 Welcome to our 42 courses speaker event. Thank you so much for joining us today. If you have the bandwidth do please put your camera on because it's lovely to see people as they join us. We'll let you in the waiting room as you join and thank you very much. We're going to be recording this event just to let everybody know. And today I'm so pleased to have with me Emily Hinks. Emily is the founder of mischief makers. She's based in Amsterdam. She's somebody that I know really just from doing our creative effectiveness course with 42 courses. But it's so funny in these courses that we do we see people's videos within our courses. It just sort of feel like you know them so it's absolutely lovely to have Emily join us at today's event. And I was just saying to her before we all joined on the call that I just read this super article that I would love for you to all go away and read in campaign from Josh Bulmar who says we need to embrace our cringe. And Emily and I both said that was absolutely how how we like to go about creativity you have to be really true to yourself and we're not really into being cool. So, Emily, let me hand over to you first. And just for everybody who's joined us today just introduce yourself. Tell us a little bit how you got to where you are today and where you're at at the moment over to you Emily. I will do thank you so much Louise for that introduction and yeah it's a real pleasure to be here. I've been a big fan of 42 courses for a long time so yeah it's an honor to be in some of the courses and to be doing this together. And as Louise mentioned I'm English but I live in Amsterdam. I still can't speak very much Dutch, Dutch, all I can say is her last pindicasse, which means oh well peanut butter. Yeah, so based here in Amsterdam and I'm the founder of Miss Chief Makers we're a future of work consultancy. We mainly focus on how organizations bring people together to work and learn together. So this can look like us helping companies upskill to the future of work so really how we're keeping that human connection and the power of collaboration alive when it's virtual or when it's hybrid. So it's either upscaling and facilitation skills which is kind of our core competency with the Miss Chief, or it looks like them hiring us to facilitate big gigs for them. So whether that's off-sites or projects that they're leading with their partners or leadership programs, they bring us in for that heavy hitting complex events. I also am the founder of Roots in which is on nonprofit, and that's all about empowering young talent from underprivileged backgrounds to break into the creative industry. Yeah, so that's what I'm doing now. Fantastic so interesting and again we were just quickly saying before we joined the call, people talk about the future of work, but of course we're in it. Some people are always a bit yawned to be still talking about how how work is going at the moment, but that's the fact we're in it. It's progressing we go step one foot step forward one step back, but your company is very much involved with how to make the different ways of working, basically work. And you must have been learning yourselves during this period. And I saw now in LinkedIn you were involved in recently in one particular project with a very large number of people's about 200 people. And that must have been pretty scary. Yeah, it was, it was a that was a really good done that was an event that we collaborated with Miro in around it was an event about the future of work, and it was a hybrid event. And we were really kind of putting on money where our mouth is in, yeah, making it, while we were talking about hybrid and how to collaborate hybrid hybrid Lee, making sure that we did that in a hybrid setting. And it is very complex to collaborate with 200 people and make sure that it's human and make sure that it's engaging but that's really our expertise and it is possible and that's what we wanted to prove to the participants, because we were kind of looking at the future of work holds and embracing the fact to your point Louise that we're on the forefront of it all now, like our generation of professionals, we're creating the best practices we're setting the precedent for what how the new world of work works. You know, it's, it's, we're really lucky and privileged to be in this position that we can let go of some of the things that didn't work in the old world of work, and start to kind of let go of habits and systems that didn't serve, and create new ones that do serve that are inclusive that are engaging. So a lot of the work that we do is help teams and organizations do things like meeting culture transformation. So how are we making sure that okay our meetings are productive and efficient, but also they're not making people want to like bang their head against the wall, and it's not only the same person speaking or being heard. And there's a bit of this romanticized view we look back at the past and say like oh but meetings we just knew how to do them and they all worked really well. But did they, like, were they really always efficient where people enjoying the meetings that they were going to be like that's time well spent. So yeah, it's been great. There are many positives to come from this flip that people are really embracing the opportunity to, to work better together and to make workplaces more human. And I think as well that you mentioned that we were kind of learning this. We were also going through this switch ourselves at the front. I think what was really was lucky for us is that I used to work with hyper islands. And we've been working on designing a lot of virtual courses for them. So we run like a pioneering program around like innovation that was fully a fully virtual course in like 2018 or 17. And that meant that we had a lot of experience at mischief makers in wanting to make sure that our quality of making sessions be engaging and enjoyable and interactive translated to online. So we worked on a lot of that previously. So when the switch came that everybody was suddenly thrown online, and we're really thinking how do we do