 What is the southern part of Italy? That's where her attorney had to come from and in Italy he would be talking like that redneck or the southern attorney, but in Italian, because if he was Chase's lawyer, he'd be pronouncing his name wrong, Huggies. Let me tell you something. Mr. Huggies, my client, of course he has no witnesses that he was not there for the murder, but he's just going to have to trust me on that one. That's a good one. All right. Here we go. Scott Rasmussen, a body language expert and analyst, trained law enforcement in the military in interrogation to body language. I'm also a trial consultant and Greg and I created the number one online body language micro learning course, body language techniques. Mark. I'm Mark Bowden. I'm an expert in human behavior and body language and help people all over the world to stand out, win trust and gain credibility every time they communicate, including some of the leaders of the G7. Chase. Hey, I'm Chase Hughes. I'm a bestselling author in influence persuasion and behavioral profiling. I've also got a fiction book right here about mind control and behavior profiling. And I'm a trial consultant here in the US and I have a lot of courses online that I also teach for persuasion and influence. Greg. Greg Hartley. I'm a former Army interrogator, interrogation instructor, resistance to interrogation instructor. I've written a few books on body language and behavior. And Scott and I have this body language tactics.com course. I spend most of my time in corporate America and on Wall Street today. Excellent. All right, well today we're going to go. This is part two of the Amanda Knox situation. And we've got a lot of a lot of blowback from this thing. Greg, you want to address that a little bit. Yeah, guys, let me just say up front, we're not going to try to accommodate your views. And if you've got long held beliefs about Amanda Knox, great. And we're not, I chase you hit it best. We're not looking at forensics. We're not looking at other evidence. We're looking at this video specifically. And we try hard not to say she's guilty or innocent. You'll hear us not say guilty or innocent. We'll tell you what we see and what we would do if we were interrogators. We know we're going to get some hate mail. I'm also going to tell you, we are not shy. We have taken on a prince and vice president and president. Why would we stop there? So we're going to go after this and look at body language by language, even in intelligence or in criminal prosecution is not 100%. That's the reason we don't use it in court. We may advise, but it's not used as evidence. But body language is a tool for an interrogator to be able to know what's next and to be able to ask the next question and to probe when they see something wrong. Interrogation is not the final word unless you get a confession. So what we are trained to do is to go after that confession and to be honest and look for a real confession, not a false confession. But at the end of the day, criminal justice system in every country in Italy is very different in the United States relies on forensics, plus, plus, plus, and then you go to trial unless you just waive a trial. So what we want you to hear is what we see and how we would approach this, not that she is guilty or innocent. That's up to court. Hopefully that helps. Now remember as we go along, we're not going to be telling you this person's lying or this person's telling the truth. That's not what we're doing. So what we'll do is we'll say, and we're not on either side of whether she's lying or telling the truth or whether the person is honest or dishonest. So what we're going to do is we'll say we see deception and we see it here, here and here, and we see truth and we see it here, here and here. We see truth. So keep in mind we're not anybody's side. Her trial things already happened. We're just telling you what we see. And guys, the other piece is what we, when I read the case, the case is so messy trying to figure out she was there. She wasn't there. She was with a guy who killed her. She wasn't with a guy who, you know, your head starts to spin. What we're after is why were the Italian police so convinced that she had done something? Well, we're going to tell you what we see and what every interrogator is trained to look for. And that's what you need to know. Exactly. All right. So let's get started. Let's hit video one. All I knew is it creeped me out. And so I went outside with Raphael and thank goodness Raphael was there because I wouldn't even know who to call. Like I just didn't, it's not 9-1-1 in Italy. It's 1-1-3, I think, or 1-1-2. Either way, like I didn't know. All right, Chase, what do you got? Well, all I knew, it creeped me out. Is that it creeped me out? That's all I knew. I knew nothing else. That's it. It's a feeling versus story here. And I think there's a very interesting data point. And that's all it is. So far, we're collecting these data points as we go along. Her eyes are all at the ground the whole time until she wants to build rapport or until she's telling the truth. If we watch any of her other videos, even the one she's recently done here, she makes incredible eye contact. She's a wonderful conversationalist, very social, very intelligent. So that was weird. And I wouldn't even know who to call instead of I didn't know who to call. I thought that was an unusual choice of words there. Another great data point. Absence of concrete placement as if it's a story shift, so wouldn't versus I didn't. And there's a feigned facial expressions here. And I think we all of us can agree that asymmetrical facial expressions with one exception are usually fake. And that is contempt is the expression there when somebody kind of sneers at you was disdain or looking down on you. So contempt is the only usually the only asymmetrical facial expression that's genuine we see that three times just in this one clip here. And we see one comes up to us at the end of this we see some vague recall. And we see some hiding time as Greg calls it shortly after a few minutes later, and I'll leave that to you guys and I'll pass it to