 I'm delighted that we're going to be joined by our special guest, U.S. Fire Administrator Dr. Lori Moore-Merrill who is here today to answer your questions and to talk about the roles that the federal government can play in addressing some of the problems that we face. And I think it's going to require a combination of federal state and local efforts for us to go forward in the way that we need to go forward if we're going to provide the services that our communities require. The fire service in EMS in Vermont and across this country are facing serious challenges and neither Korea nor volunteer departments are immune. Now, we will be discussing the reasons why we are where we are, but there are a lot of reasons. And I hope that today we will be throwing out the questions. I think I hope Dr. Moore-Merrill will provide us with some help in answering them. As I think all of you know in the state of Vermont over 80% of the fire departments are volunteer while larger communities are served by Korea departments. In most cases what I am hearing across the board is there are very serious challenges related to recruitment and retention of first responders. That seems to be a problem facing all of our departments, large or small. I'm especially concerned that in rural areas are dependent on volunteers. We are reaching a very challenging situation where diminished staffing is creating a situation where smaller communities may not be able to respond effectively to the needs of the people who live in the towns. In terms of volunteers, and I hope we will discuss it, why are we having a hard time attracting volunteers? I think we know some of the answers. State of Vermont rural economies have changed radically. We are not where we were 200 years ago, 100 years ago. When our farming communities, people now get in their car and they are traveling half hour an hour to get to work. People are working in some cases incredibly long hours, they are working two jobs. We have a cultural change. People look at their communities maybe in a little different way than their parents or grandparents. Some of the reasons why we are not attracting and retaining, and then you have the financial reasons. I hope we get into this. A couple hundred years ago I used to be the mayor of Burlington. I was amazed at the expensive fire trucks in the state. How do you buy a fire truck for a few hundred thousand dollars if you're in a small town? How do you do that? Another type of equipment, safety equipment that the firefighter needs is very expensive. One of the things that I will be doing is introducing legislation to substantially increase for both career and volunteer fire. Right now we have two programs that all of you are familiar with. One of them is the assistance. The firefighter is grant A of G and that is for equipment, vehicles and equipment. Then you have the program called SAFE, which is providing funds for recruiting and retaining firefighters. Truth is that neither one of these funds are adequately funded. It's about three hundred and sixty million for each one that is not enough money. And I thought that it is absurd for a small rural department in Vermont that they compete against Boston and New York City. And sometimes these grants are very complicated and small towns don't have the time and the energy to fill out 18 forms. So we're going to talk to Dr. Morrell Merrill in terms of how we can simplify the process, how we get more money into the process. So those are some of the issues that I hope we will be addressing today. But I want to conclude is once again to thank all of you and EMS folks have their set of problems in terms of getting reimbursed for their work. If you go to in many cases, the amount of reimbursement is not adequate. And if you go to somebody's home and you don't take them to the hospital or you don't get reimbursed, that's pretty crazy. And on top of all of that as a result of the pandemic, we're seeing more drug overdoses and all of that stuff, which is very hard for rural EMS services. So we'll talk about that as well. So with that, let me stop talking and get it to the people who really know something about the issue. And so let me introduce Jason Larabee. Jason is the chief of the Walden Fire and Rescue Department. Chief Larabee joins volunteer department 25 years ago as a teenager and has worked his way up to chief. And we were very delighted to have Jason with us. Jason, thanks so much for being with us. Thank you. Yes, I've been chief for years. And I feel as though that in the recent years, we've encountered more obstacles in a rural department. We have roughly 940 people in our town, 39 square miles. Our call volume had increased by 40% from last year from the year before. We have fire, but we also have a fast quad of 3 people who are medically trained. They've been stretched to the max of course with COVID drug overdoses and along with the regular calls. I think our biggest issue right now is been keeping our roster looking healthy. We sit a lot better in many other departments were called upon by other areas or mutual aid often because they don't have enough members and our roster looks better than theirs. I think there's a lot of different things that could be done to help encourage people to join and be part of their community. I feel as though that we have applied for FEMA grant money for new equipment, gear, SCVAs. Major hurdle trying to get through that stuff. I had a grant writer in town that has 20 years experience in doing grants. And she said that was the worst one she ever did. Glad to help you. Don't ask me again. It's been a really a tough, tough thing. Just loaded bureaucracy training requirements and that, you know, volunteer. We set what we want members to be for training. I think the bar is set fairly high for firefighter one, which burns us in some of the grants not having everybody firefighter one certified. I think that could be broken down better in different levels. Asking a commitment of 120 hours is a lot for somebody who has a family and a job. I also think that the age for people to be certified for an EMT or an EMR at 18 years old should be lowered. We've got kids in school who have time who want to take an EMR class or an EMT class or firefighter one class. Why can't they get certified at 16 years old instead? These are people who will be firefighters for many years in EMS people in our community. Let's get them in and keep them for many years and invest in younger people. Yeah, I could go on for quite a long time. I had a stuff. Well, no, you know, in a few minutes, you really did. I think you covered the basics here. I mean, I think you talked about the bureaucracy and the difficulty the small towns have in getting the federal grants. You talked about the need to reform training processes given the world we're living in today. And importantly enough, and we have a young lady on who's going to be talking about this. We need to attract young people into volunteer fire departments and we'll talk about how we can do that, but you've raised the right issues and I appreciate your remarks. Next, we have Chris Newby, who is the president of the professional firefighters of Vermont. Chris is the new president of the organization and is also a captain at the Hartford fire department. And I think what we're going to talk about today is the very serious problems volunteer departments have, but create departments have their series of very serious problems as well. Chris. Thanks a lot for being with us. Thank you, Senator. I appreciate you hosting this and thank Dr. Moore for joining us also to listen. So yeah, briefly on me. So I've been a firefighter here in Hartford for 30 years. So I mean, I've seen quite a bit. But our issues are not uncommon what you see around the country recruitment. Funding issues and staffing to meet all three of those kind of blend together. So I give it, you know, when I got hired in 1992. Our call volume in Hartford was roughly 1100 calls last year we were 2700. So you're looking at a. Statistically a three fold increase and our staffing has only gone up one position. So we went from four on a shift to five. You know, in theory, you look at it that you would think that if the call volume has gone up three times that you would see at least double if not. You know, possibly three times the staffing issue. So staffing is definitely an issue. Around the state, you know, Burlington is hiring people. Wilson is increasing their staffing. To get the numbers for recruitment. We're just not seeing it. For instance, back 12, roughly 12 years ago, we'd have one position where you get 60, 70, sometimes 80 applicants for one position. Two years ago, we hired three to go to five for get all of our shifts to five and we saw. We've roughly 25 applicants for three positions. So, you know, the question beckons why why are we not seeing the numbers we did 1215 years ago. My opinion, it could be a variety of things cultural chains like you said. Possibly, you know, people not wanting the job because it certainly are the jobs that you can work from home remotely and get decent pay. Pay certainly an issue. You know, I'm all for the $15 more minimum wage, but we have firefighters in the state that. You know, a minimum wage increase to 15 would be a raise for them. And I know it nationally that there's, you know, I know he's specific to them up, but the firefighters in the south that are barely over minimum wage. You know, working on a 40, 42, 44, 46, 56 hour work week getting paid $8 an hour, which is just ludicrous in this position. One other thing I'd like to touch on is that like certifications been a big issue for us that people coming outside of the state have problems with each state more or less is on their own and. The unique idea got floated out to me. Why don't we model something after EMS we have the national registry, which is the national standard for. EMS certification of pretty much all states. Accept have something on a national level through the fire administration of the fire can be saying nationally accepted. Curriculum that is easily transferred from state to state. If. You want to attract people from outside the region to come in. I think that's something that would be worth looking at, but. I can go on again, I can go on forever senator, but I'll leave it at that to get things moving. So thank you. Chris. Thank you very much. Our next panelist is Brett. Rose, who is the chief of the Bristol fire department where he is also the president. Of the Addison County fire association. Brett, thanks very much for being with us. Morning, Senator Sanders. Thank you. And just a clarification. I would. I'm a former president of the Addison County firefighters association, but thank you. So yeah, good morning. My name is Brett LaRose. I'm a 27 year veteran of the town of Bristol fire department. And for the past 8 years have served as fire chief. I'd like to thank Senator Sanders. For providing me with this opportunity to speak with you today as a representative of Vermont's emergency services organizations. It's truly an honor sir. The Bristol