 Tonight I am here with Dr. Sean T. Smith. He's a clinical psychologist and an author of five books Sean, how you doing tonight? Good. Thanks for having me on Tony. Awesome. I'm glad you're here. I'm glad you're here Give everybody a background story on yourself a Background story. Well, I guess how did I become a psychologist? Is that yeah? Yeah, we'll start there. Okay. Well, I got interested in psychology when I was a kid And I probably told the story a million times of my my father owned a bar in this industrial area north of Denver called Commerce City when I was a kid so from about nine to sixteen pretty formative years That's where I spent my nights and weekends and I got to see a lot of adult things going on Around me that I didn't quite understand and saw a lot of romance. I saw a lot of things falling apart I saw a conflict. I saw people smooching in the corner I mean I got to really see things that most kids don't get to see and It got me interested in in how relationships work and how people work and so you know all these years later here I am Okay, cool. Now Your books, what was the first book that you wrote? First book I wrote was called surviving aggressive people and this was right I finished this up right before I went back to graduate school because I went to graduate school kind of late Because it took me a while to round up the money and so forth to get there But that was a book about de-escalation and that was also one of the the passions that I picked up from my father's bar Because my father was very skilled at calming people down and you wouldn't know what to look at because he's kind of a big brash Huge personality big alpha type, but he was very psychologically adept and he could he could really Diffuse situations very carefully and he got me interested in how to do that because I was a kid I got I was bullied a little bit like a lot of kids are and I watched my father handling things and I thought I want to get good at that because I'm not very good at it right now So I need to learn some skills and so I Learned from him and then I went on had some other experiences I put myself in environments where I could learn from people and practice de-escalation and That eventually turned into that book surviving aggressive people Okay, good now in the bar world, wouldn't they call a guy like that a cooler? I think they would call him a cooler Because he was down the situation. Yeah, I've not heard that Yeah, now let me ask you a question Would this I'm just curious, but would tactical guide to women would that be your most popular book? Yeah hands down and it's my baby. It's it's the one that I had the most passion about writing and Yeah, it's definitely the most popular one Okay, and now there's also a book For women and that is called the practical guide to men Why why the two different titles? because I put a lot of thought into the titles and the reason I chose the practical guide to men for women is I chose the word practical because To get in a little bit into my practice. I work a lot with couples and Fascinating work working with couples and so you do this for a decade, you know a decade or two I'm about 16 years into that probably and you notice patterns and you notice Relationships that work out poorly and relationships that work out well And so I started cataloging early on what are the kinds of mistakes that men and women make that put them into? God awful relationships and what are the good strategies that deal that the useful strategies that they used to get into good relationships? And so one of the things that I noticed and it's just more my opinion than anything I could quantify clinically is that women tend to make mistakes of the heart. They tend to make mistakes where they follow their heart into Situations where they think they can they can help they can repair and and that sort of thing and so they tend to be mistakes that that are sort of Or the antidote to those mistakes would be more of a practical solution like okay Let's set your heart aside for a little bit and let's talk about practicalities And it's a book that I want my daughter to read some days about how to approach men and relationships mistakes that I saw in the stick men making were more along Tactical lines like they weren't thinking ahead Into they weren't looking at the relationship dynamic and thinking what is this going to look like in 20 years and so they tended to be more tactical mistakes and so the the Antidote to those sorts of mistakes that are just sort of recklessness and also mistakes of the heart You know each side makes both kinds of mistakes, but the antidote to that will be more tactical advice Let's think about how this person is going to fit into your life how this relationship is going to fit into your life What is going to look like 10 years down the road and let's keep you out of family court because that's no place Than any guy wants to end up Yeah, I agree. I agree with that In your book, I'm gonna tell you my favorite chapter and I remember this chapter very well But it's avoid the most common blunders. It's chapter 8 Now to me that I guess it's chapter 8 to me. That was real interesting I really liked that chapter Resonated with me probably the most so tell me about the most common blunders that men make and there was one There was one there was one part in here about cohabitating and it had said Where is it here? Yeah, be clear about your non-negotiable Terms, which to me was something that I think a lot of men Aren't clear on that and they really don't have non-negotiable terms. So talk a little about that Non-negotiable terms know a lot of guys don't have non-negotiable terms and this is one of those tactical errors guys are not Typically trained to think about what the other person brings to the table They're typically trained to think about what we bring to the table and how we can serve and how we can be of use to the Other person and it's really important to go into These kind of arrangements thinking the other way to yeah, it's useful to think about what you bring But you also need to be thinking about what they bring and the first part of what you said was about I think You touched on a part where I talk about being very clear about what the status of the relationship is guys get really sloppy about this And the status of the relationship is she's a girlfriend or she's a friend. She's a girlfriend She's a fiance or an intended or some equivalent of that or she's a wife or a partner or some equivalent of that so there are some some discrete categories and Don't get sloppy about those if she's your girlfriend She doesn't need you can she doesn't need her tampons under your sink because that's not a girlfriend does That's what a wife does and the reason that's important You know those kind of boundaries those little boundaries like that like you don't get a puppy with somebody that isn't That you don't have a long-term plan that you both have signed on to you don't get a car lease You don't share an apartment. You don't do these things because once you develop these entanglements It's hard to back out and this comes out of the research of some people who happen to be here in Denver There's also some researchers in Australia but there are some researchers researchers here at the University of Denver like Scott Stanley Galena Rhodes and they look at Intentionality and relationships and how that affects outcomes down the road and people who just allow themselves to be drawn into relationships For example using Excuses like well it just makes sense to move in together. You'll hear that kind of thing