 Tim Bigmore, thanks so much for joining us on 575 ounces. These guys have, of course, authored the book Cricket 2.0. Now, before, of course, I start picking your brains as far as the 2020 format is concerned. We're actually coming together on a day, which is the 18th of April, which is when the first game of the IPL took place. When Brendan McCullum went berserk and you've, of course, written about it in your book, you've spoken to McCullum as well and we'll talk about that. But honest confession here being this, that for the last five years, prior to going freelance, I used to work for this channel called Star Sports. I'm pretty sure you guys know about it. They cover all the cricket in India. And I've always been that guy who never used to really follow cricket prior to that, right? I was the guy who used to love football. So everything that's wrong with Indian sport for me was with cricket because they had all the riches and they were taking everything. That's the general consensus here. But then suddenly came the opportunity to do India cricket. And if you're a broadcaster, you don't say no to that because you know the scale at which you're going. And I started doing it. And eventually started doing test cricket, ODA cricket and I could pick it up a little bit. I was hosting shows with experts, of course with former players and they pretty much realized that this guy doesn't understand the game. And then came 2020. And I swear I kid you not man. As soon as the game started, I couldn't understand anything. Everything was going over my head. It was just so much of it was going on. And I was just, I was pretty much like a proxy cricket anchor. I was acting on air like I knew everything what I was talking about. I could not pick up a single thing of what was going on on the field. And eventually I read your book right now and you know, you simplified it in a way of how 2020 cricket is played. And I started understanding the game a lot more. I mean, I had started picking it up because eventually when you start doing games, thinking fast, you do pick up things, you know. And so I must thank you for that firstly. That if I do a 2020 show now, I can understand what's going on. But can I just ask you guys and either of you, was that one of the reasons why you rocked cricket 2.0? Is there a general consensus that while the public likes the obvious, the six, the four, the target, the chasing, the star, they don't really understand the finer nuances of the game and how different it is from 50 overs and test cricket? Yeah, absolutely. So I think there's almost like a secret language in T20. And it's been like indecipherable for lots of people and almost like what the media says about T20 compared to what happens in reality is more different than what it's true for ODIs and test cricket. So people like to sort of simplify and say it's hitting giggle, it's about just trying to smash the ball out the ground. And then we ignore what's actually really going on. And what we found is we almost wanted to read a book that told us this and we couldn't really find it. So we thought we'd try and write it ourselves. So we've given it our best shot basically. And Freddie, for someone like you who loves the stats, it's a match made in heaven, 2020 cricket and stats. Yeah, yeah, exactly. I mean, I sort of was led to working for CrickViz and working in and in and around numbers due to T20 because I took an interest in T20. And as you said, without the numbers, it's quite difficult to sometimes sort of grasp what's going on. There are some key numbers you need to get your head round. And that led me to working in the field I do now. And that's massively helped me understand it. And throughout the book, there are a lot of numbers, or not a lot of numbers, but we include the important numbers I think that sort of help break down the story and how the game played. Because as you said, there's so much going on in the game which is when sometimes it's easy to miss the sort of stories and why things are happening. But certainly using numbers helps you get to the bottom of that. Again, honest confession. It feels like an intervention for me right now because I've used Freddie Byles tweets, which come on CrickViz and Twitter. And whenever I'm talking to someone, I said, you know, the ball was deviating this much. Yeah, oh shit, that's not bad. But honestly, let's start with the IPL because that's the focus here. Guys, how big a part has the IPL played in 2020 cricket in getting to where it is? Because your focus is not just on the IPL, but it's of course on the impact of 2020 cricket. But how big a part has the IPL played in that? Yeah, I think it's like our chapter one is, as you said, it's on Brennan McCullum, his 15A. And that amazing thing is sort of changes cricket forever. But the interesting thing is that happens five years after T20 starts. So I think we have to sort of say, that 0-3 to 0-8 is a sort of very much the years of T20, just dipping its feet in the water a little bit. And then it's from the IPL that it gets serious. And I suppose it begins at series from 0-8, but then it gets to a new level, probably about 2011, 2012. And then I think the international game actually reached a new level in the last T20 World Cup in 2016, that was a massive tournament in India. And obviously the West Indies