 Good afternoon everybody. Thank you for joining us for another edition of Condo Insider, which is put on by White Council of Community Association, also known as HCCA or Hawaii Council. So today I have the really wonderful pleasure of having with us today, Taylor Gray. He's an attorney. He is with Porter, Keokona, and Copper. So you've been working with that law firm for quite a while. I think you started out as a paralegal, right? I was as a law clerk. So when I was in law school, I found this firm and I've been here ever since. So I've been practicing condominium law with the firm since 2017. Oh, you've been there a while. You're an oldie. I also do some construction litigation, I think. Yeah. Yeah. So I'm one of the attorneys here that do construction litigation, covenant violation litigation, as well as just general business litigation. Most of the litigation that our firm handles, I would say about 99% is through condominiums or HOAs. Okay. So today we want to, I wanted to talk with or have Taylor help me to address some issues that I've been getting some phone calls or some emails and I've been noticing some weird stuff when you have overzealous either a board member or it could be a homeowner. I know I was involved in a conversation with a couple people and one of the conversations came to about how they mop the floor and it's got that gray coating stuff, which I would go, I would hate to mop that floor because that gray coating has got those grooves, right? If you make it too wet, the stuff's just going to sit in the grooves and dry and look dirty. And one had one version. The other one had another. It said that one was wrong, but our version was the correct way. And I kind of sat there and I go, at the end of the day, when they're done, is it clean? Yeah. And the person doing that, you know, having to clean that and listen to all these different people provide their input as to what is right or what is wrong. I could see how that person would probably be up to their ears and just frustrated by all this input. And I think that's overzealous owners at its finest. As long as that's, like you said, as long as it's getting done and it's clean, that's what matters. Right. So how does the board handle, whether it's either a homeowner or a board member, that takes on this added responsibility? And we want to also tie it in with employee harassment. And that could create a hostile work environment. So what is your best legal advice on how a board should handle these situations or create policies and procedures on how to address concerns regarding an employee and their work methods? Yeah. You hit the nail on the head. There needs to be some sort of policy. What we always recommend is a chain of command. When you have what's great about an association is you have so many different perspectives and so many people living in a community and why there's more condominiums per three square foot than pretty much anywhere in the United States. And with that, you're going to get thousands of different perspectives on how things are done. So with that, through the democracy democratic process, you elect a board of directors. And that board retains a property manager or a managing agent. And that managing agent helps facilitate various needs of the association. So you have like you're the person cleaning the floors and the landscaping and all that stuff. And the board of directors is the one that's supposed to be providing them with the direction based on the input of the membership. However, a lot of members will try to tell, you know, let's say they have a tree out in front of their house and they want that contractor to cut it a certain way. That's different from the uniform appearance of the rest of the project, which the board has already established. That is incredibly frustrating for contractors that have to listen to the board. And then they also have to listen to one owner saying you should mop the floor left to right. And another owner saying you should mop the floor front to back. So what I always recommend is how if there is a situation that escalates where you have a contractor that's saying, we just can't handle all this, we're getting berated by owner one and owner two and owner three, and we just can't handle it. We recommend sending a letter and just gently reminding the owner that there's a lot of input and it's there's only this a small island. So we only have so many contractors you can use before you scare enough where they don't want to come and do the work at all. So just the proper forum for that owner if they have a dispute with the contractor is to go to the meetings, go to a board meeting, talk to the board and and the owners are the eyes and ears of the project. The owners are there. And so in a in the best case scenario, that owner would provide a valuable input to the board and the board will then tell the contractor based on the input of our members, we would like to see X, Y and Z done. And then kind of brought up a good point where the contractors could it is a small island. People talk, you know, and eventually it's going to get to the point where a contractor is going to hear all this people but maybe they're willing to take off the job, but they're going to charge you premium to cover and what they're anticipating from that board, you know, so you're so the board's got to be very careful because they could either lose any ability to find someone to do that particular job, or they're going to be paying double premium, if not triple, you know, or