 very much for joining us tonight. We seem to have a few spare seats, so if you want to come a little bit closer so you can hear us better, you might enjoy that. I'd like to begin by acknowledging the traditional custodians of the land where we gather today and pay my respects to elders past, present and emerging. I recognize their connection to country and their role in caring for and maintaining country over thousands of years. Thank you. On behalf of the Lowy Institute AusPNG Network project, I'd like to welcome you to this panel discussion tonight where we'll be discussing digital innovations in health, sport and agriculture and education in Papua New Guinea. And we're pleased to have three of our 2022 AusPNG Network Emerging Leaders Dialogue alumni as panelists here today and I'll introduce them shortly. For those of you that don't know much about us, the AusPNG Network is a Lowy Institute project that has been running for 10 years with the support of the Australian government through the Department of Foreign Affairs and Trade. The goal of our network is to build links and understanding between Australia and Papua New Guinea to countries that share close ties in history and geography. Our Emerging Leaders Dialogue is a platform for young people to contribute their insights and ideas towards the development of closer ties between Australia and Papua New Guinea. The dialogue is the flagship annual event of our network. In December last year, 20 young and emerging leaders from Papua New Guinea and Australia gathered at the Lowy Institute in Sydney for our dialogue. Over five days, participants explored the theme of digital connectivity and focused on critical development and human security issues relevant to both PNG and Australia. Activities included site visits to Metis Australian Office, Google's Australian Regional Headquarters at Piermont, a reception with the keynote speaker, the PNG High Commissioner, his Excellency, John Carly. A panel with Rugby League stars to discuss the role of sport in building ties and supporting community development. The group traveled to Canberra for meetings with government and academia. We co-hosted the annual Ralph Honor Oration with the Kokoda Track Foundation before returning to Sydney for a focus on media skills and a site visit to the ABC Studios in Ultimo. So participants considered how PNG can develop its digital sector and the role of partners such as the Australian government, businesses and community organizations. We explored the digital theme from the perspectives of accessibility, affordability, meaningful connectivity, digital literacy, online safety, cyber security and gender. Participants developed recommendations for the Australian and PNG governments and the business community with the goal of improving links between the two countries. And that's the report that we are launching tonight. And there are copies on the table outside. I encourage you to take one or a few as many as you can cram in your bag. They are free, but you can charge whatever you want for them. The report captures the discussions over the course of that week. There is no single author. There's no attribution to the contents. You'll see quotes and quotations throughout it. These are sentiments and comments that were made throughout the course of the week. And what we'll do tonight is we'll explore some of those issues. And after we hear from our panelists, we'd like to open the floor to the audience if you might have your own questions as well. The discussion is being recorded. We'll publish this discussion and share it with a wider audience in days to come. Let me introduce our panelists. We've got Clara Kama sitting right next to me. Clara is an Australian Papua New Guinea woman with roots in Central Province and Yule Island. Clara is currently employed at Grain Corp. And along with her agricultural pursuits, she's represented Papua New Guinea in the 2020 National Women's Rugby 15 Squad, the Casuaries, and 2023 as well. And congratulations on that. Must have gone pretty well. In fact, the list of sports engagements is quite long. So I think I'll skip to the end and say that Clara aims to create more opportunities for PNG agricultural ambassadors to meaningfully contribute to Papua New Guinea's agricultural development. And Clara will be speaking on sport and agriculture tonight. Jack Groudin, he's the guy in the suit, is the founder and CEO of Lighthouse International, an Australian NGO which has provided 200,000 students in Papua New Guinea, Australia, and the Asia-Pacific region with digital learning tools and opportunities. Probably more than that now. Just reading an old bio. Jack will speak about digital education. And we have Sarah Bornstein. Sarah is an emergency nurse specialist based in Darwin. She has been supporting emergency care capacity development activities in Papua New Guinea for the past four years. Sarah's work contributed to the development and rollout of Kumul Health School, PNG's first digital learning program for emergency-clerk clinicians. Sarah will speak to us about innovations in health. So without much further adieu, I'll kick off the discussion by asking our panelists a few questions and we'll see whether night takes us. I'll start with you, Jack. In what ways can digital technologies enhance educational opportunities and bridge the education gap in Papua New Guinea, particularly for disadvantaged communities? Well, before I get started, I just want to acknowledge Mihai and the whole program that we were a part of was absolutely terrific. Let's get out of the way before we begin. I've been a part of a lot of different emerging leader programs and things like that, but this one was special in that we had a great group of people together. It connected us with people that, well, to a varying degree, listened to what young people have to say about the Australia PNG relationship. And we had an outcome which is this fantastic report and it really is a terrific report and I think there's some great ideas in there and I hope that those that read it do take heed. So well done to Mihai and the whole team at Lowy for hosting us. It was a fantastic week and great to be here. Look to your question, Mihai, I think I'm a little bit biased when it comes to this question. I think digital technologies are indispensable to everything that we do. In terms of education, equality education in today's world can only be digital. And the reason I say that is because nearly every profession that you have today and certainly it's heading more and more this way, any endeavor you attempt, if you want to learn, if you want to play, if you want to meet people, if you want to connect, you need to do it digitally to succeed. And so what I fear is that there is a generation of Papua New Guinea that are being left behind because if you go into classrooms across Papua New Guinea there are not digital tools readily available and we're not cultivating digital citizens in the classroom. We talk a lot about digital government and I'm sure we'll talk a lot about across various sectors but there's things about digitizing government services. I saw the other day quite a bizarre thing about digital voting, which I'll speak about a bit later on. If we're going to have a digital economy, if we're going to have people using online banking in PNG, if we're going to have things such as digital education, digital government services, we're not going to be able to have a generation of Papua New Guineans actually utilizing those services and leading the way, unless they become digital citizens in the classroom. So I'm just going to tweak that question a little bit. It's not a bonus. It's not