 we are recording what's up everybody drew here that anxiety guide calm back with Holly how's it going Holly yeah pretty good pretty good pretty good so it's the day of the Thanksgiving here in the US I just got done doing like an hour with Billy and now I'm gonna do some time with you and it's podcast day for me so we we're going to do for those of you following along with us reading hope and help for your nerves or what's your version of a cult you have the different self-help for your nerves if you're following along the book with us we are up to chapter 7 which is cure of the oh it's backwards never mind cure of recurring nervous attacks so that that's a chapter we're gonna go over today and we usually start every one of these with like this is a big chapter we say it on every chapter this is an insignificant this is an insignificant you know admittedly I'm gonna say this one might be there are some really important things about first fear and second fear in this but I'm not gonna call it like the most important chapter of the book because she just kind of goes through a bunch of symptoms it's kind of like the same as the chapter before in a way a little bit yeah I think the one before we were you know we talked about truly accepting and floating and facing and all that stuff and this I think she starts to put it into practice yeah all right well you have to do it with the palpitations or skin you know blah blah blah blah she goes through those but that's important because lots of people do say like I get the theory but how right how do you do it or or those specific questions like I understand I have to accept but how can you accept like skipped heartbeats how can you accept nausea blah blah blah so we'll go through it screen just black down on me okay so chapter 7 cure of recurring nervous attacks the first thing that I highlighted was for me under the panic spasms as already mentioned fear can produce a state of constant tension or it can take the form of intense recurring spasms she calls them spasms of panic yeah which I think is different than a panic attack right I don't know I just think it's an old-fashioned word in it is it's funny when I read spasms I kind of feel like it's that that's that quick flash she uses flash all the time the flash of panic so I think she might be talking about that but the point is she's acknowledging here that if you're dealing with this all the time and you're constantly sensitized to it you you can just be in a constant state of tension or on that hair trigger where almost anything is going to cause panic quickly yeah yeah so that was the first note that I made where she's kind of acknowledging that and I think so if you are dealing with this sort of thing and you just feel like I think there's an important distinction to make here people who say that they have anxiety 24-7 or they are panicking 24-7 I would say that maybe they are not panicking 24-7 but they are in a heightened state yeah yeah I would have I would have one of those people that used to say when I first like got ill with it you know I was when I was very young I would have probably told you that I had a panic attack that lasted eight months you know I mean like it's because it was it was eight months of sheer just hell you know and it seemed like I was but I think actually probably it was what it had to be it was panic attack anxiety anxiety anxiety anxiety you know I mean so yeah and also what I learned last year or the year before whenever I had that sort of setback when I was pregnant it was just a couple of weeks but in my I think in itself that time distortion is kind of anxiety yes it's so easy for you to feel like you've been in this terrible way for ages that you'll be in this terrible that you're like it all day long 24-7 and that you'll be like it for ages as well or like you know eight months have been absolutely helpful me and then if you'd actually like kept a diary or something you'd have looked back and like oh and then I did this and I went here and I remember that was a good day and yeah yeah sure even a diary is actually kind of important as well it's not a bad thing to do or even within a given day you may feel like I've been in a panic all day long but in reality you could probably look and say well I brushed my teeth for two minutes and I didn't you know that was seem mindless I really wasn't panicking when I was doing that but she's acknowledging this I think and what creates that sort of reality distortion in or the time distortion because you're always at that elevated level like you know right now I'm sitting here and I'm completely relaxed I'm sure you're feeling the same way or maybe not because you have a one-year-old but you know there's I'm just complete I would not describe myself as in a state of anxiety right now but when you are sensitized all the time it feels like you're just constantly anxious yeah because you're so aware of when you are right you're just aware of how you're feeling all the time but kind of like it just it's just a constant yeah back loop of how I'm feeling and you're looking for it as well so yeah look at you know I mean I'll sit here now we're not looking for how no if I really go looking I'm like actually my foot's really uncomfortable yeah I get it yeah I couldn't care less so I feel right now it's not an issue in my head in any way so and I think that we're almost in a state so maybe it's better to try and just reframe the way you're thinking or the way you're you know self-assessing say well instead of I'm feeling anxious 24-7 or I'm in a panic 24-7 I started to think about it in these terms as I'm almost in a state of pre pre panic or pre anxiety all the time you know where any moment and she goes on to say that where she and I highlighted what she wrote your nerves have become so sensitized that they discharge panic instantly at the slightest cause yeah yeah so you're always you're at that heightened state where just about anything could should put you over the edge and now you are in an elevated anxiety state or even a panic attack I remember driving a long to I was driving to Manchester and my I was driving I was like 17 and my boyfriend at the time he was a Liverpool football club and he was listening to the radio of like a football game and they scored a goal and he went yes and that sent me into just like the biggest panic attack and I was like having a big good I'm just like how dare you what are you doing to me you know careful and everything sorry my friends are you that's alright no and yeah so like even someone like cheering at a football like score like sent me into just like the worst panic that's how and I was sort of but I thought I was okay I was driving I was driving on the motorway yeah no because we just wound up I mean it's when and when you're so tense like that it's like you know it's like when you preload a spring you know you load the spring and bam when you let go it's to all the energy in the spring is dissipated so yeah I get it I remember having that happen just with him as well like imagine he must have been like what it wasn't like he screamed out of the blue you're actually listening to you know the game so you know it's it's so strange I can remember having that happen I think we mentioned this in one of the ones we did last year but it happening to me just driving along and when the sun would go behind a cloud so it would be very sunny out then all of a sudden it's not because the clouds you know like earth and and that would trigger like all of a sudden I would be bam I'd be into panic mode or heading right to that level seven eight nine you know it's or panic yeah who the hell knows you just so wound up and ready or like the phone ringing could be a panic trigger for me back in those days or anything I remember having um it was so silly because it's smartphones were first sort of making the scene and I think I have like a palm trio or some ridiculous early generation smartphone and it had like oh I can I can set alerts for like the weather and like ice hockey scores because I'm a hockey fan and and so every morning at like whatever time it was I get like a little weather text or something and it got to the point where I had to turn that off because I would dread it like oh my god I'm barely holding it together and the freaking weather text is going to come in and it would put me over the edge so yeah so I wasn't panicking 24 seven but I was close and that's what she talks about here yeah yeah so she talks about the out of the blue thing I don't know if you if you notice that part this is why panic spasms may often seem to come unbiden and out of the blue okay like we don't seem to and I hear that all the time like I don't know why I was I was just sitting there and suddenly I started to panic and you have to really think about that were you really just sitting there or are you in that heightened state wound up like a