UC Irvine PhD in anthropology from UCLA and various teaching and administrative positions focus on ethno history education cultural change ache acculturation and Adolescent and youth issues especially street gangs and he's a six-time author everything from street smart school smart to from Indians to Chicanos to gang redux to a rainbow of gangs personas mexicanas and barrio gangs So I'm really excited to talk to you because it's like you've been Analyzing something that is very pressing that society needs to learn about which is the way that we We behave in and engage with With culture of youth that is kind of splits when I was learning about you have analyzed the way that That humans split due to social and economic pressures into either gangs or normal life Yes, that's correct. Yeah I have a theoretical framework that I utilize to explain all the varying facets of this split It's called multiple marginality because I don't just focus on one factor one force I talk about the cumulative additive nature of all the different forces that affect youth and turn them to the streets and then as part of that Street socialization they develop a street identity Unfortunately that one of the dominant street forces now are gangs and what are the most prevalent social pressures that guide youth into Gangs and yeah, let's go again the additive nature. Yeah, first of all They may be a different ethnic group and racially distance from the major population That's how you get segregation of people in different neighborhoods. That's one Force and that's an important one and then within their families. They may be struggling economically Not able to totally support their children and all the different Needs that they have that's another force and then within the family If the economic pressures and the discrimination take their toll you might not have a very Intact family. It may not be organized according to the middle-class families that have a decent living That are more or less accepted in society. So you wind up with kids that it The parents lack parents skills or are absent in terms of parenting so that's another fact and then the other factor again when schools are not able to handle These students that had not been raised with all the resources they need and the guidance they lack from parents and other adults they We get to associate and hanging around with other equally sort of uneducated and sort of ignored students and by hanging around with them they get soulless and support But they also learned more about habits and then eventually the school is strained Families are unable to really guide their children those two forces along with the neighborhood and the racism and segregation experience and you wind up with kids Interacting with law enforcement in very negative way One that a lot of force would feels after sort of show them early who's in charge and this is the way you behave And you guys are behaving inappropriately, but again all those different factors and all those different pressures all those different gaps as voids create the need for an identity and since they grow up in the streets more regularly than you do at school and With law enforcement then they develop a street identity and personality person their street oriented and that's it and from there Who do they deal with who are their peers other? Similarly Disaffected children, you know, they're young teenagers, maybe older teenagers and sometimes you have a group of them a kind of a Young adult Peer group they're not the same age as 12 13 14 year olds that are just getting it to the street life But they've been around 19 20 years old They've been around a while a lot more hardened and then they sort of become the street counselors to these youths oh Man so the variety of pressures from inside their family all the way to once they are actually there They have the the the it's almost a benefit of having a click of people of Almost love I'd say that's the word they use they Love and they take care of their homeboys and they watch their back and sometimes the only person These kids on the streets count on are similar the street socialized children That's how they form groups and then the groups could become more lethal and become gangs take for example in Central America For the longest time most of the 20th century. You always had street children in Hondo this in Nicaragua and Guatemala They were poor they hung around together But they didn't form gangs as we know them here in Los Angeles or the United States But once we started deporting street gang members to Central America This is after the King Riots of 1992 Immigration authorities and police had this bright idea that they're gonna solve the gang problem here It's a hot potato So they rounded up all the youngsters who were in for gangs. They didn't have their papers They were in citizens. They deported them to those countries and they hung around thousands of yeah Yeah, hundreds for sure. Yeah, perhaps even thousands and they Went to their home country that they had never known because they came here as infants and young children They've been America America's more than they've been what the mail my lens So they they go back to this country what the most Central America countries MS-13 started like that They sent them back there and they socialized the kids that are street children But not gang into what you should he should be organized into into the minus Savatrucha 13 or 18th Street or some of the other gangs that are the these Deported children are from here in Los Angeles So that's a good way of teaching gang culture to kids that are street and poor Oriented but not gangs as we know and that's how that's how we had MS-13 grow to be such a powerful and instrumental street group in the Western Hemisphere Not just Los Angeles or Pico Union area That's one example when you you when you use the policy Misguided and not really thoughtful not obviously not based on social science and they sent them there Thinking that's going to solve the problem here. The hot potato has been set someplace else. Yeah Wow, and then what about the the solutions to the hot potato that you've been understanding you you went and you looked at Gaining junk in junctions, right? Yeah, teach us about that. Well the gang in junction along with a step back Street terrorism enforcement policy These two laws were put into place in the late 1980s when gang problems were at the highest level and gang injunction in particular was aimed at a neighborhood that a very violent and Problematic gang there was a nuisance to the rest of the neighborhood and