 Do you think that women ever reach a point where we don't need male validation? No, no, and that's the thing, right? Like masculinity I think can be categorized by hard physiologically speaking and rhetorically speaking. Femininity can be categorized by soft. Nature itself forces you to be hard. So as a man, a lot of what we're graded on is our ability to be independent. Kind of like I was talking about work earlier, like our ability to bend nature to our will. A woman on the other hand can only be soft if she doesn't have to become hard to bend nature to our will. So I think you can make an argument that like femininity, true soft, soft life. Femininity cannot exist outside the context of being having some of those more rigid requirements alleviated. Yeah, yeah. But when you, when you got to change your tires and you got to, you know, saying kill every spider and you got to work 50 hours a week, it's going to be hard to keep that bass out of your voice. Yeah, yes. So then why do you feel like, I think this is kind of the issue that I have. I don't think women are really given grace per se in a lot of cases because like you said, it's a lot of rigid requirements. And so men and women, we're both growing up in these, in a lot of cases, dysfunctional environments and it just impacts us in different ways. And so we know how men are impacted. We know how women are impacted. I think we, as women saying this carefully in case you disagree, but I think we as women, we're a little bit more understanding of that, where men are just like, well, you're this, you're too masculine, you're this and you're that. And it's like, yeah, but this is, this is why it is this way. But it's kind of like, well, we don't care that, that's why, you know what I'm saying? But we experienced the same thing. So why are we not, why are we not given that grace? I think it's for the same reason why men typically do not study humanities. Like you were talking about studying psychology. How many dudes were in your classes? It was definitely more women, I would say. There weren't men, but they weren't black men, men of other ethnicities for sure. So like generally speaking on the macro, men do not study. You're not going to see as many male nurses. You're not going to see as many male psychologists, men in HR. Females tend to care more about people. Men tend to care more about things. I wish it wasn't the case, but it's, it's true. What I've been trying to like encourage associate black men to do is to have that grace, to have that extra empathy, to understand that there are going to be walls that are, you know, necessary to break down because of her background. And if you care about black women, you should be able to empathize with those walls, just like I think the flip side is, I don't know if our women cater to our broken egos. Like I think the black man's ego has been systematically fractured, just like the black woman's sense of security has been systematically fractured. And I think the only way we can reach a, you know, black love crescendo is if I'm able to see, I gotta do just a little bit more to make him feel safe. And you have to do just a little bit more to make me feel like a man. And it's like a lot of people don't, a lot of people don't want to do that primarily because a lot of my trauma as a black woman is rooted in a black man, my father, my abuser, my, you know, my, my boyfriends, whatever the case may be, and vice versa. You know, a lot of my emasculation as a black man is rooted in a black woman. Yeah. You know, but we don't really get to that part of the conversation because we're so busy thinking that we're each other's enemy. I think a lot of this ties into operating out of survival versus love. And so it's just you're stuck in the state of self preservation. And it's like a lot of things that men complain about that women aren't nurturing or they're too masculine. We don't have a soft side. It's because we aren't pouring from a full cup in ourselves. And so if my cup is not full, I'm withholding all of those things within myself because I feel like I can't give to you. But if I take the time and I work on myself and then I'm complete within myself, then I'm more prone to be able to give to another person. And so I think the biggest disconnect is that we're not doing that shadow work and working on ourselves and that's reflecting in our relationship dynamics. Absolutely. I think, I think most people, if we're being honest, don't even think it's necessary work to do. I think, especially as we become, and this is bigger than even a black thing, as we become more individualistic as a culture, I don't need other people. I definitely don't need another headache in my life, another bit of work to do in my life. Because that patience, that grace takes work. It takes you being able to fuck me for a second. Let me think. And empathize with where this person is coming from. I think it's for us as black people, we don't have a choice. Right? Because I think the fact that we put each other last obviously is rooted in our trauma. But I think it's the key piece of why we're so easily exploited by the bigger white power structure internationally. So for me, like this black love shit, it's, you know, the lovey-dovey shit is cool. The movie shit is cool. But for me, it's about black economics. And until we can prioritize black men, black women, until we can converge in a healthy, productive way, it's very easy for, you know, somebody to drag you around that corner and beat you up. Because