 around. I could do that. Has anybody invited him to TFT and I'm like, uh, yeah, right. Yeah, no, that's, that's the way. Yeah. Yeah. Um, Boris is actually in the hour. One of the earlier elders. Yes. Um, uh, we had like a shared project, although I think we are from Vita now, then what? Yeah. I think that sounds like a really good idea. I'm sending him an email right now. Cool. Yeah. I mentioned Peter and Flancy and I, I don't know if Bentley knows him or, or not. Cool. We all, he and I have interacted in several communities, not a lot, but so I know who he is. And I'm on tools for Thought Rocks. The, um, matter most. The goal is to volunteer them to join us. Yeah, exactly. All right. Sounds like, uh, yeah, he's also in Social Cop, which, um, I actually invited someone from Social Cop, uh, I don't know, you know, Johnny Saunders. Uh, if you know him, yeah. No, he's like, uh, uh, doing me a weekly development and in the space as well. Uh, so yeah, uh, I think that Social Cop in general is also like, uh, highly refined. But yes, uh, this is a great idea, Chris. Cool. Y'all keep going while I do this little thing. And, um, right. So we started recording and, uh, I think last time we covered a plan of the year and then went into, um, uh, yeah, the issue of search and like, uh, I guess the commons, like last time, so we called, uh, it was interesting and, um, for today, uh, yeah, we don't have a set agenda, so we would like to start with check-checkings. Just run the table. Okay. I'm going to take it as a yes. So go, uh, Peter Kaminski. See, the problem told works so well. I, I can give a small update on, um, the tools for thinking map project. I went slowly on that name because, uh, we're, we're consolidating names. It's been also named, uh, something else. Um, we're just buttoning up the first version phase, phase one, we're calling it, um, of the website. Um, so that's looking good. I, we should finish it. We thought it would be this today. We didn't quite get there, but, um, it should be probably this week. Nice. Um, we had a lot of fun using massive wiki to do it and ran into various kind of usability and teething problems, um, which was super useful. Are there check-ins? I wrote down our names in an arbitrary order. Oh, fine. So next up will be Ben Lee Davis. Yeah. So, um, I am not, I'm only tangentially in this group, kind of working. So I don't know that any of my check-ins will provide any value. Um, I'm working on kind of the sense-doing project and, um, on my own potential podcast called Evidence Explorers, because when Jerry, um, said he doesn't want the sense-doing to dig into, like, an argument about studies. And I'm like, oh, well that, that's actually where I want to go. And other people are like, oh, it's not really about truth. It's more about communication. Like, no, I'm, I'm trying to get to an objective truth measure. So, um, even though I, anyways, when we're doing all of that, I think I will, um, I think it'll be part of the sense, my, my adventures will be part of that. And that also kind of, uh, comes in, this is kind of like linking data and, you know, bringing information together. Mine's just more on the objective side than the communication side. So, that's what I'm focusing on right now. Cool. Um, so do you have like a, like a page where you keep track of what your focus is or, like, you know, what your projects are about? Like, I haven't, it's at BentleyDavid.com because I haven't been there. Um, that has my major ones. It doesn't follow my daily muse. Um, so yeah, I've been waffling back and forth. So no, there's no place to kind of see what my current brainstorming is except for, you know, one of my last posts on Twitter and mastodon and Facebook, which are, I'm posting the same thing everywhere right now. I probably should do a better job, but I also, I'm really kind of just playing with the ideas and haven't, at some point, hopefully something will stick. Either that or I just have ADD. So we'll see which. Thank you. But the BentleyDavid.com, the beginning there does kind of talk about my overall, um, my main goal is, uh, is more satisfaction for more people. So anyway. The Bentley is philosophy. I forgot. I, their dog was barking in the background a minute ago. So Bentley has a list with one, two, three, and he's not sure what they are, but number four, he's got Firmland. He wrote out profit, took out profit and then put in, you know, happiness. I had been brainstorming on my list of things to kind of mirror some of what Jerry's list has been to figure out what that is. I finally have gotten around to reaching out to Paul Roney and hopefully we'll set something up shortly to start a discussion there, which may dovetail with some of the tools for thought podcast ideas and where that may go, which would be interesting. And I have a now page on my website that I haven't updated in ages, but hopefully when I finish this list, I'll put it there for you, Flancy, and so you'll, you'll have a visible version of it. Nice. And that's before so far. Yes. It's, I don't know how out of date it is. I'm sure there's a timestamp on that page that's ages old and it needs to be updated. And there's a handful of things that I want to play around with, including both massive wiki and fed wiki to start looking at how I might dovetail those two things together, at least play around with them to see. And I need to spin, I need to re-spin up an old media wiki thing that I want to do something with within this space