a lot And in fact, that's one of the studies that came out of Australia. I think was people When they were asked why did you move in together their response was something along the lines? Oh, I just made sense It was convenient when you allow yourself to slide into relationships like that and develop these entanglements without intention number one it's really hard to back out and guys in particular have a hard time when the emotional pressure comes to They have a hard enough time as it is When they also then have to deal with her heartbreak because things aren't working out And they have to deal with a landlord or they have to figure out what to do with the dog Or they have to figure out what to do with this car that they've leased together It becomes easy for that guy to say well, I guess I'll just tough it out because that's sort of the male mindset That's what we're taught to do is you tough it out and you fix things So if you avoid those entanglements, then you avoid putting yourself in that situation where it's harder to escape The other thing that comes out of this research is that the outcomes aren't real great If you slide into a relationship like that intentionality is very important that if you're gonna build a life with this person that you make sure that your values are aligned and you too have similar goals and You have a plan that both of you are going to enact You're not just gonna slide into something because it's convenient And it's easier for her to drive to work from your apartment than it is from hers So let's just shack up that's a recipe for disaster And if you if you sorry, I'll stop here after this But where that kind of sliding can ultimately end up if you're not careful is family court And guys do not want to go to family court Nobody wants to go to family court aside from a few psychopaths and you know personality disorder people but Family court doesn't work out well for men typically as much as it does for women And so you start sliding in that direction. Yeah, don't be surprised if that's where you end up Now when you said convenience that triggered me because I think that Probably most men and women who cohabitate don't have an end goal. I think That's probably one of the issues and convenience convenience would include You know splitting the rent or who knows if you know men and women always split the rent Convenience would be like you said closer to work Convenience would be would also be I think men would look at it as it's an easier access to sex Which probably doesn't work out like they think so go ahead and expand on that a little if you would well No, yeah, sometimes it works out. Okay, I guess but no if you're moving in and making these sort of entanglements Just because it's a convenient source of sex Is not a great position in terms of negotiating power to be coming from and let's be honest Some of this is a business negotiation We need to part of the task here on both sides for men and women is to pull a little bit of the romance out of this and talk About the fact that there are real-life Consequences to the decisions that you make and part of it is a bit of a business negotiation So let's treat it as such would you are you for or against people cohabitating? Before they get married Well, I I don't care. I'm the most libertarian person in the world So I don't care what people do But what the research suggests is that if you're gonna live with somebody cohabitate it works out Typically it works out as well as anything else if it's part of a plan if you know that yeah We're gonna we're moving in together, but it's not for convenience It's because we're gonna build a life together then that's you know that tends to work out. Okay It's the relationships that are the cohabitating out of convenience. Those are the ones that typically don't work out as well Okay, when you're when you have your clients are do you is it? Do you typically have people that are just in a relationship or married couples which is which is more? It's more often married couples and part of that I think is because when you're married you're more invested in and when I say married that Doesn't necessarily mean there's a marriage license. It may it may just mean that people have decided. Hey, we're we're gonna stick it out So you know married or partnered or whatever you want to call it it tends to be that because When you make that sort of commitment to somebody then you're also committing to solving the problems as best you can that come up So yeah, I certainly see some boyfriend girlfriend type relationships or You know less than not less than married but different than married, but yeah, mostly the committed relationships Have you ever told anybody it's over like there's just you guys need to just go away. I mean It's just not gonna work. No, I would never say that to somebody Because who am I to say you know that it's not gonna work however, I will be very direct with people about the nature of the problem that they're solving and that This you're gonna for this to work You're gonna probably gonna have to do x y and z are you up for doing x y and z and if the answer is no Then they've just answered the question, but it's not up to me to say you too don't have any business together I have my opinions of course, but part of the job is I keep my opinions to myself Okay, so the reason I asked you that is because I've asked a few of the dating coaches that I've talked with recent in the recent past here and some have said definitely yeah, but I think what what I'm getting from you is In a more I don't want I don't like using the word professional But you're you're more clinical and you've spent a lot of time and a lot of schooling So I think your answer would be different Well, and I'm also dealing with people who are trying to solve problems and they've already built something together And I'm not gonna say I'm not gonna say to them boy. You two sure screwed up putting this together What what the hell are you thinking that's not my place to say that? Okay, but I do I work with a lot of guys I have a coaching arm in my practice and a lot of guys that come to me are trying to sort out If such-and-such person has a good fit for them And so we'll delve into their their background a little bit in this other person's background that the other person I'm not so concerned about whatever person they're worried about Whether or not they fit that's not really my concern if you're my client We're gonna talk about you and so we'll talk about the decisions that you've made in the past how you came to them Where what your patterns are what the patterns you grew up around and then is there something about this person that? might not work well with your patterns and if so you're gonna change your patterns or Maybe you move on because when you're trying to make that decision at the beginning of the relationship That's a that's a pretty good time to be thinking about this might not be right when you're 10 years in the marriage That's not the greatest time to be thinking this isn't right. Yeah. Yeah, no, I agree with you there I'm gonna ask you a direct question a friend of mine Recently was blindsided Now what happened was and this is recent when I say recent within the past Probably three months and he's expedited his his divorce rather quickly He found out his wife was cheating on him Okay, and he's a he's a wealthy guy, you know, he's in the medical profession. He's a wealthy guy and What do you say to a guy like that? I mean he's reached out to me We've sad had you know had a couple three four-hour discussions and But what do you