 Hello everyone and welcome to the 2.30pm session in the content and community track. As a reminder to our in-world and web audience, you can view the full conference schedule at conferenceopensimulator.org and tweet your questions or comments to atopensimcc with the hashtag OSCC14. This hour we are happy to introduce a terrific session called gamification utilizing quest-based learning and reward systems. Our speaker for the session is Bill Jobes. Bill is the creator of the honor reward system, a flexible tool for use in many venues including education and gaming. He has a degree in math and computer science and over 25 years of programming experience. He has invested more than 15 years working with artificial intelligence and gamification delivering successful solutions. Welcome all, let's begin the session. Thank you Ruby for that wonderful introduction. This is just outstanding. I'm so excited to be here today and work with everyone. This is the gamification quest-based learning and reward system talk at 2.30pm. I hope everyone can hear me okay. Every session I've been in I've asked the question, can you hear me in the back? I always think that that's kind of funny because where's the back? We're broadcasting this all over the world so again it's exciting to be here and welcome to everyone. Before I start I just want to talk a little bit more about my background and what brought me here today. As Ruby said I've been a software developer for a long time over 25 years. My graduate work was studying artificial intelligence and automata theory. And about seven years ago or eight years ago I created the honor system and that is a quest-based learning tool, achievement system, reward system that's been used in Second Life and many other venues. And I've been very fortunate. There have been 20 million actions across the honor system trading, gathering, questing, and thousands of avatars have used it. Every time I look at those numbers I'm always stunned and it's an honor to have created that tool. I just want to take a moment in the beginning because I know we're near the end of the conference and these sessions and I just want to say thank you to everyone that has made this possible. Thank you to UC Irvine for sponsoring the servers. Thank you Ruby for being a moderator Starry, the greeter, emo the great streaming that's going on. I certainly you know this couldn't happen without all of you and of course all of the people that have used the honor engine that brought me here today and it's exciting and I really want to take a moment and thank each and every one of them. But I guess we should get into the topic which is about gamification and that's what I'm here to talk about today. And so I'll give you the definition that we find in the dictionary of gamification and then we'll talk a little bit about what that means and how we're going to use it here. So gamification is the application of typical gaming point scoring competition with others rules of play when it is applied to other areas of activity. These other areas are typically marketing and or education. And that's the very core definition of what gamification is lots of people have I've heard over the last few days have some have been very positive of gamification others have been a little shy of gamification. And we'll talk a little bit about that mechanic of those principles as we move forward. So I want to talk a little bit about the parts that make up gamification. I've kind of mentioned them. This applied game mechanics right gamification has game mechanics. The other part of gamification it has game theory rules and principles. But what we gain out of that is this ability to engage people to motivate people and to help them achieve goals. As I mentioned prior when I talk in real life I move around. I like to engage people. I like to walk up to people. I walk down the aisle and I speak in the virtual world. It's certainly very interesting giving this presentation. And so we're going to talk about these concepts and the benefits of gamification as we move forward and how we can achieve this engagement and this motivation and these goals. So again these benefits. Engagement. How exciting is engagement. When people are engaged they want to learn. When people are engaged they're happy. When people are engaged they're motivated. Just the nature of things people want to see what's next. That's a benefit of gamification. Another benefit of gamification is a trust building exercise. And as we start to talk about these benefits more in depth as we move forward I want you to think about the people in your lives that you trust. The people in lives that you do business with. The people that you've learned the most from. You probably trusted them. And so we'll talk a lot about what builds a good trust relationship between people and how we move forward. The third benefit of gamification and quest based learning of course is choice. Traditional learning as we'll see in the future is very linear. Quest based learning is very circular. There isn't a defined path. And that's when we'll start to talk about goals. So what I'd like to do is break each one of these down and talk a little bit about what I mean by engagement and building trust and choice. So the first slide really talks about engagement here. And it's true people want to see what is next. Think of the commercials we see. The next big thing. The Apple iPhones. Our phone is bigger. We take the best photos. Everyone wants this next thing. And in gamification in quest based learning we can provide to students the next thing. This looking forward without losing focus of where we are today. And that's pretty exciting. Again as we talk about excitement as excitement increases productivity increases. I'm from the Pittsburgh area so years ago when my father worked in the coal mine he told me stories that when the Steelers lost production in the coal mine was bad. I think the Steelers lost today which is kind of depressing. Hopefully my production won't decrease tomorrow. But as excitement increases