 So, good afternoon everyone, welcome to Entrepreneur India's Resilient Series. During the lockdown, we all ate home cooked food, mostly because of the fear of the virus transmission of course. We experimented, watched online videos, followed chefs to make all those food items we crave for at home. Not all succeeded, including me. So, it is not a surprise that once it was clarified that the virus cannot transmit through food, people started ordering food and eating out. Now, with the unlock phases going on, you know, QSR joints and other food-serving startups are slowly witnessing sales. But is everything back to normal, or what is the new normal? That is what we will find out today. I'm sort of Kumar Editor Special Projects, Entrepreneur India, the moderator for the session. To update our Facebook viewers, the discussion will last for 45 minutes and will be followed by taking up questions from you, post your questions through the comment section and do mention if you want a specific panelist to answer it. Let me now introduce our panelists for the day. We have with us today Ms. Nidhi Singh, co-founder of Samosa Singh, Mr. Dheeraj Gupta, founder and MD of Jumbo King, Ms. Padmeja Ruparel, co-founder of Indian Angel Network, Mr. Vishal Jindal, co-founder and co-CEO of Skygate Hospitality Private Limited, which runs Biryani by Kilo, and Mr. Shah Mr. Rahman, co-founder and CFOO of Waumomo. Welcome everyone. So, let me start with a very basic question. So, have the sales regained the pre-COVID levels or are people still awaiting a vaccine to be fully sure about, you know, that everything is safe? So, Ms. Tauri, if I can start with you. So, thank you so much, good afternoon everyone, it's March 12th, so we can say good afternoon. So if you say that have the numbers gone back, so A is numbers, B is life, life is definitely not going back to normal to the pre-COVID level and hence I don't think the numbers would go back especially for the food industry. As we talk, if we need to give an example of Waumomo, we are about 75% of the pre-COVID number with less than about 65% score of A. So, there was a lot of stores which we operated prior to COVID and those locations just don't make sense anymore because A, the footfall for those locations have drastically reduced, there are places where people used to earlier flock, say in terms of food courts or in malls or in busy high state locations, people would go in and flock, they're in totality but now nobody is going there, even if they are going, they're not stopping to eat. So what has been definitely taken and hit and food and hospitality, all of us know has been the worst hit sectors. So what has definitely taken and hit is socializing which was the earlier norm for eating out. Now that has taken and hit, what has picked up instead is delivery. So delivery is the new normal, pre-order take away is the new normal but the importance or rather the share of the five is the delivery has increased right now, does not convince it to the fall in the dining experience which we earlier used to have. So net net, the industry is operating between 50 to 70%, the smaller formats, the delivery focused formats are ranging between 60 to 70, the diners is a little lower, the fine-dine restaurants are operating below 50 but that's how the new normal is. Okay, Dheeraj, what's your experience? Yes, so, hi everyone. So we, our schools are largely located around the railway station in Mumbai city and with the trains being shut down, I think business came to a complete standstill and of course even colleges were shut, schools were shut. So it was difficult, I think all the way to, I think for the first six months we were not doing much other than a little bit of spiggy so much was happening but over the last three months I think with Diwali and all of these things happening, we're shopping presumed, business has become, actually we are at about 60% of takeover levels and I think we give ourselves a five star for being able to do this because the trains are still not functioning. I think just having a very positive outlook towards what is going on makes a lot of difference. So yes, with trains opening in Mumbai city, things should get back to normal. So we are not in the socializing part of the, it's more of a need-based thing. It's like when people are traveling and they need a quick snack on the go, so that is where jambuking comes as a good option for people when it is very well priced and it does not spoil the dinner that a person is going to have after a couple of hours when he reaches home. So yes, we are taking a body blow as far as COVID is concerned and I think all of us are in the same boat so you have to just, I say, grin it as in smile and just take it when it is bad but yes, we are preparing, we've done a lot of groundwork in terms of training, in terms of understanding how the systems can be made stronger so that when this opens up, we can hit it now on running tips. Right, obviously everyone, I think that this is a good time for introspection for everyone. So maybe I'll come to you, if you can tell me how the sales are and also I would want to know from you that once the lockdown started, I mean, obviously we were not prepared for it or some people may have an idea because other countries were imposing it but we were not sure about lockdown here. How did you react? What did you do? Right, so for us, I mean, Samosa is saying, first of all, good afternoon to everyone, it's really nice to be here in the panel, just answering the question here. It was, I mean, for us, Samosa Singh is also a manufacturing company. So rather than having our cloud kitchens and online businesses through deliveries, we also are a primarily a cloud, you know, a manufacturing company. So we are the one of the largest manufacturers of Samosas and other Indian snacks in the south part of the country. So definitely, you know, when lockdown happened, no one assumed it would be of this gravity. And just before lockdown, just one month prior to it, we invested very heavily into opening a nice flagship store at the Bangalore International Airport. That was one of our heaviest investment till date. You know, in four years of business, that was one of the heaviest investment and we really had high hopes. But just as the lockdown happened, the first cut of lockdown was in the multi-flexes and Samosa Singh had a significant presence in PVRs and I know we actually used to supply to them across Bangalore and Hyderabad. So certainly that business part was completely shut, completely shut. The airport again was the second major hit and in the airport, no one even comes to the airport in the quad area and other things. Once the airport is not functional. So we saw major part of our business, you know, completely shut due to lockdown, which was all our B2B supplies, which would happen to all these institutional players, which would be multiplexes and as well as the airlines. So certainly the B2B part was business was completely shut. We never assumed it would go this long, but that was one major hit that we faced as a company. On the other hand, we were thankfully, we were always primarily trying to expand our presence in the cloud kitchen domain. And we already had about 15 kitchens just around the time of covid. The cloud kitchen part of the business was where we saw the demand really increasing. In fact, that particular part of the business never saw any major hunch. The challenge that we had to overcome though, during the lockdown was to make sure that the cloud kitchens were operational. Initial days, April, May, we actually had to get so many permissions, so many special licenses to be able to operate those kitchens. But certainly, you know, the demand was there. It was major a challenge to make sure we fulfill the demands by keeping those kitchens open. So during lockdown, 50% of our business was completely shut. But within the six months of lockdown, we have actually made 90% of our business through these cloud kitchens. And that 10% which was a B2B. Now we're even contemplating that as a business, do we really need to go there? Because like you said, it's something that lockdown or covid is the new normal and it's going to take significant time for market to roll back. So I think there has been very huge learning as a production. We had to make our team really lean. We had to leverage all the Kpex that we had and kind of try to make something more out of it, get more results in the production so that the company could run on a more self-sustaining mode. I'll share what we did, you know, maybe throughout a further discussion. But those were the things that let us keep going. And the cloud kitchen business, which Biraj also just referred to and even Shah mentioned that it is something which has really picked up the online deliveries. And just during the lockdown, we have actually expanded in now 35 kitchens. So where we were in 10, we're now in 35. So we have actually grown that part of the business well during covid. Okay, fair enough. So before I go to Padmaja, I'll ask Vishal to