say to a guy like that now that is divorced just lost? Million and a half dollars and we'll just say the most beautiful newest electric car I'm not gonna say the brand but I mean this is what he was hit with he I mean he expedited it quick because he didn't He just didn't want to drag it on but he was totally but blindsided and was cheated on What do you say to a guy like that that's coming out now back into the dating world? Well that first of all that really sucks to get blindsided and have to drop a million and a half Man that that's a raw deal. So without knowing any more about this person I would I would guess that one of the primary tasks is to not Not be I hate this word traumatized but but to not be traumatized by that and so let's operationalize that where I don't like There were because it's so overused in it. It sounds so squishy. So to not let that experience Blind you to the point where you're just going to recreate it again And this is a very common relationship pattern is that people will come out of a marriage and they don't do the work of the really crappy work of figuring out how they ended up in that marriage what they did to end up in that situation and that's a Really rotten question to have to look at after a situation like that where you got blindsided and you had to and you had to pony up That's that's ridiculous, but still as unfair as it is if you're gonna get back out there You've got to do a little bit of soul-searching about how it is that you ended up there Mm-hmm. Yeah, now we had a talk this past not this past Sunday, but it'd be a week ago Sunday in fact he it was my turn to pick up the tab and When the tab came he decided he was going to pick up the tab because he said I think you saved me another million dollars now he had gone on some dating sites and one of the sites he went on was like It was like a millionaire matchmaker website that one of his friends told him to go on and I told him to Get off that right now. You are no longer a doctor You are now a registered nurse and RN as far as any of what he's concerned when you meet someone You're an RN. That was my advice to him about that situation. What would your advice be to him? I would be really curious about why Why the millionaire dating website what what's going on there? Why that particular choice? He's clear I would imagine he's bringing something else to the table other than his money But he's saying all I bring to the table is my money. That's the message to the world Mm-hmm. That's it. That's exactly what what I talked to him about. It's like you can't be on there You know, I understand that women like status. I mean, these are one of the things But you know, I I even said don't even bring a woman to your house I mean his house is beautiful. Don't drive to the date in a Tesla You know, I mean I give him the best advice I could from everything that I've collected over the years But I do see I do see an awful struggle in his you know when when you're talking to somebody like that You can just see their struggle and I think he wants to get right back in the dating scene So, do you think that's a good idea? I I think insight would be really useful for him and Yeah, cuz I'm really curious about this decision to go on that particular website and what's going on in his in I have no idea. I just think it's an interesting question that motivation rather than taking any number of other approaches and so I You know, I hesitate to give specific advice because I don't know his specific situation but kind of sounds like might be a useful time to cool his jets and Maybe talk to somebody about trying to make sense of his relationship patterns so that he doesn't repeat them Mm-hmm. Yeah, no, I agree with that and I told him get off that immediately Now what he's also finding is is that and I said that probably a lot of your friends are married and Have you noticed now in the past few months that you are not getting Your the text messages have slowed down the calls have slowed down Because you're no longer that married guy and I think it will threaten His friends wives and he agreed with me. He did say that. Yeah, he's not getting the Friendship that he was having with these guys. So what do you do in a situation like that? Man, I don't know. I guess if I was him, I'd ask my buddy is what was going on. Everything's okay Yeah, yeah, who knows what's going on there and it could be exactly what you said could be something else I don't know. Yeah, so I you know, I try to I try to when I talk to him I let him talk, but I try to help him peel back some layers I think the best thing you can do when a guy is hurting even though he says he's not hurting is let him speak You know because I think a lot of friends will automatically give you bad advice to me bad advice Was going on a millionaire match site. I mean, you know, yeah I mean, you're you're all you're just saying I'm you know what here Here's another million dollars and let's see what we can do it again, you know, so but I just thought that was an interesting kind of an interesting Conversation we had and this was just recent that he told me but I told him to just get off that so yeah But there's this there's this phrase that I heard when I was in graduate school called flight into health and It refers to the to the idea if I'm getting it right I there might be a slightly different definition of this but they person will respond to Being put through the ringer like that by pretending that everything's just fine And so they'll jump back in as if nothing ever happened and everything's just cool And everything's just fine, but meanwhile they are so Blinded and distracted by what just happened to them that they're not making Decisions that are gonna work out well for themselves. So I'm not saying that's happening to your to your friend I have no idea what's going on with him But I do see a lot of men who come out of their divorce and they do this flight into health They just try to jump into the next relationship and part of it May be trying to demonstrate to themselves that they're not broken or that the world is okay The world's not broken the world's not unfair. I don't know what's going on in each individual case But it's a really dangerous and vulnerable time when you're coming out of divorce and you've been betrayed I mean, that's huge to be betrayed is is one of the most fundamental One of those fundamental visceral experiences for a human being because we are so so social and so when somebody betrays you You really have to you owe yourself the work of figuring out how you're going to make sense of that situation Before you go into the same type of relationship again Now do you find when somebody is betrayed they blame themselves because that's what I see a lot In other words, what did I do wrong? It wasn't the person that cheated on me It was did I do something wrong to make them cheat? Yeah, how do you talk to a guy like that and that's a useful question up to a point You have to ask you have to ask the question. How did I end up in this situation? What did I miss? Did I miss some warning signs and sometimes the answer is no you didn't miss anything? This is just a bad seed or a bad situation. It was beyond your control usually That's not the case. Usually there's some little thing something you overlooked and it doesn't make you a bad person But it's a really difficult thing to look at and it's really important to know It doesn't make you a morally bad person that that you missed something and that you may bear some responsibility for in for bringing this relationship into your life But it is a