Greg what do you got. Good call that hiding time and so and then all of those things are ways that people hide time doesn't mean guys again this doesn't mean criminal activity. It means she's jumping over something good interrogator goes okay hold on let's talk about and then and then means what this happened and then what let's walk through the mechanics that micro interview we talked about so she hides time a couple of times. She it freaked me out and so is exactly what she says, I wouldn't even know who to call she goes into this really long drawn out thing about why she wouldn't know is it one one two or one one three. Here's an interesting note. This is many years after all this happened by now she should remember is it one one two or one one three doesn't really matter. But this is a place where you see who she is and I think you hit it dead on chase. She goes out of her way to make connection. She has that kind of goofy thing going on that contempt look to her face, and she's bubbly almost and engaging where we haven't seen that in the other pieces of the video. My guess is that we're seeing her natural communication style. When she's talking about something because a one one three or one one two is not pertinent. And when people are talking about non pertinent data they give you information that you can baseline them from. So when she does that. That's all skeptical thing, and she breaks icon down and away and doesn't nervous laugh. My guess is in normal conversation with her that nervous laugh is how she gets away from something uncomfortable. So that's all I see in this one not up there's not a whole lot in this first video, but I think you covered most of it chase. So, Mark, what do you get. I think the most interesting thing for me is just how animated that face is especially around the eyebrows and the head area around the mouth. Around this idea of I didn't know what number it was. She's almost I think really entertaining us with that moment when she could just go look I was disorientated confused in a country that I didn't understand. I didn't call the police because I just didn't know the number. And I think she's trying to create a bigger scene around that and I've said it before it is this kind of Nick Parks kind of Wallace and grommet huge animation that's going on there super interesting to watch Greg's point earlier in this episode. It's things like that that cause interviewers to go there. Hang on let's just dig in there. There's some good reasons why somebody can be that extreme in their facial expressions and and not be guilty of anything more than trying to get a really good story across and some kind of social acceptance as to why they did some things that maybe others wouldn't expect them to do like not call the police immediately because they disorientated and they're confused and it's not their country and it's it's it is weird and freaky what's going on here, you know. Yeah, one thing is I watch her her whole facial expression all that just because somebody shows signs of guilt or something doesn't mean they're guilty of that I'll give you great example I may ask you. You're in trouble I bring you in and I say hey where were you Tuesday the 9th of July and you suddenly go your face wrenches up and you get some weird thing and then I start probing and I find out hey you forgot to pay a parking ticket that was due on the 9th of July so what we're saying is you have to dig and I think that's exactly it you have to dig to understand we're doing this second hand but we're telling you there are flags that cause us to dig in there's a there are a lot of them that would cause her to get ground up pretty good. Yeah, yeah in this particular case if somebody makes all of that eyebrow movement all of that one point. I'm going to go tell me a bit more about that because either they're trying to entertain me or they're hiding something and it could be their embarrassment around confusion not knowing the country being an alien somewhere and weird stuff happening. I hear what you guys are saying about this but of course I'm going to here's what my take is on her making those faces about not knowing the number. I think she's exhibiting her ignorance that of how stupid she is or how she does not stupid but how she doesn't understand what's happening with everything on her continuous campaign of ignorance where I don't understand what's going on. I don't see what's happening here and I got three things set up. It's the first thing we see is that those three short little shoulder shrugs when you see a shoulder shrug a quick one like that a lot of times it doesn't mean anything it could mean a myriad of things. However, it suggests it indicates it denotes that that person is uneasy or they're not sure about what they're saying when that shoulder pops up real quick, especially when you get three in a row. That's when she's talking about how she doesn't understand what's happened there. Then she goes along again when she makes that face is to exhibit her ignorance that she doesn't know what's going on and she doesn't understand that was my take on that one. And then she then we've got like Chase was talking about this attempted control of her facial expressions. It's like she's trying to look confused and she's trying she uses the word strange like 1400 times in the entire interview. It's unbelievable how how she doesn't understand how confused she is. And as she starts talking about that before they we get to finding the defining the body then she starts slowing things down. And we talked about this time market I think we talked about this last time things start to slow down because she's going to do what I call walking the walking across the crossing the creek is what I call it. And to quote Bootsy Collins you can walk on the water in if you know where the rocks are anyone can walk in the water. So the creek is like her story and her going to the pokey. So she's got to make dang sure that she steps on the right rocks again as she goes up as she goes across that creek because if she doesn't she's going to fall in being big trouble. She's got to make sure