 Good afternoon Howard Wigg, a very unusual topic and a very dedicated person to talk about that unusual topic, unusual for this program that is. Usually we talk about energy efficiency, LED lamps, and so forth. Today we're going to talk about the food energy nexus. Where do we get our blueberries from, the east coast? Where do we get our tomatoes from? Mexico, sometimes Florida, Lord knows when. Our fruit comes all the way from Florida, even though we're a great cattle ranching venue or meat. Most of it comes from the mainland. Where it could be wrong with this picture when you're thinking about climate change and all of the energy that went into producing that fruit or that food now transporting it all the way to Hawaii. There are many, many ways to address climate change and one of the key, key, key elements in there is changing the way we grow food, where we grow food, and what type of food we eat. So it gives me great pleasure to introduce the famous, in certain circles, Thore, Shin, welcome Thore. Thank you Howard. So you are passionate about many things, one of them being where to grow the food, what type of food to grow, and how to eat it. Please tell us something. So I think I've worked in a lot of areas, a lot of various issues on sustainability, a lot of issues on plastic pollution and waste. And just from the science done on what are the best ways that consumers can make a positive or negative impact on the environment and our climate crisis is what we eat, and how we grow food, and we can talk about solar panels and our entire energy system and all these other things that people talk about, but the one that we can impact the most as individuals at home without much effort or money is what we eat. And so that's why I'm really passionate about talking about food as a way to solve climate change as well as a lot of other interconnected issues. So give us some examples. Where do we start? Yeah, so I mean the number one thing that people don't realize is that animal products, especially when industrially produced, which is about, they say, between 90 to 99 percent of the animal products Americans eat are factory farm and industrially produced. That's one of the worst things for environment and account for about, you know, 45 percent of all greenhouse gas emissions. So it's a pretty large footprint. Let me throw out a statistic and see if I'm right. To raise one pound of beef requires a thousand gallons of water. Yeah, so actually for one pound of beef, the first statistic I saw on that was that it's 5,000 gallons of water and that was in California. So it does depend on the region that it's grown. And of course, factory farming will always be a little bit worse because it's so unnatural. And so just the water alone required is so significant. And what a lot of people don't realize is that the water footprint for beef and other animal products is not in what the animals are drinking really. The first of it comes from growing the food for the animals, which is the corn and soy and most of that being GMO and full of pesticides. So that's why I mentioned interconnectedness because it does connect to so many other environmental and justice issues. Pesticides and herbicides, I believe. Yes, totally. And antibiotics and hormones. And so it's just so, you know, so good for not only animal welfare, which is a big reason to reduce animal consumption. But just, you know, solving our climate crisis and a lot of the health issues associated with what we eat. Now, another word that comes to mind as you speak is methane. What about methane? Yeah, so they say methane is depending on what numbers you look at is about 26 times more powerful than CO2. And it has a longer lasting effect on the environment than CO2. But CO2 carbon dioxide is really the only greenhouse gas that's widely talked about. But, you know, the main source of methane in our greenhouse gas emissions profile from human activity is from growing animals for food. And so it's just really important that we address, you know, this issue specifically because it's one that I have particularly noticed as a sustainability professional that people don't want to talk about. They're still serving factory farm meat at our events. And, you know, people want to talk about plastic straws, but they don't want to talk about food consumption. And they feel it's a personal attack, but really it's not a personal issue. It's just a reality issue. And let's just face what's going on in our environment and what we can best do to solve it. And the connection between the animals we're raising and methane is? Yeah, so the animals we raise release a lot of methane just from being alive. They're burping and farting and they just release a lot of methane. And one cow is, you know, more than a lot of humans. And so, you know, we have seven billion people on planet Earth and that's just the human population. But the amount of land animals we kill alone is above 70 billion animals per year. So people think that there's a human overpopulation issue, which is somewhat true. But really what the deeper issue is, the