and figure out how that can play. And I'm getting close to cleaning up enough of my notes that I should be able to like throw a link to be part of the aggro shortly. And we'll see what happens. The problem is I had so much personal data, private data mixed with what could be public data and I have to like tease the two apart so that I don't Yeah, I know that's, that's a, I got them back from, I got them back from several like OGs, essentially, not big, you know, as you come later and notes with private first as an approach. Yeah, you need to disentangle. There is some code contributed to actually have conventions for marking pages or even blocks. For example, like in the case of Rome, public or private, but it's early stage. Hey, Samuel. Hello. Welcome. Happy New Year, everyone. Happy New Year. Welcome to 2023. We're doing chickens. Is it my turn? Yes. Okay. Three things in order from play to serious. The first one is, for some reason, I ended up spending a bunch of time yesterday going a little deeper on the big fungus as metaphor. And it's like really rich. And that page lists, and I haven't fleshed out all the, all the different details yet, but that page is basically listing a bunch of the ways in which metaphorically we're busy being hyphae or mycelium or mushrooms, which are the fruiting bodies of mycelium and and so forth and so on. And I'm happy to, you know, offer more details about each of these little bullet points or not, but this, this will get a little bit more filled out. And kind of my goal, I'm doing some YouTube shorts for a different reason. But I think I would love to do some YouTube shorts around each of these little bullets so that they're easy to go through and then create a playlist for, you know, how is how is fungus a good metaphor for humans thinking together? So that's one thing. Then let me see what my other things were. Then my second thing is the podcast and Paul Roney. And I'm talking with him again on Friday. Anyone, anyone who's interested in playing with podcasts around tools for thinking, which won't be called tools for thinking probably, please let us know, jump in. And we're trying to invent or we're trying to describe a pretty flexible format where any where we sort of switch roles, you know, somebody who would normally be an interview subject might be a host of a call and might jump in and say, Hey, I'd like to run a four call series or a six call series on this topic. And sounds great. Go, you know, go crazy. And figured it all out. And then I said some of this on Free Jury's brain on Monday, but the season, the season we just finished, and I just did I had a really nice podcast recording call early yesterday with Doug Rushkoff and Ida Josefina of sane. And it was just lovely. And the topic was why tools for thinking? Like, is it is it her? Is it hopeless? Is this a hopeless quest? And I don't know how I don't know how well we targeted that particular question, but I kept trying to bring us back to it. But it was a really nice conversation. It'll take a while to produce probably a couple of weeks. And then so the second thing is so the so the podcast, we want to get some episodes sort of recorded and started pretty quickly and just sort of fire ready aim kind of kind of style. So anybody who wants to jump in or has a topic you'd like to explore, let us know. And we'll start putting it up and we should have some places to collaborate on it pretty soon. And then the third thing is I'm trying to and this is the more serious thing I'm trying to figure out and this is a sort of an old conversation, but I'm trying to figure out what structure row eight should have and row eight is my small project in the middle of open global mind in the middle of all these things to try to help spark the shared memory, the big fungus, whatever, whatever it gets called in the end. And and so a new alternative showed up recently in Congress, which I hadn't thought about before, which was to create a center at some university or some college. And that I really hadn't thought of that. But there's a whole bunch of really interesting centers out there that do good work like the Berkman Center and MIT Media Lab and all that. And those are large famous well funded many people centers, but a tiny center that's really agile that is maybe connected locally in Portland to one of the universities here could be super cool. And I hadn't thought about that at all. Or or should relate the public benefit corporation and it's a freestanding entity that does some light things and what does that shape like? Or should it be a DAO if those have gone out of fashion already? And if so, and what is the arrangement? How does that work? Or is there some interesting hybrid mix of things that that that relate could be and and some figure this out or a disco? Yeah, and I don't know enough about this. This is disco.coop. Right, this is the cooperative. Yeah, which I which I keep wanting to go look into and play with and haven't tried, but that's also super interesting to me. So I've got to kind of sort some of that stuff out. Terrifying. I like that. Maybe is there a triumphant autonomous organization? Can we do that? That just sounds like the exaggerated version of terrifying. Yeah, good point. Good point. Because usually triumphant has to pass through terrifying on the way like a stage in the race. So that's me for checking. Nice. Next up, Samuel. Hi, hi. I've been working with a lot of wiki projects in the last month. We have a reliable