this. We were in the position to be able to feed that forward to our clients and to our network and say hey, here's how we've been doing it and help them come along so we've been quite on the forefront. We also launched our hybrid course in 2020, as soon as the lockdown started to open so again with hybrid we've had a lot of time to play with it and learn how to do it. And of course, you know we've been doing this for over two years now all of us meeting online, some people. I think a lot of us working in offices just between everybody's doing this but of course they're not you know people are going to work in the pretty standard way. And we've all discovered ways that work for us. What interests me at the moment is that on the one hand it seemed like beforehand we were saying offices they're not great for creativity. You know they're not the best place because I remember the video from yourself just saying things like you all sit around a table, and you've got a physical barrier in front of you. And now everybody's, that's the argument why we've got to get back or we've got to have them sleeping water if anyone says the water cooler effect one more time. I think I'm going to scream but you know and these are the arguments. Now I will say this argument does tend to come from a certain type of person we all know who they are. But what can we, what can we do to make our meetings online more conducive to sharing creative thought and and being inspiring. Really good question. And it's true the whole water cooler we're missing the water cooler. I don't know how many people were gathered around a water cooler. So you're the only place any work was ever done. No, but I think there is something to be said for those micro micro social interactions that were happening in the office and now what can tend to happen if people if organizations or teams or managers are intentional about the way that their remote or decentralized teams are spending time together. And this is some of the work we do around meeting culture transformation. Then they can come fall into the trap of like us just having a meeting when we need to get that piece of work done and they're the only time we see each other in person. So I think we need to do some of that like social glue or lubricant let's say, and actually, that's really important for building trust and connection between people. When we talk about like cultivating collaborative creativity, which is the best type of creativity I would argue for a workplace because different perspectives leads to stronger results. So when we're talking about cultivating that environment, virtually for collaborative creativity, you need the people that are working together on creating together or sharing ideas with one another to have a foundation of connection. There's studies that show there's a great study there's a great TED talk around of putting two strangers into a room and the levels of cortisol and stress that they're feeling if they don't know one another are relatively high. And if they play five minutes of I think they did like egg at the the guitar game. I don't remember which one it is, the PlayStation or whatever, if they played a game together for five minutes, then the brain. Guitar Hero, I think. Guitar Hero, that's not it. It was very good at that in my day. Anyway, go on. Yes, Guitar Hero. So they played together for five minutes. And then they already register each other as a friend or someone that they know the cortisol is lower they feel they basically physiologically and mentally they feel more ease with this person and also playing together playing games together with people. It lowers our barrier to looking, we lose some of our inhibitions around looking silly, because if we look silly and we fail in a game together, we've got that practice with the other person. So when we come together to work and share ideas, we've got a lived experience of not being judged by that person. So it's really important to have to build these connections and relationships with people before you ask them to create together. Because if they if they are the inhibitions are holding them back, they'll be self censoring and not sharing ideas. Just even even in a standard meeting, we talk about designing kind of meetings as seeing them as a journey. And there's a launch explore and land part to that journey. And the launch part is really having everybody arrive and feel comfortable. If you have people's voice wants in the room at the start they're much more likely to bring it in later so that launch part is about getting people to feel relaxed open up feel comfortable break the ice. The explore part is getting to grips with whatever you're doing together so coming up with ideas and the land is really what do we do how can we do that they continue this going forward. And so even if you've got half an hour meeting just spending five minutes or longer at the start, doing a bit of that launch and getting people to feel comfortable doing a check in, ideally like doing some type of exercise we call them hot stops. And then it's going to pay off. Like if you spend that time up front you'll really feel the quality of it when you do then come to the activity of creating together. And that's really lovely to hear you talking about research behind the power of play we all know these things instinctively. But then when we come to the business environment, as it is with say, you know, the, the brand research from buyer and shop. And really, once we're in business we really feel like we need to have that behind us to give sort of validation, even though instinctively we know we know it from doing it but if you're trying to sell the idea to somebody else you really need that don't you behind you to feel confident of what you're claiming. And I would say indeed like when I when working with agencies or like that are naturally very creative places but they're now online. I think anybody here that is coming to a creative session with someone within the teams and it's virtual look for some low hanging fruit, like just just use one meeting where you try and use a hot