spring all the time just waiting for the next attack to happen yeah yeah because you know a cloud covering the sun or someone cheering a football score like that's not stuff that's panic triggerable really in the real world you know that's not you know I mean our ancestors in cavemen times wouldn't have been like oh no the clouds oh no right one so so yeah that that proves that you are not sort of in a normal normal state right if you're finding that you have panic that comes out of the blue it's probably because you're in that you're you're worried about it and you're that heightened state of awareness about it so this is all good so what comes next analyzing fear two separate fears I I highlighted the first sentence there cure lies in desensitization and there is no doubt that the key to desensitization learns and learning how to cope with panic it's pretty much like yeah the basis of everything even outside of her work is the basis of exposure and you know CBT and that sort of stuff is right there that's essentially learning how to cope with with panic what's the sentence again she says she starts talking about the two separate first fear and second fear and she says the cure lies in desensitization and there is no doubt that the key to decent desensitization lies in learning how to cope with panic yeah absolutely so instead of and I think it says it right there you know that hole you have to face it instead of avoid it or run from it like you don't get better by not panicking you actually get better by panicking as ridiculous as that sounds and she says it right in that sense so and I think it's so important because I know people are working really hard on their exposures and stuff and it's really important to just make it's like that subtle thing that makes such a big difference not panicking and being feeling fine when you're out and about is great but that is not like the that's not the work that you're you're doing you're going the idea of the exposure is to go somewhere that makes you panic because you're you want to put you're trying to trigger it you're trying to bring it on and so bring it on then it's just like a sure way of making yourself panic so you then you can learn how to deal with it you're just I mean if your panic's just coming on really nearly out of anything then fine maybe you don't even need to work on specific things in exposure you just need to work on when you're feeling panic and going like okay great I'm panicking yeah I can practice to say okay great I'm panicking yeah we're halfway there because it's practice and actually I did uh this is funny because I did a little one minute video late last week I think it's sort of addressing that because somebody had asked me and by the way well I'll link the Facebook group if you're not in it get in it just like I said in the one with Billy um it's it's just a good discussion group to be in so somebody had asked if I can't I see all these great exposure videos people are getting out and doing exposure in the group and she asked well what if I'm still homebound I can't go out so how am I supposed to do exposure and the point is like you just said the point of exposure is not to teach yourself how to go to the mall it's to teach yourself how to deal with panic and the anxiety symptoms so if that's happening in your living room right then by all means that's your exposure exactly but if just sitting in your living room thinking about going to the ball makes you panic then that's your exposure sit there and do that it's okay so there's no right or wrong in where you're supposed to be desensitizing yourself the object of the game is to learn how to she says learn how to cope with your panic and it doesn't matter where that happens so it doesn't matter I'll add something to that because when I was in my sort of final sort of like stage of recovery I I was actually in touch with a really good um psychologist in New York actually um and he like I sort of I don't know why he took me on as a sort of pity case and um he just let me email him and um he would email me back with just like this just the most amazing sort of insight and stuff and so he I would say to him like panic doesn't stop me doing anything because at this stage I was doing everything I was traveling I was flying I was working I was doing anything but I was just still in this constant you know still having to put up with all of this this stuff and so I was like how can I do exposure when you know everything's making me panic and he was just like well there you go like you just have to learn and he that was what he taught me he was just like sorry I'm saying like a lot and I'm sorry we got really annoyed hey you say like as much as you want you're willing to find the exact sentence that I would like to say I didn't know how to bring on my panic because it seemed quite random and kind of quite constant as well and I was getting out on a bounce so I was just like well I can do everything but I just do it really badly because I'm just feeling terrible all the time and I hadn't really understood that thing of it's not to try and do things without panic and it's to try and panic which I was doing but I wasn't accepting the panic and facing the panic when it happened and it's so like subtle but such a massive difference and that's why I was white-knuckling through everything because I was doing everything I was going to the mall I was going on aeroplanes going to work and I was at work just like in a complete state I was sniffing nail varnish to try and you know I get it saying other than what I was and um all I needed to do was sit there and feel that panic and be like oh okay it's panic attack right it's not so bad it's going to be over yeah yeah that's so true and and that's I mean it's very much we saw one of those I mean I'm duplicating a little bit of what I just talked about with Billy not that you're going to see it in a row anyway but we actually saw a light bulb moment did you notice there's a post in the group last night Gemma who uh yeah wound up having to do a little bit of a forced exposure and you could see when she got back home and thought about what had happened she suddenly had I even posted the light bulb gift you know like as there's a little bit of a joke but she suddenly had that that moment of insight that said oh right I get it now I'm supposed to panic to get better you know she'd actually have been retreating like from the panic every time it happened and wasn't I wasn't sure well how come this isn't working well that's why that's why yeah so yeah Claire Week says in this chapter she says if every time one of these panic spasms panic attacks has been coming on you've been trying to control it yeah you know like keep it down or you've just been like retreating from it and just go like oh my god oh my god it's a panic attack then you're just adding fear to it right that is you know in all sense this post is wrong like and you need to not try and control it not retreat from it and just let it happen look at it examine it like is it so bad you know yeah just learn that it's not and she sort of talks about this in in this chapter it's not the symptoms it's your fear of the symptoms it's the fear that you fear in it's not the symptoms could be anything if your toes started tingling would it cause you as much sort of distress well it would I could tell you that for me when I was at my worst yeah it absolutely would so like any change in bodily state would would be an issue you know anything like like my toe is tingling oh it would send me into that that bad spot and so she you know as moving on in the chapter she actually starts to talk about that the two separate fears the first fear and the second fear which I think is the first time the book that she starts to bring that up I think so when Holly just says it's not the symptoms it's the way you react to the symptoms it's your fear of the symptoms that causes the problem so like agoraphobia I know most people don't if you're dealing with agoraphobia you're having a hard time leaving the house you're not afraid of being out of the house you're afraid of how you feel when you go out of the house so agoraphobia is really fear of us of a symptom attack than anything else it's not a fear of where you're gonna be so the and she describes this doctor weeks describes it as first fear and second fear so the first we can talk about that for a second I guess yeah first fear she says I'll explain these two separate fears more fully everyone experiences first fear from time to time it's the fear that comes reflexively almost automatically in response to some threatened danger it's normal in intensity we understand it we accept it yeah this is just same as someone going boom and jumping out on you and you complete exactly and then you're afraid suddenly you have that flash of fear or you're driving along and it looks like somebody's about to