give us his view. You know, you sell something which is the favorite food of India, which is Biryani. So tell us how has your what you did and how have has your sales gone back to where it was earlier? So I'll say Biryani by Kilo, I think we were positioned well enough as a delivery company and as an online company in a Biryani category. So I think, of course, we had and I'll talk about the challenges during covid, but we are back to, if I can say, 110 percent of our covid levels. So because our dynamic used to be 10 percent and 90 percent was delivery. So the dynamic, which was 10 percent is now five percent, but the delivery, which was 90 percent is now 105 percent. So overall, we are back to 110 percent and we signed four new outlets last month and two outlets. So so in a way, I think we always have been a cloud kitchen. We always have been in the category five years. We are always also, I think Biryani by Kilo because of positioning and the proof is that we make fresh Biryani at every order in the hardy sealed, so in the same hardy in which we do the cooking we deliver. So the customer knows this, so they know it is very safe. The sealed hardy is opened by the customer and Biryani as a category. And of course, we were always positioned as a company in terms of delivery as cloud kitchens. We have 40 cloud kitchens across India in more than 20 cities now and delivery. So I think all that is in the tech and the whole organization DNA. So sometimes, you know, the dining companies, of course, they can do delivery, but I think the DNA of a company to be a delivery company takes a lot more than the tech and everything. So touch wood, I think because of being a fresh Biryani, which is safe and delivery technology and positioning like that. So we are quite back and quite happy about it. But it was a very difficult period after Mejoo, like Nidhi was saying, you know, we all had to get special licenses just to get teams going. If they morale up, all the management has to work double the hours. And, you know, normal hours are also nine, 10 hours. So double the hours is just your working. And and I think we also did a lot of communication with the customers. We are the first ones, if I can say, to come up with safety videos as soon as the lockdown happened, implement all those safety measures like putting all employees, which everyone is putting now. I think we started doing very, very early and all sanitization of kitchens, bags, all those safety communication, etc. I think touch wood we are back around 110 percent and we're signing a lot of new updates. So I think we're in a good position. Yeah, good to hear from you that you passed up. You know, you'll teach the regain the peak. So I'll come to you. You heard four entrepreneurs in operating in different segments. You know, some sales back to 60 percent, some to 110 percent. Someone saying that, you know, we have gone to some other business and we find that do we need to go back to be to be. So here you are an investor. You've already invested in food business. So what do you make of this thing? It would like people who were in cloud kitchen models, say earlier than were not into QSR mode. Maybe is this a blessing in disguise or how do you think? How do you see the how do you see the space? You know, thank you sort of first of all and congratulations to entrepreneur India to host this panel and get these the kind of farm founders we have who really built, I think, awesome companies and lip-packing products. But I think, you know, from an investor perspective, in some ways, the pandemic has been a blessing. OK, let me tell you why. When we invest in IEL primarily is an investor in seed and early stage companies, right? And at a seed and early stage, it is our main bet. Seventy percent of our diligence or bet is on the entrepreneurs. Right. And the pandemic has actually done our job for us because it has stress tested for us. The entrepreneurs, how have they gone through standing, come out standing through the COVID tunnel and how did they do it? Right. So I think that is one. That's how we view the pandemic and. How has each entrepreneur withstood it? So for instance, you know, Vamo did do essential somebody else went into cloud kitchens. Somebody else who was completely, for instance, you know, there are tons of dining restaurants which were completely closed and they went into delivering food. There are five star hotels which have created delivery packs of very high quality, premium catered food without actually catering it. Right. So they've created these menu. They've created these recipes packed, packed in proportions, given instructions how to cook it and people are doing it at home. So I think these are the genetics which have come to fall to say how you handle a tough situation. This is a situation as Dheeraj said, it's a it's a it's really something which is coming to the gut and you can't do anything but just handle it. Right. So how you handle it is something which is very important. Number two, I think is yes, when we look at it from an industry perspective, 75 to 80 percent of food business have come back to pre-COVID stage from a GMV perspective. The point which I think we worry about is what happens on the bottom line perspective because that is a very different ball game. So I think the focus therefore starts happening on costs, on procurement and supply chains, packaging costs may have gone up. So I think the EBITDA piece is where we start thinking about. The third piece, I think from a customer driven perspective, and I think a lot of it has been already shared by Vishal, Dheeraj, Mifthor and Nidhi. But I think the one shift that if I look at it from a macro view is specially for ordering foods, you know, delivered foods, I think there is a shift in customer, especially when you look at the young corporate crowd, which is actually ordering the maximum. It's the target audience which orders maximum online delivery. I think they've gone home. They're working from Jalandhar and Jaipur and other places. I think there is a clear shift and that shift is something that the businesses which are only focused on perhaps metropolitan cities need to think about. I'm not again talking about any of the four companies here. I'm giving a general statement that if you're focused only on the metropolitan or the big cities, I think there is a market out there which has suddenly been created because of this shift of professionals or shift of people working from home, a shift of people, quote unquote, going home. That's, I think, a huge opportunity. And the fourth piece which we are seeing is there is a focus on the kind of food that is coming, is the kind of food that is getting ordered. A lot of it is essentials of basic fundamental food. And I would include the pizzas and the biryanis there, apart from just ordering dal chawal, khichdi, right? I think there is a big, big piece sitting right there which is waiting because a lot of people who've gone home are not just wanting to order, let's say a pasta or something high premium, but they are also wanting to order this. So I think there is a customer behavior change. There is a consumer demand change. There is clearly those single-backed girls or boys living in the city, that crowd is sort of reduced. How do you actually leverage that crowd is something that we are looking at. And the second big piece, be it, is honestly for us, is the procurement side, you know, with the logistical nightmares that we all went through, the entire country went through with the lockdown and hats off to these guys who sort of managed to keep it going because all their procurement, all their raw materials needed to be fresh, right? For biryani by kilo, Vishal must have hit his head against the wall to just get fresh meat or chicken, right? Myth thought would have similar issue and I'm sure vegetables and stuff, jumbocking and samosa thing would have the same issue. I think now the stability into the procurement line, becoming innovative on your supply chains. How do you do your quality testing? Where do you do your quality testing? Because you don't want to now be spending money, getting it from the Monday or warehouse or kitchen and then testing for quality. Do you need to create mobile quality testing scenario? So I think there is a learning as Biraj mentioned as to how we are doing this whole supply chain. Ultimately the biggest fear for us or for that matter, any food oriented business, be it raw material or cooked, I think is hygienic and fresh, right? If there is something that goes wrong there for any business or brand it sort of drops, it sort of impacts that, right? So I think to me the question then ultimately happens is what are the processes that have been set in? What are the standards that have been set in? What are the logistic risks or what are the risks that have been now re-looked at and risk mitigated? So to me those are some of the things that we've started to look at and we are looking at it deeply. But ultimately I would still say all four of these people who are sitting on the