fire department is currently made up of 34 paid on call personnel and is exclusively volunteer, meaning we don't run any shifts. The town's municipal government and funded exclusively with tax dollars. Our operating budget is approximately. $225,000 a year. We have applied for a few federal grants over the years and most recently we're successful with the assistance to firefighter grant. Bringing in approximately $125,000. Some of the challenges we face recruitment and retention, obvious human resource management, it's time consuming. And many of us, excuse me, and many volunteer fire departments lack the training experience to manage people. Recruitment's challenging. Most people work Monday through Friday, nine, five and have families and can't give up the required time. The training requirements. Training availability. The Vermont fire service training council and the Vermont fire academy do a great job providing certification programs. However, in my opinion, there needs to be more opportunities as I believe we are not connecting with a. A certain population population that doesn't work the traditional work schedule programs today are designed for the career firefighter or the volunteer who works Monday through Friday. Possibly a. In person hybrid virtual type model offering different opportunities perhaps during the week way week day could be a potential option. There's, as already mentioned, some inconsistent training requirements. State statute career firefighters are held to the firefighter 1 standard, but not the volunteer firefighter. We're all providing the same service. So why aren't we all following the same standards. Some of the other recruitment retention challenges and the root causes again are you mentioned the time demands. There's the 2 income families working multiple jobs, increased training demands, higher emergency call volume. Additional demands within your own organization, whether it be fundraising or administrative. Those training requirements. There's more time demands. I understand the firefighter 1 is now approximately 215 hours in length. There's greater public expectation of the fire department's response capabilities. We're providing much broader ranges of services today. Obviously, has Matt technical rescue, etc. Increase in call volume fire departments assuming wider response roles in those particular areas. Changes in the nature of our business abuse of emergency services by the public. So that leads to increased call volume, less of an emphasis on the social aspects of volunteering. You have the changes in the sociological conditions in the. Rural areas employees are less employers are less willing to let employees off to run the calls the time demands. Leadership problems exist some places, you know, perhaps there's not not good leadership and a lack of coordination. Perhaps the wrong approach to leading volunteers and overall disfailure to manage change. There's a higher cost of housing, particularly in affluent communities where volunteers can't afford to live in the communities they serve. And of course, we have aging communities, greater number of older people today lack of economic growth and jobs in some towns. And people just don't have the time to give to their volunteer fire department. Thank you, Senator. Brett, thank you very much. Our next panelist is Mariah Whitcomb, who is the deputy chief of the theft and volunteer fire department. Mariah has been deputy chief there for over 10 years. Mariah, thanks so much for joining us. Thank you, Senator. Good morning, everyone. Yes, I've been a member of the theft for volunteer fire department for the last 25 years and actually my numbers for deputy chief have now climbed to 16 years. It's interesting to be on a department for this long and certainly my colleagues here have talked about all of the challenges that we face, particularly in the volunteer service. Our department was incorporated in 1960 we are a 501 C3 and a private corporation that is contracted by our town to provide fire rescue and EMS services. And in that model, it's slightly different. However, we are 100% supported for our operating budget from our town, which means tax dollars. And because of that, that is one of the challenges that we see with all of our departments. How do we fund our departments adequately without as a community member continuing to raise taxes on folks that are already struggling. Recruitment and retention is also an issue. Currently we have 13 members on our roster and that is low. That is not the number that we need of that number four to five are active. We had a chimney fire last night five showed up. That is the trouble that we are seeing across our departments. And it's not for lack of interest necessarily. And mostly it's lack of time lack of resources lack of incentive. I recognize that intrinsic or extrinsic incentives such as money don't always work. However, there are start and sometimes we do need to look at that to get people on board to then foster that feeling that Brett talked about within the fire service of respect and pride and the work that we all do. There's a reason the people on this call have been doing this work for so long we have pride in this. So how do we encourage that and some of our younger folks. How do we seek out representation across our state. When we look at the Vermont Fire Academy and the great job that they do Brett's point was valid. We need more. We need different configurations. We need to see training that is meeting the needs of our folks where they're at, which means also increasing some infrastructure, getting broadband in place getting Wi Fi in place so people can access hybrid courses. So they can do it from their home from their kitchen table, which is our goal. In addition, starting to look across and I'm so grateful to see another female firefighter on this panel today, but beginning to see more representation in that way. When people see others that look like them teaching these courses, they are more likely to join us. And so working on that and beginning to open that up and really spread the work, I think can be incredibly helpful. My colleagues talked about the challenges with the grants. I would echo that and I don't need to spend more time on that, but certainly finding a way to support our volunteers in the grant writing process. So that my small department is not competing against FDN why would be great and certainly benefit all of us. So I will leave it there. There's plenty of us to do the talking today. Thank you, Senator for this opportunity. Thank you very much. Mariah. And one word on infrastructure. I know not a lot is happening in Washington, but we did pass a 1.2 trillion dollar infrastructure happened to be on the relevant committee, a few billion dollars is coming into the state of Vermont over a period of years. And I hope you guys end up seeing that in terms of improving your communications capabilities, etc. Sean Galvin is the fire chief at the Fairhaven rescue. Sean became interim chief for Fairhaven. Just before the pandemic hit lucky you. His background is in the career fire service Sean. If you could make it a little louder, you make a little louder. I don't know if I can. You have done it. That's it. You're great. Okay. Sorry about that. I was a career firefighter for a little over 31 years. I retired just before the pandemic and got on the board of directors for Fairhaven rescue. Two days after the pandemic was declared the chief resigned abruptly. So I was asked to fill that role for 30 days. Two years later, we just hired a new chief. I was asked to stay out. I'm currently a deputy chief there. I was asked to stay out to help with the transition and to support the current chief. It was a learning career for me. And one thing I discovered the lack of personnel in EMS a large portion of the reason I believe is there are very few volunteers stepping up. The job has changed and most of it changed to the point where it needs to be a paid position now on an ambulance. The amount of money being paid is just not a liberal wage. So most people that do this for a live and work in three or four departments. The training requirements have changed 30 years ago. We didn't have a cardiac monitor on the ambulance today. We can send the information from a cardiac monitor to the ER from the field, which is a great improvement. But there's a number of improvements that required more training. So now you're asking volunteers to spend more time training to get to the point where they can do the job adequately. And you just can't put that amount of time and still work a job to take care of your family. We get funded mostly by billing insurance companies. We get paid for about 60% of the bills. The money that comes in from Medicare and Medicaid, which is a large portion of our clients. They don't pay out 100% of the bill. So that's a struggle. The training back to the training. You can get a scholarship to be to go to college. It's very difficult to get a scholarship to become a paramedic or an EMT though that funding isn't out there and that would be helpful. You had mentioned some grants like the aid to firefighter grant and the safer grant. A lot of EMS agencies in Vermont are not municipal. Like my department is a nonprofit. We work for the towns and the towns do help with some of the funding. But we're not eligible to apply for a safer grant because we're not a municipality. So that that's off the table for us. My colleagues have mentioned a number of things that were on my list to mention. I don't want to take up too much of your time either. But the biggest challenge that I've seen is recruitment and retention. And a lot of that is because I think the volunteer world is going away at least in EMS. It's going to have to be a paid department. We support each other's towns in my area. You have to go mutual aid to your neighboring communities and they come help us when we're short staffed. It's not uncommon for there not to be a squad on duty in a neighboring town. Or even in our town we've been doing pretty well. Our staffing has increased and we're staffing one ambulance 24 seven seven days a week right now with somebody at the station, which is great. It needs to be more even and we're on a call and a second 911 call comes in. There's been instances where it's been over an hour from 911 to patient contact and that's just not acceptable. If we fall through the volunteers or the or the paid staff, there is just not enough people. And that's that's the biggest challenge we're facing. So I thank you for your time. I don't want to repeat things that other people have said, but I appreciate the opportunity to have a few minutes. Sean, thank you very much. Our next panelist addresses in herself some of the issues that everybody has been talking about. And that is how do we bring more young people into firefighting and EMS services? How do we bring more women in? So I am delighted to introduce Danielle Morse, who is a volunteer firefighter with the Whiting Volunteer Department. And also we're proud to say Miss Vermont. So Danielle, thanks a