sources project trying to amplify the very mycelial topic related topic specific source evaluation that happens in different wiki projects. The wiki project for video games. Nice example of the genre where they compile a table listing every source that's ever brought up as potentially controversial as a reference in a video game article. And then they'll show you the history of all the times there's been a conversation out reliability and they show you the the high level tag is the outcome of the most recent conversation since there's some assumption of persistence to a duplicating effort, but people will still revisit all the time, right? And sometimes reliability changes. A new publisher comes in a new or even this is an individual writer takes a different become the conspiracy theorist and there are there may be 30 or 40 of these topical lists that are all varying levels of precision and quality. And then there's a global list and they're all hard to they're hard to manipulate. They're not a machine readable. So what our first approach our first step to helping that that group is to create citable version CSVs from the table and to let people who want to edit explicit data set of that of that information and hopefully that'll make it easier to do things like have an overlay. Maybe you don't want the global list of the thousands things that keep coming up everywhere, but you do want games and video games and films and media or something like that are the kinds of groups that contribute to Metacritic. And you should be able to just compile that without making a new list right now you'd have to make a new page, make a new table. So that's a small it's framed as a small project like a four six month project, but the broader idea of making tables on any wiki or really anywhere on the web a one click convertible to a version citable I'd love if anyone knows of other projects you'd like doing those things. There are a bunch of tools to try to make it easy to convert HTML or other tables into a reusable data set, but all the ones that I've seen feel like a product and you know if you stopped your membership and you'd stop having access to whatever that is and really it should just be a small widget. Maybe something that can get embedded into the browser. So I'd love to chat more with anyone about that. And then a few steps removed there is a we've been revitalizing the wiki site project community who loves wiki site and I think this is an old idea as not quite as old as time but as old as wiki data and the idea is to have a database somewhere with one entry for every source that's ever been cited as a reference in any other document. If you have a set of documents it should be you know maybe one or two magnitudes larger than it's probably the same magnitude as the number of documents because a lot of things are cited many times something they've never cited the average document has 10 to 100 sites well not yet like a lot of things don't have sites but the mode is zero and once you exclude those then the average is high. And the whole thing would be would be large right like maybe trillions of rows but the starting with a specific microcosm like Wikipedia and just having because Wikipedia has most of this data already structured the internet archive has a copy of all of the citations from about 60 languages because they back them all up on the way back machine so anyway happy to talk with anyone who's interested in that would love to actually get I think the internet archive is going to try to host a separate standalone wiki base it's just citations I don't know what the status of it is but I know John Udall built some bots that tie big citation databases into hypothesis for this kind of sense making but he has since left hypothesis so I don't know if they're actively I know these bots are running and they're annotating huge amounts of material but I don't know what the overall project is at recently what's he doing now he moved September October to a new tech company that's doing startup something I don't know what the gist of their structure is I haven't looked into it heavily but whatever it is it's you know it's going to be interesting I'm sure I just haven't had the time to delve into it over the holidays John Udall has a free favor to ask of me because he built the first really good history slider that allowed you to quickly slide back and forth between histories of documents uh and I think versions of that got implemented in etherpad and finally media wiki he also recently did a really nice history of email I take it with him query like like it's 1992 nice no it was David Strom sorry and I guess I'll go with the checking and yes I mean last week has been a lot of our work uh because you know there's a lot of uh anguish over the day job because of the mass layoffs for the first time so yeah then I'll uh I'll be out with the team so we're in a large team and we were affected and like I don't know if you know but like in the US people woke up to no no access and like identification in the person and email which is not what you think google's gonna do but exactly I mean what will we will do is an interesting uh exercise in frustration sometimes like in a media corp yeah I mean here on the and that's how I'll have the people affected including like people who have been around for like 60 years for example anyone and over here in Europe the opposite or like just the other side of the coin which is like four to eight weeks we