panel, I think they've survived because who they are. The quality of, quality of focus, and just the passion and resilience to fight this out is why they're still here. So my cue does to them, but that's what we look for. Right, and yes, Vishal, you wanted to say something. I think, you know, I just echo what Padmaji said. I think there's no way someone can get out of this and that too, you know, almost like a winner without really hitting their heads on the walls almost every day. This was a difficult, very difficult period. I think keep your team motivated, resilient and keep doing that communication with the person. And I think it will continue for some time. So I think it is a test of the management intervals also during these times. And there will be big winners also when this comes out. Okay, okay. I'll come to you, you know, Padmaji just mentioned about, you know, people, you know, more people now working from home or going back to their cities and, you know, operating from there. Does this really worry you or do you think that you need to, you know, expand beyond where you already, where you are? Or do you think that it's just a matter of time people? Anyway, we'll be moving around the city in Bombay, Bombay, you know, especially Bombay, I'll talk about. So what do you think of the situation with this work from home? Because people will have more time to, you know, quickly cook something for them at home. You know, they can keep some ingredients ready. So is that something which will take away something from, you know, QSRs or, you know, take away counters? So, yeah, so that's a damn good question which I get asked a lot. And see, we have been tracking sales data with Zomato Swiggy, right? Because we sell with them. And not only us, but what other brands are doing and overall as a platform, what is happening? And the data that we have, you know, it is from, you know, reliable resources is that over there also business is down. It's, you know, at about 80, 85%. It is not that they have doubled up, right? Ideally what should have happened is all people, if everybody is starting to order from home, then all the Cloud Kitchen, Zomato's and the Swiggy is their business should have doubled up, right? If the shift was happening. Now, we may say that, no, that may not have happened because people are worried about ordering from outside. So, you know, a lot of them kind of did not step in at all. They didn't order from anywhere. So, yes, it is true. There will be a slight shift as in the Cloud Kitchen business. Of course, anyway, it's the new age business. It will grow. I know, I sometimes say that Domino's is the world's largest, world's oldest Cloud Kitchen, right? It is not a new concept. They would put up a store behind the back road and deliver pizzas from there with a number. Today that happens through apps and, you know, through the fulfillment partner. So, you don't need to, through a Swiggy is a matter of these kinds of people. So, you don't, you have to put up your own fleet. So, I very strongly feel we should stay put on what our business model is. Like, you know, so everything Biryani by Kildoh, Samosa, Sengbao, Momo's, Jammu King. I think they've all understood it is one part really well, which I think most of the restaurant owners, my father is a restaurant owner from the previous generation they were making this, they were trying to do everything under one roof. So, typically at a restaurant over there, all the things that we are serving today, plus another 30 things would have been available on the menu in the restaurant. So, we have focused on a particular category and we are trying to fulfill the customer's need for, so it's like, say Biryani by Kildoh. The idea is if I feel like having a Biryani say once a week or once a month depending on what my consumption pattern is, I want to become the number one option in terms of the customer ordering. We remain focused to that. I think the vaccine is going to come out whenever it does, you know, see about a month away. So, my call is, stay put, keep on focusing, super focusing. And yes, we are, so, you know, keep on investing in supply chain like our entire supply chain is integrated, all our patties, they come from Fillore, which is next to Chandigarh, right? Because we're buying from Vista, all our sources come from Kremika. So, I think we have spent the last five years completely integrating our supply chain, right? And, you know, get out, use their better technology so that we are not too dependent on market variations which keep on happening, like COVID was a market variation which lasted for nine months. No one could have prepared for something like this, but our wastage, et cetera, has been at the minimum because the stocks were, I know, managed very well. So, my take is, yes, we will get into other cities because the opportunity now opens up, right? It is much larger since the supply chain has come in place. It's got nothing to do with COVID. And I think what will happen is a lot of the brands, people are going to trust brands, right? So, a lot of the business will move from the unorganized sector to the organized sector. So, that is how, you know, I think brands will grow and people trust brands. It's like, you know, if I like Pawbhaji, I'm a Bombay guy, right? So, for Pawbhaji, I have my favorite Pawbhaji guy who I go to and I have that product over there once a month, right? So, that is what the whole thing is about. And I would not say that we should lose faith on what we are doing because of some, see like, when demonetization had happened, right? Everybody thought that now finished, everybody's going to start using digital currencies, right? But if you look at RBI data, there's as much currency in circulation today as was in 2015, right? The cash transactions, as a currency for buying exchange of goods continues, but yes, the digital payments has increased. As the market keeps growing, I think all players will keep getting their pie. One pie may grow faster than the other one, but we should remain focused on the pie that we are addressing and yes, keep on learning. So, it's like, we have finally launched our loyalty program, right? Because, so, don't share customer data, which is a big problem, you know? So, we can't be market with them. We don't know who our customer is. We have launched our own loyalty program where there is this product called Thrive, right? Where customers will be able to order directly with us. They'll get it at prices probably 10% lower than on Zomato Swiggy. And we'll fulfill that order through partners like Danzo, Shadopox, these kind of people. So, the economy, so the environment keeps changing instead of thinking Zomato Swiggy is an enemy or that they will take it as a way we have kind of, you figure out a way to win from that. So, similarly, COVID is actually a good, I shouldn't say it's a good thing that happened, but it is a lot of learnings for us. And so, we are not changing anything. We are staying put, but yes, we are going to change gears and we are probably go from second gear to fourth gear once the lockdown opens. I hope I've answered your questions all right. Fair enough, fair enough. I mean, everyone has a different idea. With that, I'll go to Mr. Nidhi So, you heard Dheeraj, he says that, stay put of what you were doing, but I believe both of you changed what you were focusing on to kind of keep at pace with the change that was happening, that was rapid. So, I would want to know from you, is that a temporary change that was done to stay alive? Because obviously, your focus, your USP was not that before you changed to that. So, is that going to be there with you for a long time or is it just for the timing and you will revert to what you were doing earlier? Yeah, so, change is a very good word and we would like to call it innovation. So, till February, life was going as usual. We had about 345 stores that were largely take-away delivery and a decent percentage was dining. And it was business as usual. We had raised money last year and we had a massive expansion plan. We had planned to open about 200 stores this financial year as we speak. Then came in and drove from in the month of March and from April, our sales went down to almost 10%. From 340 stores, we were operating less than about 35 stores and with 10% revenue with the costs, the level of cost that we had reached across 16 cities, it was a massive, massive infra which had to be moved. So what we thought, we actually thought that there is something that needs to be done and that thing needs to be done a bit different way. So what we realized is we kind of spoke to these guys, Vicky and Zamato and we tried to figure out what are people ordering. So first thing that they came back to us is people are not ordering food. They are cooking the food at home but they are ordering groceries. So this was something which was, I mean, I remember in the month of May, last week of April, my dad was telling me and I was telling my dad that we are gonna have your potatoes and sugar and onion to be delivered from our