 Yaata niqashan genresu kwaingisha niqashana Maibe haiga, maa jatika kwaigisha yu altula kutia wajakia naniwa tawakia... Naamaaestikumana kwaingisha Yatika kwaingisha yu altula kutia, yukuli wa'u wajakia naniwa, We have some proposals changed to the cap 222 of the 222 of the arts and play, and so to begin with I need to know Peter Shidiayi Bill Nininimi wa Sumwasana because you people have been making a lot of noise. Ya, I think one of the things that actually we would like to have very clear to every individual is that freedom of expression is enshrined in the 2010 constitution and being enshrined in the 2010 constitution, it then means that every individual is supposed to be free to express themselves and to associate with any person. And these freedoms also come because I'll end up talking about it even more deeply. They come also with artistic and creativity freedoms. I am from the background of theatre into film and right now I represent the creative economy working group which is a group of 18 creative associations in Kenya which comes to seek policy changes in the spaces where we feel totally aggrieved. So how does this cap 222 aggrievous? It aggrives me from the time when I was in theatre and I remember that in the year there about 20, 20, 22, 20, not 22, in fact 206 or thereabouts there was a lot of you and cry around the issue of the cap 222 because then in those years you used to go to Nyaya house and you had to give a script to some sense, I just recall the censorship board and this censorship board would look at the script and decide whether it is going to get on stage or not. And in those years we used to act plays such as an enemy of the people and if you went with that kind of a play to Nyaya house you would be chaste. When I am going to talk about who is the enemy because that regime do not want anything to do with enemies although there are very many enemies in that time. So first forward as they try to continue burning I remember those years when Steve Monesi went to court and that stage plays act was actually pushed aside and we were able to continue performing those plays the fate of a cockroach enemy of the people and all the place you wanted to perform. Right now with the KFCB which is supposed to be the Kenya Film Classification Board. The C is for classification but KFCB has taken it upon themselves to be censoring films. I am now in film, I moved from theatre to film so they come and censor. The work of KFCB is supposed to be classified say this film is supposed to be worked by people between the age of this to this. This film will be worked by adults but when they come to burn and censor films which do not infringe the freedom of expression as enshrined in the constitution and we shall go into the explanation if you want to. Then it becomes an infringement to us because I as a person who works in film we found filmmakers and we found filmmakers to do what to go into independent filmmaking. Their creativity is supposed to be totally independent not tampered with we should not come and start telling me change this script at the end let it look like this the way some people at KFCB would like to do things. The creative freedoms are enshrined in the constitution and that's why we say KFCB should remain on its lane or it should be disbanded. It should classify. All right hold on that thought. Now Ray that's the problem they feel they are being infringed by the KFCB. And considering content generation and film production there are some things that are done in this country and we have an agency or a group of people who control what we view on our mainstream media or even social media. Do you think the allegations of the problem they feel they are pressed by the KFCB? Are they true? Yes thank you for that question. First of all the current law we are using cap 222 was the guidelines are colouring the redix. They have been there since 1962. So meaning that during the colonial period in order to calm down dissent the colonists decided to come up with this law so that playmakers people like Ngugiwa Thiongo could not easily and other artists could not easily express themselves through plays. That were banned during that time to ensure that any dissent was calmed down under status quo remand. Now with the current law that we have cap 222 and its guidelines they tend to infringe and curtail the right to freedom of expression as provided in article 33 of the constitution of Kenya. If you look at article 33 of the constitution it provides for freedom of expression which extends up to freedom of academic work and scientific innovation. But now for any law for there to be a law that tends to limit the freedom of expression that law must be provided for. It must be provided for. It must be necessary in an open and just society. But in the current situation the way KFCB and the board, the KFCB board, the regulations and the act they've curtailed, they've limited freedom of expression. The law in itself is a cake, is a colonial relic and even a bretor in itself does not use such law. They've moved away from it. When they find that a movie or something is a bit controversial the best they can do is to rate it. They can rate it for the adults, for the children but here the highest kind of burning, the highest kind of rating in Kenya is burning a movie. I can't give you for example. The celebrated movie called Rafiki is banned in Kenya due to this a cake close that we have. But when you go outside, you go to the East African state, you go outside in Africa, you go to Europe, you go to the Americas, you go to whatever part of the world. You find that it's a movie that is celebrated, the director is celebrated. So it's only in Kenya that we find such kind of curtailment. In your own view do you think it's a good thing if you are being protected either morally or something? Isn't it a good thing? The creative industry like any other industry in Kenya has to be regulated and they don't fear to be regulated. But now it comes when there is discrimination in this kind of regulation. So instead of burning a movie or burning a play or burning something that you feel that it's not good for public consumption. There are other ways in which you can try to limit the viewership and it's for the consumers to decide whether they want to watch it or not. I want to weigh in a bit. Before you respond to that, I'll give you an opportunity to respond to that and even so, I have an article here that was written in 2025 of October 2016. It was on