 The Archbishop of Ibadon Province of the African Church, most reverend Augustine Odufua, urged President Mohammed Bukhari to stop the influx of foreign herdsmen, who he said were mostly carrying out killings, kidnappings, rape, and armed robbery in the country. He also advised the federal government to address Nigeria's worsening economic crisis to elevate the sufferings of the masses. Well, joining us to discuss this is the chairman of the Christian Association of Nigeria, Kaduna State Chapter, Reverend Joseph Hayab. Thank you very much, Reverend Hayab, for joining us. Thank you very much for having me this evening. Great. Let's start with the killings. I mean, I've had you on this show several times when we talk about either it's the kidnappings or it's the herders. But hey, we're here again talking about the same thing this time. We're talking about those who are coming from outside. I just finished talking about the fact that the presidency has been completely silent about this issue. And Nigerians have been asking the president to speak on it. The president spoke about bandits this evening. But the killings, the kidnappings, the rape, and all that, I hear from reports that this is causing some form of suicide, mental illness. And of course, people are dealing with the deaths of their loved ones or the fact that their farmlands have been sacked. It's also causing some form of depression. And this is why the Reverend is asking Mr. President to stop the influx of these people. You stay in Kaduna State and you've experienced all of the abductions. You've heard this news. You've listened to your governor and his reactions to the whole problems that the state is facing. Why do you stand on these statements by the man of God? Yeah, the job is saying that the president shall stop the influx of foreigners. But I want Nigerians to know that the foreigners are already in our country. They are in our towns. They are in our forests. They are virtually everywhere. So stopping them is as if you don't know they are already here. I've been involved in getting people out of the Kipnav dance. And I can tell you that the testimony they said is that the Kipnav fans are quite foreigners. But they just have very few Nigerian flannies among them. So these foreigners are already here. So what we want the federal government to do is to go after them and arrest them and let's know who are their sponsors. But talking about stopping their influx as if they are not here. They are already in here. We are battling with them every day week in, week out. But doesn't, I mean, I want to see some sense in what the Archbishop is saying. If we were to have our borders properly patrolled, if we had not opened our doors to these people. I mean, we probably would have to deal with less and less people because we're paying millions and millions of Naira to get people from out of the Kipnav as Den. This is obviously a lucrative business and it will encourage more and more people to come into the country. So why shouldn't the presidency be more interested in border control? Well, the presidency is not interested because one of the rumor in town is they imported this bandit for political reason in 2015. So to chase them out is not easy. Have you really observed that today is not the president that is addressing us? Is Gaba Shehwoda has taken the place of Mr. President? So we don't hear the voice of our president. We hear the voice of Gaba Shehwoda. So Gaba Shehwoda will respond to everything about bandits instead of Mr. President responding to Nigerians. Then the second part of it is the Echoers Treaty. We all know that the Echoers Treaty permits headsmen to move around Echoers country. So most of these bandits hide as headsmen and move into our country. They have cost us harbor, but anytime you talk the simple excuse is that no, they are headsmen. Remember sometimes ago, even the embassies around will not want you to call them bandits. They will say it's headsmen, farmers, clashes. And I've lived around for a long time. I know that headsmen don't just kill anybody. But this group of people are killing and maiming people and you are calling them headsmen. Where are their animals? Which animals are they taking care of? They've killed innocent people and you are still calling them headsmen to make the entire crime look as if it is a fight between two neighbors. Let's talk now that you brought the issue of the Echoers in. I want to address that now. The Sahel region in Africa seems to be experiencing almost a similar thing that we're experiencing in Nigeria, especially in the north central and in the northeast. And it's not just about terrorists with the likes of Boko Haram. We're seeing more and more of these headers, farmers, clashes, metamorphos into another form of terrorism. If the Echoers treaty is becoming a problem to us, Mr. President sits on that Echoers. I mean, he just recently stepped down, but he used to sit on that Echoers, head Echoers. But then what are the Echoers countries doing to deal with the situation of the Sahel and then can as a Christian organization should be appealing not to just governments within but to the African community to deal with this situation? Has that even crossed your mind? Well, we have made that appeal and we have tried to government that they should take a look at the Echoers treaty because it's not to the advantage of Nigerians at all. The fact is that Nigerians are suffering. Nigerian citizens are being killed because of a treaty that cannot bring any good to us. But you see the interest around this treaty is bigger than what some of us are talking about. And so whenever you talked about it as if you are provoking some people who are in power because they know what they are gaining from this treaty. And so instead of them taking action, they remain silent because there is really nothing they will even want to do. But let me put it this way. The immediate past president of Chad, the late president so might by coming out to deal with the criminals, the bandits. And we thought that our president who is also a retired general who has beat his chest in the past and tell people that he is a general and he will lead from the front line. Sadly, he has not shown that. He's not even speaking, talk of even leading. So what we're having today is we're having a dumb president who do not speak. And all we hear is Gerber Sheho and Femi telling us what they think at Nigerians which you do. And sometimes they've even tell us that do we care about our lives or about our farms? So the use of hadas, parmas is always, it's just a simple way of playing down with a very serious crime that is going on in the country. I wanna push you, father. You just said that we have a dumb president but the president did speak today on the issue of bandits. He was addressing pressmen as they came to government house for the Eid