difficult question to sit with and it's a difficult question not to go too far with and there's there's a There's a sweet spot in there where you can Look at your role in something but not be consumed with how badly you screwed up You know or whatever thought thought it is that that you have or you complete it Or that you have no social skills or that everything's hopeless. It's it's Difficult it's a it's a line to to walk where you're looking at the question, but not falling over the edge with it Now now in the man is fear there's a phrase and it's complacency brings breeds contempt Do you agree with that? So help me out with that that that refers to Relationships where a man gets too comfortable and the woman yeah becomes contemptuous of them And so help me operationalize that a little bit. So what does a guy act like when he's too comfortable? He's not trying anymore. He's not taking care of himself or yeah, he's he's not he's not dressing he comes home He wears his you know his pajama pants, you know, he's he's farting in front of her He's it's just that so comfortable that it just it makes It just makes you repellent to a woman and and I'm saying this from personal because again when I went through a breakup here and Of course, the first thing I did was blame the woman and I I I had to take a step back and say you know what I Also was responsible for this because I got complacent. I didn't do the things I wasn't leading like I normally was in the first part of the relationship in other words I wasn't checking on her financial status. I wasn't doing the things that I think she Expected me to do so when I say complacency breeds contempt. That's kind of what I'm saying Yeah, and I think it flows both ways I think men get pretty fed up with women who let themselves go and my wife and I made an agreement when we married that We weren't gonna let ourselves go physically because that's important to us But it goes both ways, but there's there's a particular burden for men. There's there's that burden of performance and this has been well quantified by By various people, but there's a psycho social psychologist out of Florida where you are Roy Bowmeister and he has looked at societies across time and throughout cultures and there's One common that's very few there's there's a lot of commonalities But one commonality is that the men of any society are always expected to provide something You're expected to bring more to the tribe than you consume you need to perform You need to get your ass out of bed every morning go out conquer the day kill something and bring it back That's required and it's it seems to be an evolved trait that women Appreciate that in men and look for certain things and women one of the things women look for in men is How well does he satisfy his burden of performance and when you say to her? Well, I give up I'm gonna I'm just gonna sit her on the couch and scratch myself and you can look at it And I'm not gonna improve. Well, who you know, what wouldn't wouldn't be turned off by that Mm-hmm. Gotcha. Yeah, so that's kind of what I mean I mean, there's there's so many so many phrases in the man is fear that you know Resonate with me and when you break them down and actually look into them. I think it's real interesting Now you said you also do a would you say a coaching a coaching arm or whatever in your business for men? Okay, I have the clinical side of my practice where I can deal with Within Colorado where I'm licensed I can deal with clinical issues like anxiety disorders and so forth but then there's the coaching side where I If guys are trying to sort out questions about their relationship patterns and they're trying to to reach a certain goal and in relationships then we can Sort of try to eliminate the obstacles between them and their goal Mm-hmm. When you talk to a 20 year old and a 50 year old does that make a difference? Say guys 20 years old and a guy's 50 years old. So what's yeah, you what's the difference? Well, you and I are both in our fifties and so We were talking we were chatting a little bit earlier before we went live about how things change a little bit when you Yeah, you start calming down a little bit You go a little less fiery about things and you start seeing things from a little little safer distance I guess or more of a distant vantage point and so I don't know how it is for you You can tell me how how it is but when I when I look at a 20 year old and I listen to a 20 year old I Think of my how I was when I was in my 20s and how naive I was about things and We're dummies when we're 20s. What do we know? We know nothing. We're idiots And so and I say that in the most affectionate way because I was an idiot too. Yeah, and so there's there's certain things that young guys Don't know that they will learn You know that you can learn it the hard way by going through it or you can learn it the easy way by Seeing by learning from other guys have already been through it. So you don't have to reinvent the wheel Do you find that a 20 year old will adapt quicker than a 50 year old? In what sense and when you're coaching them in other words when you're telling them like you can do this to improve your situation or Can do you see what I'm saying? Will they adapt quicker because when you're 50 40 50 60 You're set in your ways and it doesn't matter. You don't always take the advice you might listen to it But it doesn't mean you're going to follow through on it. So yeah, I'll give you two answers I'll give you my personal answer and then my what I've experienced it My personal answer is that when I was 20 years old I was pretty headstrong and a lot of that was came out of insecurity and so I would listen to advice from certain people but they had to they had to reach a certain level of reverence in my life Otherwise, I was kind of a knucklehead and I think a lot of young guys are that way now if Somebody gives me a piece of advice. I'm gonna pay serious attention to it and if it seems like good advice I'm gonna try it out So I'm much more amenable to advice than I used to being part of that as I had matured And I become more secured in who I am and so forth But in terms of people who come to me by the time somebody comes to me They're usually looking for answers and I'm usually trying to help them find the answers And so I haven't noticed any difference between young guys and older guys and how Resist well, I don't even like that term resist but how open they are to trying things and Experimenting with different things so we can try to get to an answer And that this is particularly now of when I work with anxiety because people who come into an office to work with an anxiety disorder try to get over an anxiety disorder usually very motivated to get over that and so There's there's very good protocols for dealing with this stuff and people are usually pretty amenable as long as I'm being respectful and not Pushing them trying pushing them to do something that they just don't want to do or aren't ready to do or can't do yet Are there different levels of anxiety? I mean to me in it. This is this is anxiety to me When I go to bed at night Sometimes I'm thinking about my job in the morning like are there enough to my force Do I do this? Do I you know, did I? Did I order the the right windows? Did I that to me is anxiety? Are there different levels of anxiety and people? See anxiety Yeah, yeah, there's all different kinds in the diagnostic and statistical manual the DSM 5 It has some pluses and minuses and there's some things that I don't really like about and there's some things that a lot of people Don't