lot for being with us. Thank you so much for having me. Senator Sanders. I'm very excited to be here. My name is Danielle Morse. I'm on the Whiting Fire Department and I previously was on the New Haven Volunteer Fire Department. And with all my years, I've been a volunteer firefighter for eight years, which three of those were in the cadet program. And it was something that just was drawn to me in my middle school years. And it was just something that I got hooked on and I've been interested in ever since. But I see that a lot of people my age or younger have a hard time fitting that into their schedule or feeling confident enough to join the fire department. I did not have a dad on the fire department or a mom or anyone. I just had to take that risk and join myself. But I think that as a 15 year old girl, if I had a program that I could join with other cadets across my county, I would feel more confident walking into those trainings. I know that a lot of guys have taken me under their wing and shown me the ropes. But a lot of times if you showed up to a training, people with 30 years of experience under their belt didn't want to go over how to put your gear on or how to tie that simple knot. And I think that as a teenager, if we had a program that was more welcoming to cadets and starting off fresh, it would be less intimidating to join. I think that there's also benefits that we could kind of rope in through high schools. Whether that be class credit, like joining your volunteer fire department and getting those training hours besides going to gym class or anything else. You know, you needed that little bit on the end of your line to get kids roped in because I've seen the benefits. I've become more confident and I've done things that I never thought I could be able to do before. And if we just had a program or more oomph to the cadet programs, I think that we could rope more people in. And it's important because eventually you're going to be a firefighter and eventually it'll be my age group. That'll be running the fire departments and we'll be the chiefs. And someday we need to have that backbone. And so if we get them started young, we'll be more confident later in those years. So if I hadn't joined at 15, I wouldn't have felt less confident walking into Fire 1. So as much as I could sit here and talk about grants, I think my expertise is more about roping in those young people. And, you know, I just like to say a little shout out if anyone has ever wanted to join their fire department, female, old, young, whatever they are. You know, if they reach out to me, I'd love to talk more about the great benefits that I've seen over my past eight years. So thank you. Thank you, Danielle. Danielle raises a number of very important issues. And one of the issues I hope people keep in the back of their minds. I'm not quite sure right now if a young person or anybody for that matter wanted to join a local fire department. I'm not quite sure they know even how to begin that process. Is there a phone number you can call up? How do you go about doing that? So I think we're going to have to work at the federal level. We're going to have to work at the state level. We're going to have to work at the local level and attracting Danielle had some great ideas. How we do better and getting into the schools, how we develop programs for kids. I'm going to get back to you, Danielle, because I think you have a lot to offer us. I have one last thing I'd like to say. And although not everyone just needs a participation trophy or anything, but I won my junior firefighter award a few years ago for the county of Addison County. And I received a letter from you that I still have in my room hung up because those little things keep you encouraged. And those are the things you can look back at and think, you know, I am doing something good for my county. So thank you for that too. Thank you very much. Okay. We are now going to hear from the chief fire administrator. So the head of the entire, you know, federal government's response to firefighting. It's not a high profile position, but it is enormously important position. Dr. Lori More Merrill began her career with the Memphis fire department and spent 26 years at the International Association of Firefighters Union. She was appointed by President Biden in October. And among many other things, the US fire administration overseas AFG and safer grants and offers both fire and EMS training. Dr. More Merrill, thank you so much for being with us. Take it away. You're on mute. There we go. All right. First thing you have to do is find the mute button. Good morning, Senator. Thank you so much for having me and what a wealth of information. I was favoritially writing notes as each of the panelists were speaking. So I really appreciate just the opportunity to listen this morning and to understand the challenges. And I think as I listened, I was realizing that they're not unlike challenges that I'm hearing throughout the country. You know, I think everybody in our field is exhausted. Not to mention, you know, the world itself, but certainly in the first responder realm, COVID pandemic has not helped us. Some of these problems existed before COVID and now they have been exacerbated and our orders of magnitude different than they were even before. So the recognition that we're all exhausted at this point in time is not lost. You know, as we talk about recruitment, some of the conversations that I've been having and certainly with you, Senator, in the recent months about recruitment. Is that just as your panelists, it is not a situation that's just a volunteer or just a career, just a combination problem. This is a problem that is affecting a majority of departments, regardless of type throughout our country. And I think that there are a multitude of factors that are weighing in. And often the factors are not the same for each department. It is going to vary regionally. It's going to vary by the urban suburban and rural dynamic. And so we're hearing everything from certainly has been addressed here by some of the panelists, the difference in pay. We are seeing an overall drop in applicants nationwide and we can all, you know, sort of theorize about why. But I do hear a lot of departments, you know, sort of cannibalizing each other. I think that that is happening some I hear that a lot that, you know, we've got suburban departments that are taking folks away from urban departments and vice versa. And it's a pay benefits driven situation, but it's also that they are often going after the same candidate pool. So if the pool is down itself and now I've got multiple, multiple departments trying to hire from the same pool of applicants, then that also is a problem. So we're also seeing across the nation, once we can identify candidates that may make it through from a fitness wellness perspective. And as they go through their candidate physical ability tasks and all of that, and we get a good candidate as they move forward, perhaps, and many places, we are getting stumped on background checks. And so the integrity checks, you know, matter, right. And so we, you know, I would encourage and I love Danielle's enthusiasm because I would encourage we want to recruit. We want to start early, but we also want to recruit folks of integrity. And so for the young folks listening, it's it matters the choices you make in your life, especially if you want to pursue a career in public safety. And so we want to make sure that those are that that idea is out there as well. Then I think we're seeing some issues, you know, in training. And what I mean by that is that often I've talked to so many departments. And again, very throughout the country that I start with a recruit class of, you know, 50. And by the time we finish training, I'm down to 25. So I've got 25. I'm actually putting on the line. Well, what is happening from the time I start training to the end point. And so I'm sure that all of you and almost everyone spoke about training. So is it the method we're using to train? Are we still using textbooks and, you know, lecture often called death by PowerPoint? Or are we interactive? Are we using electronic medium? Are we using live drills as best as possible? What are the methods we're using? Because often off here instructors who've been around for a while say, well, they just can't learn. Well, maybe they're not learning the way you're teaching. And so I think we have to take a hard look at how we are delivering information and make sure that, you know, for a host of the younger folks and I'll say the junior folks coming on. They learn differently than I did. They are learning and in smaller bites of information. They learn a lot through video. And so all of these things we have to be cognizant of as we are training recruits and we have to think differently and have a paradigm shift in that regard. And I think you touched on as Senator and as Danielle about generational differences, right? And so looking about who is choosing today to be in public service and why are they making that choice? And I know when you and I've talked before there is something to be said about the societal challenges what we are experiencing now in the environment in which public safety responds. And what I mean by that is our all hazards environment, fire departments, fire and EMS departments certainly respond to all hazards. If it's not involving, you know, criminal activity and often we respond to that too. But we are all hazards responders. And so what the definition of all hazards entails has changed in the last few years. And so you have to make a cognizant choice, a deliberate choice to want to participate in this arena. Given the changing the risk environment into which our responders are working. So I think that that is something we've got to to look at. You know, I think that EMS and I think it was Sean who brought up the EMS factor. And often we are, you know, I mentioned recruit school. And we take folks through fire school first and then we'll put them through EMT or even paramedic versus flipping that. And I'm hearing now that a lot of departments who are saying, let's get you through EMS school first at whatever level, then train you to go through fire school or as a fire recruit. And so that is helping us keep the numbers up. There's a better focus on that EMS training up front. As you all told me, we still have a good bit of fire here, but the majority of our calls, you know, 65, 70% are EMS based. And so we've got to be focused on this all hazards capability of our responders as well. One of the other things that I know is contributing to the exhaustion across the country from our first responders, particularly in this EMS scope is that we are seeing for those departments who transport. There is an increase in their time on those units. And it's a lot of it is contributed to their drop off time at hospitals. Now, I don't know if anybody and maybe we'll talk about this with some of the panelists, but our drop off time at hospitals because the hospitals are overrun. We know that with COVID. And so