she's remembering what happened plus as Mark would put together she's being dramatic at that same time because it's a big deal and she knows it's a big deal. She knows with her I can believe it built building up to her how much you can believe it. So I'll leave it right there I've got this whole thing is just a treasure trove of things to use an interrogation where you see someone who's done something they shouldn't have done, and it's just all over the place all over. So the screams I mean the body language all of these pieces scream if you guys think again, we'll get hate mail for this but if you think that we're being unfair, we're doing what we're trained to do. There were opportunities to dig in and figure out what really happened and you take that. And that's where I'm always surprised to see in the comments where they say did you consider this or trauma my favorite. What's that trauma is my favorite. I'm a prisoner of war interrogator you think my subjects may have faced trauma at some point in their life. They still lie. I was asking, I think so and so is on the spectrum. It's like, I don't know. I'm not an expert in that I worked. I did a typical for a movie and only thing I noticed in autism or in people on the spectrum is less forehead involvement. And I worked with that guy on the movie for a while. That's the only thing I noticed that I could say something about. Yeah. All of us during our 20,000 plus hours, I think we're all at the 20,000 hour mark here. That we've, we just miss all these, all these things. Yeah. Nothing's 100% guys. Again, I want us to say body language is not 100%. But I think we're looking at it through four sets of eyes and with very different angles. And I love that about this group. And all of us are saying there's something right there. And it's not one of us saying it's this. We're in the same stuff every time pretty much. Oh, here's a great thing that I think Dina brought up that we should say. Guys, we don't rehearse this. We go watch individually, all of us watch individually. And sometimes we may be last minute getting to watch the videos, but we don't sit and rehearse this. This is your hearing it the first time. Scott's the best traffic cop on the planet. If we start discussing things off air, he stops us and says, go back. No, we don't want to talk about anything to our face to face. Yeah. All I knew is it creeped me out. And so I, I went outside with Raphael and thank goodness Raphael was there because I wouldn't even know who to call. Like I just didn't. It's not 911 in Italy. It's 113, I think, or 112 either way. Like I didn't know. And, and. Okay. We get to go. Yeah. Let's move on. Yes. And so they would like a Philomena was saying we have to, we have to kick down the door. And I was like, well, we tried to kick down the door. And, and then so they tried again. And this time it was Philomena's boyfriend and his friend who kicked down the door. And that's when they discovered Meredith's body. There was, I mean, Philomena immediately started screaming, just screaming. I did not see into the room. I was away. So I didn't really, all I heard from her was blood and a foot. So she kept saying the words for blood and foot and screaming and was hysterical and immediately the police like pushed us out of the, out of the, I mean, Raphael grabbed me and like shuffled me out, but we were told we have to leave now. And. All right. Hey, Mark, let me ask you something. Is it buggy when I put you at the end? Cause you seem to, Greg and I were talking about this. And when we all three say something, if we put you in the middle of one of us and then you do the big gathering up, then somebody else talk is kind of like, yeah, it's kind of, it's kind of whatever you want to put me. I'm okay. So it's easier to be at the end cause then I can. Okay. But I always, I always do that cause it feels like everything's sort of wrapped up everything sort of similar thing. Okay. From an angle we don't look at it from, you don't see it for me. Okay. So I'll go first on this one. Here we see what I think is fascinating. We see this juxtaposition of her knowing the intricate and intimate details of what happened in, in, in, in this situation. And then you have it where she doesn't know anything. She's still confused and doesn't understand. And, and Raphael, the wuss has to explain things to her and go thing. Tell her what everybody's saying and keep in mind, she's going to school there. I think we talked about a little earlier. She's going to school there. She speaks Italian. Greg, didn't you say, or was it you Chase? You did her whole testimony in Italian. So there's no, I think her not understanding what's being said. That's kind of, that's lame. Again, going back to my, her campaign, her campaign of ignorance on this. And again, as she slows down, and she starts locking eyes when she's talking about finding the body. And as we all know, when you find the body, she didn't find Meredith in there. You wouldn't talk about it like that. That's just like Greg was saying earlier, ding, ding, ding, ding, ding. Every bell and whistle goes off because you don't find the body. You find your friend, you find Meredith or your, your friend or your wife or your husband, whoever it is that's, that's been murdered. And again, she slows down because she's, she's got to make that as she crosses the creek. She's got to make every step count. Everything's got to be spot on. And again, she doesn't contract when the part where she says, I didn't see, I did not see, see into the room. Who talks like that? Nobody. I mean, robots and things. You know, if you got a moon accent, I did not see that something like that. But you, but usually you'll contract. You're not going to be able to do that. I didn't do it. I didn't, I didn't see into that. I didn't see in the room that I didn't, I did not see into the room as she locks eyes and make sure that she makes sure the interviewer knows she doesn't know anything about what happened to there. Just what she's been, has been related to her from Raphael the wuss. Then you have, then, and then that strong eye contact is what, is what lets