run into you with their car you know that quick but that's normal nobody questions that it's response the adrenaline in your body you can feel it there for a minute or two sure sure your heart sort of going like yeah yeah wow that was that was close yeah exactly so and we come to expect that and so that is the standard flight or fight response right fight or flight response there's some danger we see the danger we respond to it and then the danger passes and the fear dissipates that's perfectly normal no one would question that but the the deal is he she goes on to say we cope with the danger the fear fast passes however the flash of first fear that comes to a sensitized person so if you're living at that height in state always worried about the next attack the flash the flash of first fear that comes to a sensitized person in response to danger is not normal in intensity it can be so overwhelmingly intense so electric in its swiftness so out of proportion to the danger causing it that a sensitized person cannot dismiss it indeed he indeed he recoils from it and as he does this he adds the second fear the fear of the fear so and and that those danger signals you know when you're in that height in state it doesn't have to be an a hungry bear or a lion or someone with a gun or anything like that it could be your toe tingling you misinterpret as danger bam you get the flash of first fear and then you are afraid of the fear that you just you're that's the fear of the fear so yeah yeah and I think she describes it pretty well so when you're in that height in state just about anything can cause the first flash and then the second flash happens that's why the cloud covering the sun up someone cheering the band that's the same as someone that's at first right it is it is it's inappropriate it's not right but in that height in state yes the cloud cover or the goal in the football match becomes the same as someone jumping out with a knife there's nothing you can do about that first fear it's okay the more tense you are the more likely you are that's exactly right like get that whoosh yep yep nothing you can do about it that's your amigdala I believe yes yeah this is sort of it's sort of autonomic yes it is true and that's the auto one and it goes and so that a general is in your body there's nothing you can never like learn yourself not to not to happen that's there to save your life you know that's super important by the way because I think we even had somebody posted in the group about that they feel like they're making progress but I can't remember who it was but whenever he gets that feeling he he in it he almost involuntarily he coughs covers his throat does that thing it's just become a habit right we all develop them and he knows that it's a safety ritual he's trying to escape that sensation that just hit him that that startle he called it a startle which is which is really good a really good explanation I think a startle and like well how do I stop doing that you don't stop doing that you never stop doing that but what will happen is as you go down the road fewer things will cause that flash that start yeah so you're right you cannot program that away so don't judge yourself as not making progress if you still get that quick huh you know that quick fear it's gonna happen it's just gonna happen this the secret is once it happens what do you do yeah that's where the whole key lies is so when you feel that woof yeah well it's beating and all of that stuff people that are in this sense they're states and suffering anxiety sure all those sensations they feel the whoosh and they think oh my god and that oh my god that instant fear and recoil from it all the sort of like try and keep this under control right that just triggers more adrenaline because your brain interprets that you're in danger because why would so recoil in and scared of something if it wasn't dangerous that the fear response itself the racing heart the dizziness to whatever your symptom is a fear which are normal then gets interpreted as itself being dangerous yeah it is not right so the fear takes on a life of its own it's not the hungry lion that's chasing you anymore it's the racing heart itself that becomes the source of the fear so the secret to success there is to stop the second fear but if that happens you have that flash of fear for me i'll use myself as an example you know the sun goes behind the cloud as i'm driving i get that quick you know that that quick thing and it's an intense flash oh my god the right that's okay the fact that that happened is would be fine the better way for me to have handled that would have been to just relax and understand like oh okay that's that's that's the flash now i just have to make sure i don't add to it and just just chill and understand all right my heart's gonna race i might feel a little weird for a minute or two don't add to it don't don't do anything cough if i have to like the person in the group does whatever my only reaction is let it happen understand why i did it up i'm doing my ritual yaki who did a video and she said she's got a bracelet and she wrote don't add don't add yeah the rubber band that was so brilliant yeah don't add as a reminder she doesn't snap the rubber band she it's just a reminder that says oh don't add any fear to this yeah yeah oh my god if i had a tattoo like i wanted to find a tattoo that i could just like put on my wrist don't add panic stop it just stop yeah i didn't do that i wind up putting a pineapple so um anyway yeah so that's the the flash of the first fear which is normal and then adding the second fear is really where like the disorder starts to be defined right or starts to develop so what does she write about this um he adds he adds the fear of the first flash he may be much more concerned with the physical feeling okay this is it indeed he may be much more concerned with the physical feeling of panic than with the original danger so yeah yes the panic so when you have a panic disorder which can lead to things like your gorophobia the the panic itself is what you are afraid of yeah so one when that sun went behind the cloud and then you went into the and then you went then you weren't still continuously scared of the sun going behind the cloud no it didn't care about the sun anymore that you were having a panic attack right i completely took what got me was the change in light and so if i i can actually think that through because it seems so vivid to me still something is wrong like something just what just happened like what happened not what happened to the sun i'm not a caveman i didn't think that a dragon ate the sun but like it was a change of state and it would lead me to what just happened something just happened why did the sun get suddenly different is it there's something wrong with my eyes am i something wrong with my brain or did something literally happen that made the sky go dark or something like that's the first thought that i would have and it's irrational because i was over sensitized and then within seconds i didn't give a rat's ass about the sun anymore i was all about what was going on inside after that so that was just a trigger and then i just turned completely inward and i was all worried about what was happening in my brain in my body and what am i thinking oh my god this feeling like i'm not seeing right my eyes my my whatever and so i the sun became irrelevant it didn't matter anymore so very very tough when my boyfriend shared the Liverpool score in a goal it wasn't i didn't think i was in danger it was just he made he made me jump yeah it's like someone saying boo right so it took me by surprise because i was wound up like a coil it took me by surprise and i was like and then i went into the and then i felt awful and so well i felt like yeah anxiety and that was what then continued me off into like this huge panic attack it wasn't that i thought i was in danger because the whole board and someone cheered no the cheering is irrelevant right exactly and then we jump in and having those sensations in my body made me go like oh my god so i think we're both describing here is a situation where there's an external trigger your boyfriend cheering the goal or for me the sun or whatever it is or a blast of cold air the wind blows could have been anything right but that trigger so it's an external trigger that then turns you completely inward and that's when bad things happen is when you're focused completely inward unless you say no sometimes there isn't a noticeable external trigger right the trigger could be internal also so your trigger you could be focused inward and triggered by feeling one skipped heartbeat that was me i would get pvc and one internal trend then bam it would start it so that trigger can be external and then you turn inward or you could already be in could be a thought could be hot that's exactly right i never really dealt with