victory, it seemed to sort of embody where the game was up and just how seriously it was being taken. So I think, yeah, that we can very much do before IPL and after IPL in terms of the evolution of the T20 game. When the first season of the IPL took place, I remember, and my elder brother, he was an actor at the time. And so he was called in to do the hosting for the shows. There was Ajay Jadeja, there was Sameer Kochir, and there was my elder brother. And I can tell you, because he was telling me, no one in broadcast knew exactly what was going on. They didn't know what to look after, they didn't know what to look at. It was just, oh, now here's the fourth package, here's the sixth package, and my brother's calling me up and telling me, look what's going on. I said, even I can't understand a thing that was going on. Because people are too confined by the entire spectacle that's coming around with the game. Freddie, when do you suppose that shift came when you started focusing more on the stats, on the numbers, and the shots and everything? I mean, I think it's interesting that in the early years of the IPL, particularly in the first season, some of the teams were assigned icon players based on where they were from. So, Dravid was assigned to Bangalore, and Sandovalka was assigned to Mumbai. And obviously, they were fantastic players, but they were great players who had made their names in Test and ODI cricket rather than in T20. I think between them, they had six appearances in T20s when the first IPL happened. So at the beginning of T20, it was very much of leaning on longer formats of the game for its sort of status and its QDOS. But it took a couple of years, two or three years of the IPL, and that began to change. Interesting, Rangestan Royals, who spent the least money in their first auction and probably with the least sort of glamour aside, obviously went on to win the title. Then the following year, Deccan Chargers, who probably built one of the best squads in the early seasons, built largely around quite dynamic modern players rather than older players. And actually, VVS Lacksman was meant to be an icon player for them and turned it down. So it sort of gave them more money to spend on the guy like Andrew Simons and Rohit Sharma, these guys who are sort of more modern players. And after those two teams won the title, I think the other team started looking at them and thinking, yeah, hang on, we can't just buy players who are good at test cricket. We have to buy players who are good for T20. And there's a moment in 2011, which we talked about in the book, which is quite a sort of symbolic, when Sarah of Ganguly was an icon player for KKR. But after three years of KKR struggling, they were the only team who hadn't reached the playoffs. They decided to release Ganguly. And obviously, Ganguly is one of Kolkata's favourite sons. And then that was controversial decision, but it ultimately was proved to be the right decision because KKR then went on an era of dominance. And essentially, yeah, to answer your question in a long roundabout way, I think three or four years of the IPL, after that point, most teams started recognising that they need to take it seriously and sort of treat it differently to test cricket to succeed. And I think another step in that journey happens in three years ago in the auction, when for the first time we get players from Afghanistan being bought and there's a real, there's a bidding war for Rashid Khan, Muhammad Nabil, especially for Rashid Khan. And obviously these are guys that become, at the moment, at the time, they can't even play test cricket. But, you know, IPL scouts have looked to them playing actually in a lower level of games and they recognise their skills are so good they'll be able to make the step up so that we see the evolution of scouting. Kolkata being very good at this. They scouted from local leagues, so have Chennai. So you get a kind of a scouting system and you get the recognition that T20 skills are completely different, even from ODI skills that learn from test cricket skills. You specified in your book how Chennai, of course, you wrote that chapter of RCB versus Chennai and how Chennai had the benefit of running a cricket team, which is something like what Robert and all had mentioned to you in the book and saying, and how that helped, you know, once you had the team going in the IPL, but you reckon the real trail basers in the IPL and sort of accepting 2020 and approaching 2020 is KKR, post-Wenki Mysore and doing that dropping Ganguly bit, moving on from there? Yeah, I think that is a seven-on-moment because KKR, they were the very, very worst team with a lot in the first three seasons and their approach to the auction, you know, the idea is you would, you know, lots of teams were trying to ping onto their, the players that the fans, you know, were most drawn to those popular players, you know, seems that right thing to do. But KKR, they go into the auction, they say, we're not gonna retain anyone before the auction, so they start with a blank stage. Basically, so we failed before, so we started with a blank page and we're going again. And then what they do over the next few seasons, with their sort of scouting network, they use AR Srikanth, who's now, yeah, there's a crucial, crucial figure for them. And they- Doesn't