what's possible or what the potential is with digital technologies. It's that digital technologies are indispensable to quality education in today's world. The biggest problem that I think schools in Papua New Guinea face with digital education, it might sound a bit bizarre, is that a lot of the initiatives that are there to support them, they start with the sale, not the boat. They start with connectivity support. They forget about devices to get the most out of that connectivity. And so the work that Lighthouse International does is we provide computers into schools, 15 desktop computers into schools with an offline e-library built in to the labs so that students can be accessing information that students all throughout South East Queensland and all throughout Australia have access to. I think later on we're going to talk a little bit about where to start with this sort of thing, but we need to start with devices. We need to address device poverty in schools. We need to follow a very similar path to what schools did in Australia at the advent of digital technologies, which is to get them into the classroom. Ultimately digital is the future, it's the present, but it's also the future and we have to remember that the students that are going through school right now students that I've met at length across places like Juwaka, Chimbu, Gulf Province they're going to be working quite possibly into the 2070s and the 2080s. If it's a digital world now imagine what it's going to be like then and ultimately we owe it to them to ensure that we enshrine digital technologies into the classroom and we accept that as a necessity. Not a bonus, it's not what it can create it's that it must be so. It must be so in exactly the same value that books and pencils and blackboards provide. We're in a digital world today. We need to get Papua New Guinea students to be on digital technology every day in the classroom and it is possible. That's the most important part and I look forward to sharing a little bit more about what we do and how we've made it possible in the most remote parts of the country over the last five years. Amazing. Okay, I love your fire. Hold on to that. Sarah, how can digital innovations in health contribute to improving access to quality healthcare services in remote and underserved areas of Papua New Guinea? That's a big question. Sorry, I lost my voice today. I think there are three main parts to that. I think there's education which Jack's already spoken about. I think there's information and I think there's peer support as well. So on the education front again, Jack's spoken a lot about sort of the infrastructure side of it but I think as well there's these learning programs that you can roll out, not in one location but you can deliver it everywhere so that some of those smaller communities with maybe one doctor or a few nurses can then access the same learning that someone in the city can. I was involved for the last few years rolling out the Commonwealth Health School program with support from Catawpa the learning provider and DFAT and Australian College of Emergency Medicine amongst others but I think the beauty of the program was that it was because of COVID rarely will I thank COVID but because of COVID we weren't able, the Australian team wasn't able to travel there. So we worked really closely with the local team learning how to do Zoom calls and how to develop an online learning program via Zoom and I think it actually meant that as much as it was very intimidating initially the local team really took ownership of it and were really, really stick about what could be delivered and assuming that we were not going to be able to get over there at all what they were able to do and they really took it on and were so proud of everything that was achieved and then when it was rolled out it became I think a lot more than it would have been had a bunch of Australians gone over and rolled out a program. So the education side of it that can reach more people there's the information side of it by collecting information we have an idea of what is happening it's applicable to all sectors particularly in health I think COVID again has shown us that by having some health data you can see where outbreaks are happening how quickly they're happening and you can allocate your resources accordingly and in a low resource setting that's particularly important when you're already stretched you need to know where these you've already got a shortage of clinicians where should they be where should these resources go by having the data you can use that I think as well we had some involvement in developing data collection tools in some of the emergency departments initially we were worried that clinicians would see it as extra work but actually we found the opposite they wanted to get involved they wanted to prove how hard they were working and show how many patients they're seeing and what they're coming in with and how long they're spending with these patients and the clinicians have been able to use it as an advocacy tool and we need more managers to say we need more staff because look at all the work we're doing and we can now show you in a graph or in a table and prove to you everything that we're doing so that's been really helpful as well and now we're starting to see clinicians get involved in research opportunities as well which is so exciting for emergency care in P&G which is a pretty young specialty in P&G and then lastly that peer support element which I think is kind of add on to a lot of things but maybe doesn't get the recognition that it deserves I think it alone is incredible from a skills and experience sharing perspective but also just a well-being perspective we've seen particularly in the last few years again thanks COVID there have been forums particularly in emergency care that's all I can speak to but we've had forums with clinicians all across the Pacific sharing their experiences and learning from each other and it's not been someone teaching someone else it's really been this sharing opportunity and to say oh we tried this and it worked maybe you give it a go and everyone's coming on and sharing these amazing opportunities so that they're delivering better care but also they're saying we understand what you're going through and then these clinicians that are you know in these tiny communities working by themselves going through these difficult experiences making these really hard decisions about life or death have somewhere that they can jump on to a zoom call and go this happened yesterday and I just want to share it and for everyone to go we can't fix this but I get it and I think there's so much that can be said for that as well from a well-being perspective that's excellent thank you Claire what does digital technology mean for you and your peers and do you see major differences between how young people use technology in Papua New Guinea and how it is used in Australia I might tackle this from a sporting perspective please no pun intended but with the younger folk in PNG if they have access to a phone if they have data if they have internet it's a way that we connect and keep in touch with a lot of international sport and the way sports progressing for all of the sports in PNG rugby and women's sport which are a big advocate for that's how we keep connected and a lot of the teams now do have Australian based players so we use I guess digital technology to keep in touch and also to progress our skills so a lot of our management back home I can speak firsthand experience that there's a lot of room for development improvement so Oceana Rugby and World Rugby for example sort of link in with