exactly, exactly. And most of the time a gently worded letter just reminding the owner of that fact, you know, if we start if we're pestering this person, they're going to walk off the job and the next bid is going to be a lot higher. So a gentle reminder works, but in the worst case scenarios, there's times where an owner is just they they want something to be done their way or stubborn as as they not as they should be, but they're paying so much in maintenance fees. So they expect world class service, and they want something to be done yesterday. And if they are not doing it to their standards, to which they believe they're paying a premium for, it's hard, it's hard for these owners not to take something personally. So at that point, we got these troubled owners that you have to then send additional letters and even rent so fines say, you know, this contractor can't be doing their job effectively, if they're worried or looking over their shoulder, wondering what you're going to come and berate. So at that point, it's you have to then look out for the wellbeing of the project and make sure you can keep this contractor and not interfere with their ability to do their job. Right. Because that could be the contractor or the employee. And like in landscaping, you know, just like mopping and people have different ways. And so I try to tell people when they kind of complain to me, I try to tell them, I said, well, maybe instead of commenting or like, why are you doing it that way? Which could be very, it could be deemed as being intimidating or offensive to the guy, the person performing the work. Why don't you ask them a question first? Like, wow, or say, well, wow, that looks kind of interesting and trying to start up a conversation. Because there was one incident where people were complaining about how they trimmed a certain hedge. And some people wanted to look full from the inside out. And they actually explained to me, when they don't trim it that way, then the chickens nest on the branches inside. I go, good point. Yeah, it's a utility. Yep, exactly. You know, so you got to find out the why's, you know, it's why they're to do it a certain, because there could be a specific reason why, you know, like, even when it comes to painting a building, there's certain colors that fade faster than others. So, you know, I always encourage people to do a sample on the, like, the west side of the buildings will fade a lot faster than probably the morning sun of the building. So they should really try to put, you know, paint a good portion just to see how long it will last, you know, and or how fast it'll fade, things of that nature, you know. But I've told you, I go, after you kind of explain it, people kind of get that aha moment. And then they're like, oh, did it know that, you know, and that kind of stuff, which is encouraging. One of the other things I get comments about is, you know, they brought on somebody new and you know how resident managers, when they come in, sometimes they're taking over a project after there's been no resident manager or anybody on site for a couple of months, because finding a resident manager or even a an offsite person can take a couple of months. And so, so he's got a lot of stuff to catch up on, not only just the office stuff, but the outside duties that they need to take care of, you know, and it takes time, but when you move into a house, it's not instantaneous that you can put everything back together the way you, you know, so I have told some people, I said, you should probably make a list for the person of the priorities. Yes. And I said, you should probably try to post it on the bulletin board, maybe, you know, so everybody kind of gets an idea that, hey, we've made these the priorities to get done. And then off the side with with the employee or contractor, let him know what the timeline is, you know, because I know some boards at the end of the year, they put accomplishments for the previous year and what they want to do for the next year. Yeah. Yeah. And let's everybody know what's going on, you know, which I think is just awesome when they do that. It's transparent. There's goals and the resident manager or whatever the resident manager, site manager, whatever contractor is responsible for handling that specific detail knows what their objectives are, and if they've been hitting those punch list items. So if they have, if they have more things to do than have completed, maybe the, maybe the owners, those overzealous owners have reason to complain. And maybe it's time to think about hiring a different contractor to perform those services. Yeah, we have to make sure the list is reasonable. Exactly. It could be accomplished, you know, they have to be fair to that employee or that contractor. And, you know, they could be, you know, in stages like for the next three months we're going to do this, or at the end of the year we hope to have this one, one or two issues completed because it could take six months or eight months just to even get it done, because there's little bits and pieces, right, to get it done. And that's why it's important for those directives to be coming from the board. So it's, you know, a lot of owners, they have to be reminded of this chain of command, in a sense, because the ones that sign that the checks at the end of the day is going to be the board, and the property manager, site manager all report to the board. And that way you can keep an accurate detailed list of accomplishments and or goals. If you have a million