store. And he's like, have you guys lost it? Like, no, this is what the need of the artist and this is what people were buying in bulk. So we launched a separate category called Vamamo Essentials. Now what was Essentials? It was that point in time, your big basket and your expenses, et cetera, had a very long break in time and the problem which we tried to answer was that or solve was that we would give you the essentials, we would give you your groceries within 45 minutes time, the time which it would take for a momo or a biryani or a samosa or a roll to be delivered or wrap to be delivered. And you would get essentials, your everything that you need for your daily how those to be delivered in 45 minutes time. So we went live at the month of May. There was a point in time for about couple of weeks where our revenues from Essentials was more than the revenue that we were doing from our operating by operating our stores through momo and we have another sister brand, Vamamo. So Vamamo and Vamamo and Vamamo combined was less than Essentials in the month of May. So from that perspective, it was a change that we had to do, but was it a permanent change? Answer was no, because one thing started up one thing started opening from the month of June, June 8th to be specific. We saw the central business going down, but the change which was required was still not there. I mean, people had not come back. So what we kind of figured and realized this delivery is increasing. We had to actually increase the delivery bandwidth for the stores for the rest of India, 345 stores were not enough. So what we did was we did a type with Caffe Cofidine, wherein Caffe Cofidine had very large stores and they were not having dining or they were not having to take away this thing. No one was going to a cafe to have coffee. So they invited us, we did a collaboration and we planted a Vamamo chaos or we planted Vamamo stores inside Caffe Cofidine locations. Now what would these do? This would actually give us a delivery perimeter of in a place where a Vamamo store is not there. Number one, number two, we were actually opening up to the delivery radius without actually opening a large store by ash or opening a dark kitchen. So we had the input done by CCD, we had the other facilities done by CCD, we just had to plant a counter there and deliver from there. So this again was a new normal for the month of June I know this, but did this actually get the revenue back in total answer was no. So we still realized that there is still a gap which we have to innovate, which we have to distinguish. We try to focus, we completely innovated on our delivery packaging. We completely innovated on the way which the food was being served. We shifted the entire focus, the entire company's focus into health hygiene and the way in which the products were delivered as a result of which our delivery numbers shot up by almost 100%. Prior to COVID, our delivery was 120, 25%. In the month of June, July and August, we were the delivery revenue was between 60 to 70%. And that was because a specific focus on the packaging, specific focus on operating procedures, specific focus on how you market your listing and very important Michelle was mentioning it that very, very important was how do you communicate to your customers? What are the precautions that you're in to ensure the food is not contaminated? So that was something that we really worked upon. We worked upon the communication. We did that piece then we did offers and what was really interesting was just the offers or the discounts for not driving people to buy your product because everyone was giving offers but people were not buying from everyone. People were buying from those brands or those places where they were comfortable to buy from where they had their first hand. So all the mom and pop stores which were their single standalone stores, they did take a very bad hit but the branded stores, the stores, the brands, the chains which were focused on health hygiene. They were focused on communication. They were focused on the standard operating procedures to ensure the entire supply chain and the delivery mechanism is full proof. They kind of gained from that. In the month of August, what we realized was and this was a pet project that was there in our minds for a while but we started working upon this is we realized that the entire crowd once they have opened up are going to supermarkets and they are taking regulatory and fossil products. They are coming back home. They are coming back home and they are heating it up and selling it off. So what we've now done is within 15 to 20 days we are launching our frozen momos which will be sold from FMCG outlets like your Spencer's, your Big Pazards, your retail and this would be delivered from Amazon and from Groffers and Big Pazkets as well. So these are the things that we had to do in the last four to five months or rather six to nine months which actually has taught us to do the business in a different way and focusing the entire focus was A to get the top line up and be what Padmujer rightly said is to focus on EBITDA because as we talk a lot of food brands, food companies they are talking about we have gone back to 70% revenue we have the pre-COVID times we've gone back to 80, we've gone back to 100 we've gone back to 50 but what is really important is how much cash are you guys really buying? So pre-COVID we were very, we were very I would say that it was a great achievement for us that we used to call ourselves that we've been profitable, we've been good start and we've been EBITDA positive for the almost for the last 12 years now but March 2020 was the first time that we saw a loss in the investor MIS the burn was the first time that we added that monthly cash burn was something that got pinched in but our entire focus from the month of April was to save on the cost to save on this thing to boost revenues but to ensure that your burn is limited and as we talk we should be able to break even next month and hit steady state profitability from the month of January but the entire focus has been to ensure the costs are controlled to ensure the sales get pushed and to ensure what more can be done to ensure both of these things scale forward. Gaurav, I would like to come here just to make one comment and you know MIFTOR when we invested in your company when we were doing the strategic discussions one of the lines of discussions or the points of discussions was why can't we have frozen momos okay which people can buy and take home and cook or fry right and it's so interesting and that time I think the team Sardar had very very correctly said so and we agreed with him that the consumers really want hot momos made fresh and you know this is like walk in and pick it up pick up food in some ways right but this is the consumer behavior change that has happened that a company has had has sort of recognized that change that there is more eating happening at home rather than on streets and how do you capture that customer base how do you capture that consumer base and that's where the frozen momo piece is coming I'm sorry I just could not help because this was something we discussed three four years ago and say this is a great scale up model right and we were also telling them you can freeze it like this here are the places where you can buy a freezer we went through quite a few details so I mean but that's the I think more more jocularly but I think that's the consumer behavior change that is the the customer is not eating on the road he's eating at home and that's the customer base that needs to be captured absolutely so we remember the discussions and we've been actually thinking about frozen momos for almost four to five years now but that pick that customers coming in so to give you an example if I go into a Spencer if I go into a DMart I would not pick up frozen momos I never used to pick up frozen momos in last year but now if we have we definitely pick up something on the ready to eat or something on this thing just from a snacking perspective today my dad tells me that you why don't you why don't you get something frozen and have it here and because it could be more hygienic you know we go this thing rather than I think more than that I think people are more comfortable with such food because of the virus virus thing also because they think that if there is something packaged I can bring it home sanitize it and then open it a little later and eat it I think that's a behavioral change that has come in so Nidhi I'll come to you you know the same question that I had for Mr. is that the change that you there so you said that you would talk about things that you've changed during this period so are those changes are you going to stick with those changes or those changes were just to you know as you said that you know your B2B side like the PVRs and your supply to work close so what were these changes to just overcome those hurdles so actually like everyone just mentioned their experiences right some COVID made each one of us realize and learn