the technology side and they'll help with our management and coaching to try and get them up to that skill level we're trying to progress to so getting your certificates for coaching foundation course one two what not so then they can take it back to their clubs bring that into the international corp and grow the game definitely lacking at the moment but there's so much opportunity there and things out there from rugby union I know rugby league they're a bit ahead of the game with the backing support of the NRL here in Australia so they have programs such as team up going into local communities within the country for the youth and they try and advocate for things through their little fun games and educational purposes I guess so they'll tackle I guess gender based violence they'll try and teach the kids through fun activities while they're young I guess to just talk about important things that are challenging our community and culture I guess back there the differences between young people we're super advanced here in Australia obviously growing up with it having a phone all the time and even in primary school the transition to high school and to university if you do choose to go you're already taught how to use the basics so back home in PNG some of them totally skipped a whole generation I know back when we had our emerging leaders dialogue we did talk about how they totally skipped a generation boom the iPhone is here but no one knows how to even text or use certain things properly so it opens up issues for things to get misused people not using like social media and different things correctly there's lots of scams and things out there people aren't aware of so sorry this is going on a different tangent but so there is a big difference there I guess with how we use it but it is very important especially and with the young ones coming through being a young leader in the women's sport in the progressive national game it is very important to keep us connected and it is a challenge because we're not always together and we don't get to practice skills and whatnot but it'll be a vital part of our of us improving to the next level yeah thank you my next question is going to be for Jack now we've heard some examples about formal systems, informal networks the social nature of technology and how it can be directly applicable to the delivery of public services but what do you say Jack to people who suggest that it's too early to focus on digital education in a country like Papua New Guinea and that maybe the focus should be on the basics yeah I just would like to, I feel I shortchanged you on your last answer I focused on the necessity of digital not the power of digital just a quick story before I get on that if that's okay recently I was in Juwaka in a school I think it was number 163 that we opened a computer lab in the school and while we were there I looked on the shelf and I saw on a bookshelf there was less books on the shelf of the whole school than I have at home there was about, I counted 45 books some of which I actually remember from when I was growing up learning about dinosaurs and whales and things like that that was, I would have been reading those in about 2002, 2003 but one of the critical learning resources that the school had available was a encyclopedia and so I checked the data that and it was 1978 and if you look on the wall there's a map, I love maps I thought this is fantastic, let's go and see what the kids are learning about oh the Soviet Union is still on the map that's a shame so I want to express the power of digital by just saying that we compare that encyclopedia which is well outdated and needs to be replaced every year to what we're providing with our fantastic partners NUNET for free at no cost to the schools an offline e-library with the entire Wikipedia collection, 6.2 million articles on Wikipedia alone for free at these kids fingertips so sometimes we over complicate this digital thing, all digital is is the ability to minimise an enormous amount of information that you could fill that Deloitte Tower full of books and still not have 6.2 million articles so suddenly at these kids fingertips they have information and ultimately what we're talking about here with digital and what certainly Sarah referred to with is the access to information that's the key that digital allows you to proliferate information and then there's the connectivity piece afterwards but information if we talk about starting at the basics of the question, this is the part people get digital all wrong they get it all wrong, I cannot believe that we have had to go to government programs that are trying to build digital capability in 12 high schools across PNG they did everything but start with devices they spent 8 million dollars and there was no computers in those schools now none of us here are tech entrepreneurs, I don't believe if you are I apologise but common sense prevails in that to say that we need to start with computers we need to start with the boat and then we put up the sale which allows the sorts of things that have been mentioned before with connectivity but first of all we need the devices because that's how you proliferate information so to this point I really don't know who makes those sorts of points but digital technology is a basic in today's world we consider it a basic, it's in your pocket everyone here is pocket we consider it a necessity you don't leave home without your phone so why is it good enough for you not to leave home without your phone yet for kids in Papua New Guinea they don't get access to digital technologies at school so the basics I think we get overly confused by digital technology we think we have to go and have kids learning zoom classes and doing all of these incredible things the basics is just them using a computer them not being intimidated by technology not relying for a job at ExxonMobil just being able to feel it and touch it and understand the power of digital like we're talking about tonight and to have access to information that is a human right that's the basics so we start with that and eventually I think that the power of digital in a country like Papua New Guinea where you have 23 different provinces you've got enormous cultural diversity you've got mountain ranges that blow the mind, rivers and remoteness perhaps one day where we've got teachers that don't want to go and teach in Gulf province because there's no provisions there for them where we've got schools that even don't have any teachers like the ones I saw on the Prairie River back in May maybe we can have teachers teaching out of Port Moresby into classrooms digitally and we simply have facilitators around them so it's happening in Bangladesh already there's a fantastic foundation that does it that's the sort of power of digital but it doesn't have to start with that so we have to be starting with addressing device poverty that's the first step then you've got connectivity and then you've got ability and that should be common sense that should be taken as read but unfortunately it's not and I think that's what lets down a lot of digital education initiatives is they go too far too early start with the basics that's my thoughts on that that's a good answer, I don't know who would throw a question like that at you but certainly it wasn't me let's explore another sector now let's talk a little bit about agriculture and what digital technology can do for that Claire? so my background is in grain corp which is a global commercial company that export grain overseas so not only based in Australia all over and I know we do send vessels to the Pacific just talking about that our company on the