different owners, there's going to be a million different priorities, and it's going to drive those contractors crazy. And I have so many projects where they run out of contractors. The word gets around where they, especially like even property managers, you have some troubled owners that you, they just can't control themselves. And you'll eventually, we only have so many property management firms in Hawaii. And you get through, you run through the gambit and at the very end of the day, you're self-managed. So you're not even in a worse situation. You don't have professional help. And the board has to work harder, just because one owner felt that it was their cool honor or their entitlement, that they can tell these contractors what to do. Yeah. And, you know, over time, like there was one condo, they were looking for, you know, shopping route for a new management company. And they were getting some bids and they're like, oh man, they're like triple what we pay now. Like, well, how long have you had that kind of contract that you have now? Well, it's beyond 10 years. So I'm like, hello, you're lucky you're getting that same price. Maybe you should give them a little bit of slack because you're expecting this much. But, you know, that contract was 10 years ago, and you probably didn't have as much responsibilities before managing agent to do, you know, and you probably had a better site manager that took a lot of responsibilities that now you're expecting the property manager to do, you know. And then the light bulb, I saw the light bulb, we're talking on the phone, but I literally saw the light bulb comes through the phone, you know. And again, too, with contractors, if you have a problem board and the word gets around, your management fee could also be greater than some other people for synthesized building. You're sitting duck, they know that you're a problem building and you're going to have you have a lot of characters, and you can't control those characters. And fortunately, that's what increases everyone's maintenance fees, those premiums, just because a few owners want something to be done their way, and not engage in a productive discussion at a board meeting, where things can actually be effectuated. And when you just yell at a contractor, the contractor knows where they're getting paid. And they're not dummies, they know it's not you, it's the board. So it's just going to create dissension and it's going to lead to an unfortunate divorce, or they're going to make you pay for it. No one takes verbal abuse for free. Right, yeah. And also, you know, that verbal abuse, I mean, doesn't that go into the same light of harassment, right? Yeah, especially if you have a site, the association has employees. And the association's board has a responsibility to make sure that their employees are free from a hostile work environment. And one of the most common things we see are owners yelling at like, like you're mopping the floor example, maybe, you know, they weren't yelling about it. But if somebody doesn't clean something right away, or they see someone sitting, you know, in their golf cart on their phone, and they harass them for not working, and then they, you know, make a complaint that they can't work publicly, the board is on the hook for any lawsuits for a hostile work environment. So at that point, what we recommend is immediately sending a letter to that owner, say, you might not know, you might just be asking this person, why aren't they, you know, there's a mess right there, there's a bunch of leaves that you aren't picking up, why are you just sitting on your coley and not doing something about it. But by you doing that, you're not that person's boss. And if you do that constantly, you're you're the board is now responsible if that person takes workers comp for a mental for mental reasons. Or if that person sues, the board is on the hook for that. And they could even make a complaint to the state. And that could be investigated. And now you're, now you're, yeah, now you're even more trouble. So at that point, it's you have to, you have the nid that in the bud, and you have to tell that owner, you got to stop talking to this person, because we have to provide this person a safe space. Yeah. Let's go back to the property manager. Because I know I have, I heard one property man said, everything comes through me. And I go, like, are you sharing you want that all that? But there has to be a balance of, of, they've taken on all this stuff. And I'm like, now you're going to have all these owners calling you and, you know, berating you about this berating you about that, you know, and eventually any night, you know, they have a responsibility to protect the board because that's who they work for. But there has to be a balance of what's reasonable. And what's unreasonable. And, and also telling the board, hey, you know, this is a valid complaint or value valid issue that we need to address. So why is the employee doing this, this and this, you know, because complaints not always are negative. Sometimes they are positive, they can lead to some positive things or something that the board wasn't even aware of. So they have to go be approachable with open eyes, not just, hey, another homeowner calling, you know. Yeah. And that's a great point. You, there's so many issues that stem from that point. There's a balancing test that also needs to be done because they have their representatives of the board. And the owners have to contact someone when they have complaints, like you're