I don't care about you versus if we're one band, one sound, you gotta see me too. So why do you think that, I think a part of this is social media. We've been rolling this on time, by the way. You know that, right? What did you say? We've been rolling this on time. Oh really? Okay. So I think this idea that people are supposed to be perfection, instant gratification, a lot of it is social media. But aside from that, why do you feel like people have this idea that we don't have to put in work? Relationships are work. But like you said, no one wants to put in the work or has the patience to do so. Why do you think that is? I think it's a lot of things. The first thing that comes to my mind is options. Right? And I don't think it's inherently a bad thing, right? Because for instance, back in the day, like we were talking about employment earlier, back in the day, most of our parents, our grandparents worked in a company 20, 30, 40, 50 years, but they were also guaranteed a pension. Versus now, the smart thing to do is only work at a company for a year. Because that incremental 1% or 1.5% increase is going to be minimal compared to how you might be able to even double your salary, taking the information and the intel to another company, especially a competitor. But with that being said, there are a lot more industries now. There are a lot more options now. And I think similarly, there are a lot more options in lifestyles now. There are a lot more options in people. We now have international access to one another. I've talked to brothers in Australia, UK, you know what I'm saying, South Africa, right? And I could very easily talk to women in those countries, in those cities, right? So if you, the black woman right in front of me ain't accurate, how much is the flight? You know what I'm saying? How much is the phone call? So I don't have to deal with you. I think back in the day, we had to deal with each other because we were all we had. Or the perception is that we were all we had. But right now, the perception is like, this is the 1,000 million other ones. And I don't think it's good, but I think that's kind of a reality we're going to have to wrestle with. But is it a false perception though? Say more. I think we have a false perception of our options. And I know that passport bros, that's something that's very, very popular right now. But my thing is, like you said, you can call up another woman or go to another country. I don't think that both black men and black women realize that we're not as desirable as we think we are. We grew up without really having family values. We don't really have a lot of culture here. And so I'm just wondering how a person who grew up in that dysfunction, you're probably lacking skills that people in other countries have. So why do you feel like you would go to another country and be a top pick for someone else who might have that culture, that sense of family dynamic that we're missing? So is it as easy as what people think it is for them to just book a flight and women are going to be swinging left and right to get their attention? I have a kind of different take on this because I'm African. I think number one, America's number one export is culture. You can make the argument that it's bad culture. It's not culture, whatever the case may be. But people are watching the Godfather in Zambia. People are watching boys in the hood of belly. They know the culture. So a lot of American culture from the perspective of foreigners is aspirational. Right? So that's number one. Number two, from the perspective of let's say a foreign woman, American men are interesting in the sense that from an international perspective, American men are far more accommodating. than any other group of men. Okay. If we're talking about Muslim men, you have to be covered from head to toe. There's no argument. There's no debate that is what it is. And my way is law. When we're talking about weight, it has to be kept under a certain threshold. There is no big fine woman BBW. Yeah. When we're talking about fun, right? The president of Nigeria a couple of years ago said that a woman's, his woman's place is the kitchen in the other room. That's it. And that's the first lady of Nigeria. Right? So when you introduce, for instance, an American man who has some of the same resources, if not more, especially from an international foreign exchange perspective, let's say a tech bro, right? But he's also a bit more accommodating to, oh, no, baby, you don't have to be covered from head to toe. My mom was it. Oh, no, baby, you don't have to bow down to me. My mom didn't. Oh, no, baby, you don't have to be a size zero. My mom was it. From the perspective of a foreign woman, it's, I get all the perks of manhood with none of the rest or some of the rest. And I think, despite some of my qualms with the passport bros and the savior, some of whom I was beefing with them for some months. I think really the meat of what they're saying is some of the stuff that we are begging our women to do here. Women overseas do it by default. Some of the things that women overseas are begging their men to do, men over here do it by default. Right? This idea of respecting women and believe all women and things like that doesn't exist in Nigeria. That doesn't exist in, you know, to Dubai. Right? So I think the message for women should be you could make an argument that our men are internationally competitive. Are we internationally competitive compared to other women based on what men value? That