smile too often, by the way. Yeah, but he's actually a lot to smile about, but he's always panicking his next move, but they're very effective at scouting, so, you know, they get people like Sunil and Ryan, Andre Russell, they- Gashvindra as well with Kaldid Yadav, you know, a crucial player, and he's actually seen by Srikanth, and he sends a text to Trevor Bayes, who's a coach at the time, and then they lead them to sign him. So they have a kind of a much more rounded approach to signing players, and then that turn around. So they go from being hopeless in the first three years to winning the league in 2012 and 14, and that really, that shows what's possible if you use the numbers, you know, you talk to Venki Mysore, and he's very open and almost very proud that he relies on numbers a lot. It's not the only thing, but he says, yeah, your gut instinct is probably going to be wrong more than your numbers are, so you try and use numbers in a clever way, and that is, I think that's a catalyst to a next era of growth, and if you flip it the other way, we talk about our chapter, we're probably not going to be popular in Bangalore, but that's a different matter, but our chapter where we look at Chennai be Bangalore, I mean, one of the things about Bangalore, we talked to Brendan McCullough and he says, there's a lot of white noise in Bangalore, there's a lot going on, it's all kind of confusing, and they gravitate towards signing the best batsman, you know, the Galacticos, you know, they've got Viracoli, AB de Villiers, Chris Gale, Shane Watson, you know, the list goes on, and these are all the sort of superstar names, but they just don't sign enough good bowlers, and without good bowlers, you can't win in T20, so they're an example of actually a team that probably haven't evolved their approach, they've almost stuck with the approach in the first year as some of the most glamorous players, see where that leads you, and that's been for them a bit of a road to nowhere, they still haven't won a title, of course. Freddie, in terms of numbers, is there that one season for you that sort of tells you, you know, people have started understanding the game a little more, when you analyse numbers season on, 2008 to now, present day? Probably not a single season, as Tim says, the moment when KKR start adopting days after the auction is significant, but I think probably broadly speaking, as the origins of T20 originally were very much about sort of entertainment and fun and sixes, it probably about halfway through the most recent decades, so around 2014, 2015, there was a bit of a wave, so this is probably a couple of years after KKR adopted a more rigorous auction approach, that then sort of begun to be applied on a broader level, so the media, or all the other teams, and the media more generally have got a lot of catching up to do in terms of where the teams are at, and the teams themselves have got a lot of evolution still to go, but we are now beginning to head in the right direction, people like myself and Tim, and then there are quite a few other people as well, who are prioritising T20 and seeking to understand it, I think that that, as a whole, is sort of pushing the discourse forward, and 2016 World Cup, Tim mentioned was a symbolic moment, I think that was the first World Cup that was taken very seriously, there was a lot of analysis and shows around, obviously Star always do hours of build up. Tell me about it, man, I was just nodding to all the shows. More and more, getting stuck into the numbers and trying to sort of break down the game in the same way that teams do, and as a result, I think understanding of the T20 format is now picking up some pace. And that- Sorry, just saying that the World Cup, it also showed the different styles of playing T20, so we saw the West Indies, their styles, we don't care about number of dot balls, because we were back ourselves to hit more sixes than anyone else, and we had that amazing game that won Katie in the semifinal, instead, it was just a remarkable game, because India, with a very kind of, some ways an old school approach, that they were scoring off every ball, scoring lots of twos, it was a very, it was what we would think of as sort of smart cricket in the kind of, from a one international point of view, you have very few dot balls, you run very quickly, et cetera, and the West Indies had over twice as many balls they didn't score a run from, so that seems like they're wasting a lot of balls, but they hit so many sixes, they chased that, India got 192, and West Indies win pretty easy in the end, and that showed, that was such a, so both teams have scored 190, but they've done it in completely in different ways, and that showed the sort of different strategies in T20, and it's a little bit like we see in football, there's different ways to skin a cat, and we've been to get an appreciation of that. It's been bringing up bad memories there. Yeah, I found them by in Bangalore now. Half the people have already switched off from the show by the way right now, so only five more people are watching it probably after that, but my point being, where do you stand on this debate? Because this debate has happened off camera with a lot of people, A, using stats and numbers, but do you find the balance between sporting excellence and talent, and how