really like about it, but it has a pretty nice descriptive breakdown of the different anxiety disorders So you're kind of a ruminator you your mind is always sounds like going off into the future And and trying to figure out all the possibilities and permutations and things that could happen So you spend a lot of time in the future ruminating about that. That's a smart person problem by the way Okay, it takes it takes a little bit of brain power to have that that kind of anxiety Doesn't mean you're dumb if you don't have that kind of anxiety But you have to be smart to have that and then there's all different varieties of the way anxiety manifests And anxiety always kind of boils down to the same thing It's your mind trying to move you away from something that it thinks is dangerous But that can manifest in all kinds of different ways and it can get to the point where People as you know can just be shut into their homes because the anxiety of even setting foot outside is so overwhelming And the answer to anxiety whatever form it takes is always the same It's whatever it is that you're afraid of if that fear is getting in the way or that anxiety is getting in the way of your Of your living your life. We're gonna tackle that thing. We're gonna face it if it's an elevator We're gonna write an elevator We're gonna do it intelligently and we're gonna do it in a very methodical way But you're getting on that elevator if you want to get past this anxiety. It's always the same answer now you're a Clinical psychologist a doctor. Do you prescribe because it seems like there's a talk about a pandemic, but there's a pandemic of What are they called Anti-depressants Valium Xanax all those anxiety medications. Yeah is our do you recommend sometimes that people get on something like that? Rarely there are times when it makes sense There's as bad as benzodiazepines are and they're horrible. They're horrible drug They're grossly over as a prescribed people get addicted to them and then it can take years to get off of them And it's just a miserable experience, but as bad as they are Sometimes there's a place for them for example one one example would be you are You get a very heightened anxiety about getting on to an airplane, but you only ride an airplane once a year All right, so take a Xanax and ride the airplane and you know how much just just do it You know so one one Xanax a year to get you to where you're going That's fine, or I guess it might be two because you might have to take one coming back, right? So so there's an example, but it's very sparing and we do have this they should be used very sparingly We do have this in my estimation We grossly over prescribe SSRIs and SNRIs and all these anti-depressants and when I see um primary care physicians prescribing something like Affects are well buterin for an anxiety disorder one of those is particularly not great for anxiety disorders But when I see that it it's kind of disheartening to me And I don't I don't get mad at physicians because they get like 10 minutes of training on mental health, but the The best response in what I say best the response with the best outcomes for almost any kind of anxiety disorders behavioral treatment It's not medication and medication can be an adjunct to that as you're building skills But you know we we just prescribe this stuff to a ridiculous degree and these these drugs are not without serious trade-offs Okay, what's the difference between in a? Like a Xanax, what did you call them in a valium that's a benzodiazepines and an anti-depressant What's the difference between those two the neurotransmitters that they act on so? SSRI's they they act by blocking reuptake of serotonin in your brain or Noripinephrine in some of them, but and Benzodiazepines, I'm a little rusty on the actual and they can't sub it so I'm gonna stay away from that, but they they block certain receptors and That lowers anxiety, but the problem with those particular drugs is that when you come off of them You get a massive spike of anxiety It's almost unbearable like people crawling out of their skins because it's almost like you've pushed this spring down and By taking this drug and when you do it for long enough What happens is your brain adjust and it says okay? Well, I guess we don't this is the new normal So we're not gonna do things the way we used to do it And then you take that drug away and suddenly this anxiety just springs to life and it's more than anxiety From what I've heard it's just a physically miserable experience to to come off of those particular drugs Yeah, I like how you put that so a spring under compression And you're holding that spring down and then when you get off those drugs that spring just kind of explodes Is what it seems like what you're saying. I mean, I was prescribed a Antidepressant which I never took after a car accident. Why I haven't I have no idea why And this was about Probably 20 years ago. I have no clue why none. I'm well. I never didn't I never took it. Good Yeah, I wasn't depressed. I mean, I don't I didn't understand why I was prescribed that I have no clue why so But it seems to yeah, it seems to be like I've talked to women and a lot of women that I know and Have dealt with and I am a remodeler So I do spend a lot of time in people's houses, but I've noticed a lot of women are on antidepressants You know, I've seen them. I've seen them in their cabinets and they've told me about them. So well women Yeah, women I think are prescribed more often than that. I don't remember the exact exact numbers But women are higher in trait neuroticism They tend to be a little more depressed and a little more anxious on average than men And so it makes sense that they are prescribed these medications more often than men and more hams So often medications should be the last thing you try and not the first thing you try There are times when it's the first thing you try, but they're pretty rare. Okay, good Well, that's some that's some good advice to anybody who might have Recently been prescribed something. I mean it, you know, I think there's a way to handle things And it sounds like you can get somebody past that so you don't have to give them something that they're gonna be addicted to Yeah, I think is important particularly any kind of benzodiazepine and the the narcotics also the the morphines and morphines, but those that class of drugs I think medicine has gotten pretty good at keeping people from it getting addicted to the narcotics But for some reason the benzos are they're just out there like leaves on the tree and they just get handed out Like candy almost and they're not candy It's kind of an easy way to deal with something it sounds like with some doctors It's like here take this and you're gonna be okay, you know, you won't worry. You won't do this So I think that's yeah, that's true for a while. Yeah, that's true for one till that spring Yeah, decompresses again. So all right. Well, let's switch gears here. Let's go back to the man is fear Okay, I want to I want to talk about some some Manisphere labels like everybody seems to have a label for for a different person now. You're going to be You know, they're gonna say okay. Well, you're not red pill. You are blue pill. Nope. He's not blue pill He's kind of red pill and blue pill. So he's purple pill. Yeah, this guy is angry. So he's black pill But this guy's a migtail and now we talked about this before Earlier and I said well, maybe I'm a migtail because I'm not in a relationship and Don't plan on getting into one right at this point in my life. So I guess I would be considered a maybe a Red