the community as the neighborhood was being gentrified Well, that came later. Okay, these neighborhoods then were ice where identified as gang problem neighborhoods so the law enforcement police and District attorney had this law the gang injunction that they came and named Different gang members and they said they couldn't hang around with each other They couldn't dress a certain way a lot of different infringements on the civil rights This is a way of combating gangs But what happened is that they didn't just identify the violent most problematic gangs they identified areas that were being gentrified and They first of the example and the police patrol those areas They would patrol them and then they'd had a gang injunction would maybe make it easier to keep watch over these guys Because they had their name and they told them what who they could hang around with how they could dress and where they could be I mean Jesus and the plus if they the step back was a law that if they committed an infraction They were thrown in jail for a long period of time and given a heavier penalty for those that a lot of gang injunction in the case that I was an expert witness was in Orange Vodio Cyprus in Orange County right next to Chapman University Chapman was growing as a university They needed to land and right next door was an old neighborhood that had once been the migrant workers of the 1920s In fact their neighborhoods right across street from the packing plants. They're still there, you know wooden Buildings from the 1920s and so Chapman needed that land for their expansion They got a whole a lot of force for they got a hold of the district. We need that land So urban renewal get rid of ex-kids or in this case the gang in injunction Let's get rid of this gang and the gang wasn't even that lethal Didn't even had that many infractions But we went to court and we proved to the judge that the district attorney Named too many gang members that weren't gang members just kids They were in the neighborhood and they were cousins or friends of one of the gang members So they had it such a large net and they picked it they Identified so many kids so in court we proved to the judge that this was not correct Not a way to go about cleaning up a gang problem in the neighborhood and the judge agreed with us Missouri agreed with whatever case we we presented and they got rid of it in that case was taken to a higher authority court and and They agreed with the earlier judge. There was not it was unconstitutional to do that now Unfortunately, I was also part of a case because I was a big net right right Well, it's just you pick up anybody any kid in the neighborhood. It's automatically Labeled a gang member when in fact, you know They and the plus the fact that they identified it as a very violent gang in neighborhood And it was a nuisance to the other residents there when in fact there were all kinds of neighborhoods They were worse in violence and more of a nuisance and those were ignored because they were not part of gentrification so that's a way of cleaning up and using a law Poorly and that now they can use the law. They're eliminating the use of that Policy as a solution to gangs fortunately since the night late 1990s There's been an effort to do something other than punishment because there's three things you could do with gangs You could prevent them from joining you could Suppress them that's what you have law enforcement or you can intervene So prevention intervention is a lot cheaper and a lot better a lot earlier. So school's pression the suppression That's when you have gang injunctions. Yeah, that's not that that has not worked In fact the motive for using it is not even what it was intended for it was something else So the ACLU that I worked closely with were successful of getting these things cut back and on the verge of being eliminated And it seems as though the The education the prevention step in the very youth is the best Well, of course. Yeah, the younger the better head start and every year head start has difficulty getting fully funded Head start that would be that would be one prevention Effort that would save us a lot of money. Yes a lot of headaches get these kids young begin to teach them How to be a good student you ought to read my wife's a board member in there was school I went to your school district and their main objective is get to kids to read by third grade And if you get them to do that that opens all kinds of visas for them. It helps direct them in a more conventional pro-social way and The schools make efforts to have programs to integrate students that come from economically different backgrounds and also been treated the racist barriers and and other kinds of poor Methods of integrating them into society and then also out of out of your other books that you've authored What have been some of the big Highlights for you that you would want to share. Well, this is a my first book is my favorite. I'm working on it right now with a Barrio gangs. No, I'm talking about earlier. What's earlier than that for millions of Chicanos. Oh, it's a history of 500 years Going back to the pre-columbian Aztec time to the present Chicano moving time and the 500 years of contact conflict and change and developments where you have The submergence of a population and the emergence of a superior elite population We're trying to make it a Mixed reality game like a virtual reality game and I'm very excited about that because there's a lot of action a lot of wars a lot of upheavals and a lot of Disagreements over race and culture and religion that could be the source of the conflict and that's Kids learning about having a good time shooting them up But why and how and where? Some of the information that's more academically based It would be of use for kids to get that information And who was being submerged and who was being we're talking about the indians of the western hemisphere. Yeah. Yeah And the africans that were brought in against their wishes and better judgment as slaves so the Population that was here and the population was brought in and what happened to these two populations and I we have Story line were developed. We have about ten tribes including some of the maroon black Groups that started like the Seminoles the Seminoles were a black Indian group that merged together and there are other spots in Veracruz Eastern Mexico and in a couple called Western Mexico where there was a large african population And merged with the population the Indian population So we're talking about Nades of the Western Hemisphere Nades of the Western