you know, she's trying to make that point in a huge way, in a huge way. And I think the reason she's not looking at it the whole time down because she wants to be observed. We have that social contract where if I'm looking at you, you're going to be looking at me and you're not going to be looking, checking me out everywhere, looking what's going on, what I'm doing, how I'm moving around. So if I'm looking down and telling you this horrible story, you can look at me and look anywhere and see all my little movements and see my expressions and see how I feel about everything. So I think that's, I think that's what's happening there. I think she's looking down because she wants to be observed. She's got to chase, what's the word for that? We've got to come up with something for that. So that's where I'll sit with that. Greg, what do you got? Yeah, this one's an interesting one. So if she in the interrogation room is these words, these are big red flag words. You're going to get chased. That's when they found Mary, this body, body. That's just chase. You call it distancing. That's exactly the further away from the act you are. And then she even talks about her throat was slit. Not somebody cut her throat. Not that kind of thing. But here as we get into this, that would be a red flag. The other one is she's shaking her head. No, when she's talking about Meredith, but making eye contact, which is not every time else in here, she's talking her eyes are down cast down, but she's making eye contact. And she's talking to the person. There are a couple of things. She does too deep emotional swallows that we talked about in the first one around this event. That's not abnormal. I would expect that if somebody died who was close to me and I felt emotion for it, I would probably have that swallow. It only supports my earlier views in part one, that those other things are pertinent to the story as well, because she swallows deep twice. Here's where a good interrogator would ask, how did you feel about that? Just to get her off topic of telling the story and get her into the mechanics of what actually happened. If you'll also notice that about 22 to 23 seconds after she tells this one side of her mouth is down and one is up. Again, Chase, we don't see asymmetric, typically you don't see asymmetric facial expressions unless it's a baseline in people who are being truthful and honest. After the back to back deep swallows, there's also this thing she does where she's self editing a sentence where she goes on and has about five words that mean nothing. And then fill a minute thrown in there. I'm like a good interior. You go, what the hell does that mean? I don't get it. What are you talking about there and go back and get it? The other piece is when she's doing this, she does a lot of requests for approval with riveted eye contact that brow that forehead up and riveted eye contact when she's looking. I would say when she tilted her head, she would be doing what Ackman called fishing for resonance, making sure that you're tied in. This is years later. I'd love to see the video of the actual interrogation because this questioning and this stuff where she's almost saying, Hey, am I doing okay in the story? Are you following my story? Does it fit? It would be interesting to go back. I'll leave it at that because I don't want to jump on a couple of other things I saw there. But I think this is pretty easy to start to see why the interrogators were all over her. There are lots of red flags. Again, doesn't mean she killed anybody. Could mean guilt. Could mean I feel guilty because I was not. There's a ton of reasons, but digging into each of these red flags would tell us more. So Chase, what do you got? What do you got? If you're having a hard time recalling what's going on. And if you're watching this right now, and I bet you are, we've made up a story before. All of us have made up some big fat lie before I did it when I was a kid to my parents. I stayed out too late. I came home at like one in the morning. I was supposed to be home at 10. And as that was happening, our friend and I stayed there made up a whole story with all these details and just made sure we sat down and just made sure we sat there. We had all the story put together. Now I want you to think back to that time and also just try to think of how many times in your life have you said the alphabet? 20,000, 30,000, 50,000. We've said it a lot, but no matter what, unless you've practiced it, you can't say it backwards. So if someone's having trouble like this, and they're telling accurate details of a story, if you ask them to tell you the events in reverse, it will just, it will be just the same as somebody recalling an event in reverse that's fake. Truthful events we can recall with great detail backwards. You can walk me through it right now. You're holding your phone, watching your computer, watching a YouTube video. What were you doing 24 hours prior to now? And that's pretty easy. We can walk backwards easily with truthful events. There's an interrogation tip there. And one thing Greg said, I've asked you like, how did you feel about that? Personally, I use elicitation in the interrogation room. I would say something like, that must have been very emotional without naming the emotion. That must have made you angry or that must have made you sad. I would just say something like, that must have made you pretty emotional. Something like that. Chase, two things. I agree with you the elicitation works really well. I think the approach should be to take her off track. I think, you know, give her that. The other one is, I always say, we've known a lot about body language, but for a long time and about liars. And people say he knew his story forward and backward. Great indicator, right? The thing about telling it backwards is, when you tell a story forward, you've got emotions that attach each one of those sections together. So if you've got somebody that's supposedly, I've got to use this scenario. Somebody's robbed the gas station. And you ask them what they've done. And to Chase's point and your point to Greg, as you go