know uh first chunk of us it's gonna go but we don't know who because they need to go through all the uh well thank I mean I think thankfully the hoops we have like set up in uh by you know society or here um to fire people but anyway yeah it's affecting a lot of people and it's interesting to see how somehow like this maybe um triggers like this uh reaction where like you know it becomes clear that the community of people right is different from the corporation to which extent it is different and which I think you know it's part of a life another company and so but and somehow you know maybe uh it just like makes the the the view the self view it is if you define self in this way and that people employees or the line employees of google have matched something closer to what the people outside will probably already like uh a where uh where applying when thinking about google uh you know harder to use it especially the charity or like to renew charity all about some decisions and so on yeah I'm like uh yeah so it has that's been taken out of my uh mental bandwidth I guess also trying to support the team and so on I've been around for 10 years so I'm rather the old school yeah so uh but you know um and I have worked elsewhere but there's so many people you know who are like super young and like a lot lower working with them right uh but very often they are amazing they come you know maybe this is the first job right so they I guess the diversity of experiences is also very interesting to navigate um what's supporting each other and so on anyway so that's on the gloomier side although maybe it can be a catalyst uh in particular you know if you think oh really like a company that fires uh 2000 people including like what thousands of engineers we don't know how many fully trained uh instead of maybe tackling some interesting projects with them I don't know uh which could be the case right I don't know like uh you know uh I don't know we media for example like imagine getting like say 4000 engineers say like oh yeah you can just decide what they do uh to some extent it seems like an opportunity but uh in this case I mean it just says a lot about the vision of the company or like it off I would say so that may be bad or good news depending on of course like it's bad for like people already affected but uh maybe for the commons you know that would be nice are you are there specific people who you think would love to be contributing to the commons so I will um I know a lot of people who were laid off in area 120 they were who was completely guided which I think is public and uh uh they were interested okay full disclosure I sort of was considering going there it happened in 1920 then like COVID happened and I stayed with meat and we will meet like you will know you probably know remember uh because of the pandemic response and some of us interesting and intense and I didn't did am I going and I will have gone maybe with the algorithm as a project in some way I don't know but that didn't happen so that timeline is not accessible anymore apparently which may be further and um so some people there and like in general I have so I actually have to check I would say I'm sort of like taking a I know a little people here over here in Europe but we assume we still don't know here so I guess we will I will know more in a few months including whether the fact that I spent the last two to three years uh making myself redundant for the team maybe affects my yeah so I'm counting on going at this point I also it's just the right thing and I'm fine with it actually if it happens but you know like I still don't know for for others I don't know maybe on my team so the decisions having like quite surprising at times so it's very hard to predict essentially uh but in any case I think it's a maybe good news for the commons that uh uh Google doesn't seem that interested in like actually new projects maybe at this point I don't know so it's like a bit defensive and focus on making money which I guess is not surprising for a corporation but still probably like hints at open space in the future again um putting on that hat you know it sounds um difficult and sort of still hot at the moment um anybody have any thoughts on the broad layoffs across the whole industry I mean there have been many uh and pretty deep no stock feelings one of the good observations I saw uh was somebody somebody you know said I know you have the question why does the company with a lot of cash need to do layoffs um and it was the answer was basically it's to make yourself look good in the short term to you know people who are buying the stock you know or holding the stock so it's it's it's been interesting watching the the ripple of um layoffs happen and knowing that they're not really I mean it and the other thing is it's it's kind of like a convenient time to do you know partial reset you know everybody else is doing it so we can do it and people ask why we're doing it because everybody else is doing it so you know it in some sense it it seems worse than it really is um not that you know if you're on the receiving end of a layoff that it's easy but but it I that just going through that helped me kind of go oh yeah it's not necessarily it could be not necessarily a general economic downturn it's just a convenient kind of glitch and artifact of you know the way that we capitalize big corporations completely um Microsoft got rid of a bunch of groups that I thought were fruitless anyway