do the two merge, and do some teams go and access as far as the stats and numbers are concerned? Yeah, for me, and I've done some work with some teams and coaches around the world, you can never be entirely led by the numbers, it's, whilst I believe in them a lot, it's silly to just completely follow what they say because there are always caveats and nuance to the numbers, and there are other things you've got to consider, not least how a person fits into the dressing room, which as some coaches have joked to me before, we need to call them in a spreadsheet for that, but we can't quite measure it yet, but maybe in years to come we will be able to, but is a bloke a good guy or not? It's not something we can measure yet, but that's the kind of thing, you do have to consider it, a team dynamic, age, fitness, where they've performed, and to a degree we can measure these things, but there are some things that you're never quite gonna be able to grasp, and that's why ultimately I think the best combination is using the numbers, and then using the sort of cricket expertise of the coaches and the general managers to form a synergy of those two things which produces ultimately, right, this is a list of the best players according to the numbers, but there are five guys here that we're gonna strike out for whatever reason, and this is who we're going for, and that's the kind of dynamic I think you've got to try and create, and it's something that Venki speaks about in the book and other teams that have been successful do the same, you know, it's not complete reliance on numbers, but it's, you lean on them for help, you can't watch every game, and you can't understand every game inside out, so the numbers are there to help illuminate the stuff that you can't see, I suppose. So then Tim, isn't it really strange that for a country that gave birth to the IPL, which is the strongest domestic T20 league in the world, for large parts of their approach to international cricket, it was very un-T20-like, and it's only in these last couple of months that they've decided to change that approach. Yeah, there's a real irony here that India won one T20 World Cup, and that was before the IPL was created in 2007, which was almost an accidental victory, you know, they sort of picked their kids and it worked really well. Yeah, there's something, I mean, we talk about in the book when you're batting different approaches and you see some teams, they overvalue their wickets, so they almost haven't trained themselves out of the long performance of the game, so they placed too much still on their wickets, and we probably saw that, again, I keep talking about that semi-final last World Cup, because it was just such a seminal game in T20's evolution, and it showed that actually hitting sixes, especially on good batting wickets, you can't do that so-so variable. So I think India's approach, that they've needed to shift a little bit away from trying to score off every ball, to trying to accept maybe a few more dot balls when they score some more banners instead. I think one of the difficulties, maybe for India, and for a lot of teams in T20's, in domestic T20 cricket, India's best batsman, and even in the IPL, they tend to bat in the top three or four in the order, but obviously in South cricket, you need a good five, six, seven as well, and that's been harder for them to develop that. But we see now- They've got one, they just don't pick him. Rishabh Panth is one of the best T20 players in the world. That is true. I don't open that debate up pretty yet. That debate's been going on for 10 years now, teams like that at least, wherever you go. Has Rishabh Panth had a can of Coke? Yes, let's debate about it now. I mean, that's the sort of scene that's going on here in India right now. Sorry, Tim. But it is actually crazy that a player like Rishabh Panth is not on their team, and we're seeing a really, an amazing young generation of Indian talent coming through, and how well India use them will determine how successful they are in the years to come. But I think it feels like, we probably have a World Cup, T20 World Cup this year, in Australia and next year in India, obviously depending on a lot of things, but those two World Cups, India certainly have a very good chance of victory in one of them. And that would be kind of the bitch of the IPL kids. It would be a, it would be a nice extra chapter in our book as well. Yeah, but isn't it strange that you talk about Rishabh Panth, and his obvious backing talents in the format is pretty clear for everyone to see what he does with Delhi Capitals. He can change the game like this as soon as he comes in. And here we are still debating that there is, he's not a good enough ticket keeper, so you've got a someone like Akhil Rahul who gives you solidity up top and he can do makeshift keeping and that's keeping someone like Rishabh Panth out. Well, there's no reason that they both can't play. I mean, one of them can keep and one of them can just be in the field. And I think it will, I think for me, Pamp has been mismanaged so far by India but his talent will out ultimately. He is one of the best players in the IPL which is the highest standard T20 comp in the world. There's only so long that India can keep him out of the side. It'll be interesting to see whether he makes it to