a lot of things one of the key learnings at least we as a company had where we were in the expansion mode right we just raised a series A and we were very much into expansion and our expansions was primarily multi-city and in the cloud kitchen domain what we realized was that until COVID hit us we always assumed that our production facility is that for manufacturing samosas we used to manufacture samosas we used to manufacture thousands and thousands of samosas on a daily basis 60 to 70 thousand samosas per day everything was completely automated quality assured and everything was going on really fine other ancillary things which are a part of our menu which included some form of chutneys or sauces or you know even we serve the pao and abhaji or the samosa and the pao and that pao and other things we would procure from outside but what we realized during COVID was that supply chain one was a major issue number two we never got the quality that we earlier used to get there were old paos redated or you know these are the common things people did in order to avoid wastage and we realized that that is not only impacting our the customer is our trust because like Shah also just mentioned during COVID what you really need to bang on was to get the trust of the customers we were so open I mean following the safety standards hygiene and other things are one part we were also so open that if any customer did not have a good experience we would even invite them to come and visit our factory and have a look as to how the samosas are made so we really wanted to buy on that trust factor and what we realized until now we didn't realize was that why I mean why is our manufacturing facility just sticking to samosas you know why just samosa we have a manufacturing capability and that is what separates us from other you know similar cloud kitchen players we don't assemble the product we actually manufacture it so why just stick to samosa and that's when during COVID when the lockdown was announced our factory was operational we kept doing the hardcore R&D and innovation and today in our factory we manufacture every single thing that goes in our menu be it Pao you know we manufacture our own Pao we manufacture our own kultas we manufacture our own sweets you know we just launched Gulab Jamun because people wanted in samosa saying they needed some kind of sweets as a part of it every single thing is made in house and that's where you know we realize that how to capitalize on your existing infrastructure and not just use it for just the samosas but even other things that could happen that not only helped us in bringing down the cost in cost optimization it also helped us you know with the same lean team that we had in the production we were able to produce much more SKUs we were more self-reliant and that also helped us gain the positive EBITDA you know at a higher level at the bottom line certainly another thing we realized was that when you're expanding you're just focusing on expansion in the top line when COVID hit one thing we really had to focus was also on the bottom line you know like Padamja just mentioned there is a shift in the people they're actually moving out and that is true we were in Bangalore in Hyderabad and we have actually seen that the Bangalore market people have moved out to their natives I have a counter at the airport and the number of walk-ins out of Bangalore is much higher than people coming into the city and that is why in Bangalore we have certainly seen that certain areas you know which had the maximum migrant population within the part of the city which had maximum PG's maximum colleges the market there is very very trend you know we don't have too many people there but as opposed to Bangalore Hyderabad which has more percentage of native people or maybe people have migrated to it there we have seen a very good rise in the consumption and that is why leveraging this you know we started expanding more in Hyderabad during this time as equivalent to Bangalore and today my Hyderabad stores as many as in Bangalore so we have made these changes and these changes are here to stick with us for long I mean now we don't even see our manufacturing company as a Samosa manufacturing we see our manufacturing facility as being able to support us to manufacture everything that we sell or do so these are the things and because of that we have really been very you know focused on effective bottom line we have been achieving it at per cloud kitchen level we have seen that earlier some of our cloud kitchens you know would not even reach a bit of positive and now they're consistently a bit of positives since last 9 to 10 months and just on the cloud kitchen business we've been just achieving through that cloud kitchen business we've been able to reach up to 80% of our revenue where we were pre-COVID assuming the B2B so now you know what COVID has also made us realize is to have the business self-functional not just dependent on third parties you know never someone thought that multiplexes would not be operating for a year you know having a business relying on a third party or a business is a little risky model and that is why that's the reason we raise the money to actually have our own cloud kitchens and presence across and that's what we will be focusing on going forward great I think one of the reasons also you've mentioned about the areas where PZ the other colleges are there it's because colleges are closed right now correct that is true the entire student population is in their hometown serve you know wherever and sort of this is something which is happening in multiple areas with multiple companies I mean it's not just for us and that's why when I was speaking to one of the key leadership positions at one of these aggregator platforms we came up with a proposal why don't we increase the delivery radius you know from four to six kilometers to actually 10 kilometers and those target hit areas and in some areas in Bangalore where we are primarily operating this is actually getting functional because they are so less people there and there's so many restaurants everyone is facing the same beat why not increase the delivery radius so small small things we are looking into and at the same time you know some kitchens where we are where the walk-ins are not as many where the orders are not as many because of the number of people are less we are operating on a lean team versus the other locations so just trying to manage the demand but overall we have seen that thankfully even during covid and even now post covid the delivery demand tailwinds is really high we have never seen any dip here be it Diwali or other overall it's been really going well but certainly there has been a slight 10 to 15 percent variation because of the migrants moving out of the city Rishal I'll come to you so you know we heard Dheeraj we also heard Nidhi that you know there have been changes in menus Nidhi said that they have started Gulag Jamun now tell me something like used your USP is Biryani now you if you start another food you know an item add another item or two to your but you know my favorite Gulag Jamun places XYZ somewhere or my favorite you know anything it could be anything that you add as an add-on to your menu does it really help in you know adding to your demand for that food because I I know you for Biryani now you start or you know start giving me Gulag Jamun with it with a you know at a small incremental price maybe okay I might order it a day or two but I really the the my Gulag Jamun could be something else so do you really think you you will use doing that will increase your demand or do you think it's just that you are ensuring that people are getting everything they want along with Biryani to eat Asala and a sweet everything together so that you know you give a complete you know putting up a complete meal for that consumer to sort of I think you asked a very very important question I think this is the most important question to everyone on the panel we have some differing views and I think closer to what Dheeraj said closer to his views that you know changes have to be strategic in nature and very long term right this is an age of specialization see there is a reason why you don't see Domino's frozen pizza on the shelf there's a reason why KFC's frozen chicken is not sold on a modern bazaar or a expensive there's a reason for that see it's not that the management worldwide and Domino's has not thought about it at all because the management DNA is and the whole systems are geared differently if or let's say a Prasuma which is a Momo's company in the frozen category they've done a great job with FMCG and the modern trade there are like millions of general trade in this company in this country and the saints people who are just doing that and how the customer views of frozen pizza or a Momo or a Biryani other than and even in glossary let's say something like a Gloffers or a big basket is burning millions of dollars to get the back end and the tech it cannot be done in a few months or even