 Expelling me from the APC will cause more crisis, says Zamfara. APC Chiftain, Senators Garba Marafa, he threatens my Melaibuni, and World Bank blames terrorism for economic decline in Nigeria. This is cross politics, I am Mary Anacol. A chiftain of the ruling all-progressive Congress APC from Zamfara State, Senator Kabiru Garba Marafa, has brushed off threats by the Governor, May Melaibuni led caretaker Extraordinary Convention Planning Committee of the party to throw him out of the APC, saying doing so would only aggravate the problems afflicting the party. Marafa urged Governor Buni to respect the rule of law, saying the Yobes State Governor should stop deluding himself as the national chairman of the APC, declaring that he is the only chairman of the party's convention planning committee. Marafa threatened to institute legal actions against Governor Buni's CECPC over what he termed as gross violations of the party's constitution in the conduct of the party affairs. The party had also threatened to wield the big stick, saying Marafa's actions and utterances constitutes insolveration and reduction of party issues to a personality contest. Joining us to discuss this is Adaji Usman, he is the publicity secretary of the all-progressive Congress at the FCT chapter and we also have Byoru Shoumi, a political analyst joining us. Thank you very much Mr. Shoumi for joining us. It's my pleasure. Great. Let's start with you. This is very interesting. This is not also the first time we're talking about the internal crisis within the APC, but it seems to be getting to a boiling point and Marafa now seems to be the one who is, you know, attacking the leadership of the party. But not just Marafa, we see issues around the country. I'd like to remind you that the River State still has its party issues. We have the senator Abe faction and we also obviously have the faction that is led by the minister for transportation. I mean, I could list all of the problems that, you know, the party is facing, but why do you think that Marafa is so hell bent on taking on the bunny-led APC? Yes, APC has its own share of political problems. When it comes to the internal organization and management of the political affairs, we have seen how parallel congresses were held in quite a number of states controlled by the APC. We also know already that the convention conducted calls and presided over by Ftuni. It's a question of giving a power decision of the court, judgment of the court, when you post it. We already know that APC may be on the street, but in terms of in the garage of the convention itself. Now, with senator Marafa, its own issue is very clear. He's complaining about the hesitation of the turning of the convention planning committee. In his view, the convention planning committee should have ceased to exist after the last convention. And he felt that it is only the national executive committee that could constitute a new convention planning committee. And given the fact that this has not taken place, because no next meeting has actually taken place, it's of the view that the convention planning committee is acting ultra-virus of the rules and constitutions of the APC, and therefore is threatening to challenge it in court. Of course, the chairman would have known of that. Of course, he's the chairman of the convention planning committee. I think he got carried away when he threatened to get in a spell committee. Of course, the convention planning committee does not have such power. It is only the national executive committee of the part that can do that, or suspension of the work which is quite clear, or by the national working committee of national executive council that it may apply. Not a convention planning committee would choose to suck a member. And that is why the senator is challenging the chairman. It's gradually becoming like a major toss between himself and the convention chairman. And because he believes the laws of the site, so therefore he's hoping to test it in court. With that as it may, it will only create another new one of uncertainty, not to be surrounding the past convention, but also a future one, because if he ends up to be right, then APC will have a problem. It means the first convention is being challenged, may not be, and then you are going into another, oh, which, in my know, which also may mean it's not like if we are to look at it from the case value, rather than, you know, studying the constitution properly or waiting for the courts to interpret the constitution. So I think this is the best APC is taking in this vessel with Manaphar on this matter. I want to quickly ask, could this have been avoided, because this is not the first time that, you know, threats of taking the party leadership to court has been made. I remember, you know, before the last, I think they had re-registrations for their members, and we saw a lot of, you know, disagreements across the country. And then of course, before the Congress is also, we've seen several threats. Could the APC at the national level have avoided all of this, because it seems to keep, it's like a hydro-headed monster that every time you cut off one head, another one grows up. And this time it's Senator Manaphar. Next time it could be another person. Could this have been avoided? Yes, it's totally avoidable. If you look at the problem the party is facing in terms of how it's managing its affairs, it centers around the observance of rules of the same political party. That is the constitution of it. The challenge is being true or hoped to be true, you know, as the party leadership is simply over what people think are lack of respect for the rules of the party. In the case of Manaphar, this is easily avoidable. You know, it's just a matter of calling National Executive Council Committee and then get the neck to reconstitute the Conventional Planning Property. That is if Manaphar is right in the first place. And if you look at the other problems, it's setting all the many of the state chapters. It's simply again avoidable. If you remember, including Pestos Kayamu, a serving minister actually won the party about the implication of the leadership of APC leadership to be thrown into question. And they felt it is better to sort that out now, which was not hidden. And because of that, you know, it could also be a matter for adjudication. So why you look at the two situations we are talking about, you know, they are totally avoidable. But Nigeria being what it is, many people thought can do it categorically to get this man to back off or get that to back off. But forgetting the fact that that will not be, that is not the right way to go. It is better to stay, you know, by the rules, you know, governing the conduct of political affairs or any party than to seek to circumvent it. Let's talk about what happened this morning. We all woke up to the story of the, you know, the office, the national headquarters of the APC being cordoned off and, you know, surrounded by security officials because of a threat that they suspected. And this again caused a question what the