the World Cup this year, but no, I see him being a part of their future for years to come once he does finally establish himself, which will happen. He's having to fight, moving in and out of the team, up and down the order with the gloves, without the gloves. But yeah, it's interesting. It'll be a really interesting thing to see how in the next couple of years actually, these young Indian players sort of step out of the shadows of Rohit, of Virat, of Dhoni as well. Those guys are going to move on and we're going to then move into the generation of players such as Shaw and Pan and Aya and Kishan who have grown up with the IPL in a way that Kohli, while still being a sort of new gen player, hasn't quite, he would have grown up watching Tendulkar. These guys have grown up watching Kohli play in the IPL and I think there's a slight difference there. And we will see that when India do sort of fully embrace this new generation, it's going to be very exciting. With Kohli, you had that one off season where he got to 900 odd, which was a bit of an anomaly and you didn't see that maybe not touching 600, 700, doing justice to his talent. You said that that's one of the reasons. Well, I think he's sort of a very good player in T20, very good IPL player, but one of our arguments is that, I need to be careful about my words, my choice of words. Might lose the last three viewers as well. Yeah, yeah, yeah, but one of our arguments about Bangalore, why they're not successful, sometimes they value their wickets a bit too highly. So you get situations where they maybe end up on a score of 160 for four, when they could have gone harder and got 175 to six or seven or something. I think obviously there's so much that goes on with him and it's, he's obviously bouncing, the hopes of a billion people and so on. But I think at times, he's maybe started things a little bit too slowly and that's put too much pressure on other batsmen. I think that's what I can tell you. It's interesting you say that because if you look actually, his numbers quite closely in the last couple of years, it does, there does appear to have been a recognition of that. He is trying to up his yalla game and up his speed to start. And we've seen that actually, which is interesting because a player, you know, 2016, as you said, he's scored 900 runs in the season. You'd think he doesn't need to change anything about his game, but actually what's interesting about T20 is you can't just measure success in the number of volume of runs. It's about the rate at which you score them. And he has begun to evolve his game. And he still is one of the best T20 players in the world, but it's not quite the same as in ODI and TES, where it's like, well, yeah, he's definitely in the top two or three. He's probably in a bracket below in T20 because he doesn't quite have the power of the guys like Russell or Warner or Devilleas. But no, he's still fantastic and I'm not gonna quite put my neck on the line like him. No, I'll tell you what, I'll tell you what. If we lost all our viewers there, this is the time we're gonna get everyone back in double because we're now gonna talk about MS Dhoni and praise for MS Dhoni and Chennai Super Kings. Why have they been so successful in the IPL and beyond the obvious? Once you guys did your research, of course. Sure, yeah, well, I mean, there are a number of standout things to do with them. Some of them are sort of structural and some are to do with Dhoni himself and Dhoni's been a huge figure for Chennai. A number of things, they've retained a solid core of players throughout their history. They've retained a solid domestic core and that is so important in the IPL. If you can get six or seven Indians you can come to rely on and then you just basically mix and match the overseas guys over time, you're far better placed to succeed because the domestic talent pool is shallower than the overseas, you know, in the overseas you've got all the players in the rest of the world to choose from. You're gonna end up getting good overseas players but there are only so many good Indian players to get and Chennai were quite, to a degree, quite lucky but also quite smart early on and they got a core of players. Just off the top of my head, you had Rainer, Jadejo, who came a bit later, Ashwin, Dhoni, Murli Vijay, even Badranath, these guys who essentially were part of their core for a number of years and then they had, as I said, these overseas guys coming in and out. So that was central to their success. They also built a team that could succeed at home. They exploited home advantage, that's massive in C20, play half your games at home. If you can win, you know, even five or six of those seven, you're well on the way to the playoffs and Chennai, their home ground is massively favored. Spin bowlers and they knew that, recognized that and always have built a very strong spin attack. So that's the structural things. And then yes, there's Dhoni, who as a leader and as someone who reads the game is second to none. He's without a doubt, T20's greatest ever captain. We talk about the rise of analytics. Dhoni doesn't need an analyst. He does these things in his head and it is amazing. He has a remarkable feel for the game. A gut instinct. Sometimes they'll go against, his gut instincts will go against the numbers and they won't always