festivities. He did say that the situation in 2015 compared to the situation now is different and that they've been able to train more soldiers, they've been able to get more tactical weapons. He's also said that the government is trying its best. Sorry, these are the languages we hear from the presidency. Every time we have a festival like Sala, like Christmas, like New Year, like Independence Day or Democracy Day telling us they have told us in the past that they have technically defeated Boko Haram but we know that the Han Boko Haram is doing now shows that nothing has happened. So why using the same rhetoric every day when people are looking for concrete action? You see, we must tell the president that it is not enough for him to just speak. It is important for us to see action. And when I say a dumb president, I'm talking about a president who will come live and speak to Nigerians, not just a written speech that he will speak and it is over and nothing happened. Well, again, the reason why, I mean, the people who have also of course asked why Mr. President is not able to speak to us and allow us to ask questions, but that's another kettle of fish for another day. But there have been many critics and pundits who have criticized the unending silence of Mr. President and said that he chooses when to speak or the president chooses when to speak on issues like this, they have even said that when governors like the governors in the Southwest took a stand on open grazing, the federal government was quick to react. And even recently where the Southern governors have come together to also say, look, we do not want to open grazing. We're asking for restructuring. They're saying that the reactions that come seem to, you know, present a case of double standard. Why would you think that the presidency, if it be a thing, would have double standards when it comes to dealing with this issue of mandatory or farmers herders crisis? Have you not been following what is happening in Nigeria? When the Eastern group react, the president and his men will descend on them very harshly. But when Bandit kills and destroy people in Northern Nigeria, they even accuse the people who are crying because Bandit have killed them. So when Nigerians accuse them of double standard, there are one million and one reason that you can lay your hands on. So we are simply saying that be the president of Nigeria, speak the same way when things happen in the South, the same way you speak when it happens in the East, speak the same way when things happen in the North, the same way you are going to speak when it happens in the West. Let Nigerians feel the impact of their president and know that he is a president that cares, not a president that speaks favorably for another group and speak harshly to another group. If our security agencies can go after the Eastern security network and kill them, where have they been that have not gone to the forest and fish out the bandits that have been killing people in Northern Nigeria? Well, let me try to give you an answer. Let me attempt to give you an answer. Mr. Lai Mohamed said yesterday that the government does know where these kidnappers and these bandits are, but they're just being careful because of the civilians that are involved. Oh, are civilians not also involved in the South and East of Nigeria? Why would they say that they are careful because civilians are involved? You see, this is the same language. I've been dealing with the SSS and security agencies whenever people are kidnapped. And this is the same language. They'll tell you, you know, we know where they are, but we cannot go after them because it will affect the victim. And the truth is that they do nothing. Let them quote me. Oh, look, I'm speaking in a public television. I have contacted them separately when people are kidnapped. This is the same story. Then recently, my governor even came out publicly and said that they had wanted to go after the kidnappers of the Forestry students and they would have lost some students. I wish they had really acted the way he claimed. Let's not just use propaganda every day to address serious security issues. Okay, finally, before I let you go, Reverend Hyab, what must be done to bring a lasting solution to this problem? Because I always ask every single day how many more people have to die for the presidency and our governors and everybody who's leading this country to see that what is happening is spreading like wildfire. And if we don't leave it in the bud, it might get out of hand. So what should we be talking about? What should we be doing to get these people to come to terms with reality? Because again, today I had the president say that he's surprised and shocked at what's happening in the North. Why should our president be surprised and shocked every day? Where he lives in this country and he'll know what is happening to us? Why should he react by saying he's shocked and surprised when his people are being killed? And I simply put that what our government need to do is action. Our government have been talking and talking too much. The fact of all is that they don't even listen to us when we talk anymore. So we are tired of also talking, but we want to see them act. And as long as they don't act, we will continue to remind them that they must act because that is what they saw on earth to do. All right, well, I want to say thank you to you, Reverend Joseph Hayab is the chairman of the Christian Association of Nigeria, Kaduna State Chapter. We appreciate your thoughts. You're welcome, God bless you. All right. Well, thank you all for staying with us. We'll take a short break now and when we return, I will give you my take. Here's my take. Now, what Nigerian needs is true leadership, a show of power, proof that our leader is alive and well to do his responsibility. Now, one who will send shivers through the spine of these bandits, these terrorists and kidnappers, letting it be known that it cannot be business as usual. Every blood that is spilled will be paid for. This is the kind of leader that we want. Instead of allowing a playing field for all sorts of criminals to come to play all under the name and the guise of unknown gunmen, that's what we call them today. We cannot keep having to call our leaders to come to our aid when it is their duty to do so. We can't keep begging our leaders to speak to us. Speak to us, Mr. President, address us, Mr. President, when it is his responsibility to keep us up to date and make us feel safe. But it seems like now it's upon us to keep calling and appealing to Mr. President to speak to us and put an end to Nigeria's troubles. We know it's not the job of one man, but Mr. President, the big buck stops at your table and we have high expectations from you, so do not let us down. I'm Marianne Cohn, thanking you for being part of the conversation. Have a good evening.