the review of the film and stage plays out of 222 and now the representatives drawn from the creative industry of the Kenya Film Classification Board are on this 25th of October research to continue engaging on the review of the film and stage play out of 222. At the time the parties also agreed unanimously to end the actimony that has pervaded the initiative to review the act which aims to make it consistent with the constitution to address new industry demands in the interest of creative industry. He has spoken of the current 222s from Kitambo. Now leaving today, I agree that time, four years down the line, what happened as you respond to what you're saying. Well, first of all you talked about people being protected under the moral police and the like. But I want to say, as an individual, I love the law and I like to keep the law. And I would like to say here and clearly that in my entire life I've never been in any criminal act, I've never been taken to court for anything when it comes to infringing the law and yet I've been an artist through and through. The way to protect the citizenry from anything is also based on the constitution. And the constitution clearly says that the artistic and creative freedoms that you have, whether you're talking about freedom expression as a whole, shall not include freedom for propaganda, for war, or hate speech, or incitement to violence, or in the end should not be able to harm or criminalize somebody. And all criminal activities are actually there in the Pino Code. And therefore when it comes to again, because you talked about it on the film Rafiki, it would be good to be told because I know who I am and people know what they do and what they believe in. But I would like to be told legally because then we talk legal staff. Where does Rafiki infringe as per the constitution? In what section of the constitution, especially on Antico 33, does that film harm anybody? Does it harm? Does it cause anything to do with the violence? Has it brought in hate speech? Has it gone into any kind of propaganda that will harm anybody? I would like to know that. But at the same time, the protections are also there. As an example, why would a person want to believe that by watching a film, as an example, where there is a vampire which is sucking people's blood, that I will become a vampire? That if I watch a film where there is a lot of bombing and fighting, I will end up becoming an al-Qaeda or an al-Shabaab because I watched a film. This film was given a respite in 2018 for a window of one week to be watched so that it can go into Oscars. We would like to know as an example. So within that window, what did KCB come to most likely prove to people that you see after they watched all of Kenya became and they are now like that and that's why you don't want this kind of film. What we mean is simply I am a creative. Let me be free to imagine other worlds. Let me be free to create what is there and what I imagine even if it is into the apocalyptic world and show it to the world so that we can be able to share creatively. But after I have created that, you can come and prove to me that this can infringe therefore we let it be watched by people over 18 or we won't allow kids below this age to watch it because of. But censorship and burning, that's too harsh because when you look at the amount of money that goes into filmmaking and the filmmakers trying to recoup and just make their own back and you burn it can be dangerous. All right. You have mentioned about the creativeness and I know when you want to imagine another world of what I know from the KCB for some time now they have been trying to find the kind of the content Kenyan people are coming up with especially in the music industry. We have seen the kind of content they want and you see for us even we are a mainstream media. If you want to play certain music we have those codes the kind of music we can't play. The same thing is happening even to the film. Now what makes it wrong if KCB has taken it upon themselves to control the kind of content to try to have a morally upright society in terms of what we view either on social media or even on mainstream media. What makes it wrong is simple that KCB plays double standards because KCB is the same KCB which will allow you to watch any kind of content that is coming from Europe which has those scenes that are there in Rafiki but it won't allow you to watch a film like Rafiki because it feels like we cannot be able to decipher and tell ourselves what is right or wrong or which direction we want to go or not to go. Now when it comes to the question we even asked earlier because I want to also still reply to the question there were some things that were needed to be turned around in the KAP222 and that's why the discussion was going on. Simple things like this that when you take a script to KFCB they have the sole discretion to decide whether the film should be short or not sole discretion while the constitution says there is freedom of artistic creativity already that becomes an infringement because when you give yourself the sole discretion without saying that we shall go by the constitution then that already for me is an infringement in itself. Two, there are things in that act that were a cake and were supposed to be used by the colonizer to continue humming the native in the 60s. So as an example you are on a film set we get on films I have first added for a long time on film sets so you decide that because Ray was supposed to enter from left into the bedroom and don't have a bedroom here what we will do is let him enter from right and come into the living room as an example just as an example that is a change as per KFCB that can actually make you not continue shooting they have and they are supposed to have a policeman on the set with you watching what you do and the policeman can decide meba delisha kwaivo haita ndelaia and this become very crazy things because they are guidelines, they are simple things it sounds like a story from utopia or something so what we are asking is can we be systematic can we remove those K-claws and just come up with something that is quite simple and quite understood which is in line with the constitution and when we print the constitution I would say yes please let the constitution prevail and if a film is supposed to be banned for the reasons why the constitution is laid down I would tell anybody if you are a filmmaker look the constitution is quite clear this would be banned