makes sense. It's like a sense of dictatorship versus democracy. So they are used to, like you said, having all these high standards that they have to meet where they can be a little bit more relaxed. You still feel like you're being fulfilled because they're used to taking care of themselves and nurturing a man. It's just not as much friction. So I think it becomes a thing of us as Black people, we have to figure out do we want to do what's best for ourself? Or are we focusing on the bigger picture? Black people here in America, I should say, because you could go to another country and be with a Black person, right? And I kind of think that's where I'm at with it. One of my mentors, when I was in college, he's like, you probably should start dating outside your race, right? Oh my God. And I was just like, I don't know how I feel about that, right? This was a woman? No, it was a man. It was a man. No, he was a Black man. No. So it's so interesting. So he taught an African-American studies class. He was in Black, though. It'd be there, man. Listen, let me just start again. I love his knowledge, but I thought it was interesting. And he's like, you should probably start trying to date outside your race. And I'm like, I don't know. He had wanted you. So he's not white, but he had a white wife. So I don't even know. It was just a lot of dynamics going on there. But I say that to say that there is this push that's been a conversation that a lot of women have on platforms on YouTube, behind closed doors and things like that. And my gripe with that is that, yes, it might be, it may be easier because who knows? Grass is not always going around the other side. But I still feel like I have a commitment to my people, in a sense, to try to fix the issues that we have so we can build on those economics like you said before. So I think that's all we need to ask. That's what we all need to ask ourselves. Are you, again, wanting something bigger than yourself and you want to stay here and make things work? Or are you going to be a passport bro? Are you going to date out divesting all those things because it's better for you? And I think we have to pick our poison. Yeah. And you know, I've been encouraging people to do that, to fight the good fight. However. Sorry. I'm just going to speak from a male perspective. When I hear some men's like experiences, right? And particularly with our own women. And when I say our own women, I mean in American context, it gets harder and harder to tell them I don't even, because again, the thing that we're finding is men are simultaneously being asked to surpass Superman. Right? Like, I need you making more money. I need you taller. I need you more muscular. I need you more charismatic. I need you more interesting, more multifaceted. I want you to be too popular PhD. Mm hmm. While simultaneously, we're seeing women being allowed or being championed for mediocrity. Oh. In what ways? Talk to me. You're beautiful at any size. It wasn't that you had a bad attitude is that they were too small. It wasn't that you were intolerable. You were unbearable. He just wasn't man enough. Right? So at the very same time, it seems like especially in our community, our women are being encouraged to be less and be celebrated for being less steadily, consistently becoming less while the men are being discriminated against for not being superhuman. Because again, like, dude, overseas, not making six figures. Nobody's saying that. It's just be a good man. Some, you know, talk about Mexican sometimes the woman makes more money, but it's still poppy. You know what I'm saying? There is a deeply rooted sense of men are necessary. Men are valuable. Right? So even in his mediocrity as a man, I still need him because when everything falls apart, I'm not equipped physiologically to really be able to compete in the world, but he is. Whereas in the West, what it seems, what it seems like is not only are you not man enough. You're not none of the sixes. Not only are you not man enough, I'm more man than you. And I dare you to check me. Yeah. I think some of this ties into cognitive dissonance in a way. This stuff is so deep man. Oh my goodness gracious. So we have our parents, grandparents who possibly picked the wrong men. Something happened. Men are not in the household. And so I think to alleviate that feeling of guilt, because we know it's not right for a man to be there. You either can take accountability for your role in that, or you can minimize the importance of a man to make yourself feel better. And I think that's what we're doing. And so from generations that's been passed down and grandparents, parents have that guilt of knowing that they probably were less than, and that's probably why a man didn't stick around. But it's a consolation prize to yourself to say it was someone else. It wasn't me, it was someone else. And those are the messages that we're receiving from people who are supposed to be role models to us. So it makes sense with why you feel that way. But it's this, it's the aftershock of these generational trauma, generational curses that I think people like you and I are struggling to break. And I understand not wanting to wait for people to heal. But it's also frustrating for women like me, the millennials who are feeling all of this anger, they're like, you know, men have been complaining about things for 60 plus years and you guys are now reacting because we're saying something. I'm not 60 years old, right? I'm just here. Like my mom, my grandmother, they