production increases. And what increases excitement engagement when people feel like they're part of something. The other part of this is driving home competition. And this is very exciting. The ability to have some competition. Now we'll talk about some dangers and pitfalls as we move forward because sometimes competition can be bad. And we'll try to understand what makes competition bad and how we can improve it to make it good competition. A solid foundation for people to move about the quests. The next benefit of course that we talked about was building trust. And I could spend days talking about trust. I think building trusted relationships with people are so very important. Trust is important. Again I asked you a few moments ago to think about the people that you have trusted the most in your lives. You want to work hard for them. You want to be a part of their lives. You want to be a part of their story. You want them to be a part of yours. We work harder. We study more. I used to work for someone that at two or three in the morning I would notice they would be up working. And I would say why don't you call me. I would love to help you at two or three in the morning. And he would always say no no no you're so busy Bill you should work on your stuff. And my answer was a resounding I don't want to work at two thirty but I'll help you. Right building these trust relationships. I'll work hard for him and help people. And then and in quest based learning in gamification we have to build this trust relationship with our students with our workers whomever we're building this out for. In this case we're speaking of education. In business I take a lot of business courses I teach leadership sessions in business and we talk a lot about trust. I love the definition that Franklin Covey uses for trust. You declare your intent. You have integrity. You are a capable person. You have capabilities and you deliver results. And if you think about those four aspects we can't have trust without those four aspects. And when you think about those four aspects and building trust and gamification that's exactly what we do. We declare our intent in the goals in the quest in defining what we want the students to do. We want you to save the world. We want you to pick these rocks. We want you to learn about this volcano. We want you to understand this math lesson. Integrity we have because we have a relationship as an educator, facilitator we go about our day with integrity. Of course we're very capable. All of us here are very capable. We build these wonderful virtual worlds. These great experiences we have we're very capable. And of course we deliver results and our students can tell the results that we have. They're excited. They're motivated. They move through. And I can't speak enough about the concept of what gamification does to build trust. We can look at business examples and education examples but I think that it's a key component to the success of gamification. The next slide and the third benefit is choice. And I can't go on enough about choice as well. Choice is an incredible, incredible part of gamification in quest based learning. Traditional learning requires us to have a due date. You have to have this paper done by Friday. You have to have this done by this date. And it's very linear. It's lecture one, quiz one, lecture two, quiz two. And although there is probably some type of overall picture and some overall path, it's very, very linear. In quest based learning, in gamification, these concepts allow us to allow the students to walk around and experience and choose when they decide to move through to this area and go to that area and pick up this lesson and do this part. We'll talk about the examples on this land after and you'll see that circular reference that I talked to but I want you to keep that in mind. The other part of choice is an enhanced feeling of ownership. Again, this is a very powerful concept. When you feel like you own it, it becomes very powerful. I took piano lessons. I did not want to play the beginning songs. I wanted to play Beethoven. I wanted to play the theme song from Fame. But I had to go through these steps but my piano teacher recognized this and to this day I can still play some of those songs that I was passionate about because I had a choice in my learning. And I think it's the same whether it's from my math background or my computer background. Anytime I've had a choice, I've been able to hold on to these things. So again, engagement, building trust and choice are huge benefits. Now there are many others but I like to focus on those three when I talk about gamification and quest based learning. So now I think it's important that we talk about some dangers. What are dangers? Everyone has some bad feelings about what is quest based learning and gamification and why it doesn't necessarily work right. And I want to talk about them. I think we need to openly talk about some of the dangers. I think that's important. We can talk about how great it is. We can talk about how wonderful it is. But what are some things we need to watch out for? And I think the first one is missing the mark on motivation. One of the topics we'll talk about today is this motivation. The difference between intrinsic and extrinsic motivation. What values internally to me and what I work for externally. A lack of understanding of game mechanics. A lack of understanding of game mechanics is very huge. And we need to understand what that means when we talk about game mechanics. The difference between a mechanic and a principle. Principles are things like the intrinsic motivators that we have and learning through intense fun. Principles are things that we'll put together of a self-reliance, a passion and an interest for what we specialize in. Principles are things like this learning by doing. A mechanism, they're the rules that we shape around the topic. Clear but challenging goals. The mechanisms are potentially a fictional setting or progressively difficult levels. These are the mechanisms