start, or where you use a mirror board with like a creative activity instead of just saying, let's brainstorm some ideas. And then, like, it will make a difference. And then afterwards you've got a bit of that's a lived experience by the people that you've got a use case for it and then just say hey can you give me an hour next time to do this with just find those quick meetings so you can get people to experience the difference of posting those meetings a little bit differently and using tools like mirror, but also like we've got tools, we can still, we can play a game with anyone already should we play a game. Absolutely. So if people are able to, you might need to turn be comfortable with turning your camera on momentarily, if you're cool with that. But just an example of what I want to show is like there's the tools like mirror where you have the virtual post it and so on, but you're still all in a physical space, and sometimes computers can get us a bit like, you know, we're locked into this space so helping people remember that there's a tactile world around them can help open up. And this is an energizer that I would play either at the start or midway through a creative meeting that was virtual, for example. Great, let's go. Okay, so can you put random words into chat so it could be sun, peanut butter, anything yet great bubble gum. Just random words, cats, rain, great notebook. So practical, lovely coffee. Okay, and now Louise, can I ask you to pick three words out of the ones that have come in here. Great, we'll have flowers from Marissa. We have coffee from Maria. Argentina unusual we'll have Argentina from Giles. Perfect, we've got flowers, coffee and Argentina. So now we've each got a minute to draw on a poster or a piece of paper in front of you. Coffee Argentina. So off you go flowers coffee Argentina. Argentina is a tricky one but hey, our creative minds can go there. We've got another 30 seconds ish. We're not going to judge any of you on your drawing, I can tell you, the drawing is absolutely appalling. No pressure on drawing style like the weirder and wilder the better stick men are all welcome. Okay, now if you're ready what I would love to invite you to do is to just hold these up the camera. Let's see what you got. Beautiful. Great. Yeah. Nice. See the different ways that people have got them. Marissa, I know you said it would be hard for you to talk but I would love to hear what you've got there. If you can whisper it for a second. Yeah. They really known for steak. Steak. Yes. Okay, show us again. Oh, I know. Yeah. And Chris, hey, I didn't realize that it was you nice to see you. Okay, show me what you've got Chris. Lovely. Lovely. It's building up and like that tank Chris. Yeah, I'm not on mute brilliant. I just, yeah, wake up in Cape Town. It's amazing here. Sorry for being late. I was watching a documentary on Argentina and the Falklands war. So, so a tank came to mind. See where different people's minds. Interesting Argentina seems to be the thing that's causing, you know, the most creativity who would have thought who was it was it was Giles who said Argentina, maybe Giles would show us his sheet of drawing. You're asking where's the Argentina in there. So, so actually, I'm sorry about this is a football reference. If I did that. Okay. These United had an Argentinian manager called Marcelo Bielsa who used to sit on a bucket by the side of his other pitch so that's the bucket. And flowers and radiance of creative person. Well, we haven't had we just haven't had Maria we can't leave Maria out do join us Maria and show us your drawing. Is that mountains in Argentina. I want that cup of coffee. I'm hoping there are some mountains in Argentina. And Emily, did you did you show us how you, how you created. I went I just thought of son. I was like, oh to be in Argentina right now and then I had a flower coffee cup. I'll fess up because I'm last up you want me to read my writing backwards but it actually says don't cry for me. I love it. Already just like let like a minute, the different angles that we already came into with just those little prompts and of course it maybe has nothing to do with the session that you just been having and creativity but it just unlocks some of that like lateral thinking that people, yeah, woken the source of the time as well and I'm just picking my notebook up here because I scribbled before we joined a quote from John Cleese. Most creativity has most creatives have a child like faculty might be facility I can't remember writing a faculty for play. So I think we all agree, the power of play to bring forward our creatives juices. Now, the other thing I'd like to talk to you about is, I feel like recently I've read lots of articles that are talking about sort of almost like a dear of creativity or the creativities in a crisis or if we're talking specifically then about advertising that maybe it doesn't have the creative effectiveness to things that are knitting together that it had in the past. I wonder if you could sort of talk about that for a little bit. I think that there's something to be said. Again, it always comes back to me about like human relationships and connection and I think that the echo effect of the being less of that connection time is potentially felt within what's happening within agency the agency landscape right now I mean I know there have been other things that play previously as well but it takes love and attention intentionality to create the environment for creativity if we think about offices like agencies how different they were to traditional workplaces you know in the heyday of advertising you know where everything like course culture goes beyond having a cool pool table and you know funky chairs, but it does something like your environment and how you spend the way you're spending your time and your connection with people. It does something and actually John please I'm struggling to remember the exact the exact phrasing of the quote but there's another quote when it comes to hybrid or remote working that we've used recently that talks about how the ideas for creative