global footprint I guess we do have an opportunity to open avenues for workers to come over and help out so I know we do have the palm the palm scheme with workers coming for seasonal work the government's just changed something around to try and improve that and get more workers over not just in agriculture but in hospitality in other areas to upskill their profession so when they're finished working here if they don't choose to say or whatever happens down the track they can go back and take that school back to P&G and improve different industries over there and talking about on the agricultural scale I think there's a few different networks and companies around and government companies as well that help with trying to link workers to agricultural businesses and trying to get people over here to upskill them and give them that little exposure to quality a different quality of life and just to it's a bit of an eye-opener I guess super different to being in P&G do you think there are tools that can be used in the agricultural sector that haven't been implemented or that are being implemented in P&G that could change change the productivity for small-hold farmers, change their practices engage with climate change adaptation initiatives yeah so we have a few NGOs here in Australia that do agricultural development and aid work over in P&G I'm just going to talk about ACIA at the moment they're one of the big ones that do a lot of work and projects over there and they fund a bunch of projects in regional areas and they get P&G students who are studying or people locally based to do little projects in their community to try and I guess see how better they can run their agricultural projects and at the end of the day these small projects will try and improve the livelihood of their community so trying to increase productivity, increase the gross margin that they're bringing back to the home so at the end of the day they might be they can put that money towards more food for their family or maybe pay for education purposes so there are a lot of little projects going on and a lot of that is done digitally online on the phone if they have access there's a lot of Australian aid people going over to help out with these projects here and there but they don't get to be there all the time just I guess same as Jack's perspective he'll go and set that up but he won't be able to be there to watch over and see the project through so just having those devices to contact people and to ensure that they're getting the best out of their trials and research whatnot sorry that's great thank you now Sarah you mentioned COVID a few times as an emergency care specialist can you talk us through how you use technology in an emergency health response in Papua New Guinea and perhaps if you could what other scenarios would healthcare workers in Papua New Guinea be planning for we have the pandemic but what else would classify as an emergency health response for them sure so we've used digital technology in a lot of different ways I think a lot of it I guess that I've been involved in has been around education and obviously I'm a little biased about criminal health school being great because I developed it but we did you know there was a COVID element to that and we did a lot of training about PPE and preventing infection and I guess our while it was COVID focused we tried really hard to keep it as broad as possible as well because as much as COVID has been all consuming for the last few years we didn't want it to end there and also Papua New Guinea has a lot of other health issues TB comes to mind it's a massive health issue and I think the clinicians that we were in touch with were a lot more concerned about TB than they were about COVID so it was really great to bring a program as with all the other COVID education that teaches about you know general principles of infection control and disease management rather than just focusing on COVID so I think for me education has been the main one but again that community building has been really good and I think part of for me what I noticed with rolling out digital learning for most of our users there were probably a couple who had been involved in digital learning before if everyone else it was brand new and it was such a privilege to see everybody want to be involved in it and want to embrace it but also some of those side conversations that we had I think were maybe some of the most useful we were then having discussions about different things you could access social media and how you can follow the WHO page and all these other really important pages not just talk to your friends on Facebook so I think it sort of opened up this world and then there are all these other like specific clinical tools that I will not bore you with but that you can access guidelines and protocols and drug calculators and stuff that is quite specific to medicine but that people didn't know existed and certainly didn't know they could access from their phones and a lot of them are downloadable so you can get into Wi-Fi download the app or download the information and then you can walk away and be an expert because that's all we do in Australia as much as we pretend to be geniuses so to disappoint anyone that goes to a hospital we are looking at apps we are using calculators we aren't we haven't we don't realize this stuff we are relying on these resources whereas my colleagues in PNG all this time have been trying to remember things and there is just no need so I think yeah it kind of opens up a whole other world and then the research side of it as well it's been really fun getting to watch people want to be involved in research and feel so proud that you know you have gone from being published in the Lancet and watching that transition over just a couple of years is wild and has people excited and it's become not just you know something you have to learn and to get better at your job and of course everyone wants to provide better care but it's become this real thing that people are proud to be involved in as well could I just add to that that's the information I'm talking about having access to but also I just love hearing stories about people having access to digital tools for the very first time I've had the privilege of sitting next to kids the very first time they've got this thing in front of them they've never seen a device in their life ever before and I remember one particular student at the Hargan T primary school in the western highlands generally speaking when we sit with the kids for the very first time they're you know with all due respect to them not great because it's just so overwhelming for them you know but we take them through the basics which they call the bugger up in key in parts of PNG here's the space bar and so on and so I'm working through the very basic fundamentals with two kids on my left one on my right and I can't quite see what the gentleman over here is up to and it turns out my dad was there on the day and he comes up and taps on the shoulder and he goes Jack you've got to see this, you've got to see this I thought alright I better have a look and I looked over and this student within 15 minutes of ever using a digital device in his life a digital paragraph with capital letter shift key, mastered, space is perfect enter down key he even changed the color of the text he bolded the text then I can just briefly touch on my team in PNG you know Claire you're right sometimes it did leave me with anxiety leaving this equipment behind what happens next now I've got a full team in PNG so this is actually Papua New Guineans driving change not me going there and doing this all of