that we'll use to go through and build out this gamification and quest-based learning. But a lack of understanding those two can be a danger. Bad competition. We talked about this earlier. There could be bad competition. It can be demoralizing at times. If you have a leaderboard and Tommy is always at the top of the leaderboard. As a student I could struggle. Maybe I find myself, oh well why should I try because I'll never get there. It's important for us to understand what competition does and how we need to create good competition. Now of course I have a very strong opinion. I don't think we need to create a situation where everybody gets a trophy but I think some competition is healthy but I think we need to be aware when there's bad competition. When people are becoming demoralized. In bad competition we'll talk about how to solve this through setting goals and through understanding goals. So we'll talk a little bit about how to address that. And then the other danger is never enough time to create content. I went to a presentation yesterday and I asked the question what are some of the pitfalls, technical or other. And there's never enough time. There's never enough time to create the right content. There's never enough time to go through what we have to. And that can be very intimidating and scary for people. And so I think we as content creators, we as developers of this virtual world, we need to be able to give tools to people and put them in the right hands to make this much faster. So those are some of the dangers that I wanted to talk a little bit about. And we'll talk about how to address them here moving forward. So where does Quest-based learning fit into all of the gamification concept? And what exactly does gamification mean to us all? And Quest-based learning. Well, Quest-based learning is not linear. We've talked about it. I've mentioned it. Quest-based learning is a concept that can be very circular. We have some Quest behind us. If you meet the little guy behind you, Dan, walks with bears. Walks with bears say, go talk to my father, the chief. If you run right to the chief and talk to the chief, he doesn't make you go back and talk to the son that you missed. It just continues to flow. We have a flow and it's circular. Where traditional learning, there seems to be a process. And Quest-based learning allows us to break away from that type of stuff. Quest-based learning also allows us to address different styles of learning. This is huge, the different styles of learning. Visual, auditory, kinesthetic, the ability to reach out and touch something. I was motivated yesterday. Any one of you that got to see Philip Rosdell talk, the ability to reach out and grab something in a virtual world and manipulate it. As we start to talk about Quest-based learning and doing these types of things, this becomes very exciting. Auditory. There was a sim in Second Life years ago called Seven Days Bakery, I believe it was. I'm sad that it doesn't work anymore. You would walk through and you would go into different areas and you would hear a voice. It was auditory. It wasn't reading text. As we go through this session here, as I leave some examples for you to go proves, mine of course give you the text. But this can be auditory. People can listen and then again it expands to other languages. It doesn't have to be English. We can do it in Spanish. We can do it in French. We can do it in Italian. And so Quest-based learning gives us so many different options to explore. And then the concept of Quest-based learning that is different. Quest and tasks are goal oriented. A lot of times it's hard for students to understand that when they take a quiz, there is a higher reason for that. Right? Sometimes they don't understand how often do you hear, I don't know why I need to take algebra. And when I taught those kids, I'd say, well, you can shop at my store anytime then. I would love for you to shop at my store. And so, but it was hard for them to understand, right? It was hard. Here we can hide, almost hide the ability that you're learning, right? Through these quests and tasks, the design is focused on individuals and it's flexible and it's circular and it's not a path. I feel in control of my learning whenever this happens. And Quest-based learning is very exciting because of that. As we talked about good and bad competition, we'll talk about intrinsic motivators. But I want to talk about reward systems as well. How do we reward our people after they do these questions? What do we give them? And how do we go about giving them some type of valuable takeaway? And so, what makes a strong reward? How are we going to do this? Years ago in the 60s or 70s, there was a test done by Walter Michele about the marshmallow test. I don't know if any one of you has ever seen the marshmallow test. But the marshmallow test is they gave a marshmallow to preschoolers and they said, you can eat the marshmallow now, but if you wait 20 minutes, we'll give you two of them. I think modern days, they give you the use pretzels and so on and so forth, other topics. But this ability to stifle self gratification is very important when we talk about rewards. So when we talk about strong rewards, we need to talk about what's the primary goal. When we talk about the primary goal, this is how we declare our intent. This is the part of defining this trust relationship for the people that are learning from us. How do we define what that is for them? Of course, one of my favorite quotes, one of my favorite things to hear is, fat happy rats don't run mazes. I think that makes me laugh every time I say it. Even when I say it now, I think it's outstanding. B.F. Skinner had no success teaching lab rats if the cheese was fed prior to the test. That's where that comes from. If you give all the rewards up front, no one's going to go do the task. So we need to manage that self gratification. We need to find that balance between what makes a successful reward and what makes it too difficult. As we talk about goals, we'll talk a little bit about