that so much i don't know if you did but i know people will say like oh the negative thought started and that would get me down the road i never dealt with thought triggers too much but um but yeah so the trigger could be external then you turn inward and the snowball starts rolling down the hill or you could already be inward find an inward trigger and the snowball starts rolling down the hill which is really insidious when you think about it yeah it's tough to get out of this nonsense whatever the trigger is is kind of irrelevant right that's what's important to remember so like if your trigger is going to the mall right like just use it as a tool to make yourself panic to learn how to panic yes and this is why we can't go down a list of um i know some of the most popular things that i've ever seen that like billy and i've done together he's done on his channel top symptoms top 10 list of symptoms anxiety symptoms and top anxiety triggers people love to talk about their triggers and you can't go through life trying to eliminate each trigger don't make a list of your triggers and try and eliminate them all because anything can be a trigger that's not the point you know does it's irrelevant what the trigger is totally irrelevant yeah it's your response to that yeah and kind of like why you got ill in the foot why you got panic disorder in the first place right kind of irrelevant i'll tell you why because your brain learns some really bad habits it's just bad cognitive habits we can learn bad habits about eating and sleeping and wearing ugly clothes but we can we can also learn bad cognitive habits that's how you got panic disorder yeah it doesn't matter if your panic attack was caused by hormones or trauma or anything it doesn't matter the getting better bit this recovery bit of getting better from spending your life terrified of the way you feel and like the next attack that you're going to have that's what's important and you get better the same way it doesn't it doesn't matter what the cause was because i think when you look at this chapter and talking about that flash and the first fear second fear how to deal with it you realize that a panic attacks is not panic disorder so i've heard so many people say that too well how do you why do you think you have panic disorder because you have panic attacks no a panic attack is not an anxiety disorder it's just a physical event so it's the reaction it's the second fear that that's a problem so she goes on to say i mean oh my goodness here it is again i don't know if you um a couple paragraphs down a nervously ill person has only to think of being trapped for first fear to flash instantly oh my god yeah a big time that was my right being trapped yeah um what of it yeah to this he immediately adds plenty of second fear as he thinks oh my goodness here it is again so i can't stand that i'll make a food of myself these are the internal thoughts of the snow when i say the snowball starts rolling downhill and you can't stop it as soon as you get into oh my god oh my goodness what if you know what what if what if oh my god that's that's when you're in second fear territory so this hovering threat holds such a menace that at the peak of panic the sufferer thinks he can no longer think clearly or act calmly so it distorts your your view of yourself right that's the hard i think that's the hardest thing i mean if you could think logically and rationally when you're having a panic attack i think it would be quite easy to you know yeah you just oh yeah i just remember to like accept it and then do that you know nobody would have panic disorder yeah exactly or for more than two weeks right it'll be all over yeah you go oh yeah i just need to remember to do that yeah because you're obviously you're all your sort of rationale and logic and stuff goes out the window and that's kind of the hardest bit that's why it's good to maybe write something down and yeah tattoo it on your wrist or whatever yeah the the rubber band no yeah don't add you know so and what she's talking about in this paragraph too is you know so you know whatever triggers this poor guy something triggers him and he goes into oh here it is again oh no oh my god and he begins to have panic and it mounts and all the symptoms comedy starts to feel worse and worse and he thinks he can act clearly and suddenly you're in that mode and we've all been there if you're watching this you have been there that like i gotta get out of this i need i need to escape you run out of the room you go back home you run to your car you get out of whatever you need to do that you're trying to escape that situation that's a mistake and it's what leads to that shrinking of your circle like your lifestyle gets smaller and smaller because you start avoiding things you know i had a panic attack in a restaurant so i cannot go back to a restaurant but that's a mistake because it wasn't the restaurant that caused it it was it was how you added that second fear and reacted to your symptoms and your sensations that's the problem yeah and it doesn't matter what caused it doesn't matter if it was the restaurant right it doesn't matter but but if you associate it and it's normal our brains do that if a dog bites you you will become afraid of a dog it's normal so if you have a panic attack in a restaurant you can easily start avoiding restaurants but you're missing the point it's because you can avoid a restaurant if you want but then you'll have a panic attack sitting in your backyard and then you won't want to go in your backyard and then you'll have one in the shower and then you won't want to take a shower so yeah yeah yeah if you start avoiding it you then it's dangerous isn't it because your the world begins to shrink and that's when you start to get toward agoraphobia and that sort of stuff so it's so important to understand what she's talking about he doesn't understand that it is all these oh my goodness is all these what ifs that build up into what he calls a crisis so it's it's not the restaurant or the wherever it's it's what it's what's going on your head that causes it um if he could realize that his body is not a machine it has a limited capacity to produce adrenaline that therefore the first fear can only come in a wave and must always die down but he waits and he does not fall into the trap of stoking but only if he waits and he doesn't fall into the fear the trap of stoking it with second fear yeah so if you have that flash of fear and an adrenaline dump you aren't just stoking it aren't you the more you're just stoking that far just adding adrenaline you're adding more so just strictly from a chemical and physiological standpoint you know if the guy jumps out of the dark alley and points a knife at you you're going to have that dump your heart's going to race you're going to be dizzy all those things will happen normally whatever you give him you give him your wallet he goes away or you punch him in the nose and he goes away either way the danger goes away it's gone your adrenaline will dissipate so after five or six minutes you'll start to feel normal again same thing happens in panic so when you have that flash uh oh my heart just skipped a beat if you just my heart just skipped a beat just let it go don't add it don't fight it don't oh my god don't what if same thing will happen you might have a huge adrenaline dump and feel shitty for five or seven minutes but it'll go away if you don't but if you fight it you're just going to keep shoveling more adrenaline on top of the old adrenaline yeah definitely one thing she doesn't well I think our versions are different slightly because I haven't got half of what you're saying oh one thing that I think is really important is that everyone talks about like the physical symptoms that happen in a panic attack but I think what's really important and that I discovered is just that the negative thoughts and the what ifs and oh my god and like that's all part of it and you have to treat that as a symptom as well you cannot trust any of your thoughts you have when you're anxious if you're going oh maybe my heart's do you think my heart's okay if you're feeling anxious when you're thinking that just don't even listen to those thoughts those thoughts are absolutely not to be trusted and you can't engage with them because that is the equivalent of stoking the physical yes yes thoughts treat them as a symptom yep they are like you are not thinking rationally when you're having a panic attack or when you're anxious so don't expect your thoughts to the what if thoughts why are you giving them any sort of respect because oh your whole logic's gone out the window so just ignore everything you're thinking which is so hard to do but that's very true but I think that is so important it's more important than the physical symptoms and so we and we've seen it you and I both you can talk about the physical symptoms