pill or a purple pill make migtail. So what do you think of all the labels? and maybe maybe I'm maybe I would be called purple pill because I Actually enjoy the company of women every now and then I actually enjoy a conversation and cooking dinner and spending time So maybe I am a purple pill migtail Which but that to me like I I'll like I'll I'll prescribe myself My label of the week. So what do you think of all these these labels that are put on everybody? Well, I mentioned before that I'm not a there are some things I don't like about the diagnostic and statistical manual and one of the things that I don't like about it is that it gives the impression that if you slap a label on somebody a diagnosis that you have that you understand them and Mental health workers and to some degree depending on where they work if they're working on a real high pressure situation They're vulnerable to this and physicians should not be diagnosing people in the 15 minute visit that they get if that's what they have to work with because You slap that label on somebody you you're not going to do any good for them really with that label But you could have long-lasting effects because they could you know that label is going to follow them this whole thing about Privacy in health care. It's nonsense like that label is going to stick with them So and but the bigger issue for me is that it doesn't give you any explanation of the under it Doesn't give you any understanding of the problem. So if somebody comes to me and says they have panic disorder Well, I got a little sense of what that means, but I don't know what that means. We got to get into that and figure out When are you panicking? What's going on when you're panicking me? There's so many Fascinating questions to ask about a panic disorder and so many routes you can go in in trying to fix it or You know diminish it But the label does nothing to help you other than to say here's a little glimpse of the problem So I'm not a big fan of labels. I'm not a big fan of categorizing people I tend to take people as individuals and there is a lot of this Labeling and and there seems to be you know The the guys that there seems to be a handful of guys that are in charge of the labels like they hand out the labels for people You're this color or you're that color you're another color And that's like the most primitive way I can think of to distinguish my team from your team But then it seems to go sometimes in some quarters to a really dark level where it becomes a case of good versus evil and you see this in I'm And this word cult gets used a lot in the Manisphere to describe certain folks. I'm not saying that but you you see That kind of thinking and things like Scientology I do a lot of reading about Scientology because I'm fascinated by cults and I'm fascinating this is one this is a cult that has been tremendously successful and one of the things they do is What all cults do which is they there's us and there's them And if you're not us then you're one of them and if you're one of them you're evil So so the them in Scientology would be a suppressive person. That's that's their term for what would what might be considered purple pill So you're a suppressive person in Scientology. That means that Not only are you a threat to the religion But you're because you're a threat to the religion and the religion's job is to save the world You as a suppressive person are a threat to the world and what kind of person threatens the world Well an evil person threatens the world threatens the safety of innocent people So if you are a suppressive person you were evil and I do see a bit of this going on in the Manisphere where it's it's us Them red blue good bad good evil and I don't see the value in that because I've not met Anybody and all the factions of the Manisphere that I would consider evil. It's like I really bristle at The labels taking that direction now Would you consider that ideology and I ideology? I Think about I was thinking about this today actually where where's the how do you draw? What's the line between where? turns in turns dark like that where we're getting into good versus evil and and I think that it really does center on Ideas becoming sacred so it could be a religious idea It could be an ideology that that has become sacred and you see this a lot in my profession my profession is just god-awful about this where my the people in my profession for the most part overwhelmingly have adopted a certain ideology and The problem goes back a ways. There's a problem. There's a paper from 2012 that was starting to discuss Psychologists mistreating each other on the academic side of the field because if you you know 99% of us are this Ideology and if you're the one guy over here that isn't of that ideology the 99 will gang up on you So as back as 2012 far back as 2012 This was actually being quantified and it has just gotten worse and worse and worse to the point where if you're in my field You have to sign on to you either have to be an outspoken person who doesn't care about the safety of their career like me Like I'm very outspoken about it or you told the line and you just try to keep your head down so that you don't get Mistreated and have your career ruined by this righteous mob that has signed on to the sacred set of ideas And it's the same kind of process that you see in Scientology and other cults where if you don't believe these ideas It's not that we disagree. It's that you are actually an agent of evil in the world and it's such a dangerous way of thinking Well, there's another term. It would be nae waltz and a waltz. So all if you were to say on certain Certain sides that not all women are like that you would be ostracized. You are you're kicked out of the club Now, how do you feel about that like not all women are like that or all women are like that? I I'm very I'm a data-driven person. So when I hear somebody or I see somebody on lawn saying all women are like that Or some version of all women are like that the first thing that comes to my mind is what the hell are you talking about? What do you mean exactly all women are like that? Can can you quantify it? Never hurt anybody quantify it other than You know all women are I guess it kind of boils down to all women can hurt me Which I guess is true. Well, it it would probably lead us into Hypergamy. Hypergamy is a big thing in the manosphere and so The hypergamous nature of women would mean all women are like that or all women are capable of doing that Now I do believe that anybody is capable of anything But to me, it's kind of a dark. It's kind of a dark look at women. I get it under. I don't even Understanding the nature of women to me. That's another one like What does that when somebody says that to you understand the nature of women? What does that mean to you? Yeah, that's an interesting question This this whole topic that you're talking about is an interesting question because Yes, there is truth to it that that all women have the capacity to hurt you Um, I like to look at Colts. There's this guy Jordan Peterson. He's very famous He likes to look at the dark history of the 20th century and one of the points that he makes about the 20th century is that You better not assume that you couldn't have been A guard at dachau or or you know one of those you you couldn't have become a nazi don't assume that about yourself because you don't know that because Almost every man every person has the capacity in the right situation to become a monster And if you're not willing to recognize that about yourself, you're actually a pretty dangerous