ideas they grow in spending time with one another and then they're kind of like built when he was then spending time on his own. And that tension and relationship between individual kind of time on my own to think and be creative is all well and good but it has to be fueled and fed by spending time with creative others. Yeah, and it's just easy in any work day to just be bogged down in the normal meetings and with the work that you've got in front of you. So using tools like discord, or there is another one that came up recently I can't remember the name that looks like it's going to be the future it's basically like a virtual office space and you can see where people are moving around and if you get close you can chat together. The spaces like that where you can still work independently but you're with others, even virtually can already like make a big difference to fueling that creativity, because I think we can all agree in the creative world that your creativity does need fueling and it needs exercising. And if we're feeling a bit disparate, like remote, literally physically remote and removed from others. Yeah, you feel the impact of it. And I was just coming back to this article that I mentioned at the start of our conversation about being more cringe. I'm really interested in me because I feel like you're over the last two and a half years. And I've argued this with a lot of people is that we have become sort of more more authentic more sort of true to ourselves and the barriers have come down as we've all connected with each other in our own homes, you know, some people only place they consume from is their bedroom you seem very personal spaces. And so our argument was saying that the ad agencies, you know, are trying are still trying to be too cool. So that kind of surprised me, because, as I say, I feel authenticity we have become sort of more real and we're not putting up with any of the silly things that people are. And so, you know, why do you think that it hasn't sort of trickled down, you know, into, into ad land or maybe it has maybe, maybe his premises wrong. No, I think that that's a really interesting insight and actually, yeah, I think it's true that now that the relationship between managers and their people for examples, because it's really shifted in through Corona because people were dealing with, you know, the realities of your homeschooling or struggling with mental health or isolation or loneliness and that didn't used to be something that managers were kind of responsible for being involved in and that barrier was really removed when we went through COVID so that the relationship dynamic is definitely shifted and I would argue that it is a struggle to take it back to being removed from caring about the individual well being on that level. There's been a lot more room for us to be real sort of multifaceted humans, and that's been a positive shift. So there's, there's definitely the shift into being able to be a full human in the workplace. And where we used to hear a lot of tension around that was in more kind of corporate work environments was the kind of like I put on my work self, and the human self, and that's definitely shifted and we're seeing corporate environments embrace that so I mean we were working with the UAE government, and I did not expect them to play as much as they did creative and silly. We have a quote in mischief that or mantra seriously awesome results don't always require serious behavior. And actually if you're helping people loosen up and engage and enjoy something the quality of the work increases. So we try and champion that but we often ease people in. So the UAE government for example, we started with some lighter energizers and games and creative exercises, but by the end they were playing like Buzzy B, like around the room and they were asking for it, which was was wild and we see that with a corporate space. But in the agency landscape I think what's interesting is the corporate space was maybe more about being professional and formal. Whereas in agencies I guess it's, it's a little bit kind of more subliminal, the way of like of being cool, and being like socially accepted versus like it's not I'm putting on my agreed social etiquette of being formal in a corporate workplace. I'm trying not to show that I'm anything but naturally cool I'm not putting something on here so maybe it's harder to let go a bit of that. Guys, and again I would say that there's a lot to do like role modeling as well like we do a lot of trainings in agencies around creative confidence around gravitas training which is a big one about people shifting up different roles within an agency and how to walk into a room with different stakeholders and feel confident and authentic. And there it's really kind of a lot of the session is talking to people about that shared want to be more authentic and to let go of a bit of the mask and the that it's okay and that they can role model that to one another and that starts to breed and more of kind of letting go and being willing to willing to look silly. So really smart observation and it may well be that it's, it's an industry issue. That's very interesting. So do everybody who's joined us thank you so much and do put your questions for Emily in the chat and I'll bring you in to put your question. Just before we go to the questions. Maybe I can just sort of really sort of move back to the beginning and we all talk about creativity so easily and it just drops into our conversation. But then sometimes when we're in front of somebody else, and we're talking about the power of creativity. I want to go back to what are really kind of core understanding is of create creativity or do you mind maybe trying to put that into words for us I think it's something that, even though we're all trying to be creative, sometimes we do struggle to get beyond the very stiff description of just being say, you know, in the arts or being writing poetry or that's definitely not what we're talking about when we're talking about in business. Yeah, absolutely. Well, I have to borrow from because I