in a year you know it's impossible so until unless a change is very strategic in nature and like he has said even after demonetization you know after five years the cash has come back so today Biryani by kilo we do as a strategy 10% of a business to Dine in and 90% delivery so I'm not going to shut off my 10% Dine in because it's a COVID right I am taking a 10 20 year review on Biryani by kilo being a billion dollar company or and those one Dine in in each city for the 10% Dine in it's important for my brand for my brand connect just because COVID I'm not going to shut them off it's a part of my 10 year strategy right until something is a part of your 10 year strategy it has no meaning until a very tactical reason for your bottom line just to survive right so lot of even the cloud kitchen companies to answer a question directly you know they will say okay we want to you know instead other than Biryani let's look up let's do pizza but see there's a very great company which is doing pizza you know like Domino's or but how can you be better can I have 1300 outlets or have a supply chain of Domino's or Biryani also is Biryani is a great delivery category we thought about it five years back and also there is no incumbent leader neither in India or worldwide so today we are almost a hundred company and break you right not making any losses in 20 cities because we focused on it you know we focused on creating there's a reason why KFC doesn't do pizza pizza doesn't do chicken or Starbucks doesn't do it's not as easy as it sounds the supply chains the training you know everything it's a member job you know with the best of efforts a company is you know Chipotle does Mexico you know that's what they're able to do so until we believe something is a 10 year what you can do is a view you can't really change but technical things can be done just to make profits or survive but you can't just change gears because competence and abilities for the competing I would say people think it's a cloud kitchen and see cloud kitchen is just an enabler see customer finally built is a food it's a taste it's a quality is a price it is the brand right cloud kitchen is just enabling me to do it at a lower capex and do have a higher speed of execution but a customer doesn't love my brand or the product cloud kitchen is useless right so it doesn't so people think just because they were cloud four categories in it but how do you create capabilities supply chains trainings wow thing wow in that product in that pizza or in that samosa or everything how will you do it you can't do it on a opportunistic way it has to be done over years with capability sort of everything yeah you wanted to say something no I was just saying that what Vishal is saying is absolutely true but here there's one more angle to it which is the cloud kitchen domain is a little tricky and a different because it's 100% driven by the customers impulse when it's about you know the breakfast when it's about the lunch or the dinner the meals right people actually do decide it you know they're more focused they know that they have to have Biryani and they have certain you know their favorite players and they would go by that that they are certain segments where we're dealing with which is India snacking you know the snack segment that is highly driven by impulse what people would want to have during snacks time between 3 to 7 p.m. window they want something which is you know a light on the pocket they also want something which is like a tangy and a chapata kind of a snack they don't want it a heavy meal and it's 100% driven by the impulse now what happened during COVID was we realized that there are certain things which actually picked up the demand there was a certain search for example just around April time we always in fact that is 80% of our revenue comes from Samosa and the other things are just ancillary because it needed to be there so that it caters to the multiple demands from a particular family now during COVID what we realize people started ordering too much of you know chai chai along with the Samosa the reason being there were so many bachelors they may not have the provision to make tea in-house and that's when we realized we just had one variety of chai which was the Masala chai menu and we never really saw such a huge surge in Masala chai along with Samosa because Samosa chai is like a combo and it started selling really quick then the next thing we saw was during COVID people started avoiding curd based things you know the curd because they had this the feeling that it might you know they might fall ill or whatever and they started asking for something hot you know hot charts Samosa chart but without the curd or just similar things or maybe hot momos or something which is really hot in nature and that's how we started seeing the trend one major trend which we saw during the COVID was the average order value for any cart actually increased significantly I think it could be because there are multiple people in the family and I'm sure everyone in the panel would have observed the same and there are certain demands that started coming in because when you're ordering through any aggregator you actually do not have the provision yet you know appetizing momos from wow Momo to order a proper dinner from Biryani by Kilo and maybe have a nice sweet or a dessert and then kind of close the entire cart and go about it so you actually have to order from a one particular restaurant and people would want that apart from that speciality you have a few things here and there so here I mean what I'm trying to emphasize here is that very well resonating with what we shall said that your focus always has to be on the core product I mean people for samosas and not bullup Germans they would come to our Momo for Momo then that's there in each of our names as well but at the same time there are certain things we have to have in our menu items huh definitely certainly they would and there are certain items that you have to have in your menu that actually compliments your whole opening so Nithi we also have at Biryani by Kilo we are very proud of a kebab school Mars Finni correct so but that's a 10-year view we have taken from day one correct so whatever and you know COVID can create you know certain different views but those views have to be for another 10 years not for another six months absolutely yes absolutely because you are finding it opportunistic to do for the next six months of one year very true and I have seen certain in the channels so I think someone who can be good in TV doesn't mean they can be good in movies or someone who's good in movies cannot be good just because they know acting or direction you know it doesn't mean much so what you are creating for a frozen product is very different the mindset the packaging the companies although you know wow mom was a great company and I love Saga and see they will they might be able to because this might be a different thing but generally it's easier said than done the whole man the whole management bandwidth how it is focused is very important in the the the resources you have every team money time is trying to this thing is it's very important is you need to understand what your core business is so someone who's selling bread and butter the core business is bread and butter he can bring in a chai to sell along with the bread and butter but 75% is going to be bread and butter so even even with us if we if we try to do what essentials or if we try to do into a FMCG it's a new business answer is now are we are we are we are we dividing are we moving the focus from the traditional QSF that we've been selling from the last 12 years answer is now so then then someone throws a challenge to you so like COVID it's a it's a challenge you should look at it as an opportunity to see yes then why not take it up provided things along I don't know I agree completely I just want to let Dheeraj wants to say something, please Dheeraj go ahead. I think these companies are younger. We can't hear you Dheeraj. I think he's frozen. Yeah he's frozen. So anyway, you know. I'd like to make a point while Dheeraj is back. So if ever you look at raising money or anything like that, please give me a call. I'm investing now. Okay, I hope you never need to raise money Vishal, but you think to me. Yes, yes, yes. So what I want to say is that, you know. Okay, it's like we are learning from the international QSRs. When Subway puts up 78,000 stores worldwide, right? That is what gives me goosebumps. Okay. They have their manufacturing entirely outsourced. They don't do a single thing themselves. Okay, they have their entire front end with franchisees. They don't have a single store of their own. And so you look at me. Losing Dheeraj. Royce is breaking up now. Thank you. Anyhow Padmaja you wanted to say something till the time Dheeraj. Yeah I think Padmaja really enjoyed this because I learnt the maximum. Yeah. For me, this was like ready made Gyan coming into me. So thank you. You have so much Gyan, who can give you that? Dheeraj, I