when you try to drop off a stroke patient or a heart patient or you're backed up the ERs are backed up. And so we are experiencing these long wait times. What does that do into your system, particularly if you're in an area with one ambulance, right? We can't sustain that. So we need to have more conversations with our partners and stakeholders at the local level to overcome these barriers. And this is a problem. I can't have an ambulance sitting at a hospital for an hour to drop off a patient because I need them in the field. They're part of a system of response. And so these are things that are showing up as I have discussed across the country and I think that matters. So what do we do solutions. So I can just talk about that for just a second. We talk about sometimes we dwell on the problems, but I think we have to in these discussions at least begin to think about, you know, what are the solutions. So I think we've talked some about training solutions, our methods, how we teach. There are recruiting changes that are happening in departments because we've got some pretty innovative thinkers, not the least of which are some that have ideas that are being thrown out by these departments, but recruiting in high schools. Absolutely. Yes. And Danielle said cadet programs in middle school. Yes. We have departments who are really starting to think outside the box. You know, technical schools, our community colleges, these are all grounds for identifying, you know, people that don't necessarily continue on and get a bachelor's degree because they want to do something that is your service. You know, these things, these decisions are appropriate and valued. And so I think the way we recruit and the field from which we recruit. We should really have a hard look at that. I think that having some, you know, workforce initiatives that are deliberate in our diversity, you know, areas. Absolutely. And I want you to think outside because diversity doesn't today have the same meaning that we have had a lot in the past. In other words, it's not just race and ethnicity and gender. It's attitude, right? It's finding people like Danielle, right? It's finding people who are prepared to serve and commit to a mission. And so that is just as diverse thinking our mindset when we're talking about diversity. And so I think we've got to open up our scope of the way we think. Another thing that I want departments to think about is mentorship. Because if we can identify candidates and yet they struggle, you know, with taking a test, they can get the drills, but they struggle with testing, then a mentor sitting with them, working with them. Can we have mentorship programs that are beneficial to make sure we get these people through these good candidates that simply struggle, you know, to take a test, but they're fantastic on the political side. And so I think just some programs like that are going to help us with some of these solutions. So I have some other comments certainly, but I think these are probably going to come up in questions. I'll just leave you with this, Senator. I'm going to turn it back to you. Just yesterday, the research agenda for the National Fire Service was released by the National Fallen Firefighter Foundation. And that is something that many of us in the fire scope have worked on for years. This happens every five years. This agenda is released. And one of the prominent pieces of this agenda is on recruitment, hiring and retention. And there's a whole research realm out there that can help us. So, even though I've thrown out some potential solutions. I would pose to you that we don't yet know all the answers. But we have now a thought process and a research agenda that says, we need to look at this. Which means in some of our research and development grants under AFG that that should now focus on identifying how we hire. How do we recruit? How do we train? And how do we retain our firefighters? So I just wanted to get everyone a heads up on that. So back to you, Senator. Dr. Monroe, thank you very much for the work you're doing and for being with us this morning. Let me start off. I think we may have some questions that are out there. Let me start off with questions of my own. Let me start off with you, Dr. You've heard what is, I'm sure you've heard it all over the country. A, we don't have enough federal money. That's not your problem. That's my problem. And I'm going to try to address it substantially increasing money for both grants. But second of all, if you are a small department, you know, you don't have five professional grant writers sitting there to help you fill out complicated forms. How are you going to make these forms a lot simpler so that small departments can access them? That's a great question, sir. And USFA is actually a partner on the grants. We do not lead them directly, but we partner with the FEMA grants program directorate. And so one of the things that's come out as even I from the fire service has said on some of the panels over the years to address this very problem is that we have a much smaller application that's been developed for micro grants. And so these are grants up to $25,000. That's a much simpler application. They have not yet been launched. So that is something that was being looked at for the 21 grants. And so there's some revision going on with the. The FEMA go system and how the grants are managed, but I can tell you that that is a consideration that is likely to come forward. So we're looking really at revising that application. So, no, I would, you know, knowing was sorry, sir. You know, dealing every day with the federal bureaucracy, you know, it takes forever to do things. And I think what you're hearing is in small towns. I know, certainly in Vermont, but I expect all over the country. It's the same issue. These guys need help. They're not New York City grant writers. Please make the form, you know, if I can play of. Any role in the chairman of the budget committee work with you on it, but let's let's make the forms as simple as we possibly can so that people can access them. Okay. Understood, sir. Absolutely. If I may, just in that regard, you mentioned grant writers. There are in each of the FEMA regions, regional administrations. Right. And they have technical assistance. There's also technical assistance here. Please. I implore folks don't try to do this on your own. That's why these folks are here. So, reach out to the technical assistance in the meanwhile, but certainly you're you're asked on the simpler form. We certainly get that. Okay. Let me throw it out to everybody. And maybe we'll go back to Danielle. The start of the discussion. I think we're all in agreement. That we're going to have to do a better job in attracting young people into firefighting into EMS services. Danielle, why don't you, you know, you talk to many of your friends getting involved? If not, why you touched in your presentation on some of the reasons why not, but go into it a little bit more detailed. Tell these folks how we can do a better job in reaching out to young people. I think starting in high schools and middle schools, I had an opportunity to study whatever I wanted in eighth grade. And it was just a eighth grade challenge and I chose firefighting. And I think that if more people just knew about how easy it was to show up to your fire department when you're 15 or whatever the age limit was, they'd be willing to help you and get you joined. And a lot of people are scared to run into burning buildings. And that's completely acceptable. But departments can have help in other ways. There's certainly different things to do besides just running into burning buildings. And I know that there was a program at one of the tech centers for firefighting and it was actually taken out of the schedule. There was no class. And so I wasn't able to take that. So I had to just wait until I could take fire one or any of the trainings that the county suggested or had for me to take. But if we had more of those programs where cadets could come together and start fresh and just have just know that every town, at least usually they have a department and they're willing to work with them. Alright, let me ask the other panelists about what Danielle was saying. Are we doing an adequate job in recruiting young people? Yeah, John, Jason, why don't you jump in? Yes, we've got three junior members currently. What I was saying about changing the age for certifications is we've found a few that were junior members. They're taking either fire or EMS stuff. They weren't, they were not 18 at that point. They could not get certified. And then they never follow through and get their certification. Whether it was something that we could do to help them get that sheet and capture them when they're young. I totally agree. Our junior recruitment is up. We've got other juniors. We've been very proactive on doing that. My son has gone to fire calls since I could put the car seat in the engine. And my daughter participates. Yes, I've done that. My wife's a firefighter. You know, we reach out to the schools. We try to do what we can. But once you get a few of them in their friends join and it becomes a group. So. Okay, Sean, do you want to jump in? Yes, sir. I just wanted to share what we're trying here. It's been my experience that the cadet programs in my area have had. Peaks and valleys and how successful they are both in EMS fire departments and in law enforcement. So what we are just starting now it's a brand new endeavor for us is we're starting a search and rescue programs search and rescue team. And it's going to be in lieu of a cadet program. The management in this team has a background in law enforcement, EMS and fire. And if a youth joins the team and has an interest in a particular discipline, they'll be guided and encouraged down that path. So the law enforcement management would arrange ride-alongs or help them down that road. Not to mention when you're a 16, 17 year old boy being called a cadet is not necessarily cool. But if you're a member of the search and rescue team and get a cool t-shirt, you know, all of a sudden it's cool and that kind of draws a little bit more. And the other idea with this is there's a number of people that adults that maybe don't want to take firefighter one or become an EMT and take that commitment on. But they still could be a benefit to emergency services. So getting them involved with this, we could train them potentially to drive an ambulance in a pinch, go through the EVOC courses and that that type of thing. And we discovered right now, people don't realize it takes a minimum of 12 people to carry a litter out of the woods. You need six on a litter and you got to keep swapping them and that's minimum. We don't have 12 people to carry a litter out of the woods. Right now we'd call the fire department and you're going to get a variety of ability that shows up and oftentimes they're going to show up in bunker gear. So you're going to have them hike up the side of a mountain in bunker gear. It's not going to happen. We're going to end up carrying two