work but his track record across 10 years is captaining Chennai's phenomenal. And yeah, whilst other captains might lean on an analyst to say, who should I bowl now? More often than not, Dhoni has just known it based on his feel of the game. And that comes from playing a lot of cricket. You know, he must have played, played hundreds and hundreds of T20s in pressure environments. And I think, you know, that ultimately take you, you can take learnings from that and he can read the game extremely well. And we've seen that across the years for Chennai. So then Tim taking it forward because over the week, we were having this debate. No World T20, no IPL is that the end of MS Dhoni in India colors. And then we were, of course, debating to take that conversation forward. How long do you see him playing in the IPL? And a majority of the people are saying, two, three years. My point being that once Dhoni does decide to call it a day from cricket altogether, you suppose a full overhaul of that CSK squad will be needed. Just keep in mind the age of that squad. And that could be certainly that a crucial point for that team. Yeah, so the ageing point you make is very interesting because you people won the initial things with T20 came around. Everyone says it's going to be a young person's game on to be young dynamic. But with Chennai, even the West Indies, they're going the other way. They've got a very experienced team and actually we find it experienced teams do so, so well in T20 because experience of dealing with situations, experience of pressure is so, so valuable, keeping you cool. And we see that with the Chennai team, you know, people were laughing at how old they were in the auction a couple of years ago because they signed, you know, Dhoni, Dwayne Braver, lots of older guys, you know, North of 35, they were a dad's army, they were called, but they went on, they won the IPL 2018, they lost by one run the final last season. So experience is so, so valuable, I think. But you lose a player like Dhoni who has really defined their team the whole way through, that will leave a massive hole. And they might think, you know, how can they tinker things a little bit? And you need to, one of the things about T20 that we talk about in the book a lot, you always need to evolve. It's really if you're not moving forward, you're going backwards. So we see some very good players and they just cannot, and they just do not keep evolving their skills and they get that behind. So there's Joe Wooten, for example, who I think has all the tools to be a good T20 player. He's played so well in the World Cup four years ago. He's barely played since then. And when he has played, he's really, really struggled because basically the game's evolved and he hasn't evolved with it. So that will be true for Chennai, that would be true for everyone. You have to keep on evolving. But I think that they've got a very shrewd method and one of the key things that they do and they recognize is that there's kind of a randomness in T20 and they don't overreact to losses. And we see that, you know, we talked about in that book, you know, when Chennai lose a match, they make half as many changes for the next game as Bangalore do. So, you know, they understand that you can play quite well then an ABW is on the roster can take the game away from you and that's kind of just how it is. And that's part of the kind of, I think the genius of M.S. Doney, he understands his randomness to the game. He doesn't overreact to defeats and that enables him to kind of keep the show on the road, keep nice and steady and moving forward. Guys, just a last question as far as the game is concerned because I want to move on to some other chapters you touched on as well, that being the doping side of things, that being the fixing side of things. The one last thing, Freddie, if I were to ask you, since we are educating people here about what 2020 cricket is all about, what would be that one blueprint to how 2020 cricket is played? Can you put it down to one blueprint just given the fact that there's so much going on? Oh, it's a good question. There isn't one sort of a magic formula to winning. If there was then, you know, the teams that we work with at CrickViz would win every game. But there are some key things that you can pinpoint amongst successful teams that are sort of common themes, I suppose. Stability being one of them retaining a strong, as I was alluding to with Chen'ai, having a strong domestic core is essential. Generally speaking, when T20 came around, there was a focus on batsman. It was going to be a batsman's game because the game was all about sixes and fours. But what we've seen is that bowlers have been the key to long-term success anyway. So while there is no magic formula and batting heavy teams can win, I think if I had to say one thing that teams should do, and that's generally build a strong bowling attack, if you can get together five good bowlers, it becomes very difficult to take that team down. One weak bowler can cost a team a game. They've got about 24 deliveries. Those 24 balls nowadays, with the way the batsmen play, the efficiency of attack, they can take them to 50 runs. That's enough to lose the game just like that. But if you can get five bowlers who lock down 20 overs, it's very difficult to beat those kind of