just think he puts it so for me the best description of creativity is from Sir Ken Robinson. And it's really he describes creativity as applied imagination. So it's the idea that creativity isn't something that is reserved for the creative elite so like poetry arts that it's really something that lives within every person and if you have the ability to imagine you have the ability to be able to be creative. And that that's a muscle that can be grown and worked on through the utilizing tools or techniques to help you just reconnect with creativity that I mean so come Robinson talks a lot about the creativity within schools and how it's kind of squished out of us a bit when we as we grow up. And so yeah I really think that creativity is just an innate ability that we all have to navigate and look at the world differently to see problems or pain points or opportunities and imagine around them to come up with your ideas. That's great Emily. Chris has made an interesting comment in our chat and maybe I'll bring you in Chris to join us. Your comment there about trust and creativity and from Mark in our in area of body language maybe just chat with Emily about that. Yeah, hopefully my internet remains stable so like a little notification so apologies in advance if it messes up a second but yeah I was chatting to this guy I don't know if you met Mark Bowden, Emily. I haven't he's awesome I'll make a plan. Anyway he's this sort of body language specialist and and based he's an English chat based in Canada. I was kind of nervous Canada and got to meet up with him. And he was saying before the pandemic is really interesting he, his job was. I guess kind of like he has consulting does a lot of consulting and so he would have to travel a lot and meet people and, you know, getting them to be confident that he was the right person was sometimes a challenge they didn't you know some people just wouldn't hire you unless they'd met you in person. And all that it's just totally been blown out the water, like now it's totally normal to meet someone and call like this and then go great okay and you seem like a normal sensible person, fantastic. I'll trust you and let's go with it. And I think there must be such an interesting link between that trust and creativity because I'm looking back at my advertising days, the, the, the best times where the best work came out were often when there was also the highest trust. I mean, it, I think it kind of all of it links into a bit of everything like it is sort of, you know, you get the high trust because you know each other really well but you've also probably been working with each other for a little while like so there's all these different things that come in to build up to, to be able to get into a space where you can be super creative and you feel comfortable to be that, to be that person but yeah I don't know. I have a brilliant question for you. I'm sorry, sorry for joining you. Yeah, I think that that's a really, really great insight and so true and speaks to as well why there's maybe a bit of this deficit of creativity right now because there's not been as much space and time for that trust to build up in the way that it used to just be kind of took it for granted that it maybe we are going for lunches and dinners and you have to work drinks and stuff together that where some of that can form and we talk a lot like mischief we focus on facilitation and the facilitators role to create a container create spaces where there is. I mean, we used to say psychological safety but that's been compared a bit more with like psychological bravery. So spaces where people can feel brave to like shoot the idea out there and, and speak up and that it's it's like absolutely crucial to create workspaces and teams whether there is a lot of psychological safety or there's the platform to be psychologically brave in that space. And there's different things you can do to create it but again it's like about investing time and energy into those activities and it's a precursor to them so we can't just be like people are coming up with great ideas. What do we need to do okay we'll just push them to come up with more ideas are trying more creative exercises and actually it's a step before it's creating the environment where people can get into that mindset and headspace. So you, you kind of need to probably be be going in each quarter and doing stuff rather than like hey come in let's do this one thing for a half day off now and then like bye. Yeah, yeah, exactly. And we've talked about like doing culture evolutions. So now like the culture used to live in the office now it's with decentralized so where does that culture and those connections and trust building, where does it live. Yes, off sites, I would argue like an absolutely crucial part of that or on sites, some some companies really people are rarely in the office but one day a month or two days a month we are all in the office together, or we're off site somewhere. And they're a big part but also like the, like the weekly team moment in between and the team retreats, rather than the full company retreat and like the leadership like that needs to be those human spaces and just building in that rhythm. Yeah, it's so transformational. I mean, the most helpful exercise that, you know, has there been any exercise that you ran pre COVID and then like you're running now and you're like oh wow this, this was like okay before and now it's working really well has that happened with anything you've done. That's a really good question. I don't know about any that like, like work way better online than they do did in person but I would say that I'm yet to find one that doesn't work online that did in person, as long as you approach it with creativity. There's really so much you can do. I think presentation training, there is ones that you can do that is really suited for virtual because people are making presentations virtually, but if you want someone to really build up that prowess and also be a bit in person, then then it's good to have a bit of that in person but yeah it's it's amazing and really