sort of in the you know headset stuff and whatever and it's like okay good sort of from my perspective good riddance um and like you know lightning their their overhead so I don't know yeah I guess in some case internally I Google what has happened I think it's like I guess it was still this really like uh by inertia mostly like this uh exceptionalist uh take right that's in like maybe like Google I actually I'll tell you what I thought I thought layoffs were were always going to come to Google because a huge corporation that is over time would have more for money uh but I had my bets on 20 to the 4 I see like Google like distance itself and I say like okay we are not doing whatever else is doing uh and the company did that for one month officially it's underperforming uh yeah it's like Peter said I think this is the the case in interpretation it's just like this low so little external costs in particular in perception even though there are others doing it and like the stock gets a bump so essentially it's capitalism making the calls completely which just makes it obvious how it was already but internally there's a lot of I would call it cognitive dissonance because like the line the line but it's just wouldn't do this right most of us and I guess this is obvious in any corporation that this is connect but internally there's still this discourse that somehow that is not the case for Google you should and at this point it's just like uh I guess that's just gone I did not even the pretension you know so it's interesting to see it happen any other takes on this topic otherwise let's turn ourselves back toward fellowshipy topics Chris go ahead well I was gonna say I'm hopefully it opens up space for more creativity with people who generally had high paying jobs and can probably afford to do interesting things so it's kind of like the tech bubble in 2001 and then there was a lot of interesting stuff that came out of that after the fact completely I hear a lot of stories in the broader financial press hey we all bulked up so much during the pandemic for all these things but I don't see a direct correlation between that story and big projects that are being killed off that I don't think bulked up because there was pandemic desire for those things which seems weird the one nice thing I don't seem to have been and maybe it's a predictor of the the layoffs a lot of corporations say oh come work for us and be part of our big happy family and the big happy family only lasts in so long as you're giving to them as the family and the family never seems to give back to you only a family like that and it drives me bonkers that corporations do that yeah going back to the commons or I produce for the for I mean within this group or I listen to this group I wonder if there's something we could do to like connect people who are laid off in these uh in these opportunities with the you know most pro-social projects in the knowledge space for example or or whatever I mean I know if there's any potential there to like uh maybe uh you know make it more likely that for example like a lot of the people like starts startups if you want the scheme in a way that is you know good for the for the internet for example or just joining some other network another big big company yeah I don't know I don't know if there's a thriving place where there's like a jobs board for you know entrepreneurs in these spaces I don't know where where they'd be looking interesting idea should be somewhere um let me tell my David Christian story real fast because it sort of takes us back into the commons and stuff like that a little bit so I got to meet him once and he was doing a presentation to like 20 people and then I walked up afterward and David Christian is the big history project guy and he got a lot of money from Bill Gates to go build a beautiful um highly produced um media artifact around history and sort of one of the conclusions I got from the from the program was it was hard for me to walk away not thinking well why trouble yourself with all these little uh little things over time like Trumpism or colonialism when in the long run over big history uh other sorts of other scale things are going to be larger and take over and I'm like I just reject that that attitude so so I walked up and I started chatting with him I was like well how would I use this beautiful set of media that you've um created to tell a story I'd like to tell so for example how would somebody um talk about uh decolonization using any of the media in your project and then he was like you know my historian friends are really kind of mad at me and he proceeded to explain how people had been asking him for ways to hook in and use the media and annotate it or comment on it or whatever and he was just not into that this was basically a big copy table book um highly produced with a particular point of view and I'm I'm probably over interpreting what he said but that was entirely the feeling I had and I'm like ah crap and you know he's absorbed a whole bunch of money into producing something that's very pretty and very shiny but but not the kind of artifact that I think we're looking to build around or incorporate or deconstruct or something the sad part too is they the ostensible goal of having done it was he has and the the simple praise is he has refrained history and made it a much more interdisciplinary and collaborative thing and broadly they were trying I I think Bill Gates' point was let's take