saying, meritorious complaints. And so we always advise general managers, property managers, you have that thick scan to be in this job, you don't have to take harassment. But you have to know that there's going to be complaints, there's going to be constructive criticism. And it's not necessarily indicative of your work, or it's not targeted against you individually. It's how tech, how can the association be better? And he has having that big skin, you can't have every criticism just eat at you and think that it creates a hostile work environment. So that's one part of the balancing test. The other part is these owners have, you know, their first amendment three of them speech. So unless there's something that is threatening or something that arises, usually the hostile work environment names don't are not really directed at property managers or agents, it's mostly employees. So the general managers say you have to have a thick skin, but your employees that are mad, you know, manning the front desk or that are doing landscaping from here or there that are employed by the association, those owners have no business talking to it. But owners, you know, and, you know, or if they want it or not necessarily have no business talking to them, but they don't have any business critiquing them or questioning what wire, you know, their methods where they have those concerns, they bring it to the supervisor, the general manager or the site manager. So that's the person that we direct this, you know, you have to have that thicker skin so that these complaints can be brought to the proper person to make the implement the changes, the board of directors. If you just instantly think that everything is a criticism of your job, and you never bring that to the board, that's where we find these owners are very frustrated, because they are trying to bring their concerns to somebody. And it's just being, it's being kicked down the road or it's being thrown in the trash can and it's never brought to the proper party. I think I saw someone's website. I think it was an HOA website where they had emails to address complaints or concerns. So I'm having to pick up the phone and, you know, leave a voice message. At least there's an email. And sometimes that might be better than can you just call me, you know, because when you call your emotions take over versus if you're having to sit and write it, you know. Yeah, you're detached a bit having to actually think, type, you know, you always have those keyboard warriors, but having to actually go and type your concerns and send it, you know, well, maybe it's not that big of a deal. I'll let it, I'll sleep on it. And then, okay, yeah, I was overreacting. I had a bad day at work. I shouldn't be taking this out on, you know, poor whoever that's just trying to do their job. See, I think that's a great idea. Yeah, and sometimes that's even better than doing a suggestion box. You know, I mean, I go just email them, you know. I know sometimes I tell people, I go, yeah, I get irritated about something and I send an email, but I don't click send, I wait. I go take a break and then come back and read it again. Oh, and our job at everything is always heated with opposing councils and there's a lot of emails that a lot of a lot of times I've written things that I slept on and ever sent them. So very thankful that email exists, right? Yeah, exactly. But you got your frustration out. Yeah. Yeah, catharsis. Yeah, yeah. So, so you're going to be one of our speakers on our May 25th. It's a Saturday. And it's a half day at a Welcome Country Club. And we're going to, it's also going to be with Attorney Nalon. And we have Lori Sides with the DCC condo specialist. She's been there for quite a long time. And we're really going to talk about board of directors, duties and responsibilities, also owners duties and responsibilities. And we're going to have a handout that that's going to incorporate a lot of the DCC, you know, their little handouts, it's going to be like on a poster size that hopefully people can post it where they in their office and then there's going to be another version where it could be posted on their bulletin board. So the owners know because one of the big questions I get from people is from some board members, they go, we always get asked, like, what do you guys do? And I can vary from project to project because there's not a lot of consistency with how directors operate, unfortunately. And I think what the DCC is doing with working with the HCCA to make this kind of common knowledge will hopefully help bring a uniform approach and educate everyone as to how you should act as a board of director. And as an owner, what is your responsibility and how she operate and conduct yourself in a community living situation? Right, because as they say, when you're in the board meeting, you're a board member. But once you leave that, your unit order 101, you no longer get the board hat on. Oh, and that's a great point too. One of the things we get a lot with vendors, planning or resident managers complaining is when these directors think that they are the air supreme, or that they that they are directors outside of board meetings that they can go up to an employee and say, well, I'm a director. I want you to do X, Y and Z this way. And they don't understand. And it's a hard concept to kind of to comprehend is that you have a hat, you know, when you're in that meeting, wearing your director hat. But when you're outside, you're an owner. And a lot of times these vendors