all day long every day 24 seven does anybody get this does anybody feel this what about this symptom this sensation my shoulder hurts my toes tingling my noses whatever it doesn't matter in the end it is a cognitive issue so it's what's going on in your head that matters more than anything your body feels I can't breathe my heart is racing my legs are rubbery it feels like I'm going to pass out all those things don't matter it's what's going on here that actually matters more than anything else and so I always say like don't engage in it in a dialogue do not engage those thoughts so the what you might be you can't really stop sometimes the what if thought from coming in what if I'm having a stroke okay all you're the best you can do and this is where like your meditation learning how basic meditation skills come in let the thought come in let it go do not answer yourself ever you should not be having a conversation in your head no conversation do not engage with those thoughts because they will screw you up the way I see it is like if you're trying to like say your husband comes in and he's really drunk and you're like really mad at them and you're trying to talk to him about something yeah like proper that needs to be sorted out right just don't even bother like you can't have a conversation or you're down the pub and someone's trying to talk about politics and they're really drunk it's not going to happen there's no rationality there wait till they're sober and then talk to them then do you know exactly just have to wait it out and it's the same thing you can't have a logical discussion and like maybe that and I'll try like this don't even bother it's like your brain is completely drunk just ignore it when you're sober up and just have have a think with yourself later you know and what sounds kind of crazy too is I often hear people say like self-talk you know people talk about self-talk a lot like well when you're in a panic situation use your self-talk you're reassure yourself I'm okay I'm okay no believe it or not I really think that's a bad idea because you are engaging in an inner dialogue because the minute your brain says what if I'm having a heart attack and you start well know my heart is fine the next thought will probably will but what if it's not there's you cannot ever know and have you heard about this new test right and you can't ever you can't win an argument with yourself when the answer is always what if so your emotional terrified side is doing what if and your night nice logical rational intelligence side is saying it's not a heart attack but then it's just another what if but what if what and what if it's always valid like there always could be what what if there's a dinosaur next door about to smash through my building could be you know not likely but it could be that's the thing you have to learn an argument with yourself you have to learn to be okay with the sort of worst case scenario that your brain is telling you like what if this isn't a panic attack what if it's a heart attack okay and just let that voice go and you'll learn over time as you get good at these techniques that voice will you can make it go away to a certain extent the thought will come in you give it no credence and the thought goes away but even when you can't do it that well essentially just imagine the the what I used to imagine was it was somebody standing next to me just screaming as loud as they could in my ear and I would just look ahead don't look at them just it just became remember I don't know if you guys had over there Snoopy Charlie brand the peanuts cartoons and yeah they would do I know I'm dating myself a little bit but with the peanuts animated like Christmas specials and stuff would be on tv here and the peanuts gang was just kids so whenever you heard an adult in their world you didn't hear the adult was speaking and they would never you wouldn't hear words all you heard was what what what what what what what what that was an adult speaking it was not legible it was not words and for a reason it was all about a kid's world yeah that's what I would imagine like not just drawing at me like having a heart attack having a stroke and then this time it said you really went to the hospital I would literally think of the person screaming in my ear just hearing what what what what like unintelligible go to hell f you yeah yeah yes and that is what mattered it wasn't self-talk or reassurance or any of those things it was just letting it go in one ear and out the other and paying it no matter the drunk guy in the pub runs in about some doesn't it's irrelevant and it's so hard I know people are probably saying yes sounds really good but how the hell do you do that sometimes you can do it either by learning to just ignore that and not engaging in any inner dialogue sometimes you can do it by replacing those thoughts with other thoughts but but that's not an inner dialogue you're not refuting what you're hearing so essentially it's when that that voice in my head is screaming but this time it might really be a heart attack my response is I wonder you know if the rangers want last night yeah right or you know you this probably a stroke I could feel my face tingling it means you're having a stroke drew my response to that might be like I really love like pepperoni on pizza do you know does it make sense like it's not and I'm not saying it's not a stroke it's not a tumor it's you know it's it's a completely different thought because trying to reassure yourself is the same as like being sort of going like oh my god what if it is saying like no it isn't because of this and this and this yeah doesn't matter that's engaging don't engage with it inner dialogue so either just quiet don't no response if you can do it or in the beginning probably until you learn that you could just replace that thought with a completely different thought and I had a therapist way back when that made me write a list on my phone I still have it in my notes app of things that I liked and I remember thinking like what do you mean things I like like and she's like no not nirvana just like tell me what you like about your car and I had heated seats in the car she's like write that down you know what else do you like like stupid little things like pizza crust or like stupid little things that I liked and I would literally try and replace the bad thoughts with like thinking about the heated seat in my car and that worked until I've got better it's just like I don't want to turn it into wow wow wow wow wow yeah trolleybrand adult voice so I think I did it in the end by just kind of doing the well like making that leap of faith as well of just like I know everything in my sort of brain is telling me this one thing and that I'll sort of probably die if I carry on and go down here but I'm gonna just go on just that like blind sort of you know when you just like pocket right but that's that courage that we talk about you have to have it it's main ingredient if you're going to follow this formula gotta have it yeah well at some point you've just got to go like right right and do the opposite as well as is a very good thing because everything's telling you is like sort of you know spiked with like doped with anxiety so it's you know it's a it's to bluff you and trick you and everything so if you just do the opposite actually you know I mean it's just like you better just stay in your house because everything's really bad right now and you feel terrible you don't want people to see you just go like that means I should probably go out of my house right right when you're anxious whatever your brain is telling you do the exact opposite thing because your brain is an idiot like you can't listen to your your brain at that point so all everything we've talked about for the last 10 minutes is all about the second fear like unmasking that second fear and not letting it be a thing so you know she's talking about how important is it to unmask panic and see these two separate fears how important is it to learn how to spot second fear and send it packing so you you have to so and again that the way to recovery is desensitization so you only get better at dismissing the the what ifs the more you do it so desensitization means exposing yourself to the things that make you panic and learning to ignore or replace or whatever it is your tool is guys it's like the really bad news here is that you have to panic to get better yeah the only way out is through I said you you have to be afraid before you're not afraid I love that line the only way out is the only way out is through I didn't I believe that that was attributed to either Winston Churchill who said when you're walking through hell keep going or Robert Frost may have said that I don't even know I've used it for years but I didn't make it up yeah so that's that's the only way you can do it you know and then she starts to go