this idea and try and replicate it especially in the high schools so that there are materials teachers can use to teach from um and they never produced a textbook out of it but if you could take bits and pieces of his media and they were open educational resources with creative commons license that's reasonable enough you could mix and remix all kinds of textbooks out of all of this stuff they've got and also at the same time make it more likely that individual teachers who are experts in small sub areas then collectively push that material back up and it kills me that one of the big chunks of you know there I think there were eight big pieces to his bigger project and one of them is essentially collective memory and collaboration and for them to have missed that as just a driving factor behind the whole project kind of kills me that he would say that and take that perspective thank you but it is an interesting reframing of both the humanities and the social sciences with the harder sciences that kind of helps especially younger high school students see why does history matter while at the same time for the people who are in the social sciences why do the hard sciences matter at the same time so it was a and it's an interesting way to bring together the the two cultures so to speak I feel like we should be starting a third culture which is why does why does automation matter say more well automation allows for step functions in how people allocate time how they think how they work together all kinds of things and because we don't have a notion of that as it's as a discipline at the scale of today science humanities every time it comes up people in the science that are like this is cool we should think about this as a tool or this is this is terrible because the initial automated versions are less precise along some scientific methods right so you should you should definitely go back to the non-automated engineering because automated engineering is always going to cause trouble real engineers know that and people in the humanities say oh automation is going to cause all these social problems and power dynamics problems and you know honestly these are just parameters of us and most of those takes are not that and they're on a like a generational time scale you go to 10 15 years in the future none of those takes are in fact are relevant and it's a very different thing happening and it would be much more interesting to have the flow of a nice conversation about now that we have electricity maybe we should be thinking what it means to have universal electrification and we could have had global electrification grids sorted in the 30s and now we don't have it with broadband and we're not going to have it with ml models for speeding up things other than mathematics and that's silly so fun it seems very relevant to the things we talked about right history has a way of hijacking ideally potentially transformative things and locking them into some dysfunctional but profit-making thing this is this is critique of capitalism sort of and we haven't sorted our way out to alternate forms very elegantly like a couple of groups have figured out alternate forms like the mandra going cooperatives in northern Spain for example maybe and a lot of people are trying to explore that territory and not that I can tell getting that much traction I mean the question I put on the table earlier what organizational structure should relate have I and I don't mean to have more than me and a few other people in relate but that's the same question and it's like what is the platform one of the principles and how does that all clue together definitely and I guess you know well I guess the the the hot topic here is like you know I guess the copyright like aspect what about nice copyright as it relates to training of large machine learning models no which seems to be like hitting up and again I keep wondering if you know like the commons is like you know like essentially defining like a commons that people can contribute to to like all team to like actually contributing to machine learning models and removing the benefits from the models as they are exploited with like like just bootstrapping that relationship as two way instead of like one way like it is now by default whether that's key maybe so just off topic I was going to pick up a little bit on what you were proposing here and say how could someone create a really interesting thread to explore the idealized path that answers your question and enact it play it out do things with it and that could easily be a trope in the podcast and back to the podcast I forgot to mention it probably won't be called tools for thinking because that's two tools oriented a topic it'll probably be called hyper talk which for people inside technology is homage to the language from hypercard but most most muggles don't know that so hypercard is also a friendly hyper connected conversational space and that's kind of the the tone we want to strike so that's that's probably the umbrella term but how might we explore that that's a good question I'd love to do explore that I mean that that feels very much on my quest I have a proposal of course excellent we should we should build an agura together no of course but that that is not this one just assume that's always my proposal in the background it's fine okay more concretely so um what about like exploring you know possible like podcast episodes as a as a as a wiki dialogue essentially