people out of the woods. So we're trying to address that need but also support the cadet program and encouraging youth to be involved with emergency services. So Merrill Merrill had mentioned training of the fire department and EMS off the topic just a little bit is my fire department was very strong in training and encouraged continual education. So a lot of the firefighters went through firefighter 123 fire officer 123. Then when I got involved with the EMS department, I discovered there was no real clear pathway to train managers in EMS. There was no EMS officer 123 and the firefighter fire officer 123 mirrors business management. So we actually I reached out to the fire Academy in the state of Vermont and they were in the process of developing some type of management class that would be more fitting to EMS and then the pandemic hit and of course everything got kicked down the road. I thought it was pretty interesting that the volume of calls in EMS is tends to be larger than the fire department, but there's no pathway to train a manager in a in the EMS field. I believe and let me ask, let me just a couple of questions out of what Sean said. So I want to become. I want to get into EMS. How do I get training and how much does it cost me to do that. Am I going to have to pay for that on my own pocket? Oh yeah, more more often than not. All right, so we just let's stop there for a minute. Is that pretty crazy? Oh yeah, desperate need of EMS people who are willing to volunteer their time, get up in the middle of the night. And then we say, oh, by the way, in order to do this service, you have to spend thousands of dollars to get training. Does that make sense to anybody? Anyone? Am I the only person who thinks that's pretty crazy? That's absolutely crazy. The, the basic EMT course in my area cost between 600 and $1,000. Some agencies will pay for that. The department will pay for it for some people. If you're smart, what you're going to do is tell them you'll pay for it. You'll reimburse them because again, you get people to take the class and they either see how difficult it is and they quit and you're out $1,000 at your budget. You know, so they have to have some buy in. But it is absolutely nuts to tell somebody you need to pay money to volunteer. Let's stay up. Let's stay on that subject. All right. Now, if I want to become a firefighter. I get good training for free at the economy. Correct. I want to become EMS, not the case. And more of the calls are now with EMS. Does everybody agree that that's a problem? Dr. Morel, do you want to jump in? If I may. Yes, sir. So in departments where they are multi role. So firefighter paramedics, firefighter EMTs, then the, the EMS school is covered as part of the recruit school. Or they are hiring them because they already have the license from another department. So this is the patterns for this are similar to the patterns for fire training as that varies. You know, we've got a baseline standard, but the states. Select and do it differently. So right now. Even moving from state to state, often you have to start over in a recruit school with a new department to go with their standards. So we do have some things that are varied from state to state. EMS school is 1 of those and so EMS and there's some baseline curriculum, but then you have variances in the states on how the training is done and how it's required. Who can teach it? Who can deploy it? So those things are going to vary from state to state. So this is we're on to something here that EMS training. It's longer by the way. It is also more intense for the learning process. And it is typically more expensive. So you're absolutely on to something, but I wouldn't say there is 1. Model for training. Alright, but will you agree, Dr. Merrill that it's a little bit crazy to ask somebody to go into EMS and then have to pay for the training themselves. I do agree. Yes, sir. That I would say that's a little bit far reach. Yes, sir. Alright, I want to move in a different direction. By the way, before we go further, you know, I've been asking Dr. Merrill questions. Anybody here have questions they want to ask Dr. Merrill directly. Don't be shy about it. Anybody have anything on their minds? Okay. Alright, I want to touch on another issue here. We've been talking about the problems which are very, very serious in Vermont, all over the country. But when we talk, especially about, you know, rural volunteers, there's a very positive side to it too. You know, we just did a video on Vermont volunteer firefighters and you hear these guys talking about the satisfaction, the pride they have in serving their communities. Who wants to say a word about, you know, if you're reaching out to people who are watching this program, we're thinking, well, you know, you know, what do I get out of it? I got up in the middle of the night and put my life on the line. Is there anything positive other than what does somebody get? What do you guys, what motivates you to do the work? Who wants to, I see Mariah smiling. Mariah, why are you doing this work? It's such a great question. And it's one that I think about often and talk about across the state when I'm teaching, because I'm also a fire instructor and an EMS instructor for Vermont. And it's, it's what we talk about. And I start with what's your why. So why do we do this work? I do this work because I have the opportunity to show up on somebody's worst day and make it just a little bit better. And you can't bottle that. You can't put that in a check. That is an amazing feeling when you know you've made it just a little bit better. And you have a sense of accomplishment. You're using those hours and hours and hours of training that you have devoted to be able to assist someone else. That level of service is something you don't get anywhere else. And so I think that is something that we need to tap into. How do we tell those stories? The video that you just did is a great way. How do we support our other volunteer agencies with some resources to be able to do videos like that for recruitment? What are our opportunities for that to get that word out? Because that in the schools is another way to grab some young people. It's another way to say to folks who have a little bit of discretionary time, this is the place you want to put it. Let me thank what Mariah said and thank you, Mariah, and you said you're making somebody on their worst day feel a little bit better. You're being modest there. You're saving lives. Let's be clear about that. I'm sure that all of you have been involved in life-saving efforts and the people at this stage are appreciative. All we're doing, we've talked about the challenges getting young people involved, maybe women involved. If I'm an average person and I just heard Mariah and I said, I really would like to serve my community, do I know even how to go about beginning the process? And I want to add to that is the state, we run a good, a very strong academy, but is the state of Vermont doing, you know, the federal government is not going to be the hands-on guys. It's going to be the state level. All we're doing is good enough job at the state level, coordinating efforts, helping the local departments. Who wants to jump in on those issues? Come on guys, I'll be sure. Yeah, Jason. We have three that are going to go to the state fire academy through the Vermont Volunteer Firefighters Association. That is a wonderful program. I do not know what support they get from state and federal, but it gets a lot of younger people involved into that. I think that's a very good stepping stone for departments to be able to recruit. It's a week-long program. They go to the fire academy. They stay there. They work there. They learn a lot. We've had others gone through it and they loved it. I think that is a program that should be supported and nurtured more to get more younger people involved. All right, I will do my best through our social media to get the word out about this. But I just wonder in general, if I'm an average person out there and I, you know, like the idea of public service and supporting my community, do I know? Do I know how to go about the process? Am I wrong in thinking that a lot of folks don't know, but correct me if I'm wrong here. Yes, sir. So obviously we depend a lot upon just word of mouth, you know, your current volunteers getting the word out there, utilizing the power of social media, et cetera. You know, however, you know, looking at our small communities and how, you know, the population has changed and continues to change. I mean, it's amazing how many people have moved to the area in the last 20 years and how some people, you know, they think you're a full-time fire department. So we could we do a better job at getting the word out there? Absolutely. But whatever that message is, what that looks like, whether it's coming from your local fire department, from your county association or from the state, I think we need to, you know, be consistent with our message and make sure people fully understand what it is they're signing up for or showing an interest in. You know, are they going to see the same thing from department to department? You know, we put out a flashy video. It makes fire service and EMS look like the cool thing. But when they actually show up at their fire department, what could they expect? Right. So I just think that's something we need to take into consideration. We can throw all kinds of money at advertisement. But what do you get in the end? Do people enjoy, I think, I don't know, help me out on this. I think in past years, you know, people would come together on a Saturday afternoon and clean the equipment and all that stuff. It was kind of a social gathering place. Is that still the case? And I know pandemic, the pandemic has altered everything. But do we still see, you know, with people coming together and just having a good time and doing local fundraisers? Is that still an important part of what local departments are about? Who wants to jump in on that? Yeah, Sean. Yeah. In my view, it stems back to the other challenges of having volunteers is that. You know, who can I was a career firefighter and. The volunteer firefighters on the panel here know there's been. A variety of interaction between career and paid. I've always had. So much respect for volunteer firefighter. Because how can you hold down a 40 hour week job? And I bet you. Nobody on your fire department only works 40 hours a week. You know, it's 50, 60 hours a week. How can you possibly do that? And go to all the training and go to the calls and get up at three in the morning and then drag your butt to work. After you loaded fire holes back on the truck at five in the morning. You know, I've had a tremendous amount of respect for volunteer firefighters. And I think. The days of volunteer is going away. It's much, much more difficult. And again, we've this training, the topic of training and especially EMS. We're at the point it has to be a paid department. Or it's not going to survive here. You're going to dial 911. And that's not a guarantee. Somebody's