through like each of the individual symptoms you know I guess we can kind of skim through yeah sorry there might be some people coming in oh by all means guess I see you look behind you so um so only a bogey remains which the word bogey is not something we're using the US so much but I guess oh it's it's Fransky I love Fransky I love I'm a huge fan of Holly's dog I don't know why I just love her yeah so must you let a physical feeling hold such terror is the way she starts his paragraph and it's a really solid question must you let a hot feeling in your stomach or a burning flash pins and needles like weak feeling in your legs do you have to let those things spoil your life yeah do you have this line where she says um she's talking about um I think it's palpitations or something to do with the heart and she says like I can't find it now she says oh you know I had it's like those skipped heartbeats I think yeah yeah like oh there was a period of time when I was working hard and I was quite stressed and I had quite a few episodes of like these skipped heartbeats sure sure um but like sure enough they I don't really pay any attention to them and they went away and and I've never had them since and she said can you imagine if I'd spent the last 30 years worrying and spending my whole life that my whole last 30 years worrying about these palpitations and my heart has served me so well just fine imagine ruining my life you know it would have been a colossal waste of time right I mean imagine the really sad part as well isn't it like I know everything that you're worrying about and anxious about and questioning all this science complete waste of time like it's just all that's the saddest part about it it is true it is kind of in the end and and you will reach that conclusion when you really find the courage learn to truly 100 except and learn to start to recognize the difference between the first few and the second fear you know don't let the second fear happen when you get to those points you start making progress you just start to realize like I wasted a huge amount of time on what turned out to be like phantom stuff like really I spent so much time like poking my freaking chest if I had that time back write a damn opera or something I don't know what I would do but yeah that's true so she does go through the same way and we could kind of bruise through the symptoms I suppose I don't want to talk too much about symptoms but let's talk about the sedation thing oh yeah she talked about sedation and it even came up in the Facebook group somebody asked about about that so she says um if like if like this you may need I'm not sure what she's because I can't seem to get a hold on it doctor well I mean so she's basically talking about when you get at wit's end you know what do I do I can't I don't know what to do here I'm at my wit's end I'm worn down by this and she actually mentions in the book um you may need complete rest in the form of continuous sleep for a few days which I'm not saying that's not that's wrong but it's extreme and she's talking about she's talking about like supervised continuous sedation like a doctor literally puts you to sleep for several days and I'm not sure what I necessarily think about that I mean I understand that you could get literally to the point of nervous breakdown or exhaustion you know I've heard of people who have been hospitalized due to exhaustion I think yeah my sort of interpretation I guess that the continuous sedation does sound quite extreme as in like being asleep all that time yeah I think maybe there's something in it of just I just know when you're really tired and like all your nerves are completely like jangled yeah really hard to sort of do you know I mean because we talked about you've got to find that sort of like tiny bit of logic in your brain to remember what to do when you're sort of anxious so I think that it can be if you're really like jangled and you can't think straight even slightly maybe it is maybe it can be a good thing to just act upon your sleep or maybe just like use sedatives for a week or something at night just to make sure you try and get some sleep and then it helps you like build the sort of strengths to be able to have the courage to sort of like yeah she actually mentions that too sedation is particularly necessary if you cannot sleep so I get it I and again somebody had mentioned in the group because I didn't remember if she was a psychiatrist or psychologist I know she was a medical doctor or not but it does this is a hard topic because I I know that when I was at my worst I remember very clearly being at my doctors and the first time he ever prescribed an antidepressant for me and gave me the insulin speech if you were diabetic he would take your insulin okay and I was in such bad shape that day I will never forget this day and I remember looking at him and I had to get back in the car with my wife and drive back to our house and that seemed like an insurmountable task to me and I remember looking at him and saying I was because he said like these you had to start taking the pills and it might take a couple of weeks for them to to help which is true with SSRIs and I remember looking at him and saying if if you could just give me a shot that made me sleep for two weeks until this worked I would take it so I under and I would meant it I literally meant it I understand how somebody could get to that point where I just I need to be away from this so my view on sedation and using sedatives I mean continuous sedation that's extreme and that's between you and your medical doctor but sedatives as a break she's she's almost using it as it'll give you a break and you need the break so I understand the need to build some sort of physical strength back through rest I get that but at the same time I don't like the sedatives because they're they can mess they mask your symptoms and suddenly find I'm better as long as I have my volume no yeah sure I think that's the really important bit isn't it like she's not saying the sort of not dangerous as a wrong word to use but the the thing about using like benzos right make it when you're feeling anxious it takes that is the complete opposite of facing the anxiety it doesn't teach you anything it's fine you might feel better and it gets you through and you're able to go and go to work or whatever right then fine and sometimes I think when I was sort of in that place I was I was really grateful for them because it stopped me like losing my job and stuff you know like right before I sort of really kind of got my head around what I needed to do it got me through a lot of situations but when you know what to do and if you up to this video then you should you should sort of have some idea what you need to do now is so don't take the tablet because you're trying to run away from your anxiety but if you want to and obviously talk to your doctor about this first but if you want to sort of use it to give yourself a break to be able to muster enough energy to have the courage to then go like and now I'm going to start facing and accepting right I don't really think it's that big a deal and I don't think it's that big a problem yeah you know whatever gets you through to the point where you're able to do constructive work yeah it's funny because she actually mentions at one point I don't know if you have this this paragraph or not but she says people with nervous she calls it nervous illness that's so old-fashioned people with nervous illness seem to take particular delight in doing without sedatives as soon as possible and so that that's really good that's a good outlook that says you know they may try to do without them too soon she's almost cautioning against not taking them yeah in my experience I think it depends on the person like I did not want to use them no matter what because I'm just stubborn that way I'm not saying I was right or wrong but I do remember that there were times for me that I can remember laying in bed at night and just the pump the pounding of my heart like just not being able to go to sleep and giving in and saying you know what I need this is crazy and I would take maybe half a quarter of a pill and it would just be enough so that I'd be able to get a little bit of sleep yeah I think that's important to be able to get even I yeah and I am as opposed to these medications that you will find walking the planet because there's so many pitfalls to them and I would say if you are the type of person that wants to use them judiciously and you can't wait to not use them and you never lose sight of I don't want to use these I can kind of get on board on that but even me the anti-medication guru I would I you know I would give me like 90 Xanax because they're like dirt sheep unfortunately you know and so he'd give them to me and I'd wind up having to dispose of you know 87 of them yeah yeah a little quarter of a pill