because of these infringements but just banning for the sake of your discretion hello now Ray I have the proposal here the changes proposed by the bill appear to be catered toward expanding the scope of the board's mandate in relation to the regulation of advertising and online content now they are moving from the accord mandate coming to the film industry yet we do not have another board in this country that controls such is it wrong for them to try to get into having bigger share of controlling content in this country? thank you for that question first of all the moral fabric of the Kenyan society is not so weak that it can be shaken by the content either that the artists are trying to disseminate to people or whatever is online in the movie 12 Years Afraid 12 Years Afraid we do not have an agreement for it and Oscar yes yes sorry and Oscar for it she depicts slavery in that movie slavery is something that is banned in Kenya under the constitution slavery and servitude but does it make her or does she promote slavery that is not the case and I would like to reiterate this that the creative industry doesn't fear regulation it's a good thing every industry but KCB what it has to do it is just to provide guidelines on how, where and how that information is supposed to be decimated if you watch most movies whether it's abroad or if you look at most established societies you look at India you look at Nigeria you look at UK you look at Canada you look at South Africa they regulate their movies in a way that it doesn't infringe or curtail artistic creativity if they consider a movie is not suitable for a particular class of people or for a particular age the best they can do is to provide the parental guidelines this movie is not for 18 15 whatever we have seen those classifications even on movies from abroad but also do you think as a society we are at a point where we truly can agree or truly can adhere to the guidelines given because you are calling for the KFCB to give guidelines yes they will give but do we have that moral discipline to do that for example we have this kind of music I will give an example with a like a gangiton for quite some while their music are getting banned because of the wording they are using others we have seen the movies the video they shoot it is not consumable to certain group of people because if I use a Matatu I will see these kind of videos now do you think KFCB is making the creative industry to suffer in terms of trying to control the content they create yes first of all the constitution of Kenya is the supreme law so any law that tends to go against it is just null and void if a constitution provides for under article 331 that artistic creativity must be there and under 332 it can only be limited it can only be limited whereby if it propagates and such other stuff yes now if either of the content that is being decimated does not in any way go against article 332 of the constitution then it will be bad for KFCB to arbitrarily go against the constitution through their regulations through their guidelines in fact the guidelines under KFCB the Kenya Film Classification Guidelines of 2012 they have not been gazeted and they lack any statutory undertones in them in the petition that we took to the High Court petition 331 and creative economy versus KFCB the court found out that the KFCB guidelines of 2012 they are not law they have not been gazeted but the court went ahead and gave them a one year leeway to ensure that they come in tandem or they are there to the constitutional provisions so as we speak right now those guidelines they provide for such kind of limitation such kind of limitation they are unconstitutional the only thing that the judge failed to do was to to just make a judgment that they are unconstitutional but he agreed they are not laws Peter being in the creative industry knowing our country who we are and what we do do you agree with the kind of content that we generate from music to film to a large extent I would like to leave it to the creators let me say this I am Christian and being Christian there are things I will not most likely agree with when it comes to the Hindu religion or the Buddhist religion or even maybe Islam maybe but the freedom of religion makes me understand that there has to be tolerance I have got to let them take their path as I take my path and because of that we coexist and that's the same thing when it comes to artists the artists should find out for themselves if they are constitutionally aligned or not if they do something that's not aligned to the constitution and is banned on the grounds of the constitution I am totally with the person who bans that but when the burning is only happening because somebody is thinking about their own moral stance then becomes different and I would like to say this artists can self-regulate filmmakers can self-regulate filmmakers know and understand that we can do this film and we can follow our danga or we can follow whoever and come with a story and show it to people and once it gets to being shown it is the classifier to say we will not allow this to be worked by this age group but I don't think there is a grave issue in the films that come or even the music that will say ban King Kaka's song it was a jingani yeah, it was a jingani it cost a lot of and you could see there was actually an age where it would very easily have been banned if only King Kaka had not been King Kaka but I think because he was strong enough and was brave enough and the musicians came around and said that music tell us what is wrong with it show us and I want to believe that even the KFCB realized or agreed that there was really no infringement in King Kaka's song I'll say something I will not be in any space where music is advocating for people to rape others advocating for people to kill each other because it is totally a constitution it's there in the constitution if you bring hate speech that is unconstitutional once that is based on that I'll tell you for sure I am with you 100% but you see the provision of the cup to so far protect the society from crime and what have you but the bit of morality the kind of music you see and what you just give an example we will see or we watch movies from abroad which has those scenes and now coming from our own people from where you sit would you be comfortable watching some film have you actually have you watched some film in Kenyan content and you like I wish my kids were not here or I wish I was alone