Hemisphere for 500 years. I have a new year's Submergence submergence under the Spanish. Yeah, and then the Anglo-american. Yes Spanish in an angle actually It's be fair about it Spanish the Mexicans Anglo and now Well, we get every day news Headlights about the caravan and about immigration. Yeah, and about How we have a lot of criminals and rapists rapists here from the immigrant population It's helped us build up the industries that helped in the wars I have totally uncles that were in World War one I had a brother in World War two Join the day after Pearl Harbor. We're very proud of our achievements and being good Americans Yeah, but you we just want to be treated fairly and Equitably, yes So for minors to Chicanos is my Favorite book right now, you know, I read the gang books that are very good and useful and I'm very proud of those books, too And mostly growing up in downtown Los Angeles on the streets myself I learned what that life is all about never really got into serious trouble What's through sports? I was able to go to college and then from there I started getting turned on to different academic subjects So Diego to two quick Points here that I want to ask you about well first one is what have been some of your favorite moments from teaching kids Well, the favorite moment is when kids you could see the The light bulb turn on yeah for the ideas that I might be sharing giving them insight like for instance one of the Facts that it's surprising to so many students including a lot of Chicano Mexican-American students There was a war between the United States in Mexico in 1846 and 48. It's called the Mexican-American War United States took over one-third of Mexican territory all those states that have funny names California Arizona New Mexico Arizona, you thought Nevada our Indian tribes or Spanish Names for the state based on historical circumstances So they those on hale San Diego Everything San Jose where San Jose right now. Yeah all those names Tell us that people were here before yeah, and people that were decent folks families were important and There was efforts to Keep peace and quiet and all that stuff But with a war The United States wrote a treaty with Mexico the treaty of Guadalupe Dalgo and then the treaty they Were going to preserve the ownership of land the natives had land that they owned Okay, they were going to preserve the culture and their language and that was ignored just complete bold pulled over so that's When I taught lecture about the Mexican War Since look at me like like dump fondled. Yeah, there's a war in me when we didn't immigrate here Well the line that see people use it like we didn't cross the border the border crossed us Damn I Have family that was born in New Mexico before the war. Yeah, my grandfather was born in 1842 in New Mexico Okay, so anyway, and I'm real proud of being an American and in fact Mexicans I collaborated with the United States and in helping to take it over the Southwest You study some of the events that I love all had all kinds of Mexicans. Yeah, and it was just Anglos, so it's not that we were like trying to Cautal to the dominant racial group those Seeping over the nation or the territory. It's like this. There's certain political and social principles the United States abides by and we like those principles. We just want them applied equally in Regularity over a period of time. Yes, exactly I can't believe that that you just said that the border didn't you get didn't cross the board the border was put Yeah, yeah, it was pushed there and cross it didn't play the plus right after the war Mexican labor was needed millions of Mexicans came to work the farms the cattle ranches the mines They built up the Southwest. They were contributors major contributors. Yes, and now there's a lot. They still are And then the war cut we're ready to go we're first in line It just it's just the we just need a little respect I've had many light bulbs go off while we've been talking and so I am happy that you picked that as something that you love with teaching Now last thought what are your thoughts about the current state of humanity and where we're heading? I'm very disappointed no older. I get more disappointed For instance the other day we celebrated at the 100-year anniversary The world war one that was a major conflict. Yes, I mean hundreds and hundreds of thousands of people died I'm thinking of the battle of our own my two uncles were the argon in that force area and our president didn't even go to the ceremonies other people aren't even are completely oblivious to that major conflict that should be taught in schools the importance of that kind of ethnic Cleansing, you know so many people killed this slurred from those lessons Yes, and then we repeat the war or war war two and then we have all these smaller versions of the Wars and I'm disappointed that Well, the United Nations gave was given a little bit of power at the beginning and then More and more people just ignored that and don't understand that the world is too small now. It's got to be made Peaceful, you got to get rid of this these religious and economic and other conflicts in order to have more peace and tranquility and raise our children in a Easy kind of way where they can enjoy life and get into art get into intellectual pursuits Yes scientific pursuits and that is what You know, we have we're in Afghanistan. We're in Iraq. We're in Rattling swords with North Korea, you know, it just that goes on and on and on and unfortunately the population seems to enjoy The fact that we are the big cheeses and the kick and the man, you know, I mean that's that's that conducive to making a peaceful quiet and just internally development or When we get externally involved help other people develop, you know Along the same lines that we want to expand on peace quality for our children in our future We need to learn from the past mistakes that have been made throughout civilization Have a greater harmony a greater stewardship and pass that to children and have us thrive as a planet, right Diego I'm I've said I've had so many light bulbs go off and I really appreciate you sitting down with us and I thank you For reminding me. Thank you. Thank you for joining. I'm glad we met last night. Me too Diego me too and Thank you everyone for tuning in. We greatly appreciate it. Give us your thoughts in the comments below We'd love to hear from you Also, check out Diego's links below and check out triple A's links as well Please and go and build the future go and manifest your destiny into the world everyone. Thanks for tuning in much love