don't know the difference that you're not wearing your board of director T shirt on to let them know that you have the power as a board member to actually tell them what they can and cannot do. So they might feel insecure and or a little bit skeptical of why you're telling them what to do. And that's not the direction that they got from the board majority. And that can get people in trouble. And like I've told some people, when we're talking like the finances, I said, your condo is a business. You're handling money. So that means it's a business entity. And, um, and Susavio also said the same thing on that PBS series that she did a couple weeks ago, I'm like, Oh, yeah. You know, so when you're working in a business environment, you're not there 24 seven. So it goes to saying, you know, that, yeah, you're a board member when you're in that meeting, but you're not 24 seven, there's only select few, which the government has as declared as being essential, right? But board directors are not essential, you know. Um, you know, so really, when you go up to your unit, you're just a unit and a unit over just like my neighbor next door, you know, um, so people have to realize I remember, um, way back when I'd be coming home, you know, kind of tired and just want to take off my clothes and put, you know, something comfortable on, get off the pantyhose and the heels, you know, and there'd be somebody waiting to ask me a question. I'm like, Oh, my God, I should have went ahead and drink. Yeah. And, and that can get the, that can get the association in trouble. Um, if you say something, not saying you would, because you know your stuff, but if you are an individual owner and you make a representation and that person believes that you're on the, you're making that representation on behalf of the board, you're now binding the board to something that was never actually voted on. And you could the association could get sued based on, you know, what one director is saying outside of a board meeting, a board meeting that's not reflected in the minutes. You know, we've had situations where, um, in Waikiki, they have a short term vacation rental dance, um, in the specific project. And one owner says, Ah, no one enforces it. You can go ahead and do it. And that person takes that as gospel because that's the vice president of the board saying, well, we haven't enforced it in a while. And then when they do enforce it, they're saying, but that person told me I can do it. And they have detrimentally relied on the same thing with contractors all the time. They tell them, Hey, you can skip this floor, just focus on this one. And then the owners on that floor are saying, what the heck? We didn't want you, what are you going to come back down here? When are you going to come back down here? I said, Oh, well, the board for told us we didn't have to. And that wasn't a director from the old board. That's just one board member that improperly said something outside of a meeting. So that's why we always say, make sure you know what hat you're wearing. Yeah. And exactly. Same with emails outside of a board meeting. We're going to have to be doing some continuous training on that because it's continuous. I always get that. Are they not supposed to be doing that outside of the board? I go, Yeah, here's the attachments. You know, here's the handouts that we did with DCCA. So go to it. And as a litigation attorney, I see that all the time. Why are you putting these things in an email? Oh, it's all disclosed. This was an executive session where it's supposed to be. But now you guys discussed a whole bunch of improper things via email. And that's all discoverable. And now it's out in the ether. Everybody knows about it. And that could all have been avoided. Add you just followed the proper procedures. Right. Okay. So we're nearing our end. So Tater, I really want to thank you. This was enjoyable. Very informative. I'm really looking forward to the May event. And so it's going to be morning. I think it opens at 11, or no, eight o'clock. And there's going to be a buffet breakfast for everybody. And so we'll hope nobody falls asleep during, you know, it eats too much. You know, but I'm really looking forward to it. I'm really looking forward to this one. The Jews and his abilities. He is well. And I appreciate being here and at this topic. It's something that we see all the time. And I hope to provide a little bit more context and information to those directors as well as residents that are that are looking to yell at their next veteran. Yeah, I'm looking forward to you because you took over most of Larisse condos. Yes, you will, you know, she had so many and she's been an estate one-hour industry for so long. It's so much work for everyone to handle. So thankfully, my partners have been able to take some of that load off. But yeah, as the newest partner of the firm, I've been having to impart a lot of those. Yeah. Give it to him. He's a newbie. Exactly. Could be to my basis. Yeah. Okay. Thank you so much. And I look forward to working with you on the May seminar as well as I think our board of director training as well, I think. Yes. Yes. Okay. Great. So everybody tune in. Go to HawaiiCouncil.org. Register for our May 25th seminar. It's going to be a half a day and we're going to stop with a buffet breakfast in the morning and get a program going. So thank you, Taylor. I look forward to it. Thank you so much. Thank you. If you liked this show, why don't you give us a like or subscribe to our channel? Thanks so much.