at a time and he would laugh at me he's like look you know I'm like I'm not a small guy with 215 pounds or whatever what are you doing I have like 85 pound women I take a whole one of these you know so but anyway judicious use is probably not a bad thing but I do think that the way she talks about sedation in the book is a little bit extreme like don't try and get off them too soon and I think most doctors today knowing what we know about addiction would say no I want you off them as soon as possible yeah well remember this was written back in the 50s early 60s yeah yeah maybe they didn't know about the sort of addiction they did not they did not when sedatives especially benzos were introduced you know they were panacea but then all of a sudden we realized like wow you can physically become addicted to these things very quickly and and they don't work I'll mention it really quickly since we're on the subject there's a tolerance that builds up so if you're using valium resenax or adivana whatever the hell it is every single day you need more and more to achieve the same effect and then there's a maximum dose and then it's not doing it anymore so now you have physical dependency and you're still having breakthrough panic and it's it's a bad road to go down so judicious use of sedatives please but just made yeah and it's just it's that differential of differential that's not a word it's that sure it's off of take just make sure you're not taking it to escape your yes day anxiety yeah yeah like that won't help you that won't remember you've got to panic to get better right it's just to give you give you a break a break to be able to sleep to get your sort of strengths up and get your courage up yep and sometimes it's you know think of it as a tool too because I think you were telling you're saying that for you you discovered like well you're feeling really horribly but if you took a pill that went away and I was like oh wait a minute that's a clue yeah that's a clue like this is probably not you know it's not really a bad thing also I used to use them not just for sleep but I would get very sort of like just I couldn't eat anything when I was so anxious and I'm already like a kind of thin person so I would then be getting like hyperglycemia do you know I mean they're just horrible and I couldn't eat and stuff and so sometimes I would take it a tablet to feel better enough that and then I would just like scoff down a dinner and be like oh yeah actually and it's important to keep my strength up and to keep your sort of physical health that I'm not saying everyone should go and take eat a dinner that's part of a nutritious breakfast anyway tough topic very tough topic she let's talk about she goes to other ways of conquering fears there are other ways to conquer fear other than unmasking and analyzing and unmasking it yeah and this is where she's talking about how like solving one fear actually winds up solving others sort of by association yeah she's talks about um someone who's like really uh scared and fearful fearful of their options and something to do with their heart and when she looked further into it she was so scared about her heart because she was scared of dying and so she decided to just address her fear of death and then that got her over her fear of her heart you know the heart symptom then wasn't a problem yes you have palpitations and you're not scared if you have a heart attack and die then you're not going to be scared of the palpitations zone so right exactly which is it's just kind of important and I think not only from the practical matter of like solve the big fear and the one or solve the foundation fear and the ones that are built on top of it go away yeah which I think is what she's saying but it also is a good example of like which fear are we trying to attack here we're not attacking fear of the shopping mall we're attacking fear of the fear so let's solve the right fear and that's my takeaway on that and I'm going to skip to kind of the near the end of the chapter where she talks about how no new symptoms can arise which is a little bit of a misnomer oh what do you well I think people are going to say because she's she literally title at least in my version of the book she literally has a heading over this paragraph in bold no new symptoms can arise I don't think a lot of people listening to us would say oh bullshit they can't like you know I have my heart races and I have stomach problems and now suddenly I also have these vision problems so yes I have new symptoms but I think the point she's trying to make is like adrenaline is limited in what it can do yeah so yes it can affect your heart and your breathing and your vision and your balance and we can name all of those things but it can't do more than that is what she's trying to say she's trying to point out the limiting it has limited ability to do things yeah your legs can't drop off right exactly you're not going to get or people I've seen people who worry like I'm going to have some sort of permanent damage because of this no no not really I mean it's not that's not good to marinate and stress all day long we know that but there's not you know no you're not going to have permanent damage for staying in an anxious state you won't I think that it this is completely non-scientific in my head I think like it's a bit like doing a workout all the time and can that be that yeah it must be good for your heart in a way well I mean I guess it might be but yeah sure no one would that you know and which is a really good way to think about that if you will like no one would tell you that you're doing a bad thing if you spent your day like what people get threatened I have that you have a treadmill and sometimes I can set up a work surface on it and I will spend four hours walking while I'm working not not all the time but I have done it or an hour or two hours or half hour whatever time I have two minutes you know whatever it is but no one would ever argue I'm sure my doctor if I said hey doc I walked for four hours yesterday while I worked you'd be like awesome that's great you know like no one would tell you to like no you should sit down like you know it's yeah yeah sedentary life is much much much better much better to just stay calm and like no no one ever say that like you should be exercising your body so anyway when she says no new symptoms can arise I think that's probably she's just saying what there's a limited number of things this can do yeah but what I did well I when I first read this book when I was very sort of down and and under it all I found a lot of comfort in that chapter because I was really scared of being sick and vomiting and stuff like that she said like so if you if you if nausea and vomiting isn't one of your symptoms of a panic attack then it probably won't be it probably means that your stomach's okay and she says we all know that person who under stress like one person will just like run to the toilet and the other person like heaves and and the other person turns in with Lee and like your symptoms have sort of presented themselves and that's kind of like yes what it is and it's true like you know I know like puke at the tiniest bit of stress and you know other people like people have their different things you know stomach people and other people you know yeah I've never been a stomach person like yeah like I've never even when I have but I'm in a major panic I don't feel like I'm going to be I'm gonna vomit or I may need that but it was my biggest fear that I would actually but we should talk about that because we go through I mean we could spend two hours going through all the symptoms she talks about but I would say what she does in this is she starts to go through each individual symptom palpitation racing heart slowly beating heart which is a thing too missed heartbeats she talks about a lot of heart stuff trembling the inability feeling like you can't breathe and I would almost say lump in the throat feeling you can't swallow being dizzy nausea that sort of stuff she talks about all of those things and I would think as opposed to I mean if there's anything specific you want to talk about we certainly can but you could read through and she just tries to explain why each of those things happen yeah this is why you get nauseous this is why you get dizzy yeah yeah so I mean it's not chapter seven is good in terms of symptoms in terms of getting some explanation of why you get dizzy or why you get nauseous so it's good to go through that but maybe like dispel the the mystery about it you know me like these things like well there's actually like a really good scientific very logical reason why absolutely yeah and she does a pretty good job of like giving you a quick overview of this is why your heart beats slowly sometimes and someone in the group actually mentioned that that they were feeling anxiety with a slow heart