them if you look on their LinkedIn profile Lighthouse International they were subsistence farmers at Mount Curta Ridge so we've managed to train them we've managed, sorry we've managed to give them the opportunity to train themselves on how to use and implement digital technologies and now they're the ones that are installing and solving problems so the point I'm getting at is there's this enormous amount of human capability that is trapped on the other side of the digital divide we always talk about what we can do for them what about their ideas what about their talents what about their capabilities well currently they're trapped and it's a simple matter of building that bridge across with resources we can get their ideas their talents and their capabilities to be solving global problems so we don't have to do it on our own I think there's a lot of talent that's there that's being lost across the digital divide and we need to address that as quick as possible you seem to be on a bit of a roll there so I think I'll stick with you for the next question what do you want to see there's a partnership between Australia and Papua New Guinea a lot of points of engagement in development assistance diplomacy people to people links economics security cooperation what do you want to see from the Australian side of that partnership what do you want to see from the PNG side and thinking about not just government but what do you want businesses to be doing and community organisations to be thinking about well I'm going to start from the bottom there's some fantastic community organisations here in Australia first of all I can give project UMI for example there's some great organisations that are on the ground moving resources from the haves to the have nots huge generalisation but that's the general gist of it there's some fantastic NGOs doing great work in Australia will couple them into the community sector and there's some great people to people links I think there is an underlying respect between Australians and Papua New Guineans you know all in all but I do think and when it comes to the corporate sector I speak volumes of Papua New Guinea's corporate sector they're the ones that finance charities like us they're the ones that get behind NGOs and drive immediate change straight away direct tangible real change you can feel in the palm of your hand so I speak very highly of the corporates in PNG to be perfectly honest but that's where it ends for me because I think for the Australian government we need to really really really have a good look at priorities the fact is that I've seen too many projects that DFAT has supported that just seems so critically devoid of common sense like what I mentioned before an eight million dollar project to build digital connectivity to build digital capability in schools and we don't have computers I have a theory that maybe there's a few too many experts a few too many consultants who spend a few too many hours at a whiteboard trying to solve problems that are pretty straightforward if you think about when you had breakfast this morning you probably if you had cereal like me you would have eaten out of a bowl looks like bowls did 5000 years ago you would have eaten with a fork and a spoon that looked very similar to what people in the middle ages ate with we didn't need to reinvent that wheel because it works and I guess we need to start to borrow a little bit from the history of development that all of our nations have been through all the nations of the world are on a development path and if you follow and log their human development index scores follow a fairly similar tangent and yes of course there's plus and minus when it comes to culture and geography their variants of course no doubt about that but by and large we as humans we have universal needs and necessities we'll need the same thing we're all human beings and so we need to look at countries that have gone through that development curve including our own once upon a time you know parts of Brisbane here there would have been slums there would have been children not being able to go to school there still is of course but by and large Australia's escaped certain traps along those development lines so why is it that when we decide when we've already put computer labs into schools in our country why did we suddenly when we give support overseas why do we throw that out why do we have to come up with new solutions for these things it should be taken as read that children go to school it should be taken as read that there is technology in those schools that's my issue so I'm going to talk more about that but ultimately I think we just need to simplify development it's not that hard at all if you look at the great development initiatives they were infrastructure based they were filling critical resource gaps we just over complicate these things far too much that's my honest opinion of what I see from a lot of Australian government funded initiatives I'll be honest as an NGO that has grown from $20 from my best mate to being in the top 10% of charities by revenue size in this country and we've built 173 computer labs in PNG and DFAT and many international development partners have been utterly invisible on that journey which brings me to the second stakeholder who have been equally invisible the PNG government it's not a political statement this is governments in general we talk about DFAT's priorities if what we heard from DFAT in Canberra was true their priorities are dictated to by those who have and hold the mandate of government well if the priorities are to build digital capability in schools without laptops we've got some problems we need to get to the absolute basic grassroots of development we need to build roads to move people and goods cheaper and easier to foster greater industry we need to get children into schools because PNG has a youth bulging youth bubble and that's a liability at the moment and the only way to move that to be an asset is to educate them it's pretty simple how do I know that because we did it because China did it because Japan did it because humans did that for centuries and so I think we need to we need to really just get back to the fundamental stop going to a whiteboard to solve these problems listen to community development officers on the ground listen to local councillors in Papua New Guinea who live and breathe this stuff every single day and quite honestly cut the nonsense get back to delivering real tangible results of people if you can't build it don't fund it I think that's a fair start alright we'll open the floor to questions from the audience it's not a whiteboard it's a it's a bit of a town hall comments and questions please raise your hand if you could identify your affiliation if you like and your name any questions in the audience right digital CEO obviously really in our program like we've seen with it in some big auditions in India other pretty well countries particularly Africa that are brilliant with young banks in the country and the prices how long are we going to wait and what are we going to do to really try and drive government action to understand that digital technologies are more critical in the future that's a great question I think it just goes to the point of the fact that other countries have been on these development journeys before and so there's evidence out there so that we don't need to reinvent the wheel we simply need to borrow from it what drives the impetus for that I think is informed citizens what Lighthouse International is to provide information to the future voters the future citizens of the country of PNG I think there's too much voter