more problematic thing is the humans eating animals issue. And it's we kill 10 times more animals than humans that even live on planet Earth and the impact of each of those animals having to be fed and all the suffering from the nature perspective and from the animal perspective associated with it is just excessive and it's very unnecessary at the rate in which humans are consuming animal products. And when we look at the seven billion or seven and a half billion people on Earth, you can divide that into two very distinct groups. The rich people, which is you and me, that's about one billion and then the six and a half rest of them. And we rich people in the industrial countries, U.S., Canada, Japan, Western Europe, we consume a heck of a lot more meat generally and do the poorer people on Earth. Yeah, so the more advanced nations will always be consuming more animal products because it becomes accessible to them in a global market. And another issue around this is just like government subsidies. And if you look at where I mean, it's billions of dollars that our U.S. government specifically subsidizes food. And it's all going to essentially it's going to the meat and dairy industries. It's also going to GMO corn and soy, which is the food that's being fed to animals and all the junk food. So, you know, subsidies rarely it's it's I think it's one or two percent go to fruit and vegetable production, let alone organic farming. And so imagine if those subsidies were switched. Because right now they say that the cost of a Big Mac is supposed to be eleven dollars if it wasn't subsidized. And if it if it brought in the negative externalities associated with producing that kind of food. So, yeah, I think that it would be really powerful to shift our economy and say, you know, we're going to subsidize food that's good for the Earth and good for people, make organic fruits and vegetables really cheap, support that kind of farming and then start to slow down the support of the type of farming and food production that's really unsustainable and not going to last us many more generations. And let me throw in two factors here. They're every year there's more and more and more and more money on the face of this Earth. We have some compared to 1950, I think there's 15 times more dollars than there was back then. And I am not an economist. I don't understand how it just continues to grow. But the biggest example of that is China, where under Mao the per capita income was something like 70 dollars a year. There were totally subsistence economy. Now the average income is around six, seven thousand dollars a year. So there's an explosion of middle class people in China, like five hundred million of them, twice our one and a half times our population and as they get richer, what do they want to do? They want to eat more meat. Yeah. Yeah. Well, what's cool about it right now is I know people who, you know, went vegan, vegetarian 40 years ago, and there was no soy milk in the grocery store. That's what they told me, you know, they had to make everything from scratch. But now you see companies like Beyond Meat, you know, and they've had the most successful stock market introduction of their stock starting at twenty five dollars. Now it's a well over a hundred dollars. That's kind of unheard of. And that's a plant based burger and sausage company. Impossible burger is another vegan burger that Google tried to buy for a hundred million dollars. So you see that this is an undeniable trend, and it's really going to be unstoppable because the truth is out there and people recognize that, you know, we can we can prevent most of the chronic diseases that most people die from, like heart disease and diabetes, and we can potentially save our planet. Was just one swift move of deciding we're not going to allow industrial meat and factory farming to be a primary source of food for our for our society, because it's really stealing from our future. And it's just not fair when you look at where our environmental situation is right now. Pretty good. I speak as a very mature person. You know, I won't be on this planet for all that much longer, but you're going to be on you're going to be going strong 50, 60 years from now. Hopefully more. Yeah. And so the two vegetable based meat companies that you mentioned, I believe, well, I know from personal experience, the veggie burgers that you used to have, maybe just me, but you try to eat them and it's like a mushy cardboard. I understand that these new types of meat actually taste like meat. Yeah, they do. And I I come from, you know, a family where we did eat meat, and I chose to not do it from a values perspective. I said, this is not something that I could actually do myself or agree with. And so when I did it, it was just for that reason. But I still like the taste of it, you know? And if it wasn't so terrible for the environment and animals, I probably would still be eating meat. But yeah, it's you you I learned. I was, you know, happily surprised that all the animal products I used to enjoy. I didn't feel like I lost that