rate I'm not dangerously slow it's not you know it's not that but it's called Brady Cardia it's not that but it's it's a vasovagal response but she talks about that too and I would say read through the symptoms but we probably should talk about the emidophobia thing the fear of vomiting a little bit I have known quite a number of people over the years who are dealing with this sort of problem where the fear of vomiting is an actual phobia it's called emidophobia it's a real thing yeah that was that's me I mean I still am in a way but sure sure but I I think it can but when you have emidophobia it can really present a problem in terms of being able to really accept and especially if you are emidophobic and you have stomach problems under stress if you feel nausea or you have bathroom issues when you are in an anxious or panic state and you are afraid literally have a phobia of vomiting you have a very special challenge ahead of you right so I mean I don't know how severe your phobia was but it used to be severe but I yeah in in sort of getting better from being scared of panic attacks I've learned that it's just it's it's the same as a fear of heights or a fear I could be I could have a fear of you know my toe tingling it's the same thing it doesn't matter what it is it's your fear of it right that's what I realized I was telling you before we came on air about that my husband is a sailor and so you know he deals with seasickness and people getting seasick and stuff all the time and to me it's just like it was like the worst thing possible and I was just like my god how do you deal with that he's just like all just sick and just carry on like what you mean like it's no big deal sure but and he tells stories and funny stories about this person was puking and puking and everyone's laughing and and I would be like just sort of like you know sweating and mortified right worst yeah most horrifying terrifying thing that I'm listening to yeah and um yeah and I from sort of that I realized in learning to not trust my anxious thoughts I started to realize that like if other people are okay with this then okay it's probably me it's not actually as bad as I think it is you know and I had to learn to sort of look at other people's responses to things yeah and be like oh that's what everyone else thinks about it so maybe it's not a big deal you know I think that's a that's impressive and you know that ENTP fellow ENTP the T part the thinking part oh you did the thing right the T so I think that maybe this is just a theory based on a little informal thing we did in the Facebook yesterday and personality types being more predisposed to thinking rather than feeling rational rather than emotional probably helped you do that and I think if you're dealing with eminophobia part of the problem with that it's actually classified as a simple phobia like being afraid of heights or dogs or something like that it's hard to expose yourself to the thing you're afraid of because nobody will like make themselves vomit that's a its own problem yeah and I think it's really hard because what I have found and I don't have any really solid advice for this is people who are eminophobic who have stomach issues when they're anxious get stuck hard sometimes because they can they first have to solve the vomiting fear before they can truly accept the anxiety symptoms yeah because if because it's not that they're afraid of the they are afraid of the fear the panic disorder is that the gorophobia is that but the eminophobia sticks itself right in the middle and says like I'm a terrified of that so I must stop this symptom I must stop the nausea so it's a tough one I think if you have eminophobia alongside your anxiety disorder it probably you got to really attack that one first in a way I don't know so they've had success with hypnotherapy for that because eminophobia sure is it such a simple some ways you know yeah and I know that I've heard of I have a friend of mine actually here on Long Island has dealt with it and like she had a therapist who again it's hard to do exposure with something that you don't you can't make happen or you won't make happen because it has its own set of issues but pictures video they used with her the sound like this is a recording of somebody being ill which is gross but if you're dealing with eminophobia that may help you you learn to desensitize yourself to the sound and the picture and blah blah blah so it's something that you probably have to look at if you're if you have that problem I really recommend um mariana sailor right because the person is living full time in the world of seasick going go and chat to a sailor because they deal with it all the time and they just think it's fun they think it's funny when people get seasick sure sure so anyway that's the deal about eminophobia and I think we've pretty much exhausted like I said read through the symptoms we don't have to go through each one but that's essentially chapter seven she tries to dispel each individual symptom because she's trying to I think teach you or reassure you so you can start to learn and recognize what second fear is and not add to it so she's trying to give you some rationality of the why is my heart racing why am I nauseous why am I this one with that and if you could get an understanding of that then it might help you turn the just relax when you have the first fear and not not be afraid of being afraid yeah that makes any sense so you have anything else you want to add on chapter seven I think so we're good right chapter eight is uh which the next one we'll do we'll try and keep these going uh chapter eight is specifically about agoraphobia so which was never a thing for you right you never really you never oh no no yeah oh was oh okay I was I didn't remember if that was not so that'll be the next one we do and I would say um yeah we'll wrap it up and as always like comment on the video if you want and tell me I say like too much please don't say holly says like I didn't hear you say like I do say it too much my mom tells me I say it too much it's good I kind of like it is it possible that it was your mother that commented on the last video mom if you're trolling oh his mother is a youtube troll who knew who knew um yeah so comment on the video if you have questions and stuff I'll put a link to the facebook group it's really for the the the podcast that I do for billy but we're gonna use it for this too yeah if you want to get involved in ask questions yeah oh the personality test should we we'll mention I talked about it on the one I did with billy earlier but let's mention that really quickly I found this interesting I want to know what you think I commented on it yesterday too so we've now had it was I posted a link where you could take like the Myers-Briggs personality assessment thing um you can't take it look it's it's I'm a big behavioral science geek but it's not a hard science so take it with a grain of salt most people find it really insightful like wow this really does describe me but the point is at this point we've had 20 something people respond they took the test and said oh this is my personality type and the interesting thing that I find is that of the 20 something people that responded one of the the axis that the test measures is are you more prone to think or feel so are you more and it's really kind of the more are you more rational and reasoning are you gonna react more emotionally things and everybody has the preference for feeling over thinking except the two people you're looking at on the screen Holly and I have our teas instead of f's and one of the person which is Diane Levec and as it turns out those are the three people in the conversation that are furthest along in their recovery what we've all got exactly the same person yes you you and I and Diane were the only people that came up tea as opposed to f thinking rather than feeling and we are the furthest along I'm not saying just like I said in the in the other episode I'm sure you guys are going to watch the one with Billy too I'm not drawing any conclusion from that it's just I find it interesting but what I think is interesting is if I'd filled that in five years ago I think I would have different different yeah sure and I think you can change over time yeah I've learned to be more more analytical or rational sure so I would say yeah if you want to join the faith follow the link to the Facebook group and take the personality test if you want to jump through it it's just a fun thing to do and thanks for everybody who shared and you can ask questions comments there if you're doing exposure work and you want to share your videos get involved with that Holly's in the group so she'll see you at all and you can comment on YouTube or on my website whatever we'll we'll try and answer questions as we can so that's the deal we'll see you guys for chapter eight next time cool later