party really is doing to deal with its issues, whether internally or nationwide. I mean, we haven't heard anything as to that threat, but we did hear it and see, you know, videos coming from the, you know, party headquarters this morning. What are your thoughts? Well, the reasons for the deployment of the police force to APC headquarters is not perfect. The reason is very clear. The goal of the police is to ensure the security of the building and people working inside the building. Tempers are building up, you know, they're planning up. There are contending forces within the APC, you know, both at state level and we're beginning to have, you know, at national level, Manafa, you know, challenging the convention planning committee. So the worry for the police is how do we ensure that none of the factions, closely, currently, you know, spring a surprise by coming to occupy the sector or sacking the elected officials on luckily a leg up, you know, and for them, it's a major issue. There is also the worry about use of thoughts and yes, the police is right in this instance, you know, to take a proactive step, you know, to protect the APC sector provided the workers are allowed to continue to function inside that sector and elected officials are allowed to continue or none of the officials are allowed to continue, you know, to operate within the sector. Otherwise, the police have no business interpelling in the internal affairs of the political party, but within the context of protecting lives and properties, then I think they are back there in the proactive. Let's talk about the suspension of the Congress in Zamfar, you know, they had ward congresses, but then they suspended those activities. I'd like to quote the APC in Zamfar State. They said that they explained that they temporarily suspended the activities of the Zamfar ward congresses and the committee because it received intelligence reports on it. Now, Senator John Aquano Daire, the National Secretary, and of course the Ketika and Extraordinary Convention Planning Committee gave this explanation today, or rather on Monday in Abuja. He said that the attention had been brought to the ununiformed and misguided comments made by Senator Marafa regarding the APC congresses held in Zamfar on Saturday, November 13. He said while the APC will not join issues with Senator Marafa, who's supposed to be the party's leader in Zamfar, but chooses to denigrate the party and its leaders, he said it's important to set the record straight. For avoidance of doubt, Aquano Daire still speaking said, the APC received intelligence reports bordering on security of the Zamfar APC ward congress committee, hence the need for us to temporarily suspend the activities. He said it was necessitated by a letter of November 5 to the chairman of the committee, Alhaji Ibrahim Kabir Masari. So they're saying that they're going to have more and more consultations. Now we also know that, I think, about 47 young people from Khatuzu ward in Bade local government area have dumped the APC for the PDP. And this is also because of all of the infighting within the party. Now we know that elections are around the corner. Next year is campaign season. So we're going to see a lot more of these criss-crossing. Many pundits early this year had said that the APC might not necessarily stand strong, as strong as it was in 2015, come 2023. And many others have said that, well, it's just one of those things that happens just before the election season. But do we see a strong and formidable APC come 2023 with all that's been happening and all that's not been addressed? Yes. Let me just briefly comment on that. You know, talking probably about the issue first. In the case of Sankara, it has always been a very hot potato. We remember the outcome of last election, we knew all the water came from Sankara state. Marafai has a very strong character, very strong real person, highly influential within Sankara state and therefore capable of creating problems if he's not happy with a particular situation. Now, in relation to APC threats to spell Marafai, I don't see what the party stands again because it's more likely going to create more problems for the APC. We are likely going to see more defections if that happens and that may threaten the party's chances of being able to occupy the seat of power. Now, probably on APC chances generally, coming elections, now more broadly, the party standing certainly is very few with the public, not only with the politicians, but we don't not remember the problem. We have seen most of the promises betrayed, you know, in terms of the increase in wealth price, the value of Nairatu dollar is not parity, we now have a huge gap between the Naira and the dollar currently trading at about five points, Nairatu dollar, we have never gotten this bad when it comes to a single. We also know that the cost of living is going up and worker salaries are not being increased, so consequently many workers are receiving a port. That's what it means and there are huge number of people, you know, caught in the poverty trap, we have 10 million kids, you know, who are roaming the streets, they are called street kids, you know, I'm a jury or whatever name they call, they don't seem to have any future or they are not stakeholder within their own community. We have huge security problem and nation has never been so badly threatened as we have now. The country has been challenged from left, right and center by those who think that their hopes and aspirations are not being realized and asking for the right to set the definition. So all these factors certainly must have impacted much on APC to the extent that the party needs to reflect on what realistically, on what their chances are and what they need to do to obtain power. One of the major issue that will determine whether the party can obtain power or remain as one is the question of who becomes the presidential candidate of APC. If you have the presidential candidate of APC imagine in a way that all the party gladiators and rank and file across the country are able to embrace the person then maybe that can give a name for who, optimism for APC. Does the issue of zoning not come to play here, let's not forget. The issue of zoning is a big deal. So whether the party gladiators ban behind a person, a particular person or not, does zoning not come to play? Because if everybody likes a particular person but not from the zone that everybody wants that person to come from right now, the south is canvassing for a president whether he's going to be from the southeast or she's going to be from the south south or the southwest is another issue but then the south is not banning behind the southern agenda. What then? That is the point I was about to call your interjection. What you see is that the party's divided, when it comes to presidential ticket, the party's divided in two. You have the north and the south. We have seen the powerful governors from the north align with the traditional last moment to challenge their southern governors on their position that they not