rewarding to see like, it's so possible to still get that like vibe and energy and commitment from everybody online. In terms of creative spirit flowing the question from the chat, there's one I can share the link to it called the party exercise, which is really great for like divergent and convergent thinking like getting in that mindset. I think, I mean, I think that was when I first met you that was the best thing ever was, we did the rightie jewelry. Yeah, one of my favorite games to play. We've got it online I'll share it with you. Maybe maybe just tell us what what was involved in that Emily. Yeah, so here I'm putting the party exercise in the chat here but the rightie jewelry it's basically they call it broken telephone also in some places so I would write down a short story or like a small premise like Chris came to Amsterdam and fell in the canal. So that could be a story and then I would pass it on to the person next to me, and they would read that put it to the back and they would draw what they've just read. And then the next person receives just the drawing and then writes it on the next piece of paper, and it continues and then you unfold the story and see like how it's been interpreted or misinterpreted for a much to comical effect. I think that you've brought that up Chris that's the annual Christmas game that we put consequences we call it to you put your hands and he met she and he said to her and as you say any of those sort of group things are super for bringing down walls between people and also it's just reminding me Chris in the creative effectiveness course. I don't know if any of you will remember but there's an image which is super it's a big red button. And it says it's something like press press here for creativity on demand, which really is the essence of it all it is so hard, isn't it to perform in a, in a creative way. Yeah. Love that from Maria, the comments lovely during lockdown said just started having virtual morning coffees often just chit chat. I think it is that chit chat isn't it that that sort of helps so much it's, it's the stuff that's not written down in the rule books that's often more important than the stuff that's written down. We must do this. It's the unspoken things. Granted as well. 100%. We'll have to do this in person next time. Great chat. These sort of surprise you come on the call and you get a plane ticket to Bali or something and we can all make a meet up there. Maybe I'll just bring, maybe I'll just bring Maria in. I don't know if you have bandwidth there Maria to turn on your video but just to maybe join us and tell us about the technique that that you've used or things that you think have made it easier to connect. Yeah, so it has actually been this morning coffee session they are like voluntary so it's a random number of people whoever has the time they join in, even for a couple of minutes and then they go and it's like a half an hour dedicated morning, this space where we meet on the teams teams and we are there all just in our, you know, morning, like, hair is not done nothing we are just like saying hello when she chatting. The thing I like about that Maria is in a way, the lack of sophistication of it is so how simple is that just getting together for a coffee. Anything difficult like sometime we've been having these little games that we played to try to get to know each other better like with the coffee cups guessing like it's telling something about the personality of the other one like what kind of favorite coffee cup they have or what kind of painting they have on the wall what's their favorite painting and then we are always guessing like this one looks like it belongs to that person and all that so. It's just been like a fun way to getting to know each other and I feel like we've been getting much closer during this lockdown like we didn't hang out this much together at the office because everybody was just busy doing their thing. We didn't use to take the time out to just be together there. That's lovely that's a very positive note from Maria thank you so much for joining us and sharing that and maybe just before we wrap up then Emily. I don't know are you able to maybe come up with sort of three top tips for encouraging connectivity or hate to put you on the spot but maybe maybe you could just share something like that that we could practically take away. Yeah, and I think definitely treating or being intentional about making spaces either within your existing meetings or creating other spaces where you can like just show be together as humans, just like Maria was just talking about. So to build those social bonds and create a more of a sense of trust and connection with one another. I would say that as one. Second, I would yet just be bold and creative about to that silliness that cringeness of like actually like being playful together and playing games or energizers or using a creative technique will really like make a difference to your mindset. And now your kind of brain gets whirling. So using energizers, there's loads on facilitator I just shared a link to one of the exercises we do in the chat. One of the ideas are bank for facilitators resource bank. And then last but not least, what would I say. Yeah, I think the point that Chris and I were just mentioning as well is like challenging more on an organizational level to look at kind of what is the rhythm of building a decentralized work culture. So from off sites and everything in between just really starting to influence. Yeah, how do we, how do we build that psychological safety in order to create the environment for us to then be able to get created together. Well, thank you so much for joining us Emily it's been really great to pick your brain on this really interesting subject and it's been a joy for me to actually be able to speak with you as I said I only knew you from the recordings and of course it's really lovely to talk and connect to you thank you everybody who joined us and we'll put the recording up to share with everybody and we'll speak to you again soon thank you so much Emily thanks everybody.