person because you do have that capacity So yes, and I agree with that. I think he's right about that because the people that found themselves working in prison camps What like there was just suddenly some Some gathering of monsters in this one town and this one town around this prison camp Suddenly just had all these monsters that were perfectly capable of just stepping into the role of prison guard No, they're they're regular people that got drawn into that and he lays it out pretty nicely how that happens and so To the mana spirits point that all women have the ability to hurt you all women have the ability to act in uncivilized ways Of course, they do what what is that supposed to be some kind of insight? Of course they do so you find the ones that don't that don't value that kind of behavior I mean I step back and take a look at things to me When I hear hypergamy what it means to me now is is like I said a woman has the has the capability of Of moving up Okay Not not all women. I don't think are hypergamous I think they're capable of being hypergamous, but I also think that I would consider myself hypergamous Because of course I would want the best mate for myself But I think the definition of it is means doesn't matter who you're with They are always when they find someone that's better than you you're gone Do you agree with that definition? I mean And that's kind of what I again I look I listen to different podcasts and you know Because this is a this is a huge word and it's become it's become very generic too So do you agree with with that where you could be with your wife for 20 years? And all of a sudden she's going to find that guy that's making $50,000 more than you he's got his arms are two inches bigger than yours and she's going to go right there To me that's the Most popular definition of hypergamy Yeah, well, there's a couple definitely what do you think of that? I mean So let's define terms I don't find it to be a very useful concept just as in the work that I do which doesn't mean it's not useful to guys And I don't I know there are a lot of guys out there that find this you this concept of Hypergamy to be extremely useful because it helps them understand How things work and I have no problem with that because I think there's some good lessons from this Manusphere definition of hypergamy and I actually did a 42 minute video where I just drawn it on and on about hypergamy and I looked into it very deeply like like I really tried to wrap my head around this idea of hypergamy so there's a couple definitions one is A very old boring Definition that comes out of sociology, which is that women like to date Up, okay, that's that's so obvious that it's not very interesting And then there's the manusphere definition or the red pill whatever you want to call it Where it has been become a crowdsourced Grand unified theory of female Psychology and I'm overstating that it's it's okay. I'll back off that a little bit. It's it's a very complex theory that explains most of what women do and To my to my experience having really looked into it It's just not a very useful concept and one of the things that it forgets to your point It it it discounts some some facts about female nature, which is that females women tend to like security like healthy women like secure relationships and For this hypergamy framework to be 100 accurate women would have to not be security seeking creatures That's robert glovers. I'm phrasing is that women are security sake security seeking creatures so Women, yes, they they are hypergamous in the sense that they they want to date up And they are hypergamous in the sense that if you let your game fall apart then she might find somebody more interesting Yeah, okay. This doesn't seem like a tremendous insight to me, but For for as hypergamous as they might be Women don't healthy women don't want to go to family court. It's not a picnic Even though they do better in family court. They do better with alimony. They do better with Custody that's not where they want to go. They don't want to disrupt their families They don't want to uproot their children They don't want to be a disappointment to their families and say goodbye to their in-laws healthy women Don't want that level of chaos in their life And this theory of hypergamy that comes out of the red pill it suggests that women crave chaos and You have to discount a lot of human nature for that to be true Okay, I also think that a lot of guys use that I don't even like saying that word a lot of guys some guys will use that as a crutch In other words, she left me because she was hypergamous Because I you know anytime i'm listening to it doesn't matter who I listen to or but that word is just everywhere It's everywhere So I also think that other people have their different version of it again. I have my version of it And I did watch your video that was probably what six months ago Where you broke it all down, which I thought was really interesting, but to me It's It's not the end all be all I I just I just don't find it as the end all be all to a relationship gone bad Or is it going to be in the back of my mind now in any relationship that I get into You know, of course, it's going to be there I understand it, but I don't want to use it as a crutch You know, and I think that's what some guys do is use it as a crutch Or an excuse Yeah, and you have to be you have to be really Care careful about how you how you think if you want to understand human beings You got to be careful about how you approach problems. There was this. Um, do you know what a Harris specs is have you heard that word Harris specs? No, it's it's really arcane word. It was back in In Rome in ancient ancient Rome where these were priests That would read the entrails of animals, okay And so they would read the entrails of animals and they would predict the future and supposedly Julia Caesar before he all his buddies knifed him A Harris specs said I don't even know if he's saying that right word, right? Maybe someone correct me But some somebody warned him about this that that had read the entrails of a sacrificial chicken or a sacrificial lamb, right? and so That's what a Harris specs is so When I made that video I get a lot of kickback from that video and I get two kinds of responses. Nobody rebuts my arguments Nobody nobody's done that. I get two responses. Either somebody's telling me what color pill I am Pink pill or purple whatever, you know putting me on the on the purple team over there or They give they give a response. It's a little more thoughtful, which is well hypergamy fits with my experience So, okay, so what does that mean that something that an explanation fits with your experience? I don't doubt them by the way I'm not I'm not saying they're wrong that this fits with their experience but Going back to Julia Caesar He could look at his here His hair specs if I think I'm mangling that word, but he could look at his Harris backs Let's pretend that I'm saying that correctly and he could say if he was still alive Well, it fits with my experience that that person read the the guts of a chicken or the liver of a lamb And accurately predicted my future. So It's a hundred percent correct that that fits with his experience Doesn't mean that explains his experience. So when guys come at me and they say well, this fits with my experience My response first of all is nothing. I'm not going to argue with your experience You know, if that makes sense for you then cool I'm not going to try to tinker with what makes sense for you. It's not my job And it's it's a really arrogant thing to do. But in