think. Dheeraj, where are you now? So you can finish. So I think he has Indian. So you know, there was talk about quality control when you outsourced it. Today when we were making our patty ourselves. Okay, we were making it at 15 rupees a kilo. The conversion cost in our kitchen. When we moved to Vista, our manufacturing cost more than increased by more than two and a half times. Now please understand that is a hundred crore infrastructure. The call was let us time with the best in class manufacturers and get the economies of scale in by giving them large volumes. And that is the way we can get to 5,000 or 10,000 stores in the country. If you keep on trying to control our kitchen's thinking. So, you know, you'll not get the right quality if you go to the wrong suppliers. The right suppliers are going to be more expensive. So I think all that. So we as companies need to understand that we are in the business of brand creation. That is where the real IP lies, right? And whatever can be outsourced should be outsourced, but find great partners who understand quality is important. Why does McDonald's outsource everything? They don't make everything on their own, right? They have the money the way with all to do everything themselves. But, you know, the brand partnerships can be such today for us. We trust Vistar to do a damn good job with the patty making them. You know, I would have trusted my own manager at our factory. And one last point, you know, was about this frozen Momo. So we had got this offer where someone said, you know, that the Dumbo King patty is extremely tasty and that's what people come for. And we should package it and put them out at all the QSR at all the modern details. And I got down excited. I like, wow, it's a separate business, a separate line and we can do very well. But when we ran with the math, what we realized is that it will unfocus us so much from our core business that we are better off building Dumbo King into a billion dollar business. This is where our focus should lie. And the QSR space, the model that we are operating can get us over there. So I think one of the most important things for an entrepreneur, you see, because we have investors on board, of course, you know, Hello. Yes, it's quite good. So what happens is getting the buying from your investors to understand that because the investors always come in with the best intention when they invest. And in times of COVID, you know, solutions start coming up from all directions because you're not being able to give them a solution bases your past thinking, convincing them and stay put is a very important skill that our entrepreneur needs to have where you take the investor along. So, you know, I have had a lot of pressure. If you said, yeah, because I will be tonight, we should do this. You know, what is happening? This I'm talking of, you know, that we are now in our 20th year. And I remember those pressures used to be really tough. It actually was no remain focused. So, you know, everything that Michelle said that is focused by allies and Jack out and that was what I would keep saying in every meeting that Starbucks does one thing, Subway does one thing, you know, in the pizza category. Pizza Hut does the diamond. Domino's does the takeaway. Pizza Hut tried doing the takeaway. They do a damn bad job. Domino's try to do the, you know, the seating and I said, I feel like I'm in a hospital when I go to Domino's store to eat over there. I will not go there with my family, but I will call for it at home. So once we understand it's the user need which we need to get a pulse off and become the best at that. I promise you all the brands over here have the potential to become billion dollar businesses and go outside also. So that was my. Sure, thank you. That was that was really fair enough and you know, we have run out of time, but I'll come to Padmeja before we wrap it up. So two things. I think first you wanted to say something. And the second my question, the sign of question would be so, you know, can we, can we, can do you think that, you know, I'm going to see a walk in store where, you know, Mifthor has put his momos and Nidhi has put her Samosa and Vishal has put his, you know, Biryani and he just put what about together. So, you know, rather than I, you know, especially I specialize in Biryani and I try to get, you know, make momos rather I would start getting those things together. So I think there is going to be collaborations as such, which might happen. I don't, I'm not sure if that is, if that is, that can happen. But just asking. I kind of just go first at this. Okay. I think what we do is we should all put up one, one store next to each other and make it into a food court. We don't need to put up in the same. Yeah. We all take up. Let me answer this differently. I think first of all, I completely agree that food itself is a brand play. Rather than yes, the brand has to be defended with a good high quality product, hygienic, fresh, et cetera, et cetera. Right. But it is a brand play. If the brand is not there, there is, it's, it's not going to work. Whether it's a niche brand or a scaled up brand, you know, you go to a very niche, high quality boutique restaurant. It is the brand while you're walking there. It is the brand which is demanding the premium prices. It is a brand that is sort of getting the customer into the door. That's, so I completely agree. It's a brand number two. I think what I'm gathering and I, I personally believe that has to be a model of scale. If you want to grow without a model of scale, it doesn't work. What you do in-house, what you do, what you outsource, how you manage that outsource your SOPs, your processes, your logistics, et cetera, et cetera. I think that is very important. The third piece that I think is very important and, and I'll share this, that may be a difference of opinion, but I do see this is there are times when you take a strategic decision. Okay. And let me expand that a bit. There are reasons why you internally take a strategic decision without any external trigger. For instance, when Mac decided to come in India and decided to make some changes on its menu, for example, right? And yes, that strategic decision has to continue for a decade or more, like Vishal said, but that's a conscious strategic decision is one way of looking at it. The other way of looking at a strategic decision, strategic decision that the company may need to take is due to an external factor. For instance, and I'm going to stay away from the four brands that are sitting on this panel. I know of a brand which is into coffee. Okay. Coffee fresh coffee is something which is a takeaway. It's made there and you pick it up and it's, it's, it's pick up and go. And certain brands are driven by socializing by the fundamentals of socializing and certain brand or food items are driven by the fundamentals of social. They work towards social distancing. If I just look at Biryani by Kilo delivering, they started by delivering food at home or and parties are catered. Right. So I think for them the social distancing that happened because of COVID and lockdown and pandemic and blah, blah, blah. They were aligned to that, but there are coffee brands out there, which is you get out of the airport, you pick up that coffee, that completely got killed. So the focus still has to be on survival. And then you have to start thinking which they did and I won't give the name of the brand with due respect to the brand is that they decided to say if my core product or my core products, this differentiating factor is my coffee powder. Is there a way that I can continue my business, continue it during COVID and beyond COVID by packaging that coffee powder into sachets and selling it online. So that is a strategic decision that they were pushed into taking because of COVID, but they must and we had a long discussion with them. They had a clear cut reason to do it on an ongoing basis and it became a permanent line of revenue in the PNL. Yes, of course. Did they have to make changes in bringing the right equipment, the right people, the right packaging? Yes, but those are resources that you need when you build the revenue line of a company and this is a line of business. It needs to sit as a PNL under the main PNL. There must be people and everything needs to work like any other business. So that's the second big piece that I think strategic decisions have to be taken. The last thing I think to your point, Sara, I honestly feel that and perhaps I'm a wrong age group. I will put my reps and warranties there, but honestly when we order food or we buy food irrespective of whether you dine in or you order in, I think we at least go buy the brands. We would want to go to Biryani by kilo purely because of the Biryani. The add-ons are more to say, is this a compliment to that food like a salan or a firni or something? Right. Do I want to have the convenience of being saying that I have a family of 10 and somebody wants a Biryani, somebody wants a jumbo king. By the way, I do want a jumbo king, which