that as well. Trust builds the ability to create valuable rewards. This is again crucial. If you notice, I go to business meetings all the time and we talk about trust and it's the same topic in my opinion with education. We have to have trust, trust between educators and students, trust between educators and other educators. We have to build this trust and trust allows us to find what's important and meaningful to our students. So we need to have that open communication and that understanding to facilitate choosing meaningful options for our classrooms. So how do we do that? One of the ways that we do that is we talk about motivators. And sometimes people we don't think about this, but it's certainly something that we want to talk about and that is intrinsic motivators. These are very, very hard to define. Intrinsic motivators, they are things that are internal to me. They're meaningful to me. And if I asked Ruby, Ruby, what's meaningful to me? Ruby may not know, right? If I ask other people in this group, well, what's meaningful to me? It's very hard as a presenter virtually. I want to respond to people. I can't see people's faces. The moment I say I can't see people's faces, then again, I was inspired by Philip's talk yesterday. I can see eyebrows and blinkings and head turning, right? I can see reactions. If I'm presenting to people, someone in front of me, I don't know if you're paying attention to me. I don't know what you're doing. The last stream person was talking about, you know, how they were in a bathrobe. And I don't know if that necessarily matters, but how do I know I'm hitting my internal motivations? My internal motivations are for you to all walk out of here and be inspired. Well, that's a great question. And I will, I will address that when we come to the QA, to the QA part. I see that how can you build trust when there's a set power system between the teacher and the students? I'll certainly talk about that. That's a great question. Internal motivators needs to be cultivated into a lifelong skill, right? We need to get people out of the concept of I need external motivators and extrinsic motivators. We need to build these. And what they found out back to the marshmallow test is that when people were able to delay that self gratification, those people were more successful in life 20 years down the road, right? They found other motivators. They were able to control those things. And so we need to be able to create that experience here. So of course, the other type of motivators is the concept of an extrinsic motivator. And these are certainly much easier to define. And we're guilty of it, right? Extrinsic's easy, right? You get an A, you get $10. Oh, you do this and you get this part, right? That's extrinsic type motivators. And to address that question of how you can build trust when there's a set power system between teacher and students. We have to be careful here because what happens is, is a lot of times that we create rewards and we use extrinsic motivators to solve that problem. And boy, we don't want to do that. That's a mistake, right? Because what happens is, then those rewards become expected, right? Those rewards, if we as educators use an external motivator to solve that problem that you just spoke of, we have to be very careful that we don't do that. And so I'll go back to intrinsic motivators. We really have to have open communication. And almost one of the advantages of quest-based learning and virtual systems are that now this brings the educator almost down to the level of a student when it comes to enjoyment. Because now there's this engagement, this common goal that is kind of above. And this is where the fantasy of quest-based learning comes into play. And so we'll talk about how to facilitate that when we come to the goal section as well. So I think trust using intrinsic motivation is one of the ways to address that. I'll talk about it as we talk about goals here in a moment is another way to address it. So why are we here? What is this all about? How does this come in? Why are we doing this? Well, one of the things that it does is it provides immediate feedback. There's immediate feedback to my students. I know immediately if someone is struggling, I can see someone, if I set forth the people that are in this land right now and say, go ahead and learn about the paths of the ancients in this great basin and go learn about early American history, go and learn about this. I can see people wandering off to the side. I can see someone struggling to go through. Part of building trust is now I can walk up to that person in this virtual world and I can guide them. They're almost on a one-on-one basis that you can't do in a lecture style. Because in a linear type of lecture, I don't have that ability. I can't stop an entire lecture and just focus on a single person. But in a virtual setting, I can guide them. And so that's another way to help build trust, building that capability and showing them the results and walking them through. And this immediate feedback that we get is very powerful. Learning becomes fun. This to me is a lot more fun. In the last presentation that I was just at, Bella was talking about this ability to go in and see the virtual world in reality and how she cried when she saw that she could fly. These emotions, this spark of inspiration and engagement is what we want to drive for. And so, again, to answer the how do we build trust, we do that through that type of motivation. We find those emotional connections and I think it's much easier in a virtual world to do that. I think it's so much more easy. One of the other benefits that we get from quest-based learning and gamification is we get learning beyond memorization. Now, certainly memorization has its points. And I'm sure my piano teacher would be great that I've referenced him now twice. Every good boy does fine. All cows eat grass. I've memorized those and that's how I read sheet music. I can remember that. I'll never forget that. Certainly memorization has its place. But when I was