teams. So yeah, there is no magic formula, but bowling is probably the priority, I would say, when putting a squad together. So then, Freddie, what do you make of this over-reliance by teams on win toss, bowl first, and then let's chase whatever target that's set for us? So many people were using it nonstop. There was one season when everyone was winning the bowl first. Yeah, I mean, it's partly to do with, I mean, there's two things at play there. One is just the psychology of knowing what you've got to chase. Setting a score is difficult. You've got to read the conditions, and you've got to suss out. You can look at the stats, and okay, so 180 might be par at this round, but today the pitch might be a bit better or a bit worse, and that time of processing that ultimately can cost you. So that's one reason why teams like to chase, and I understand that. And secondly, particularly in Asia, just the Ju factor is massive. Teams are very reluctant, especially if teams have more and more spinners now, because we're seeing spinners being so successful. In India, in particular, heavy Ju obviously causes trouble for spinners. So they try and batting first simply, oh, sorry, bowling first avoids that. And then sometimes the Ju can help the ball skid them under lights as well. So there are a number of factors at play there, but it's worth saying as well, chasing teams still only win just over half T20 matches. A lot of most teams choose to chase, but it's not like they always will win if they chase. It is a slight advantage, but not a massive one. Freddie, it's 11-20 UK man. Do you have time to stay with us or do you need to head? Five more minutes I've got, and then I'll have to go. So then anything else you want to add, because then I'll talk to him about the doping and the fixing and all of that once again. One more point I suppose on the toss and bias there that we mentioned. One thing that teams recently tried to do is basically there are a number of teams you recognize that most teams who won the toss are elected to chase. So what you can do is if you build a team and a strategy defined by defending totals, then you can actually, you're in a stronger position at the toss, if you lose the toss and you choose to chase because chasing generally is a slight advantage, it's been great. So if you win the toss and choose to chase, then fantastic, but if you do lose it and you are put into bat, but you have a bowling attack and a strategy that's defined by defending scores, then you actually can win either way with, you know, you're not losing out at the toss and sunriders were a team in the IPL who did that quite well. They became very good at fending totals, essentially with a strong bowling attack and making sure they got to about par every time. And then the Adelaide strikers in the Big Bash were another team in 2017, 18, they won the Big Bash and they actually opted to bat first every time. Every, in that year, there was a huge chasing bias in the Big Bash. And that team, apart from Adelaide, wanted to chase but they chose to bat first and it meant that they were in a great position because even when they lost the toss, they were doing what they wanted to do. So that's just an example there of again using fairly basic numbers, but if you just sit down and sort of try and strategize a little bit, you can work out quite clear ways that you can exploit, you know, preferences of other teams and try and gain an edge. Just of course both teams that they had Rashi Khan and that just shows how valuable having fantastic bowlers are and, you know, a wrist spinner especially because it gives you the tools to be able to defend almost any score. And that means you don't have that, that trouble which you've seen with Bangalore, sorry to go from them again, you know, Bangalore, 180, 200 and just wouldn't be enough. Again, you must have really good bowlers and you must have really good spin bowls especially because what we know, spin bowls are more economical than fast bowls in every phase of the game and every over of the match. So we think in the years ahead, teams will generally bowl even more spin than they already do. Freddie, before we let you go, finally question this, you guys have covered in your book that first decade of the IPL and what played out in the field. Now in this next decade, as we're approaching the next 10 years, let's just say, you suppose, because in the first decade, all the big bucks were spent on the batsmen and just purely because of what you guys said as far as the bowlers are concerned, you suppose the next decade will see the bowlers coming in and making a lot more money or that won't happen. Yeah, and we're already beginning to see it. If you look at the last, it was a bit different because it was a mini auction, but Pat Cummins was obviously the most expensive buy at the last auction, but there are other guys as well who've got a lot of money. Kane Richardson, Chris Morris, Sheldon Cottrell, bowlers are in demand in the IPL generally. It might be different when we have the next mega auction because more players will be released and there are various other factors at play. But I think we're beginning to see that bowlers are extremely valuable. And I think over the next 10 years, we'll see them paid a lot better as a result. Thanks, Freddie. Cheers, guys. Thank you.