complacency there's not enough accountability from the top echelons of government to the bottom and like I said pretty well invisible on our journey as an NGO through this space so I think ultimately it comes down to the citizens of PNG to drive this change it's not us we're outsiders and I guess that's why I finish on PNG government because ultimately Australia is obviously a major development partner of PNG but we're one of many but ultimately the mandate for delivering basic services falls to the PNG government and I think perhaps I'm not a Papua New Guinea citizen so I can't speak at all on their behalf but as an Australian and as someone passionate about Papua New Guinea maybe we need to hold it to greater account as a CEO of an NGO we're trying to register as an accredited NGO with DFAT and the paperwork we have to fill out the things we have to do and rightfully so because we're going to take taxpayers money of Australian taxpayers here and we want to put that into programs but if we're being held to such high account what about the things that we actually do fund where's the outcomes of that we met as 20 Papua New Guinea and Australian emerging leaders and we had an outcome it's in his hand it's a report we're raising money for light as international tonight to $15 a unit we're most definitely not but my point being is you know that's it's an outcome it's something but I would like to see from that particular project where millions of dollars were handed over to build digital capability schools where's the outcome point to it show us an outcome so there's not enough of that it's a very opaque space and I think that is disappointing as well as Australian taxpayers we should know exactly where our money is being spent in the vicinity of $600 million but ultimately I think it all falls down to citizens and I was just chatting before I'm such an optimist for PNG if we can convert that youth bulge into an asset rather than a liability the country is going to have an incredibly bright future I wouldn't invest so much in my life if I didn't love and care and really appreciate and value the country's future but ultimately what I see is citizens becoming frustrated very frustrated as Claire alluded to I come home I come home to a country where we do have basic services and where I do feel rewarded as a taxpayer somewhat but ultimately it's going to be the citizens of Papua New Guinea who lose patience with government and when that happens when that really snaps and happens it's not a good outcome and I hope we don't see that in 10 or 15 years because a lot of countries that have faced a resource a resource curse countries that have stalled at certain points of the development cycle it's happened to them where there's been unrest or disorder and I just so hope that it doesn't take that course and that Papua New Guinea citizens can hold their government to greater account because it must be so and I hope that anyone that's in government listening to this right now gets some boots on go on to the ground and listen to the people that put you there in the first place because it's not good enough and it has to change however it changes I don't know the answer so Jack doesn't know the answer to that one any other questions from our audience please sir so the question was for anyone who couldn't hear is did the group consider examples from other parts of the world where there are perhaps success stories that could be applied and I'll have a crack and if anyone else on the panel wants to jump in let me know but it did come up during the course of the week and I think the lesson there is also how we can identify those potential those success stories as potential solutions for Australian NPNG stakeholders the focus for the week was the bilateral relationship the relationship between our two countries but there's a lesson there about networking and the sort of peer support effect that all three panelists spoke about and I think with a little bit of connectivity and a few devices the partnership can expand beyond just Australia and Papua New Guinea in terms of people that you do need a whiteboard sometimes is true but it's not just about looking what's worked well in other parts of the Australian development program as you said it's about what are other countries doing for themselves what are other communities altogether doing for themselves so you know I'd say that all countries are at the beginning of this journey in terms of how governments and businesses engage with digital technology and the communities that are their stakeholders and I acknowledge that it's probably not well known enough for someone working someone in Canberra working on PNG probably doesn't have enough visibility of what other people are doing in other parts of the world and I think the same goes from any chair that you pick and that's a bit of a human foible but you know ironically there's technology that can help us overcome that and using the power of networks any other of my panellists want to jump in Claire? Before I give it to Jack I'm just going to say PNG is quite complex as well so when we are dealing with these issues and getting digital connectivity and devices out we just have to remember like there's eight, 900 different dialects so unique in different areas of the country so you have to culturally appropriately put those things in place and get those out so that's another challenge we face so it is good to take history and different points from other countries and how they've rolled things out but PNG in itself compared to the Pacific like we talk about Tonga, Samoa, Fiji they are super complex so we can't just hear just the spread of what we're going to do for the country we have to be like super individualised and specific in how we're going to roll that out in each space. Absolutely and that's what I was talking about with the variants most countries will follow that same curve but there will be plus and minuses and you've got to expect that PNG is going to have probably the highest plus or minus because as you say a third of the world's language is spoken there it's an extraordinary country it's an amazing place of diversity and not every solution floats there's no doubt about that but I do think it's a great point countries like India at the moment are growing at 7% per annum their economy and just proliferating basic services to people I lived in India for a little while and I'm going back there for Christmas four years ago I was in India last I can't wait to come back because I can't wait to see how the country has taken leaps and bounds forward but the power of digital once again is that these sorts of things are only a question away it doesn't the point with people in Canberra we have internet connection in Canberra we can search for these sorts of things it comes to digital banking and to expanding the ID system for example right across the country it's been one of the biggest things that India has worked on in the 2010s but also things like Paytm Paytm went from being a little tiny start-up in Bangalore to suddenly within about five months every person in India was using Paytm they were sponsoring the Indian Cricket Team Virat Kohli's going out to bat with them on here five months ago they didn't even exist so there's so much to admire about India and what they've been able to create they really are the big developing nation of the era so I think we must be looking at these things and I think then we look at success stories in other countries and as Claire alludes to they can't just be copy pasted but they have to then it's incumbent on Papua New Canadians to work out how do we integrate this into our ways and work that