should allow the next presidential candidate of APC to come from the south. That is currently being challenged and that will cause a major problem not only for the party but for the country if they're not able to resolve this and make a big deal. In my view and rightly so, many people think that even the challenges the country is faced with it is a lot better and in a national's interest to allow the south to produce the next presidential candidate. The north cannot say they are relying on chair number to decide because you have different ethnic groups over 350 distinctive languages within the country and therefore it is not straightforward matter like that it is not a matter where you bring in people, you have nomads across the west Africa coming in to vote in Nigeria and then you claim your authority that will not be acceptable to people in the north particularly but there are people who actually claim that that is an allegation then that it is baseless that outsiders are being allowed to vote in the country, in the northern part of the country it is no more an allegation if you remember the last election the president of Nigeria publicly came to panel and openly campaign it is no more an allegation now we have seen we have seen we have seen Pulane et. men moving across the border with ease in thousands women all over the whole country and currently we are doing registration nobody is going to stop them they are doing national ID card joining the national ID card scheme no one is stopping them because we have been told that all Pulane et. no matter where they are and they are from Nigeria that is the argument being pushed by their so when you have that situation on your hand we have people who can freely move from one part of the country outside the country to a part of the country and then they are allowed to stay to do whatever they like of course people are banned to start asking questions about majority is that majority does that include those who are moving in or out of the country at different point in time but the fact of the matter is is an internal problem of APC that we are really focusing on at the end of the day if they failed to resolve this issue and make it we may end up with a fractured APC or with a depleted APC or an APC to empower the center this is the reality of the matter the issues are so far-fetched the sentiments are so deep and therefore I don't think we can easily crack about paper over the cracks if for instance the next presidential candidate is not on the side I think this would be the thing of what's seen the unity of the country quickly this is my last question before we wrap things up you obviously are aware of the fact that the Lagos panel for the entrance on police brutality has presented its report to the governor Babajideh Songolu now that is just Lagos of course this is where soldiers actually shot at protesters and we've seen some of the accepts of that particular reports it's not been made public of course but in due course there have been several demands that have been made key points that that committee has made now the federal government seems to be a bit tight-lipped on this particular issue and of course presidential spokesperson two of them have spoken on this issue earlier on and had one way or the other said that nothing of any sorts there was no bloodshed at the tour gate does this also play into does this play negatively or will it play positively if the government decides to speak on this issue, I mean the federal government will this one way or the other also be a deciding factor for 2023 being that the presidency is of the APC the entrance panel which is out for is a lead room even though government has not denied the authenticity of that the government has actually said for a review committee which is correct not to produce a white paper on all the issues raised in that people the government is right now in relation to the findings of that the finding is so dumb that many people are embarrassed by it you know in the sense that they are used are used are children are complaining about police brutality police are judicial killings of youth in the country only for those to handle trying to disperse the same youth using soldiers who in the first instance are never trained in the apple they are never trained in the apple they are trained to kill so we ended up deploying soldiers you know I don't know what we think soldiers we don't when they we don't we saw so many casualties and then the same police officers are accused the police force are accused of a judicial killing by many of us came back to do a more popular killings according to that if that the police are to do a more popular killings it's quite unfortunate that we could use legitimate targets for to be shot at anyhow and what is so amazing is the fact that it's actually the peaceful protesters that were shot I don't have an issue even the police are trying to contain those who are burning police barracks killing police officers burning TBC burning legusta government buses I don't have an issue with that to arrest those situations at that point in time but arresting those situations does not mean you need to go to where there are peaceful protesters who start dancing in national land thing and then start shooting and then in any case we should not forget for those who argue that the government declare coffee I would say yes the government declare coffee but the coffee was to commence at night the shooting started at 7 so 2 hours before the coffee commence so what I couldn't let it all be is to carry on a certain on the role of the federal government the federal government did not help matters at all we have the information minister I wonder what he will now say to the public I wonder what else a large like Mohammed you say now that many people take it serious he came out openly to say these are reports of mastercars without dead bodies now we have seen that the mastercars have dead bodies and that's it as we made it again the minister for information went as far as asking CNN to do a retraction and apologize for his report on the incident on the killings in Lagos CNN is right so I don't know what else he has to do other than to eat the ungupa he shouldn't have opened his mouth he shouldn't have commented the way he commented without investigation he can wear the minister for information at that point in time I will be sticking clearly to the government line that no a panel has been set up to look at this issue we will know whether people will pay or not when it comes to the impact on 2023 elections yes it will have some impact because many of the youth are very very aggrieved and therefore the government needs to placate them we need to make sure that this kind of situation doesn't occur again we want to say thank you very much for being part of the conversation we appreciate your thoughts alright thank you all for staying with us coming up on PLOS Politics the World Bank blames terrorism for the decline in the economic activities in northern Nigeria we'll take a short break now and we'll be back