you know something like I know for sure pornography is banned in Kenya and one person who does not adhere to those lines of let's watch pornography I'm not in that kind of world I understand that is me you understand if somebody else loves to watch pornography in their own comfort of their bedrooms that's not my problem but now if that was to appear on national TV I'll complain but if a person chooses that they are going to consume pornography in their own house how am I supposed to how does it affect me if it does not affect me I just tell the person well that's not for me if it's for you that's okay but I know for sure that what is good for somebody else can be bad for another once food is another's poison I know for sure so let's not make it poison for everybody because it's supposed to be somebody's food and I'm talking about pornography at the time I'm talking about creativity when it comes to creative license let it not be a one person's idea that this film should end in this manner for it to be consumed the creator is the one who decides how the film should end there are the ones who know what they want to say so let them be the ones who decide how it will start and how it will end yours should be it will be watched by these people it will be classified in this manner or if it is banned it is banned for these grounds you just mentioned about licensing and I know I have been limited in the grievances that you have you have the petition that you have you have the licenses how these people are making it hard for you other than the licensing what else is elinio other than licensing of the films the worst is banning films because I'll say it again KFCB stands for Kenya Film Classification Board it is not Kenya film censorship or banning board so the B is not for censorship and banning it's supposed to be for classification board so when they come and censor and they ban we feel agribed because I know how expensive it is to just have a film rolling and starting to the end edited and finished it costs millions of shillings the creative license belongs to the creator the independence belongs to the creator the IEP the IEP intellectual property right belongs to the creator let the creator create let each other space work on its own Kenya Film Commission has its mandate Kenya Film Classification Board has its mandate the artist and the creator have their mandate can everybody remain on their lane and once the product is finished because then we can come and say here to Taki here to Nataki after the things have come to the market let the people be the ones to decide he this mushroom you want to give us but don't decide for people even before it's a kill or something that it will just going to kill whether you like it or not if you watch it if you watch Rocky you will become ultimately all of us become bokas even girls if you watch a vampire movie you start sucking people's blood and the like if you watch a film that is on I don't know what to say but just go for any moral fabric you end up becoming completely what you watch we have better muscles up here alright conclude us for us Ray what are you looking forward to and do you think it opens now in 331 Wanurikawi creative economy versus KFCB we did impune some sections of cup 2 to 2 loss of Kenya now one of the problems that we had was the issue about the minister the minister having power to revoke alliances or put any other condition with regard to the production of the movie and under article 22 of the constitution of Kenya when you feel that your rights are being infringed or any person rights are being infringed you have the right to go to court specifically the high court constitution on human rights division to claim that your rights are being infringed upon so I do believe that I do believe that there are better ways in which we can regulate the creative industry and it's time that we repeal the entire cup 2 to 2 and come up with a law that will help the creative economy to grow because now it's really stagnated due to such kind of law from the producer of Rafiki she can tell you what law she has gone through of having to produce that movie and not being able to recupe the money from and even when the conservatory orders were issued in 2018 with regards to the Rafiki movie to be watched for is to be submitted because the tickets were sold out during that 7 day period the tickets were sold out and people and Kenyans went and to anybody who watched Rafiki he or she can tell you it's not what the KFCB is purporting to be here to intervene and ban the movie that's not the case Alright Peter, yes or no question the current generation we have are they acting better compared to your times Well it cannot be a yes or no question because you asked a question that needs an answer because you see at the end of the day for me I would say that we are living in different times we are living in very different times and at times it's good to just understand because of the spaces being as liberal as they are the internet being what it is and people consuming the world has become a literal global village you can watch something right now that's happening in the America right this particular moment on online what Trump is doing people can see it straight on so straight on when people want to share stuff whether it's good or bad online they share it so morally there are some things which are not right but I would like to still say this it's a parental issue it's a school issue it is not a KFCB issue it should be parents to take I am a parent I should take charge and make sure that my kids are growing up morally upright and then at the end of the day I want to still leave it to the space of let religion deal with its bit let schools deal with their bit let creatives deal with their bit let the board deal with their bit because all of us can coexist and we can make this society better and let me tell you freer societies which deal with fundamental human rights to freedoms democratically are progressive compared to those that infringe on those rights that's my closing thank you so much thank you so much gentlemen for coming and back home thank you so much for keeping us company we have been my guests Peter Modamba is an actor I assume you have seen him on your screens Ray O'danga a lawyer a trustee your petition goes through or something better comes from this and your grievances are heard by the government because I'm sure at the end of the day they will have to decide especially the parliament