coming. You know, it's the training's great and helping with the training would, would be a benefit. But it's the funding to make it a livable wages is from the EMS perspective where the problem is the biggest problem. These are exactly the kind of questions that need to be discussed. You know, if you're living in a rural area and you have a stroke. Are you going to get to the hospital on time and we don't know the answer right now and the situation is deteriorating. And that, you know, I think Sean's point in my view, I speak only for myself speaks to a fairly dysfunctional health care system in general. You know, and getting to a hospital, getting to the doctor should be an integral part of a rational health care system, which unfortunately we don't have right now. Katie, I think I'm already behind time here. You have some questions from the folks who've been watching. Yes, we have a number of questions lining up so we can move to those now. It appears, which is great that our folks who are watching on our WebEx platform have figured out that you can put a question in our Q and a box. So thank you. Keep those coming. We'll get to as many as we can. For folks on the phone, you can press star three. If you have a question. Again, that's star three on your phone. When we bring you you live will read the first six digits of your phone number so just keep an ear out for those. But we're going to take our first question senator from Doug from the Montgomery fire department. Doug has a question. Supporting volunteer firefighters with recruitment and retention. Doug, you are now live with Senator Sanders. Hi, Senator Sanders. Thank you for your time. My question was, is it possible to have a federal tax credit nationwide established for volunteer firefighters to offset the time and effort that we put into helping people. Good. Doug, that is a great question. And the answer of the answer is yes. And it's not only and I want, you know, Dr. Merrill to jump in on this as well. The truth is that different states do different things. For example, in some states, there is a property tax benefit that goes. I think it's some states to maybe state taxes. Doug is raising the question of federal tax relief. Some states are providing health insurance, et cetera, et cetera. So Doug, you know, you raise a point. You know, Sean raises the issue to what degree of EMS service is going to be able to be done voluntarily in general, which is a good question. But some states are kind of creating a hybrid models. So you're not a pure volunteer. You're going to get some assistance, but you're not on a payroll. So to answer the Doug, yeah, that's something that we can consider. But maybe Dr. Merrill, you could tell us what other states federal government is doing in terms of Doug's question. Yeah, absolutely. And I think Senator actually you hit on most of them. The only other thing that I would add is that there are states or local areas. Who have, you know, annuities, that would be the one thing that I said they've set up some sort of an annuity for volunteers. So most that I'm aware are the tax breaks, whether it's a property tax or something, whether it's county or state in that regard that you have some sort of benefit there. You know, if I may, just on that, as far as since he opened the door for, you know, what can be done legislatively. I think that certainly you hit on increasing the overall amounts in our assistance of firefighters, but having some funding or relief in the requirements. I, you know, the match, for example, is another piece of this. And I think that is a piece of something that we could do. I also think in the reimbursement versus payment arena under Medicare, Medicaid, those kinds of pay because, and I forget who it was on the panel that brought that up. That's a great point because during COVID, we had some relief where there was some pay for care separate from transport because we didn't want to transport people right to the hospital if they didn't need to go. And so what we are looking though is a payment, not a reimbursement. And, and those are two different amounts. Sometimes your full cost for delivering that service is not covered. And so if we start looking at EMS, then those are some things. I think we need to continue to address in that payment arena. I'll give you a ring this week. We can chat about that further. How's that? Sounds good, sir. Okay. Katie, a dog. Thanks very much for your question. Katie. Great. Thank you. Our next question is going to be from Stephanie. Stephanie has a question about the difference between fire and EMS funding and some ways to find some equity there for our EMS providers. Stephanie, you are now live with Senator Sanders. Hi, Senator Sanders. Thank you so much for taking my question. So everyone on the panel is really kind of fire based, which is great and Vermont system is really a good mix between fire based EMS and then non fire based EMS. I know a lot of the funding sources that you spoke to are really earmarked for fire based systems. And kind of what can you do either at the national level or at the state level around making those resources more equitable for non fire based EMS. Great question. Let me, let me duck it as a good politician and giving it to Dr. Merle again. Yes. And so I just want to I'm checking some of my notes. So I want to get this right. I believe non fire EMS. There is a 2% it's non profit too, by the way. So it would have to be a not for profit organization, but there are some non fire based allowances inside the grants. So that is, however, it's limited, but I'm not sure we max out on that each year. So that is something I'd like to be able to to research a little more and get back. Let me get back to Stephanie Stephanie. Did you want to elaborate on that? Give me some examples of organizations that are in need of funding and what they do. So, I actually have another question that's that kind of attaches on to that around like mental health and wellness services. That's very and I can hold that for later, or we could talk about that offline as well. Okay. All right. Look, I mean, I think what we all recognize is that above and beyond firefighting. We know what it is when building us on fire. But this health crisis, especially in rural areas. Is enormous and COVID and the opiate epidemic has made it even worse. And I don't think we're in any way. Effectively addressing it right now as a nation in general. So. All right, Stephanie. Thanks very much for that. Great question. Katie back to you. Yep. So, our next question was actually submitted online and it's going to come from Lindsay who's with Hardwick rescue and she says. Volunteer volunteerism is falling nationally. How can the state of Vermont and the federal government assist true volunteer organizations in retaining skilled staff. Thinking about tax credits grant writing support. Exemption from research audits and. Difficult administrative work. Well, you know, I think several panelists have already made the point. Volunteerism around the country isn't declined. Not because people are selfish. It's when you're working 40 or 60 hours. A week. And you got a family and you're commuting to work. You just don't have the time. I just talked to some postal workers. Let it carry is yesterday. How many hours a week. These guys are working. Talking 70, 80 hours a week. They ain't going to be volunteering for the local fire department. So I think, you know, in one way or another, you know, Shawn suggests that maybe today a volunteer EMS. Is history. Maybe it is. Maybe it isn't. But clearly you're going to need. More financial incentives to tell people we appreciate your volunteering. We're going to help you with your property taxes. So we're going to do this or we're going to do that. So, I mean, I think that's probably. The direction. That we're going to have to go and also. Well, let me just leave it at that other thoughts on that one who wants to. You know, this is a national problem. People are. How do you get more people to be serving the community? Who wants to Daniel, you want to jump in on that one a little bit? What about young people? Young people. My experience with young people in Vermont around the country. It's a great generation. You're part of a beautiful generation of young people who have their own problems. How do we get more of them? Do they feel comfortable coming in? And being part of the community or people saying, well, you're just the kid. You're not important. What are you hearing? I think that we need to have more people that are cadets or junior firefighters. Talking about their experience and not having people that have been firefighters for 30 plus years talking about their experience for them. And I also know that with my time in college, it was hard to work around my schedule. If I had exams every Tuesday night and that's when we had trainings, it would be hard to work around that because I'd miss training because I obviously couldn't just skip on my college exams. And so, I mean, there's not really an easy way to ask people to work around their schedules if it's just not possible. And I think that online trainings and things that people can do on their own time can certainly be helpful if I can watch a video and take some quizzes to challenge myself. If it wasn't just if I just wasn't available on a Wednesday night, one month of the one day of the excellent point. That's right. I mean, it's not just students. It's everybody who's up to here with kids and everything else. Kids at work and family and all that stuff. So a flexibility in terms of training is what you're saying. And I think that's exactly right. Okay, Katie, you got questions? Yes, absolutely. So our next question is going to be coming from Nicholas. Nicholas is from the St. Michael's fire and rescue department. And he has some questions also about recruiting Nicholas. You are now live with Senator Sanders. My apologies. I didn't think I'd be live with that. I thought my question would just be asked. Well, I wasn't exactly prepared for this, but I'll definitely ask. So, Senator, myself as a volunteer firefighter with same likes, I've had some specific insight with the more college based fire and EMS. And I just see a lack of how should I say a willingness for the program to become a pipeline for the other various services in the area. I can say that several members from my own department continue on with Colchester fire as extension fire Burlington fire. But that's for the most part, because they've either received another job in the area or become a career firefighter EMS based provider. I just, I don't see the type of program like over in Maine, how they have Eastern Maine Community College fire science or Southern Maine Community College fire science that provides live in firefighters around to neighboring departments. And I was just wondering if you had any thoughts on that. Well, let me ask you talk about a pipeline. Chris, do you want to say a word on that? Are we. What is the connection between, you know, younger people getting involved in volunteer service and