my mind, I'm thinking Just because it fits with your experience doesn't mean it explains your experience And this is like logic 101 and men can be very logical until the emotions take over and suddenly logic gets a little fuzzy Yeah, and as man to hang on the logic as men were really not supposed to be emotional I think that I think as men if we think you're right if we can control our emotions I mean, you know We really shouldn't be angry and that's why like myself also. I'm not I'm not angry at Anybody in the man is fear. I don't get angry if I disagree with somebody I I do try to look at the end goal I look at everybody in this whole group of guys You know whether this team doesn't like this team or or the mig towels don't like the red pillars and the You know the the incels and the the guys who Like dating stuffed dolls, you know what I mean? But I also look at it this way if you If you get some value out of it and you can be Take a step back and look at the whole picture And I think hopefully the end goal is to help men and to me that's the most important thing is helping men In this world where you know, you get men get dragged through divorce core and you know And I'm not saying that you know women don't have issues also because they do absolutely I just don't I don't like the I don't like the anger. I think is what it is. I'm not I don't you know I've all everybody's had their anger moments, but I don't like I don't like the anger and to me Anger is a feminine trait the emotions and this is me. You can tell me I'm right or wrong But these deep emotions are more feminine. I expect a woman to react like that not a man You know as a man, I think we should take a step back Look at a situation and and then deal with it not just there are times when you have to react, of course Whether it's a violent situation or protecting one of your loved ones, but I don't think emotions are These these these hardcore emotions are more feminine to me. What do you think about that? I think that yeah, well responding in an emotional way is It's not The way I want to move through the world as a man I'll just you know, I'll put it that way because I think that's pretty accurate But I think that um, you know part of that not responding In an emotional way is to try to see how things are functioning people and try to get another people's heads a little bit So let's talk about the upside of this this whole hypergamy theory that has been crowdsourced The upside you brought up complacency earlier how dangerous that is and so The lesson I think the primary lesson of this red pill theory of hypergamy is don't be complacent And that's a really good lesson. That's a lesson that my profession won't give to men Which is almost inhumane that that my profession will tell men Oh, you're just fine the way you are all you need to do is get in touch with your love language and you know, all this Stuff that sometimes is fine, but my profession If we're going to help men understand how relationships turn out successfully We need to start speaking about some hard truths that No one in my profession other than a handful of us are willing to discuss Okay, so um When you're when you're coaching a guy do you use So you don't use any of these terms, but you do use your experience in the manisphere to To kind of does that in other words does your experience in the manisphere? Does it help you with your coaching? Absolutely because there's a lot of different sources of data and The research that's out there some of it is good data. Some of it is is crap data like the formal research the papers that get written um And so you have to get good at at recognizing what you can depend on and what you can't depend on in In the professional literature, but that's just one source of data growing up in a bar was a source of data for me and the manisphere I Guys have been so gracious about allowing me into This little corner of the internet and I've learned so much from from being there. So yeah, it's a huge source of data So the fact that so many guys talk about hypergamy I can I disagree with I disagree with this whole theoretical framework. I don't think it's Well, I should say I disagree with large parts of it. I don't think it's the product of disciplined thinking It's it's a product of a lot of emotional thinking and some discipline thinking but the fact that this is Speaking to so many men. Well, that's important and that needs to be attended to even if I don't think the theory You know, even if it doesn't really turn my crank I need to attend to the fact that this is working for a lot of guys And so obviously there's something that Is there and it's maybe something that I'm not understanding yet. So so to answer your question. Yes Okay, good. Good. Yeah, because it's you know, again, we were talking about You know labels and all these different phrases, you know But I think what happens is men can get caught up in phrases terms And not really look at themselves Because again to me another Emotional response that's feminine is to start blaming everybody. In other words has nothing to do with me I'm gonna blame her or I'm gonna blame My buddy because I can't handle my own Responsibility and I think as a man We should own own up to what we did and learn by it But I think a lot of a lot are most guys don't I don't even want to say most some guys Don't own up to the problem that they caused or the issue that they had so Yeah, and I would say more often than not is just that you don't know any better when you're making choices And this is why young guys in particular Young guys in their teens and early 20s shouldn't be making big decisions about relationships because there's just way too much on the line to And that's that's the time in life where you're pressured to make big decisions And you know the least and that's kind of a setup So I'm I'm always telling guys to pump the brake pump the brakes on the big decisions Okay, can can can let's say somebody's not in colorado can they still consult with you like through a skype interview Yeah, it depends on on the issue. Yeah If it's not a if it's not something that shows up in the dsm or the icd like an anxiety disorder And it's more of we're trying to get to a goal more coaching than yeah, I can I can do some of that Okay, and so how can guys how can everybody find you whether it be your social media or You know, what's the best way to find you everywhere? Well, I have a website doc smith dot co and then i'm on twitter at iron shrink and that's my only social media So you can find me there Okay, awesome Well, it was really good talking with you and I hope we can do this again because I think I could talk to you for hours There's so many topics that you know and again you being part of the manisphere I don't know if you were drawn into the manisphere kind of like the mafia You know, but uh, you know, I I think you're a very big part of it I mean, I've seen two of your speeches which I thought were incredible One of your one of the first books that I read was yours and I'll tell everybody Any man should get this book, especially if you're looking at or if you're in a relationship or getting into a relationship or Just just get this book and read it. I think it's absolutely one of my inside this book is probably the Third copy and the last time I I lent it out. I actually got it back with a nice note So well, thanks. Tony. That's really generous of you. Yep. So I do appreciate your time And let's do this again sometime. Yeah, it's really good to see you. Tony. Thank you Good to see you too. Thank you. All right. Talk again. Take care