might have done something, but it's not my fault. And so it's like, how can we work together to fix these things? But I think at this point, a lot of men are checking out. And I don't feel like it's my fault. Like I didn't have a role in that. So why am I the one that's being blamed for it? That is a good question. So I'm going to try to explain it and not necessarily because I agree with this stance, but I agree with some of it. So the man is here, for instance, is barely five years old. The podcast bros, that's new. It's relatively new. Like when we're in college, they weren't podcast bros. It was Joe Rogan and some other white dudes. But as far as black men speaking up and telling their truths, that was relegated to the barber shop. That was relegated to, you know, the basketball court or, you know, Super Bowl parties. And I think that's why we're seeing such a visceral reaction to people like Kevin Samuels, for instance, because it was the first time publicly that black men black men or a black man was saying, no, fuckers ain't shit. But men have been saying this, you know, the norm was Oprah Winfrey, Ricky Lake, even some male lead talk shows, Phil Donahue, Dr. Phil, it's still skewed feminine. It's still skewed because the target demographic was women. So of course they're going to tell me what they want to hear. It just makes financial sense. But this is the first time where men are starting to speak up. And what men are really saying is I'm tired of receiving all the blame and not getting any of the benefit. So whenever we think about, for instance, patriarchy, a lot of us unintentionally see a black man, we see Mista from Color Purple. We have been, it's been established in our mind that black men are inherently problematic. Black masculinity is inherently toxic. And we start conversations with each other from that place. So it's, hey, black man, prove to me that you're not inherently toxic. So you're guilty until proven. And I can speak to that even as a black man. Even when I was president of NAACP at my college. Go off. Okay. I mean, the reason I say that is because a lot of the pushback or a lot of the resistance came from other women, came from my own black women. It was the who the snigger think he is. You know, it was the, it was the, oh, you think you somebody, oh, a compliment a lot of times wasn't, Allie, you look good today. Oh, you think you look good today. So it's almost baked into us to minimize black male ego. And I've been trying to like shout at the, at the mountaintop is like, that was programmed by white supremacy. Because when men start feeling themselves, when black men start feeling themselves, you get a Haitian revolution. When women start feeling themselves, you get Birkenbacks of fortune at scale. Right. So it makes sense that our reflex is not to only blame black men, but it's also to see black men as the perpetrators. And I say all that to say a lot of the conversation that we have amongst black men and black women, it's like you have to prove to me that you are a good man automatically. And even some of my gripes with women, I get to excuse myself. So for instance, if we're talking about toxic masculinity, whether or not I'm a toxic man, I have to own some of it. But if we're talking about toxic femininity, even if you have some aspects of it, it's none of my friends are like that. I don't even know no women like that. So it's like when we're having a lot of these conversations, it's not in good faith. Because one side is willing to concede a little bit and say, you know what, yeah, I've been a shit in the past. Oh, I know some of my friends were in shit. But with our women sometimes, and I say this to somebody who interviews women with our women sometimes, it's not until you literally hold up the biggest mirror you can find and be like, you see how you kind of ate shit in a way that they might be like, well, you know, but it comes from, but it comes from, but it comes from, I'm supposed to own it, but you get to absolve yourself. And I think a lot of dudes and I think what's frustrating is I realized from a conversational standpoint, I'm better than average. And I still have these problems. So to the average dude who doesn't run a, we need to talk show, you can only imagine. I'm like, man, fuck it. I don't even, fuck it. I'm gonna go there. And I think we don't, we don't empathize with that. And while I think black men in scale are trying to make themselves more palatable to our women, I'm not seeing our women value us enough to say that we're trying to make ourselves more palatable for you. Like it's to the point now that women getting dressed is not for men. Women looking good, it's not for men. You're picking me if you do those things. You see what I'm saying? Whereas like dudes, but yeah, I bought these $1,000 shoes because I hope the women recognize it and see me, you know what I mean? And it's like, until we can get good faith on both sides to say that I want you, and I want you to pump me too, it's going to be hard for us to move forward. I agree. I hear you. I agree with everything that you said. It's so interesting because I think, you know how you, when you were in elementary school and you had a crush on somebody and you knew you would get dressed and hope that they showed up to school that day? Thanks. I feel like as kids, we got it. Like we understood, I like this person. I want to impress them. And it seems like we've strayed further away from that as we've gotten older. So I hear what you're saying.