eventually graduating to become professionals. Sure. I mean, that's a that's an interesting question and I have a fairly good perspective. So down here in. And Hartford a few years back, I say a few years back in the 90s and the early 2000s. The Votech had a, we ran a program in conjunction with the fire and the police. One year. Public call a public safety program where they did fire EMS and police or a third of the year was fire. They tested out to the fire one if they weren't 18. They would get the certificate, but they couldn't officially practice till they're 18. Once they turned 18, they could show that and get their certification. They got EMT basic and they also got. Don't only if I'm correct, but it's very similar along the lines of a training of the part-time police officer would get so gave them a test, a taste of all three. I'm unfortunately with funding that program through the school. So, I mean, it goes back to the funding issue is being a big part of this. I know in the state of Vermont. So going back to that, there was 3 or 4 other high schools that had Votech centers in the state. And I don't even know if any of them are still running that program. They used to have one in Brattleboro on the head. I believe up in Newport city up in that area. They had one over in Brattleboro, Bradford, Vermont, Oxbow. So I don't even know if those programs are still running. And then, like I said, one of the biggest problems, obviously was the numbers. So when they looked at, you know, we only have 6, 7, 8 students going through it. The cost student ratio became a factor and obviously with funding to get cut the next level up. So I know that a brand off, they had the program through the Randolph technical center. The technical center there with the, the fire program. We come out of it with a 2 year degree. And unfortunately again with funding, you know, as I do, it all comes down to money. And then we got them a really nice. We got them a really nice burn building there from Montec. Well, you did actually. Yeah, it was really good. Good funding and that, but unfortunately the numbers didn't justify. As much as we fought and on a flip side to, we weren't seeing a tremendous amount of people who go through the programs. And want to stay in Vermont as career firefighters or even as career firefighters. I mean, that was a whole goal. That was going to be like the pipeline to come up through that when they got out of that, they would have that job. And unfortunately, the numbers dwindle to the point where we've only got 8 students for that VTC program that they run it. The cost was just exorbitant and they just ended up cutting that because of. Fiscal restraints. Okay, Katie. Thanks Chris, Katie. Great. Our next question. Senator comes from chief Francis from the South Burlington fire department. And he has a question actually for Dr. More Merrill about the national fire academy. Chief Francis, you're now live on the call. Yes, thank you and good afternoon almost. So, Dr. Merrill more, you know, with the, with the pandemic going on and favorite agencies having to shut down. There's more and more demand. Certainly for the middle managers in both career and firefighting. And EMS as well as getting the middle managers kind of the business sense that they need to run their organizations, whether or not they're a volunteer or career. Are we looking at anything to expand the ability to get some of these folks into into the national fire academy and get them that necessary training and more importantly. The networking that comes out of those programs. Oh, absolutely. That is a great question. Thank you for asking that. So, during the pandemic you are spot on was that a struggle to. Sort of move and change how we had delivered training over time. Absolutely. Just like any other training organization, but we were able to successfully do that and actually train more students online. During the last year 2021, then we had pre pandemic, right? Because of being agile and having these new opportunities. So, not only have we increased the online opportunities, but also the deliveries through the state. And local. Offerings, right? So, making sure that the state still get the money that they need to deliver some of the programs on our behalf. So, looking forward, I mean, if we're talking about, you know, funding, we can always, always use more funding in the fire academy and our capability to deliver to the states and locals. And so we are pursuing budget proposals, even now in that regard, because as you well know, it's already been addressed. There's never enough to be able to get this training out or be able to bring people to the national fire academy in Emmitsburg. And I just want to make your point about the networking. Yes, it is invaluable. The networking that goes on there because the learning that takes place between the students. And what you bring from your perspective, I think is as valuable as any training we deliver on site. So those are just some of the things that are ongoing. But again, to your point, always funding is an issue. And we want to continue to be able to bring people in and push the training out. All right, Dr. Marvel, we'll chat about that this week as well. Okay. Thank you, sir. Katie. Hey, our next question and Senator, I think we have time for a couple more here. Our next question is going to come from Patty, who has a question about grants and maybe some longer lead time for our small departments. So Patty, you are now live on the call. We're not hearing you, Patty. There you go. So I'm from middle sex volunteer fire department. How are you? We are having a problem with the length of time that we have to get these grants in from the time that the packages are put out. We have four to six weeks to write the grant and submit them. We are a very small department active right now. We have six members. So finding time after our job. And getting these grants written, we are not. We are not eligible to get grants. We can't get them in on time. Patty about 50 years ago, I lived on shady real road in middle sex. I remember my neighbor was Walter Champlain, who was a member of the volunteer fire department. Talk to me about it. Okay, Dr. So, certainly I hear you. I think that's the biggest thing that I can say on that is we certainly hear you. We acknowledge, you know, that we need more lead time. What I would suggest. And if I may, and this I'll put my pre fire administration had on as a grant applicant myself. Often, what we encourage folks to do is to have, you know, almost an application in the drawer, right? That you write this out. The no foes don't change that much or the notice of fundings and the requirements. And so maybe think ahead, have something maybe to, you know, standing by when the opportunity arises that that you're prepared. So that's just a practice that I will. I will tell you from my days of being a grant applicant through the years. So, otherwise I hear you. Thank you for that. All right. Let me revert back to the panelists for a moment. Then I'll get back to you. Katie in a second. All we, you know, I hear what Patty. Talks about it's, I want to get back to this issue. I think it is not only the complexity and the time. All we well served in terms of the grant process in Vermont, or can we do better? Who wants to say a word on that? Yeah. I would love to speak to this one. So I serve as one of the grant writers for our department and in the early days of the AFG, we were incredibly successful. The application was easier. The lead time was longer. All of the things we've talked about. And lately, you know, those challenges have proved difficult. We've had to hire grant writers for this. So I don't know that we are serving our volunteer departments, our EMS departments as well as we could with this grant funding. And the micro grants that you mentioned earlier, Dr. Moore. Well, those are helpful. $25,000 doesn't buy much as you well know for the fire service and for EMS. That is basically 3 air packs, which is not enough. And so just thinking about it from that point of view, if we take the micro grant program and perhaps expand that, that may meet more of the need. Okay, great point. I'm going to get back to you Katie. I'm not forgetting you, but I want to ask the volunteer guy, you know, Chris as well. How the hell are you paying buying the equipment that you need on a small town budget? Am I missing something or is that stuff very expensive? Do you have the equipment that you need in the year 2022? Who wants to jump in on that one? What do you think you got? How do you pay for a $1 billion fire truck? So, Senator Sanders, in addition to our operating budgets, the town of Bristol, we receive an annual appropriation for capital expenses. It's a small amount to buy some of those capital purchase that we already mentioned, things like turnout gear, self-contained breathing apparatus, but of course we all have the larger expenses vehicles. So one of my initiatives when I first became the fire chief was to ask the town for their support with this because bonding for fire trucks is not an easy thing to do. And as I already mentioned, we just ordered a new fire truck. How much did the truck cost you? The truck is $625,000. And this is for a pumper truck, a custom pumper. Not a ladder truck, it's a pumper. So, and projecting into the future, the cost of additional apparatus, you know, I just met with my board last Monday about increasing our amount. But, you know, unless towns have the ability to set aside annually some type of an appropriation to save and earn interest on money towards these very expensive purchases. I mean, I don't know how we do it because fundraising is, it's a great public thing to do. It's great PR. However, it doesn't buy fire equipment. They could raise $600,000 at a potluck. I am. Okay. Anybody else want to jump in on the cost of fire equipment? Sean. And then then Jason. Yes, sir. I just wanted to reiterate these grants. It's great if you can get one, but there are a lot of agencies. I think more so EMS. That are not municipalities. So we don't qualify to even apply like the. The safer grant, we can't even apply for it. Dr. Merrill, I think we got to do a lot of thinking. About not only the amount of money and about the complexity of the forms. But making sure we are. Providing opportunity to the organizations. We need it. Okay, so together. Jason. Yes, our budget is just under $60,000 a year for us, which is. Pretty small, but we're pretty conservative and we, we. We stretch things as best we can. We have 3 trucks. The oldest being 5. 