experience because I still have coconut yogurt, vegan cheeses. I have vegan sausages in my pasta. We, you know, I veggie burgers all the time and they all taste amazing. And I don't, you know, remember ever feeling like, oh, this is like a terrible alternative because it's getting better every year. Yeah. So have you tasted the meats from the two companies? Impossible? Yeah. Yeah. So it had been like over 10 years since I've eaten meat. And it was like so weird. I was at the counter. The counter in Kahala is one of the places that has the impossible burger. And we had to like double check, like, are you sure? Because this looks like really and it tastes really because for me and my friends where we are all vegan and they were like, no, this is the one. We're sure I've had that happen multiple times at restaurants like this really looks like me. And I'm kind of nervous that you gave me the wrong thing. But that's how convincing these things are becoming. And there really is no, it's such a privilege that we can have the same experience and we have these options and choices now. And so I think that's where as individuals and as a society, we have a greater responsibility to take advantage of that privilege and these choices and make the better choices and not live so passively through life. Now I'm getting that there are several outlets for these two types of meat in here in Honolulu. So the Beyond Meat burgers, they're sold like everywhere. You can find them at Safeway even, yeah, but most like down to earth Whole Foods, those places will always have them. But yeah, Safeway now has a ton of plant based meat alternatives in their fridges. Health food stores will always have the most amount of options. But I would definitely recommend for people who still like really like the taste of meat, the Beyond Meat company is good. The Impossible Burger is still kind of rolling out. So they're not as accessible, but there are a handful of restaurants here that sell it in there on their menu. And you would think that that would be a kind of a sales item special beyond the meat. Yeah. Try it out. You're seeing it. I mean, they sell Beyond Meat at Carl's Juniors and they're launching it, they're launching the Impossible Burger at All Burger Kings. And I've seen it like on the Kahala Resort restaurant, like all these random restaurants I go to now have the Beyond Meat burger. It's been everywhere. So it's it's going to continue to blow up and it's going to continue to be accessible and available for people who choose to eat meat or not. But just as an alternative for one of your meals of the day. We've got to take a break. But it sounds like it's everywhere. And the people who invested the IPO money, I think they're getting their their money back. Absolutely. That very cheery note. We need to take a break. Think Kauai Code Green Doreen Dorei Shin back in a moment. Aloha, I'm Stan Osterman, a host here on Think Kauai, a digital media company serving the people of Hawaii. We provide a video platform for citizen journalists to raise public awareness here on the island. We are a Hawaiian nonprofit that depends on the generosity of its supporters to keep on going. We'd be grateful if you go to thinktechkauai.com and make a donation to support us now. Mahalo. Aloha, I'm Dennis Wong, a host here at Think Kauai, a digital media company serving the people of Hawaii. We provide a video platform for citizen journalists to raise public awareness in Hawaii. We are a Hawaiian nonprofit that depends on the generosity of its supporters to keep on going. We'd be grateful if you'd go to thinktechkauai.com and make a donation to support us now. Thanks so much. Good afternoon again, Howard Wig, Code Green, Think Tech Kauai, having a very, very animated conversation with the Ray Shin environmental activist extraordinaire. We've been talking about the food revolution and I had no idea that impossible meat and so forth was getting widespread in Hawaii. I hope the word gets out about that. Now you're making me go out and try this. Yeah, why not? Let's shift topics to the oceans. Here we are, the only state in the nation surrounded by ocean and just a little bit of a personal background. I worked with several other people many, many years ago. We worked with the Coast Guard, H-Power, Hawaii Metal Recycling, a whole bunch of people. And we harvested drift net and tangled up fishing net and all kinds of other debris from the Pacific Northwest Islands brought them to Pearl Harbor. What was that Hawaii Metals Recycling would take all of that junk, ship on the trucks, take it to Hawaii Metal Recycling, shred it up, chop it up into bite-sized chunks and then ship it up to H-Power, burn it, make electricity. So that was one of the first success stories regarding marine debris. And I believe it also started in Oregon and in Massachusetts. Nice. But you have a whole bunch of other things to talk about, but start on your own. Yeah, I think that's a good place to start. I think fishing nets, we know in Hawaii, anyone who's cleaned the beaches here on a regular basis. I'm with Surf Rider