backwards, there's no emotion tying those things together. There's no, as you go through and tell those, you're, that's what connects it. That's the glue that connects everyone, these little scenarios there. So that's the, and I can't remember who did this, who called that or did the study on that, but there's someone out there who said. And they botched timelines. Was it you, Greg? Am I quoting you? No, no. But yeah, no, no, I will tell you that. I always say I've learned throughout my life, a lot of things about liars. One of the best is forward and backward passes. And it is actually a project management term for construction to make sure you don't miss something. And I started using it much more effectively after having been a construction manager. You know, even in my interrogation days, I was not nearly as good as I learned from the civilian world, looking at things through a different lens. So yeah, I think it's, there's a lot of places there. Usually people can't hide time telling a story backward and they missed something. It's a great, it takes it down a linear path. Facts don't lie. And when things are tied together, if it takes 30 minutes to get my house to the Wendy's, then why did it take 90 minutes to get from Wendy's to my house? You know, you, they don't think about that and they don't cover up and they cover up some time. I think we stepped on Mark and didn't give Mark a chance, but I think this is, but let me give you one more thing there though. Being able to do that as an art, being able to see, you can't say, tell me your story backwards. You have to start asking them questions and seeing them go back and you have to be doing it without them knowing it. Columbo. That's the key. Oh yeah. I'm going to put Columbo on it and make him do that. Where are we going to say Chase? I looked down and saw you. Uh, so we saw a few more behaviors here. The study that you were asking about was, uh, Deborah Bridell, B-R-I-E-D-E-L, uh, 1985. Okay. Back study that you were citing there. And we saw some swallowing here. And we also see that in highly intense emotional stuff in other interviews and it's a great baseline for an intense emotional experience. Could be emotional because it's emotional. It could also be emotional because it's deceptive. That's up to the interrogator or the interviewer to understand what question was asked, which we don't have the access to that here. And how was the interaction going at that time? And next, uh, finally here, we see honesty. When she's exiting the apartment, she narrates with her body, her body moves. So we know we see a little bit of honesty here. I was, I had to leave the apartment. They were asking us to leave. So we see body narration. You watch her on podcasts, news interviews, which she's done eight or nine in the last couple of years. There's a lot of body narration. So we see a lot of that there. And there's a study, um, about these asymmetric facial expressions done in 1969 by Ewan Grant, E-W-E-N Grant. And I think you should look up and just type all that in there. You'll see the study. It is fabulous. And it talks about the asymmetry of facial expressions. And Mark, what do you got? Yeah. So here's my take on it. And the question is, is, is what is a story? Well, a story is some, but not all of the data put together in a certain way to serve a certain purpose. So the big question for me for an interview like this is when somebody's telling me a story is to say, so I just, I'm just curious, what do you want me to think about you given this story? Like, how are you trying to get me to feel and think about you? What do you really want from this story? Because they might say, it's unlikely they'd ever say this, but they might say, yeah, I want you to think that I'm innocent given the fact that I'm not. I really did do it, but I want you to think that I'm innocent. Or they could say something like, I want you to think that I'm actually a good person and that I made some mistakes, but they were kind of just mistakes that anybody would make because I'm trying to get on with the rest of my life now. And I need to have a PR operation now that says, you can trust me now, because I've got to get on with the rest of my life. And I think that's probably what's going on here is I think what we've got is definitely a story. This is not all of the facts. This is some of the facts. And I think what Amanda is trying to do here is to come out of this at this point where we go, oh, well, obviously, right? Obviously it didn't call the police. Obviously that happened. Obviously you walked out with a mop. Like it's a bit weird, but you keep telling us it's a bit weird and it was disturbing and nobody knew what was going on. And you're really entertaining with this story. I think that's what she's trying to do right now. Here's what I do see, which is very truthful about it. When she talks about the body and screaming, we do see, along with the double swallow, we see distaste here. We see a sour taste in the mouth. There is real sucking of a lemon disgust around that. I don't think there's enjoyment of the idea of somebody being dead, even though she doesn't name that person. I don't think there's enjoyment of the idea of a dead body. I think she looks into her memory and the fear that she does there as well, as well as the distaste is real for her. I have a feeling as well there's fear and distaste around her behavior around this story. She is not happy with how this story has turned out for her. She's disgusted at how it's turned out for her. It's been a frightening event for her, and I think she'd like it to stop at this point. Those are my conjectures around these feelings that I'm picking up in her body language and looking at the context that she's in right now and looking at the nature of story, which is some of the facts in a certain order for a certain result. That makes sense. Having said all that, Mark, do you think this makes me look like I have lupus? No, John does. I'll try to get this thing fixed. I just look yellow. Yeah, that's horrible. And so, like Filomena was saying, we have to kick down the door. And I was like, well, we