2000 and our pumpers of 2014. We coordinate with the select board of when we buy a new truck between. Then buying a greater a loader or other pieces of equipment to help. Keep our town budgets. Pretty even through the year, but as those costs are getting up our $6,000 a year that we stuff away for a truck is. Is this really nothing. I think as the future goes, we're going to have to keep looking ahead and having larger amounts set aside, as was said before. Is there any coordination in the state. About, you know, where use trucks or. The best buy to get, I mean. How you know where to get the best. Deal that you can so the state helping in that regarding your kind of on your own when you purchase seeing these major pieces of equipment. Ryan, do you want to jump in and get any help on that one? I can try. We're pretty much on our own. And it also is very dependent on the needs of your community. Whether it's a ladder truck, a pumper or a rescue truck. What are you looking for in that moment? But you are you are on your own. Okay, Katie back. Let me get back to Katie to get some more questions. Okay, very good. So, Senator, our next question is going to come from James James has a question about what we can do to help provide health insurance. For firefighters and mentions a couple issues like cancer. James, you're now live on the call. Good morning. Thank you for the opportunity to speak. Currently in Vermont. After many, many years of. Fighting and trying to get it through, we had a Safer's grant that was put through that would. Make it so that if. Some firefighter came down with a type of cancer or something like that, it would be covered. Where on the workers calm that it was up to them to prove you did not get it. Through the fire service versus the other way around where you got to prove you did. So, as this finally got through many, again, many years ago. A bunch of this has been left out. For instance, it covers all kinds of cancer. But it will not cover lung cancer. It does not cover a lot of cancer that the females get. And problem is. You know, you got, we're bringing in, we're trying to recruit these people. We're trying to put them in. We're trying to say, you know, we're safe. We're going to make a great safe environment. And granted, the equipment that we're using today is a lot better than it was years ago. But. Stuff happens. And there's been. Many cases in the state where this is happening yet. For my is 1 of the few states that won't cover, for instance, lung cancer. James, thanks. Very much for your question. You know, it reminds me. Exactly the issues we deal with the veterans administration, the VA covers. Certain times of illness, are they service connected? Are they not? We had this issue with 9, 11, the people who went racing. New York City to help deal with that terrible crisis. Who became terribly ill wasn't connected wasn't not connected. Your point is a good point. And I think if people are injured or get illness as a result of. The work they do, they certainly should be covered. So that's an issue we will take a look at as well. Katie back to you. Okay, great. So, Senator, we've had a number of questions from some unaffiliated EMS agency personnel. Obviously we've talked some about the differences between EMS and fire. One of the items that they've mentioned is funding for these standalone unaffiliated EMS agencies. I know you've supported funding for rural EMS training and SAMHSA as part of HHS. But they're also asking about issues like how we can help ensure medications that they stock like Epi pens remain affordable and accessible. And I, I know you've worked a lot on that issue. So I thought we'd bring that one up. They'll get me going on the drug companies. Well, let me just ask the panelists. That's a very good question. Things like Epi pen or the stuff you use to revive people. What's that called the. When somebody over those is not okay. That's all pretty expensive stuff, isn't that? Who wants to comment on are you and it's getting more expensive. What's on that risk. I mean, I may not be the best one answer that because we. We got a lot of medications through Hitchcock. We have an agreement with them. To restock whatever supplies we use and they build a patient. We've had good luck with that. I mean, I can't speak for the. You know, the private entities, how they go about it, but we've had a really good relationship with Dartmouth Hitchcock and their pharmacy with regards to that. So. Well, Jason, you have any thoughts on the cost of medicine and. Um, we just store we ordered as we need. Yes, it has driven our EMS budget up. I don't know. I don't know exactly how much for those items that we've had to had to dish out for money. But yes, it is driven our cost up. That's the whole other issue is, you know, we're trying to deal with the outrageous cost of prescription drugs and medical equipment in this country. Another issue. All right, Katie, what else you got? Okay, great. We're going to take senator we are after it's after 12 o'clock. So I think we'll take another 2 questions. If that sounds good. With you. Great. So our next question is going to come from Andy Johnson. Andy, you are now live with Senator Sanders, Andy Johnson. Yes, I've been a firefighter since 1959. And volunteers all over Vermont. One of my questions is, if I get an accident on my car, it's up to me to take care of it on the use of responding. It's something that can be done about that. Absolutely. That's a great point. So you go racing to a fire, you have an accident. And the responsibility is yours. Is that what you're saying, Andy? I'm assuming that is yes. Yeah. Okay. Thoughts on that. The answer. I mean, that obviously is absurd that just a. Here's somebody doing the right thing trying to get to a fire and has an accident. Should they have to pay the cost of the repairs? Obviously not. I don't know. How would departments handling that issue? Is that an issue that comes up? You see that issue at all. It's a question that's asked and I certainly would encourage anybody to check with whoever price their insurance converges because some insurance carriers, if they. They may not know you're using your personal vehicle to respond to an emergency incident. But, but regardless, we the responders, we need to understand what we are responsible for. And I'm sure in most cases like here in Bristol, you know, if, if something was to occur. It is our responsibility. Of course, we could subsidize that, but that would be an increase in tax dollars because we would have to ask the town for more money to increase our insurance coverage. Mariah, your thoughts on that one. Yeah, I think this is a tough one. We've actually spoken with our fire department insurance about this particular issue in the past. And for us, we have good insurance through the fire department that does cover if you are responding to a call or you're responding to an official event that you are covered through the fire department over and above anything. So it's not out of pocket. It will assist with your in your case. Somebody would be covered. Correct. Okay, Katie. Great. Okay. So this will be our last question and this was sent in written by Stephanie who asks, what can we be doing for our first responders, EMS and fire to support mental health and wellness. This has been an issue for a long time, but it's especially true today. That is a huge issue. And I think. Everywhere I go when I talk to people. I am just overwhelmed by the response of people who are struggling. In Vermont and around this country and you don't have to be and it's magnified. If you're in something like fire or EMS, I was up in St. Johnsbury a couple of months ago and it turns out. Just the day before there was a terrible fire. Somebody died. You know, somebody's taking a body out of a burning building. What does that do to you? Seeing, you know, people overdosing. Seeing all of the things that EMS and firefight to see every day is tough. So, even if you're not in EMS or fire. What we're going through to isolation to. This location of our work lives miss. Pandemic has been terrible for mental health and the studies are all out there increased depression. Anxiety suicidal. Attempts. Drug overdosing. Domestic violence. It's all out there. That's what we're seeing all across this country. So this is really, really tough. But let me throw out maybe to Dr. Merrill. Are we paying any special attention. With the fire and EMS services in terms of what they're going through in this pandemic. Thank you for that. Yes. So, not only US fire administration. I'll just remind everybody that the mission of the fire administration is to strengthen and support. Our responders for your capability to respond in all hazards. Well. What that means is that that is at the beginning it is throughout and it's after the response. Right. That's what I believe that mission is about. And so certainly behavior health is a huge issue. And so one of my special initiatives is to make sure that we are talking about this and recognizing the resilience programs that are already out there. Many of these programs that have been funded by assistance or firefighters grants, not the least of which and Chris, I'll hit on the IFF has one. And it's about building resilience because senators you said. You see things that are not normal and they normalize them. And so this is a mechanism that it has very much to do with the generations. We've already talked about more senior generations were equipped with resilience building. We were allowed to fall down, you know, in our knee get bloody whatever and you get up and move on. And we have generations who have not been prepared, whether they've been raised, you know, with technology in front of them all the time or helicopter parenting. I'm guilty. Those sorts of things. So we have generations that have not built the same levels of resilience to process bad things happening to them. And so I believe we have to as the fire service have a forward initiative to train in resilience. We have to train them to process these things when they've lived in virtual reality or augmented reality and all of a sudden they're faced with actual reality. And there's a divergence that takes place and we have to make sure that they are equipped with resilience tools. You're, you know, relying on your family, your faith, your friends, things that we need tools ourselves to process these things that we will see in this arena. So we are very much going to be involved in perpetuating resilience building in this arena. All right, we've gone on needless to say much longer than I had anticipated. I'm not quite sure that we've even scratched the surface. This, you know, this is an issue that just needs an enormous amount, not only of discussion. We need more new ideas to resolve these problems. We need more help from the federal government, more coordination and help from the state government. We need to educate people in Vermont and around the country about what you guys are doing, which is of such great importance, such great importance. So I want to thank our great panelists and all the people who are watching all the people have asked questions. We're going to jump deeper into this issue and I look forward to working with state officials, the Legislative Governor and my colleagues in Congress and with you, Dr. Merrill as well. So let me just thank everybody again for the incredible work that you do every day. People of Vermont are very appreciative and let's keep going forward together. So thank you all very much. Talk to you, sir. Thanks everyone. Thank you, Senator.