out but I think it would have been great to touch on that a bit more for sure and I think I was only saying to Laura my colleague before I came here it would be great to have an Australia X dialogue for every country in the world you know it would be an amazing thing to hear some of the ideas that people are doing but they're only a Facebook post or a LinkedIn scroll away these sorts of ideas LinkedIn in particular so I think we need to be constantly looking at what other countries are doing because at the end of the day they are human and they're a basic human necessities it's not me saying that there's 192 governments have agreed to the sustainable development goals we're all signatories to them we've all identified that's what we need for sustainable development so we use that as a benchmark what works in other countries will likely work in different contexts with little tweaking so we should have more conversations about that that's for sure I think from a health perspective there's some of that is happening but I guess it's such a small piece of the pie but there's definitely lessons from other countries in terms of apps and things that we can use in health that are coming to PNG I think there's a lot of work in the health information space as well thankfully the WHO is leading a lot of that as well and sharing those lessons which has been really useful but I think it is definitely happening but I think there's also a lot of people working in little bubbles and I think some of that is contractual as well where there's different projects funded for different things and I think it would be really great to see some of the bigger organisations looking more broadly at what 10 different little projects are they funding and could some of them be friends and learn from each other and share some of that and do you need to do the same things separately 10 times or could you all work together and achieve more so I think some of it is happening definitely room for improvement as well any other questions from the audience please so Maho from Low Institute Mike you mentioned device poverty but PNG has some of the highest internet price in the world do you have any recommendations for PNG government or development partners how to reduce or at least increase affordability so the question for the rest of the room affordability PNG has some of the highest internet prices in the world what's the answer I think it's terribly difficult to solve the connectivity piece I do want to get to another part of your question there but the connectivity piece is a real challenge in PNG and you know we've got such an enormous geographic landmass people forget that about PNG you know we always talk about Australia being a huge country but I drove the Highlands Highway in November and I needed a chiropractor on call for about a week after that it's a huge country and if you look at the most connected nations in the world digitally you look at South Korea for example it's such a small landmass you know places in Europe so PNG it's always going to be a challenge it's not about it I think what we need to what we need to be looking at is things like Starlink you know things that don't that wipe geography out of the equation as much as possible but I'm no expert on that and there are plenty of other people that are experts on that and I would hope to someone who would love a LinkedIn connection or two from people in the audience to ask these questions is David Valentine from UNET the founder and CEO he's from Papua New Guinea and Fiji and he's a terrific guy and he's done a lot in this space but my recommendation would be to stop thinking that this is to government to stop only thinking about the online aspects of it the schools in Papua New Guinea when we first started at Lighthouse there was about 3,600 primary schools a single one had a digital classroom that was functional could deliver education so if I can focus back on my issue we need to see that the power of digital is in the minimalization of information that you can have 6.2 million articles in the palm of your hand so first of all let's use that as an asset let's go and get one of these boxes that Dave from UNET has developed himself a PNG startup what an amazing story and that doesn't need the internet this is a totally un-solution so you can just place it into a school and you don't have any problems it's a way you go kids have access to information so there's a win we tick that box and we move on to something else we're currently working on a solution at Lighthouse that overcomes the electrification issue as well so it couples solar energy into a box that's the size of a suitcase and we can roll it out anywhere in the world whether it be on a beach or in a mountain or by the river in Prairie and Gulf and we can have digital classes but I think we've just like I started with Simplify Digital stop trying to get kids in PNG that never use a device to be suddenly active digital citizens that are going on to YouTube and sending emails and being on Zoom it has to happen incrementally it can't happen overnight but certainly the low-hanging fruit is this offline possibility because even if you look if we once again look to other nations let's look at my part of the world in North Queensland if you cross the great dividing range Tata Telstra see you later until you get to Klonkari you know so we have connectivity will improve over the years I've got no doubt about that but at the moment it's still a big challenge and the ability to download content as Sarah was saying and be able to discern that in your own time later is really powerful really powerful so connectivity I think it's the geography of PNG does not lend itself towards connectivity easily but I do think that Starlink and satellite internet is something that can be the future there but I think overall we need to focus more on digital capability and less on connectivity it's we've had instances of this in remote parts of Queensland we've worked with NBN you know the National Broadband Network where they've provided heavily subsidized internet packages to people in Arakun but what's the point because they don't have devices to tap into it so as soon as we deliver devices and incentivize people to go hey I'm not going to throw away that brochure from NBN I'm actually going to have a look at it so let's get back to the basics with digital that'd be my advice and connectivity will catch up later I'm going to take the final question and throw it to each of you in turn so what advice, I'll start with you Claire so you can hold on to that what advice would you have for a young person tonight or watching it online in their own time considering Papua New Guinea, considering Australia, considering the relationship watching the discussion and wondering what is their role in all of this and how much power do they have as an individual to effect change it's an easy question, yes or no I think if there's youth watching us well I guess we're role models for these guys as well who maybe they're aspiring to be bigger than what they've seen where they've grown up they might want to be a doctor they might want to be a professional women's rugby player they might want to be whatever they want but digital connectivity and the progress with the digital world definitely will be a big part of their progression for educational purposes and whatnot they're definitely going to have to challenge what's happening back home right now and there's a need there and I think the youth are going to be the ones to challenge that and push for better people in our generation I guess I'm not going to say our ages but they'll be the ones trying to push for