tried to kick down the door. And then so they tried again, and this time it was Filomena's boyfriend and his friend who kicked down the door. And that's when they discovered Meredith's body. Filomena immediately started screaming, just screaming. I did not see into the room. I was away. So I didn't really... All I heard from her was blood and a foot. So she kept saying the words for blood and foot and screaming and was hysterical and immediately the police pushed us out of the... I mean, Raphael grabbed me and shuffled me out, but we were told we have to leave now. And... All right, we good? Yeah. I really relied on Raphael to ask questions for me. And he relayed back various information that it was Meredith that her body was wrapped up in a blanket and stuffed in a cupboard is what I understood from what people were saying. They said that there was blood everywhere. They were talking about her throat being slit. And I couldn't picture it. It just seemed so strange because it's like one thing to see a scene like that on CSI or whatever. And it's another one to imagine someone you actually know, like some living person who you just talked to yesterday in those conditions. And so I was really struggling with it. I was very scared and I was very confused. Okay, Greg, what do you got? Yeah, so this is a really interesting one because there's everything, a lot of range of emotion and that kind of thing. Now everybody wants to tell me eye movement doesn't work and you can call me a head lump feeler or whatever you want to call me in the process. But let me give you an example of what eye movement really does. Every person, every one of you, think about something emotional for you. It can be positive, negative is easier. Just think about an emotional thing for the next five seconds while I'm talking. Now look at your own eyes and find where you find your own eyes drifting. This is, if there's an absolute in body language and I don't believe in many, this is one. Downright eye movement. And people's bodies shift in pre-confession. Their head tilts down into the right and that's how you know things are about to change. In the old world, they would have called that kinesthetic, playing back in the NLP stuff and all that stuff, but it's drifting your head and eyes down to the right. You see that in this and I'll point out where because it's an important piece of this. But early in the thing, she does that little push of the tongue out through her lips. It doesn't look like grooming. We haven't seen it yet. So it's kind of an odd place to see it here. Then there's this place where she's saying, she's talking about the, the story and the cupboard. And it feels a hell of a lot like Carol Baskin in early, early, early, like something she's told. So many times she just spitting it out. It was in the cupboard and it feels awkward and artificial and camped to me. It doesn't feel real that just the whole pattern of the language, the whole shifting, she does show some concern in her brow at the time, which you would expect. So I would poke into there and say, what do you mean a cupboard? And she also tells us that Rafael became her interpreter. And then she goes and says, what I learned from this, well, wait a minute. You just said, he's telling you everything. What you heard from the others. Wait a minute. He's telling you what's happening. Why would you not understand what was happening? If you didn't, why would you turn and talk to him and ask questions and say, what exactly is going on? She's telling his tail. She starts the slow cadence. What you called walking on, I call navigating a minefield and watch, this is when you expect somebody is talking about the most emotional moments of this entire thing. Their eyes would drift to that point, but they don't, they go here. They go to the left. And I want to know why her eyes drift down into her left. And I typically associate all that with internal conversation down here, but it should be an emotional moment. Now, given this is years later and she's recalling, but she's walking through the mechanics. When she says, I understood, she engages the Duchenne grief muscle, which is okay, I got it. And then she starts to fish for resonance again and pull and say, do you understand that I don't know all this because I was not speaking Italian. I was getting it secondhand. Then finally, I'll move on to say she does at one point when she talks about another, when she's talking at 55 seconds late in this, she shows some real emotion when she's saying, when she's talking about her at the very end of this moment. She gives a lot of details in this story. And I probably just stumbled that one. I'm going to back it up. So there's real emotion at about 55 seconds when she's in the accessing queue when she talks about another, when she's the word another, watch her eyes drift down into the right when she's talking about Meredith. Then finally, there are a lot of details about how she feels in this video. Remember, we talked about, if you ask typically, and it's a bell curve because male and female are bell curves like all humans, but male stories usually include a lot of facts and female stories usually include a lot of feelings. We see that here. A lot about how she felt, how this felt to her, not the facts about Meredith had been killed. She was lying there in a puddle of blood and that's probably what you'd hear from me, not the other piece. So again, those are things to poke on. Those are things to open up the interview. And there's a lot of information in here, a lot of dense information. Scott, what do you got? Well, for me, this is a classic collection of ways to disconnect yourself and remove yourself from the situation of be it a murder, be it the gas station or whatever it is, it's a classic. And I'm going to use these in training because they're just like stacked. There's one on top of another, just boom, boom. That's all it is pretty much. She just keeps going about how confused she is. And again, the word strange keeps popping up. I don't use the word strange a whole lot, but it's got to be pretty weird for me to say, man, it was