so you know so we don't need to do it sequentially and actually given our different pieces of processing and so on so maybe that could be nice and then it's like uh it's I was a little bit precise you know it could be an easier way to also do it meta no use the tools for thinking that we may actually or use hyper graph to have a hyper talk I would love that and I'd love to explore what that means and uh let's have that conversation that sounds great I think if we think quickly and work quickly this thing is juicier and more interesting and and better and Pete I think that means a lot of things are in and around and for massive wiki and and sort of the all those ways of building documents to collaborate and Sam just uh an open source table is something I would love to have I try to make tables in obsidian and it's pathetic it's just ugly because anytime you're trying to do a table in markdown it's like no no no I'm not I'm not doing that so how to embed a lovely open table is a tiny piece of the puzzle here cool wait just embed a google spreadsheet that's one way and and the the top line can be we're always looking for a better implementations of the features you find in this in bed and this and then we have a we have a bounty like add to the bounty so there's a reason I circled back to google sites after trying to love wordpress for many many years and that was I could give within an hour of an inspiration I could buy a domain on google domains stand it up on google sites have the domain linked to it professionally looking so that it masks properly build a website that would embed any google app doc map or whatever and and like show people the thing and it would have propagated already within about an hour or two hours and and it was just so easy just so simple and now like I want the same exact superpowers in open source tools in the fediverse or the indie verse or uh or the massive first oh p have you bought the massive verse I think you might have also the massive and I think just after that comes the massive cinematic universe that's true too the new MCU the real MCU unfortunately someone is doing a massive verse really yeah it's sad it sounds too massive okay let's forget it um well so I I would I would suggest that the first topic of discussion for this group which of this uh idea of flanceans or however we pursue it maybe something that could be mentioned in a podcast would be naming to just throwing out the idea that there's something um parallel and comparable in ways to science and humanities that gets shoehorned into them that would be worth uh naming and uh investing attention into and to pull out examples from the recent past good like well definitely everyone will think of examples in the present and then it's it gets very emotional but if we can find them in the last in the last 20 years though great oh that's interesting yeah I mean if I have to edit a table in a wiki I do use visual editor in media wiki because they got table editing to work and you can the things you're editing can be sortable tables so as soon as you save them you can sort them that's that's like the minimal subset of uh spreadsheet that I want but you can't embed them anywhere else this is also one of the things that notion does nicely yes notion and air table do it well but I'd absolutely draw the line sorry they I mean they both are are very open about the fact that if you ever stop paying them that your stuff goes away you're not getting permalinks anything um you're paying them for a temporary service okay so that's not the archive yep boy I had one other off topic please stop on on this line I would love to circle back I'd love to have a a session about this maybe we can plant and maybe we can all try to draft a premise for a for a conversation that could be a that could be a cast definitely and I I mean I I think we we will draw people's attention by saying um the uh the possibilities opened up by generative multimodal models you know tech research images music video you name it are very interesting and have almost nothing to do with the narratives of people and intrinsically project them on to people like is this a copyright question is this a labor question is an unemployment question no it's not any of those things it is like it is a multiplicative synthesis question and we should be turning to past discussions this and so I think we can probably talk about how to mine past interesting research about this that was probably tagged by an existing field and so it'll show up in journals the range of fields and we can ask people look in your field and see how people have talked about this in the past that doesn't fall into one of those eddies and maybe and collect them and see what's interesting among them um that'd be a lot of fun and a much much smaller scale I would I would I invite interest in starting an awesome foundation chapter we've talked a little bit about this I think Nancy talked about this in the past I got a couple of Igorans interested last year but now I really want to do it and I was reminded that we need this because again this year is every year across the wiki verse in the media land people have a an annual wish list most of this is totally open-ended people have stopped suggesting any wishes that they don't think the people hosting the wishathon will implement so it's hosted by a team that has like three or four staff and the foundation just says okay we'll take some of the top you know five or ten things and