deeply engaged, when I was with people that I trusted and felt comfortable with, when I had the choice to go through and find other people that were enjoying what I was, that's made me the person that I am today. That's this deeper learning way beyond anything that I've gotten from reading a book by myself in a room. And I think that's the connection that we want to get. And I think that's why I am so passionate about this. That's why I've created the system that I did. And that's why I came to talk today. The next thing is, and this is huge, we have to be able to measure our success. How do we define success as we're talking about these things? And we have to be able to find some type of measurement. How do we do this? In today's education, we have percentage points and how many we got right out of how many we got wrong. And we get feelings and we need to be able to understand what we need to do and how we need to approach it. And so, are levels? Is it experience? How hard is too hard? In the talk this morning, we heard about how real is too real, right? I mean, lots of people come into a virtual world because it takes their mind off the struggles of realities. And so, we want to make sure that we cover that in how we define success. We need in all of this better reporting on all of our interactions. Time spent per task. How many times did we have to do it over? What did we see first? What did we see last? How did we approach these things? And again, it goes back to different learnings. But as content, as developers, someone said earlier in this talk, we as developers are responsible for the content. We as developers in the content, we have to give better reporting so we know that we do this. So we know and we give educators the ability to see what's happening. The other part of this is we absolutely need feedback. Feedback is crucial. There's a formula for results. Goals, rules, and feedback all provide results. Yesterday, I was in a talk when we heard about coefficients of this and studying this. That's part of the feedback, right? So our goals, rules, and feedback all provide results. So we need good metrics. And I know I'm about at the 30 minute mark. And so I just have a few more slides that I want to talk about and how to address these issues of gamification and quest-based learning. One of them is with goals. Goals is very important. Again, when I do my leadership trainings for business, we talk about goal writing and we talk about smart goals. If you all have not seen smart goals, please go Google Smart Goals. Smart goals are pretty cool. It gives you this specific, measurable, achievable, realistic, and timely thing that you want to do. When I taught students ready to embark into the real world, I'd ask them, what do they want? Inevitably, someone would say, I want to make a million dollars. And I would tell them cross that off their list. They already want to. They need to be able to be measurable, achievable, realistic, and timely. Wanting something, I already want it. What else? What makes a better goal, right? How do we do this in creating goals? The other one in goals, wherever you are in the world listening to me talk, if I'd ask you to reach your hand as high as you could, I hope everyone's raising their hand. As you raise your hand, I want you to go and think about it. Why do they need everyone to raise it a little higher? I bet some of you probably stretch and reach a little higher. I bet if I ask one more time, raise it a little bit more higher, someone inevitably will stand on their table or someone will stand on their chair, and they will raise it even higher than it was. So smart goals when it comes to quest-based learning and gamification aren't enough, because that's just a small part of what we need to do. Because as you see, just in that example, there were three different levels of where that goal was. Certainly you raised it high, and where are my limits, right? I didn't tell anyone not to stand on their table or climb a ladder, right? I just said raise your hand as high as you could. So we need to think about three other facets of goals. One of them is called, I like to call it, epic-based goals. These are big picture, hard to measure, save the world. In the example behind you, hopefully after this, and for months to come if this region is still available for you, this is to help the villagers, right? We're here to help the villagers. Ultimately, we're here to learn about it, but it's this epic fantasy story, right? It's this concept, it's this overriding goal that we want to strive to get to, an epic-based goal. Quest-based goals are about the journey, not necessarily the destination. What am I doing? How am I getting there? We need to ask ourselves as content creators and educators, what is the value of this to the epic story, and what do I want people to learn in this situation? We may find out, you may find out in your land, in your quest-based learning that people will walk around and they'll look at all the different flowers. When this land was first built, four people came to me and said, it looks like you need to cut the grass. It's amazing what people find that I didn't expect. I didn't think anyone would look at the grass, yet I found four people that came to me within 10 minutes and said, boy, you need to get a better landscaper, right? And so we need to be able to understand inside of our environment, what are these side goals and quest goals, and how can we create them? And that's pretty exciting. These task-based goals, task-based goals are like the smart goals. They're very measurable. They're completed or not yet completed or finished, right? They're very measurable, achievable, timely, and we go from there. And so to answer again your question of how do we build that trust, I think we build better goals, right? We build a better goal. We build this bigger picture. I was fortunate enough to play football through high school and college. When I was in high school, you had an overriding rule. Even if you forgot the play, you blocked the guy on