strange. That's an old, I think that's more of an old term. And then again, she talks about Raphael the Wuss, like you were saying earlier, he's relaying this information. He's relaying what they're saying to her so she can understand it. He's interpreting for interpreting for interpreting for her. And then when she starts talking about being confused, especially at the end, then she uses her head as an illustrator. She said it was, I didn't understand it was strange. And I was confused and she kicks that head out as to make dang sure that woman understands she was confused about the whole thing. Of course I wasn't at her trial, but I would bet that's one of the things that the whole thing sat on was her confusion. They built everything or a lot of it on top of, or it was one of the, the part of the foundation of her getting away with it. And I think she got in trouble again. I think maybe they pulled that back and she's guilty again, but was the part where she was confused. I think they must have built a lot on top of that. And yeah, one thing, one thing, I don't think she's guilty again. I think she was guilty again, and then she was exonerated again. I think the, the, I read the Italian court system is very different from the American system. So you're not truly innocent or guilty until you go through all your appeals. And that was part of the reason the US government got involved and said, this is double jeopardy. So I mean, there's a lot to this case that doesn't, you know, if we were talking about United States would be a different thing. It'd be easy for us all to talk to, but I do think, yeah, I don't think, I think now she is no longer guilty. And she has a podcast on Amazon. I think too. I just looked that up earlier. Scott and I were talking earlier. And we're talking about that when she was. Convicted, acquitted, convicted again. And then acquitted afterwards. Yeah. The court system is different. Sorry to step in there, but I think that's important. It'll get people animated and waste a lot of time. There you go. Okay. Mark, what do you got? No way. Mark, Mark, Mark, wait a minute. Look at the chase go because I want you to, what's the last one? Do the great rapper chase. What do you got? So we see the tongue jut there. And the tongue jut typically means either a person's worried about their story. Are you going to believe it or B, I feel great about this. I probably got away with it. Those are the two things that a tongue jut usually means. We're showing confusion about the crime. We're not hearing a story. What we're hearing is a collection of. Memorized statements. These are absolutely memorized. I would stake my reputation on it. Memorized statements to convey innocence and complete removal from the crime or anything else. And there is no emotion whatsoever here. There's something that should be sad and there's no sadness. Something should be shocking. We see surprise on the eyes. There's something that should be horrifying or scary. We're not seeing it. And again, they were talking about her throat. And not they told me, because if someone had delivered bad information, you would say, and that's when I heard, or that's when they told me not, and they were talking about it. Like I walked up on a bunch of people and there was this conversation and I overheard this, these tiny details about the crime scene. And then it's up. When I heard all of this. She says, I couldn't, and I'm thinking she's going to say, I couldn't believe it. I couldn't understand it. I couldn't understand why someone would do this. But she's all she says is, I just had trouble picturing it. I couldn't picture it. Granted, she's a visual person. We've known that from her word choice, but I couldn't understand why a person would do this. All right. I couldn't stomach the idea that this happened. I couldn't believe that this happened. Extremely unusual, not scared, not sad, not scary, not sedating, not horrifying, nothing. Just, I couldn't picture it. I had trouble picturing the crime scene. And then she says the word it seemed so. And I'm thinking. Again, she's going to say horrible, nasty, disgusting, awful, horrible. I think I said that twice. Just any other word except for strange. What have done in that place for just about any human on earth. Granted, we've, we've all done a lot of interviews. This doesn't make sense. I don't care who it is or who you're speaking to. Granted, I've seen over an hour of her baseline. Talking to people. This is not, not normal. And finally, there's some psychological distancing here before there's a tongue jut again towards the end of the video, but she doesn't want to use the person's name. And not once does she say killed or murdered. Throughout this entire interview, there's someone murdered or killed. And we see people that are guilty have a hard time doing that. And we call this either severity softening or psychological distancing. And we see that here for sure. And I'll give my opinion at the end after Mark. Lovely. So here's what I see wrapped in a blanket and stuffed in the cupboard when she talks about that. For my money. Her eyes access. Not her memory. I don't see her accessing an actual memory of that. So it'd be my conjecture around that. That she never has seen. That particular person wrapped in a blanket and stuffed in a cupboard or she's really good at putting her eyes in a different place. When she's describing that event. Now it's quite subtle. She does access the memory of something that something was told to her and then her eyes subtly shift more into the center and away from that. So it's quite subtle. But still, it was notable to me that there's a potential that she never saw that body wrapped in the blanket. Was she good at creating that idea. Then she talks about she can't even imagine it. And again, for me, her eyes do not go to memory. She does look towards imagination and tries to construct and says, I can't construct this image. I don't know what it looks like. When I would expect if she's seen that image, if she was something directly involved in that, my expectation would be is you'd see the eyes flick to actually fire