we'll try to actually implement them but the interesting thing that comes out of is actually this list that anyone can work on a bunch of other people work on the output to the list but it's gotten a little bit weird because there isn't a group other than these staff members who do anything about them it would be fun to have a standard you know awesome knowledge thing like take the most interesting ideas or the most interesting prototypes give them a few hundred bucks and an award every you know once a month or once a week um if you're interested in this love to discuss we need to be limited to media at all I like the idea of hosting it on Wikipedia just because there's an interesting history of telling this over the years um what does it take to stand up a chapter so if we wanted to be a literally an awesome foundation chapter you just there's a form you fill out and um you uh you declare your interest in giving out at least one award a month and among the members of the group uh we should be able to come up with I mean the the norm the idea of the initial foundation was if ten trustees per chapter they all chip in a hundred dollars a month they give out a thousand dollar award people have tried all kinds of variations that also count you can give out smaller awards you can give out awards every week there are some people who like give out lots of small awards it's basically funded by one person and the trustees are the people who vote whatever uh the the important idea is it's a it should be a relatively small amount of money proportional to salary in the region and it should be joyful and you know zero strings attached some of them reward things that have already been done to say do more of it some of them give people funds to go build an inflatable no buff man wait that's I like the idea a lot I also like the the joyful part of it I had a nice conversation catching up with uh kind of an education entrepreneur earlier today and brought up the topic of serious fun which is one of my favorite phrases in learning it's like kids love hard fun they want they want to chew on stuff that's sort of like difficult Chris you're muted I don't know if you were talking about okay there's a local and so so adults also need serious fun and we need to we need to loot enjoyment back into work I have a riff I've done a couple times where I take a bend diagram and I'm like why did we separate work play and learning why are those why are those separated in our life spans and in our week spans like they should all be bundled together and if you go talk to the sun tribe folk of the the bushmen of Africa uh that when they go on a hunt or a forge they're busy playing and learning and singing and it's all together well play and learning are known to be disruptive so I guess I think we should be surprised at the system says like no you need to move on now just work until the end yeah crazy what's one one of my favorite things about kind of the indie web community is a thing is you can throw out a crazy idea or a wish of oh I wish my website could do this and I do it reasonably frequently and there are technical things I could never come up with myself but there are people in those chat rooms who are bored and we'll think about that and say yeah I want to do that I wish my site could do that but they have the technical capability of making it happen usually and then abstracting it into some little module of here's a chunk of code that will then make your site do that too that's awesome I didn't know about that oddly I think they even have a pot of money and then open collective they don't use it like they ought to that's funny what's the collective what's the name of the collective um that's probably indie web camp I think I could I'll look it up and drop you a link I think case was telling me about this yeah I mean I think somebody has made them a massive donation a few years back and they just need to get together as a group to decide what to do with it I'm gonna put it many years ago before I had met Pete Kaminski I was on the well and there was a lovely forum on the well called experts on the well and it was completely cool to watch how like random questions would get thrown into that little that forum and then people were watching and people would just jump in from the periphery and it was beautiful like all these deep answers from from knowledgeable people because they were just watching the same spot the tough part is to tumble a community like that together in the first place to make it safe and interesting and fun along the way to kind of encourage that yeah we had explored precisely where is man who we discussed earlier the well the whole approach of boundaries I guess which of course like has this connotation of I guess mercenaries which may be narrative so maybe we want to raise it but you know like taking on the level of just like a device to connect you know provide the resources and of work or time or or play it seems fine and I guess it goes back to the connectivity aspect of what we're trying to do no connecting people on projects and so on and like I don't know maybe I think maybe we discuss also similar some point like the idea of like connecting like different platforms that offer like boundaries for example are creating across you know communities as well for example like this thing you mentioned Chris that this this just the fact that now we know that in the web has such a such a thing going on and we can commute as well right