that and the ones younger than us I guess will really take that opportunity and run with it when it does come and take time I believe and it is coming there's slow progress there but it's going to take time but with the youth that I meet now here even in Brisbane like a lot of people who don't have that opportunity back home they do come to Australia to study to have that better quality education to upskill and to get that professional aspect of whatever sector they want to go back to to take it back home to P&G so people who do have aspirations get educated or be professional in whatever they want to do you do have to know how to use a computer and use a phone and unfortunately you have to have that digital connectivity headspace so it is very important and I think the people are going to have to push it if the government or people of power aren't going to be there to support it We'll go to Jack next and then finish with Sarah I split the question into Australians, young Australians and then young Papua New Guineans first of all young Australians I think I often talk to people my age and younger now we're the generation of unparalleled opportunities that's what we're talking about here with digital it's limitless we can meet instantly we can message instantly we can find things out instantly so we have the privilege of having access to the most extraordinary tools with a generation of unparalleled opportunities but I think we're also the generation of unparalleled obligation as well we can't we cannot simply stand in the way we cannot simply also get out of the way and abdicate responsibility for global issues they are ours they are our children's and it's incumbent on us to do the very very best that we possibly can which I think previous generations have certainly done as well but it's possible that's the point I like that part of me it's possible I was 19 I lived in Townsville I played football on the weekends I drank far too much someone like me was able to do this and someone like me was able to start an NGO why can't why can't others and but more importantly not every young person that needs to go on to start an NGO that would be the worst thing ever because we need people to be doing other incredibly important things but how about we set a life goal as young people to be net producers for the world and not net consumers so we create we create more than what we take and if we're able to do that if 51% of our population can be a net producer not a net taker which is not the case at the moment in society then we would have a much better world and a lot of problems would naturally solve themselves to Papua New Guineans though I think as we were reflecting on earlier it's terribly sad for me to see that there's a lot of negativity around PNG at the moment and that just shouldn't be particularly I see on Facebook all the time I there and scroll through comments when I've got nothing else to do lucky me and I see you know I see negativity around Papua New Guinea and where it's headed and whatnot and I hope I didn't touch too much on negativity today because I truly believe Papua New Guinea is an extraordinary country it's got incredible potential the people are its greatest asset the people are not a liability they are an asset we just need to make sure that the mass that exists in PNG which is probably more like 17 million people let's be honest by the World Bank's report we need to make sure those people have the tools to exercise their creativity and their passion for their country and I just I just so hope that the public in PNG and young people in PNG start to see some change and that they don't become disenfranchised with the system and reject it we can't reject the system we have to change it you can't give up we have to look the problems dead straight in the eye and so my my advice to the young Papua New Canadians would be approach these problems knowing that you can make a difference and there are incredible Papua New Canadians here in the audience on the stage and throughout my journeys I've met them I think there's so much potential in that country let's start tapping it and I hope that the generation that goes through now that will live to see 100 years post-independence leaves behind a nation that provides greater reward for the incredible people put in daily in Papua New Canadians so that less advice more just keep going just just try your best do your best and leave behind a better world than you entered yeah I think that young people should know that they can play whatever role they want to play I think it will be different for everyone and whatever people choose there will always be challenges and there will always be people that say oh there's not enough internet so you won't be able to do that there's not enough devices you won't be able to do that there's always going to be something right even if you have it all people's just people won't want to do it there'll be there'll be challenges and it's navigating those I think and I think it starts with having your voice heard and for some people that will be finding the confidence to express it finding the words to express it and for other people it will be having that but not having a path to express it and finding the person that has the influence to speak to the right people to get you where you want to be but I think yeah there are always going to be challenges but follow whatever you want to do play whatever role you want to play the options are endless Brilliant thank you well before I wrap up tonight I do want to put in a quick plug so we have these three emerging leader dialogue alumni were our panelists today we have some in the audience as well so if you can see there's a lot of passion there's a lot of wisdom and there's a lot of commitment in the group my plug is that next week the Lowe Institute will open applications for this year's emerging leaders dialogue the 2023 OzPNG network ELD we're hosting the dialogue in Queensland still working out the exact logistics but it promises to be another and I think if you can see if you can see if your eyes peeled if it's not something that applies to you directly try and think of someone that might benefit from the opportunity again we'll be looking for 10 Papua New Guinea and 10 Australian participants under 40 with a connection to the relationship and with a passion for community sports people basically any and all sectors of society so keep your eyes peeled for that next week is there a theme for this use? have you figured it out yet? yes absolutely there is a theme so this year we're going to be exploring what a First Nations foreign policy looks like for Australia and what it means for Australia's relationship with Papua New Guinea and we'll look at that from different angles as well but we really want to capture the momentum behind that conversation in Australia and during reference to the current government's foreign policy pillar of First Nations foreign policy for Australia so that's the theme digital will always be a part of this going forwards but that's the lens that we'll be looking at it if you have questions please speak to me afterwards I'm more than happy to provide more information let me finish by saying thank you to all of you that have joined us and thank you to those watching online as well for those of us here this evening we have some delicious food that's about to be rolled out so please stick around if you can have another couple of drinks continue the conversation and I can hear some tummies rumbling in the audience so rest assured it's on its way and it's delicious so thank you so much for joining us and please join me in thanking our panelists tonight