that image in her mind. She should be quite a strong image if she was directly involved in that. So I would say from that, I'm not seeing a lot that suggests she has real recognition of seeing those images of a dead body wrapped in a blanket. Or she's good. Now what I do get is scared, struggling, confused, strange. Again, this idea of creating a narrative around I was scared. I was confused. I was struggling. It was strange. I can't imagine what this looks like. A really solid, strong idea there of this chaos that's going on around her. So look, I don't know what's true or false about any of this. But what I do know is a fantastic narrative around utter confusion and utter chaos going on. So it's very hard for us to be able to pinpoint what is absolutely true and absolutely false around this story and the data that she's delivering us. I've got to say I don't see any images of her actually seeing the dead body here. I've got to concur with everybody else. It's very odd that she, you know, doesn't talk about her murdered friend and name her by name. It's still just very, very, very odd what's going on here. Yeah, I'll leave it there. Yeah, I'm with you. All right. Okay. So let's go again with Chase's thing and let's all just kind of throw it around and see who is what everybody thinks percentage wise of deception or truth. Chase, why don't you go first? I will never pronounce that this young woman is guilty, but this story is not true. And I would stake my reputation on it. This is about a 10 to 15% truth rating. Okay. Greg, what do you got? Yeah. So rather than go to percentages because it's so I mean, I'm going to tell you that about I probably would be right there with you, Chase. Our percentages are always weird, but the time I didn't want to dig in was probably 15 to 20% of the time I'm listening to her. That's a bad assignment because it means, okay, maybe none of this is criminal. Maybe none of this is anything else. Maybe it's remorse and guilt. Don't know. But there are all these markers that make me want to go and bite at her heels like a little corgi. I mean, I want to go after her at every turn because she does all these things, including passive verbs and and and. So I'll say the same thing. I'll say it's 15 to 20% of the time I was like, okay, I don't want to challenge that 80% of the time I want to challenge her. That's a bad sign that this is not doesn't mean she killed anybody. It means there's something behind the story that needs a lot more work. And I understand why the Italian interrogators trained as we are smelled that and went after it. So 20 long story. All right, Mark, what do you got? Yeah, for sure. There's something else going on here. I don't know what it is, but there's something else going on. It's no story, which is my guess. It's well rehearsed by now. It's well ordered even with it. Well rehearsed and well ordered. It slips up all the time. I mean, just in that last bit, you know, wrapped in a blanket and she did. I think she does pretty well on that and then goes, you know, as I understood and underlines that thing of as I understood, it's like my lawyer or I've decided that I'm going to tell you that that's what I understood. I never saw it. I understood it to be the case. If you think I saw it, I didn't. It's some of it is so highly stressed and orchestrated that I instantly go, yeah, I want to dig in there. Like tell me more about that. Why do you want to tell me the story in this way? What are you trying to achieve by this? What do you want out of this? That's what I don't understand. I don't understand. She's not being honest right now about what she really wants out of the telling of the story. That's, that's where I come out of it. She's not saying, here's why I want to tell you this. Because some people do, they go, I want to clear my name. At the start of an interview, they go, I want to clear my name. I want this to be over. Here's the story. She doesn't, she doesn't give us any of that. I don't know why she's telling us this story and she isn't telling us why. But what is your percentage? What do you get? Yeah, I reckon, you know, the thing is, is she, she, you know, she'll get, she'll get 60% through and then hit a, hit a bump that makes me go, hang on, what are you, what's going on there? So let's say, you know, 60% truth. Wow. Okay. Yeah. Well, that's, yeah. Here's what I think. I got 80, 20. And I got 20% of being truthful or of being truthful. But I think the 80% of it as deception is the only reason that I think she's allowed to be completely honest and not worry about it and have anything to worry about, can relax and actually be yourself is like, as we've seen these videos is after they find the body. Then she's like, oh, here's what happened. And it just comes out and everything's fine. But up to that point, she's watching what she says. She's making, she's, it's a, as Mark says, you know, it's almost a play. It's almost, you know, an act for each one because she's, she's remembering what she said before. It has to be that way. It has to show, has to, since it was built on confusions, what I think in her, her big campaign of confusion, everything up to that point is, is not everything, but most of it is not true. Probably 75% of that, you know, with another little bit, 5% of truth in all that. But at the end, that's when you see the 20% of truth. I think in my part. So it's 80 before is the deception and after 20 years, you see what I'm saying. So it's mostly bull. And the rest of it is clean. I think it's, please. For me, I know we, we don't have a lot of time, but for me, it's not even about the 20%. It's about, I don't, because it's just not there. It's not like all the arrows are aligning. That's really what it boils down to. Yeah. Yeah. Okay. All right. So that's a, that's another we're good to go. So don't forget to subscribe. And we come out every Thursday. So when you look for a new episode, look for us on Thursdays. And those of you who subscribe actually, we'll see it on Wednesdays most of the time. If I get it done in time. So other than that, we good? Yeah. All right. See you guys next time. Thank you.