Foundation. There's sustainable coastline to Hawaii, plastic-free Hawaii, 808 cleanups. We know that what washes up most, then we say it's over 90 percent. You know, it's virtually all, if you look at the volume, is commercial fishing gear. That's what's washing ashore. There are beaches on the south side or the west side where it's land-based trash, which is always going to be a problem from windblown, trash cans, or just people littering still. But we know that the biggest problem facing our beaches is commercial fishing gear. And like you said, it's fishing nets. And these things are coming in mass. You know, at Kuhuku, we'll get 7,000 pounds in an hour and a half for the 100 volunteers. With the same number of volunteers in the same amount of time, on the same day in Kailua, you'll get 300 pounds. So you see the vast difference you get both are marine debris. Kailua is going to see mostly microplastics. But in both cases, it's almost all commercial fishing gear. So fishing nets, ropes, buoys, and hagfish traps, anything aquaculture related. So something that's really important that we've all been raising more awareness about because of what we see statistically on our beaches is that we always say with plastic, because it's something that people are becoming aware of using less plastic. And the straw thing is such a big thing because of that video of the turtle with the straw stuck in its nose. But if you really look at the volume of what's impacting our oceans, they say in the ocean, about half is fishing nets alone, just nets. So if we're saying refuse plastic and reduce plastic, we also have to recognize the equivalent solution when it comes to the commercial fishing industry, which is to refuse commercial fish and reduce and or reduce the amount we're demanding because it's the supply and demand economy. And companies respond to that. And so we've seen it historically work with every other social and environmental movement. So we know that this supply and demand effort will really make a positive solution just as it has with plastic. We have to do the same with fish and seafood here. And I wonder if the impossible meat people are trying to create a fish equivalent of any sort or a crab equivalent. Yeah, there are tomato-based sushi's. I've never tried them, but I've heard really good things. There are fish filets that companies like Guardian makes. All these things are available in the freezer section at your local health food store, like down to Earth or Whole Foods. I'm sure in terms of alternatives to fish, they'll just keep getting better. I don't think they're as far along as meat alternatives. But there is, Honolulu has a brand new vegan sushi spot. It's quite fancy and impressive. And it's called Tane Vegan. They come from San Francisco, where they have a long line out their door every single day. And it's just as popular in Honolulu now. It's super amazing, very impressive. Is that in Waikiki? No, it's in Honolulu, just off of Macaulay and Baritania area. Tane, T-A-N-E. It's really good. So there's always gonna be an increase in alternatives, but at the very least, reducing what you are eating or at least only eating fish if it's from a small boat fisherman or if it's from a place like local Ia. If you are still committed to eating it, I think there are some alternatives. There's just really not that many. Yeah. And what's your stand on aquaculture? Like farmed fishing, you mean? I think from an environmental perspective, it's objectively better just because you're not gonna get the bycatch, which is just a loss of wildlife. I say for every one targeted fish, like a tuna, you're gonna get five other animals killed in a traditional commercial fishing process. So I think aquaculture prevents that, but it also has its own issues because a lot of it is GMO-fed. So you're gonna get that GMO corn and soy that they feed the animals, which has all of its own environmental issues. So I'm not an expert on that, but I do know that there's pros and cons to farmed fish. I'm sure there are good ways to do it, but it is kind of like an equivalent of factory farming. So there's definitely some consequences to consider before we rapidly shift. And I think that one thing to consider is people are always looking for, like when it comes to beef, everyone wants to just eat grass-fed beef, but the reality is that's way more expensive. And even though it's a little better from certain perspectives, it's still not feasible to sustain the current consumption rate with that style of raising meat. And it's the same with fish. It's really the consumption rate we're at when it comes to animal products is just too high. There are good alternatives, but not at the rate at which we're eating it. So no matter what, as a society, we have to reduce the demand and the consumption rate. And then I think we can look at what alternatives exist that do align with our values. But then you get into that, that S word, sacrifice. We must sacrifice. And we're in a boom economy. Everything's rosy from us, middle-class standpoint. And nobody would like to sacrifice. And