I haven't eaten for the many, many years and that's Dheeraj on your head. Do my children want of our momo and does someone want a samosa? Yes. I do want the convenience of being able to order from either a platform or go to an outlet and order it, but I must also as an investor, as a consumer, be ready that when you are collaborating in a food mall, online or offline, you have to agree that you should be able to go to the specialist to buy it. I personally think that there is a huge value and I'm now wearing my investor hat. There's a huge value in a specialized brand. If wow momo is doing momos, then I am going to be focused on wow momo doing momos. If I am wanting wow china, then I will go to wow china and I will have the Chinese there, if that be the case. But I will not probably go to wow momo and have china. And that is the demand of this business which is branding and the product behind the plan. That's how I look at it. And ultimately, I think whatever model we do, it has to be scalable from the entrepreneur perspective, from the investor perspective and the customer perspective. You cannot have, if you really want to scale unless you want to say, listen, I'm going to be one single outlet dine in premium food. I'm eliminating those businesses. There are many such businesses, right? And they're good businesses. But in our discussion point, if I want to have a biryani of biryani by Kulu, it doesn't work for me if they are only going to serve in Gurgaon and not get it in Noida. I mean, I'm never going to be, I'm never going to be a customer for it. So I think accessibility is the other piece that needs to come through and how that is accessed is also very important. So I completely agree with Nidhi, with, sorry, Vishal to say cloud kitchens are enablers. Absolutely. It's a resource. It's a tool. It's an enabler. It's like having a kitchen in-house or out-house. It's one more way of cooking or preparing. The final is a product for the brand which works. But what is the product needs to be defined Vishal here? And why I'm saying is I'm taking it beyond the four of you. Is that if the coffee is the product, then the coffee powder is the product or is my process of making coffee the product? That's the distinction. That's a company or a entrepreneur. I can't decide that. But if it is the coffee powder, then there has to be different ways of mining, monetizing that product. If it is the process, then there is a very different way. Like you rightly said on this example, Reskefe sells coffee powder and Starbucks sells coffee. Those are two different brands. Not one. Starbucks cannot sell coffee powder. Reskefe cannot sell coffee. Absolutely. Those are different things, people. Just because it sounds coffee, it is very different. And I think situations like COVID, push people and all of us are humans. Remember that. I think situations like what we went through of lockdown and pandemic and social distancing pushed each one of us, not only you guys, let me say, each one of us to say, to get down to the fundamentals and basics. We had to rethink what is my product? Who is critical to me? How am I doing this today? Can I do it differently? Why in our business, the first question that came up, we have a two floor office. Do we need it? Till then it was taken for granted. How will it work without the office? How will it work without the conference room? We have invested more than that. Without the conference room. I think those fundamentals get questioned and I think it's a damn good thing to happen. Honestly, because we keep running with day in and day out. We don't get a chance. We don't spend the time to question. One of the best things that COVID did was it gave us a lot of thinking time. So going back to the blackboard was something which we were actually not getting time to do. And we had days and days at length at peace to actually kind of of course after firefighting on the daily activity and during the payrolls and the rentals and the vendors get paid. Apart from that, the free time that we actually got, we actually were able to rethink as to where are we heading. Yeah, actually I got presentations and food presentations. I got business plans where guys were asking me for 25 crores. I promise you this has happened. And we were discussing why do you need 25 crores? COVID hit. One month later they said the same proposal. Same thing, 15 crores. Runway instead of 20 months it went up to 36 months. And it's damn good because for the entrepreneur, why should he die? Why should he give away more than he needs to? So I think it's a good thing to rethink. And I honestly feel the most expensive way of raising money or funding your companies is equity money. Please don't raise money from investors if you can raise it, if you can fund your companies through revenues or any other means. Revenues is the best way to do it. So we have really run out of time but I think Dina you want to make a point so quickly if you can. Thanks, thank you for this. So just answering one of the points I mentioned in her last conversation was I think to simplify or oversimplify this it is all about category playing. So Vamomo has created a new category called Momos and their sole objective should be I am going to be in the top three players in this category because challenger brands will come in. So Indian food market because it is so largely unorganized so Samosa Singh I think they have run a brilliant job by finding a category which is very large and unbranded and created a brand out of that. So the focus you know like what Vishal kept saying the next 10 year focus should be that was this entire Samosa category the pie which is there I want to have a 51% market share nationally and how large is that opportunity and stay very very focused on that. So you know similarly Biryani by the kilo. So once we understand that which category am I operating it in and so either I create a new category or I go into an existing category so like Jammu Kim we now have in burger because nationally we feel that burgers is a larger market there are these you know a lot of these players who have made very very significant investments and created the category we would love to be in the top three in the burger category rather than spend a lot of money in creating vada power as a category. So you know once these decisions are made then within the category how are you positioning yourself premium or mass that once you get this part right you'll see all the other elements will fall in place whether I manufacture our eye out source I put up company on stores I franchise you know all of those things will fall in place but the key decision is what is my category and I stick to it. So like in momos if I'm giving the restaurant experience I have to give the best restaurant experience when it comes to momos while when it comes to the you know the modern retail frozen momos is going to be a very different category. My free advice kind of Mr. would be try it out do a dip stick but probably don't call it something else you know you would have straddled the whole thing and taking all of it and but the customer should not come to me because he I think CCD you know made this error where they were this very nice thousand square feet store and then they put up those shorter kiosks at railway station if you remember CCD express and I was like what the hell here I am expecting CCD to be this very nice experience here I am putting it in a cup a very unfeeling looking vendor is giving it to me for 20 bucks so CCD the brand took a hit over there they should have actually called it something else if they felt it is a lie in our proportion So we will pick your brain up on this we have a strategy and we are not calling it specifically momo frozen there is a separate packaging which goes into it but we will discuss with you it will be a good lengthy offline discussion make sure the advice continues to be free so I will have to I will have to stop it here because we have really overshot the time by quite some time but I know that this this discussion can go on for another quite you know to us maybe because of the interest that we all have in this category which is food I mean it is one thing that you know everyone works you know they say to live to eat obviously to live to eat but when you are living why don't you eat so we all need to live to eat what are you talking about so thank you everyone and you know for this very healthy discussion and I would really wish to see all of you again together maybe you know three months four months down the line and you know reflect back talk today and let's see what you know where we have these at that point in time so thank you so much and wish you a good day thank you just give each if you just give our numbers to each other so we have all we are poking to Padmajaji and I need to speak with so we have all connected on the mail the mail addresses are there in the connecting brief so in case you want otherwise we can do that as well so Javi pick it up from there yeah thank you so much thank you thank you yeah bye