you. You blocked the guy over you. You blocked the guy to the play side. You had an overriding goal that allowed you to continue down the path for success. And so we don't want to forget those things. So I just want to talk quickly about what's behind you, and then I'll take some questions if anyone has any. I built the Honor Engine, and it's a tool set of scripts, reports, and libraries to kind of accomplish this quest-based learning and feedback and achievement and rewards. It allows you to gather items, create quests, give students achievements, rewards, and so on. And I kind of rushed through this slide. My topic is about gamification and quest-based learning, not about the Honor System. Although I love to talk about the Honor System, I certainly can do that for days. But behind you, you'll kind of start to see all these topics that we talked about in motion. And behind us, you'll see quests from NPCs. You'll hear about food that the villagers need and items for their shelter and weapons that need to be made, and how this can kind of come about. The nice part about the Honor System is you don't have to be a scripter. You fill out a bunch of note cards. It took me 30 minutes to create all the quests behind you for what I needed. All I did was fill out note cards, drop them in, and we were done. It's pretty exciting. So when we get to that point after the questions, I'll hang around if anyone wants to hang around. And we could talk about it a little bit more and we can go through. There's a little NPC that you're welcome to go get a little HUD for that kind of gives you some extra information about it and how it solves the problem. So in summary, I just want to say because I'm running out of time and I certainly want to be able to answer any questions that people might have. I want you to think about what gamification does for us and quest-based learning. And what it does is it allows us to have engagement, motivation, and choice. And that's very exciting. I want you to think about the difference between intrinsic and extrinsic motivators and how we need to be able to find that internal fire inside of our students or our people, whatever application of this is. How do we find this internal, these intrinsic motivators and use extrinsic motivators as sparing as possible? I want you to think about the concepts in quest-based learning that we've talked about and why it's important. I want you to think about these deeper goals beyond the smart goals. I want you to think about how these concepts kind of come together and how they're folded up. If we run out of time, again, I appreciate everyone that's been here. Please take a moment and write down my contact information. I certainly will be happy to answer any questions at any time for anyone. I love this topic. I love talking to people about it. Obviously I've spent 40 minutes going on about it. Again, my name is Bill Jobes. I can be reached at bill at honorengine.com or through the website there's a contact page. So please don't hesitate to reach out and contact me. So I can take any questions now if there are any. Bill, I think there was still the question about how can you build trust where there is a set power system between teachers and students. Right. So we kind of answered that, but I'll kind of go back and summarize the answer as we talk about that. So this trust relationship when there's a power dynamic between an educator and a student, I think that that is something that we need to overcome. And I think we overcome that by building trust, by declaring our intent by saying this is what I want a student to do by going about it with integrity. And integrity maybe with a teacher is not necessarily beating a student down or it's about building that rapport and communication. It's about showing these capabilities of the student in this case. We want to show that they can move forward, that they are learning, that they are picking these things out. And that's very, very exciting. And so again, I think in any trust relationship, we do that by intent, integrity, capabilities and results. Another question, ask about whether you've had a chance to experiment or test your gamification and how that worked out, the honor system? Oh yes, it's been outstanding. I've had some schools use the honor engine to build out an entire quest of pebble people. I actually have my own grid and it's very private and secure for students and teachers to go in and it's outstanding. The students love it, the teachers love it. It was a little bit of an education moving forward with the educators to get them content. I spent a lot of time making content for them. I like to look at my education plan in the honor engine as a 12-year plan. That's really how I answer that question. I think that in the beginning it's a game for the kids. And I think as they get older, they can learn how to script. Maybe the kids that don't learn how to script, they love graphics. So maybe they learn how to make graphics. And so I think that there's a whole 12-year plan that you can put together where the older kids are actually making content for the teachers that are there. And so this sim, by the way, was built on my grid honor engine worlds for a gentleman in Utah and he uses it for education. They find acorns and a guava and so that's where this comes from. He uses this to teach the paths of the ancients. So it's been fantastic success. The last one, are there any relative research reports or publications that you can share? So I certainly can. If you'd like to leave me your email, I have a bunch that I can go ahead and give people. Certainly I have that kind of contact and I'll post them up on the webpage so you can see them. There was a school a few years ago in New York. They completely used quest-based learning. That's all it was. It was 100% quest-based learning. And so we can certainly go through and I can publish those and I can give those to you. Anyone else? Okay, I want to thank you, Bill, for a terrific presentation. Thanks Ruby. And our audience. Yeah, again thanks to everyone.