unlike yourself and myself, most people don't think that we should launch a World War II-type effort to completely turn the economy around. So I get back to good-tasting alternatives. And another thing that occurred to me is the plastic food nexus. When you go around the perimeter of a supermarket, you have your produce over here, and a produce is just sitting there. You put it in one little clear plastic bag, and your meats and everything are over there, and they're just very, very, very simply packaged. You go into the middle of the supermarket with all the processed food, and you get the exterior packaging, and then the interior packaging, and more packaging. So the closer you are to eating raw food, the less packaging, the less plastic you have. Yeah, I think the zero-waste movement gives a clear signal also to having a more plant-based diet, because when you go into that, you realize that whole foods and whole fruits and vegetables, that's the stuff that you can get without packaging. And so, yeah, it's kind of all interconnected, and that's kind of what I realized throughout my personal journey, becoming an environmentalist, starting with plastic and not using water bottles and bringing my own utensil, and then realizing maybe I should go vegan and just kind of continuing down this path. You just realize that everything's interconnected, and when you do one thing, it kind of automatically leads into another, and it becomes more of an effortless lifestyle, because you're in alignment with your values, you're much happier, you're making good choices, you're probably shopping more at farmer's markets and local co-ops or health food stores, so it ends up feeling really, really good on top of, you know, once you get through the stage where you have to put a little bit of effort into changing your lifestyle. And you mentioned the word co-op, right, we have a co-op in town. We have a co-op, it's called Kukua Market. It's the only co-op in Honolulu, and it started in the 70s by some idealistic environmentalists at the time. Right now, you know, Amazon and Whole Foods, they are pushing out places like Kukua Market and down to Earth. That's the most recent reports I've been getting. They're both struggling. These are our local health food stores. So I feel, you know, all of this, what we're talking about, consumption patterns, you know, pushing out of local businesses, this all connects to, you know, how does our culture of capitalism and convenience, you know, weigh down on our values and kind of suppress our values from coming to the surface. So that's why I think changing our lifestyle so that they're out of the status quo, it might make you or other people uncomfortable a little bit to be zero waste and eat more vegan and do all these things, but we need to move away from our current culture because our current culture and government and economic system have gotten us into a crisis, a climate crisis, health crisis, social crisis. So we need to try other things because what we've been doing, it's really not working. And if we don't change now, yesterday, you know, it's, you know, where do we find hope for our future? And our children's future. Yeah. And grandchildren's future. Yeah, and something I tell people is like, you know, we inherited this culture. It's not like we're born into it. Nobody asked us, hey, do you want to use plastic every day and eat factory or farm to meet? Or do you want this, you know, like eat from an organic farm? Like people didn't really give us choices for the most part. We just got, we inherited this culture. It's very unsustainable. So it's gonna take us some effort to get to our alternative lifestyle, but I think it's imperative that we do so. And a little related factor, Japan and Western Europe have approximately the same lifestyle that we do. They're just as wealthy per capita income as we are. Western Europe, I think, uses about half as much energy per capita as do we in Japan, about a third as much energy per capita. Yeah. And I think that really shows how people in the United States, it's this American culture of, you know, more, more is better and people eat more here. We get sick more, you know, we drive bigger cars and, you know, it's just very excessive. And so I think we can look at advanced countries who are healthier and more sustainable than ours and say like, you know, how can we shift to, you know, emulate these countries that maybe we should become a little bit more like? And on a very cheery, very final note, when we eat more like you, we look more like you, we are, we have an obesity epidemic and we see little kids, you know, five, six-year-old kids that are already getting overweight and if you went to their home and watch what they eat. Oh, yeah, you'd see immediately. Yeah, I saw that it's 68% of Americans are obese or overweight and that's just, you know, too much. I think so. Health is also a big benefit to all of these things. Big benefit and on that, very cheery note. We must bid fond of due. Thank you so much, Dorey. See you next time, Howard Wigg. Code green, think, pick, away.