 Good evening, good afternoon, or good morning, wherever you are around the world, welcome here in Geneva, in Davos, I'm Roberto Boca, the energy and material center at the World Economic Forum. Today we are taking one very, very important topic. As a forum we do a yearly assessment of the energy transition around the world. If you think of the crisis we had recently after the invasion of Russia in Ukraine, the big concern in terms of the impact of the energy security was that sustainability will lose out of this crisis. In reality, when we look at the number, the one loser, the big loser in terms of the energy transition has been equity. So if you go by the principle of the energy triangle, sustainability, security, and equity, equity has been the big loser. That's not good. There won't be any transition if there is not an equitable and just transition. So as such as the forum we have issued today a new report on building trust through an equitable and inclusive energy transition. This is a topic very, very important, and so we are very glad to have you with us today to discuss this topic. No one needs to be left behind when we talk about energy transition. I end over now to John Defterios to take us through this session. Thank you, John. Roberto, thanks very much. I'm delighted to be part of the center and very happy that this is part of our agenda, leaving no one behind in this process. It's quite extraordinary. If you think of the global population of about 7 billion people, we still have 10 percent or 700 million people that don't have access to energy at all. So that has to be a very important part of our equation. I'm delighted we have great diversity on the panel from all parts of the world, which I think could help us take a deep dive in what we're looking at here. We've been through a lot since COVID-19. We saw that drop in demand and a drop in emissions. People got excited about it. And then that recovery that took place, which really strong demand of oil demand of a better than 100 million barrels a day. And then you wonder what happened after Russia, Ukraine, he brings that energy security question on to the table here. And does it push out climate? So also part of this discussion is how do you balance out the pathway to net zero by 2050 if not earlier and still provide energy security for people at the same time and invest in our future to deliver on climate action when there's a lot of skepticism. I was one anecdote which I thought was interesting. For the first time here at the World Economic Forum, this energy transition and climate is one of the top four issues. It's one of the pillars of rebuilding trust in the world for 2024 at Davos, which I think is important. And if you walk in through the main entrance, you'll see the graphic drawing of some of the debate that's taking place here. Right at the center of that graphic drawing here in Davos is all about the energy transition and climate and the concerns about that going into the future. I want to introduce our guests. It's a delight to have them all here. Veronica Nielsen is the General Secretary for Trade Union Advisory Committee, TuAC at the OECD in France. It's great to have you. Omar Andres Camacho Morales is the Minister of Energy and Minds of Columbia. It's great to have you. He's going to be speaking in Spanish. We have translation devices on your chairs. Go to channel two to make sure you hear everything he has to say. Andres Guski is the Chief Executive Officer of AES in the USA. It's a company driven to provide technologies on the energy transition and scale. Khadib Singh is the Chairman and Managing Director of NTPC in India. He's going to talk about the deployment of renewable energy, but actually delivering energy to make sure no one's left behind and what's in his energy mix. And Jennifer Morgan is the State Secretary and Special Envoy for International Climate Action of Germany. Jennifer, I think it's a good place to start because I talked about the impact Russia Ukraine did have and it kind of nudged climate awareness or urgency to the side here. And we had to be very nimble as a world to make sure everybody had access to natural gas and not to have an over dependency on Russia, which is a big lesson. But what's the lesson learned out of that process, would you say, of having energy security needs to be met and the scramble for supplies and making sure we don't lose the concept of making sure that there's energy access for all here, that no one's left behind in the transition, that it's not a dominant force from the developed world or the G7, please? I mean, perhaps to start by the German experience in the European Union and I think what we have worked to do is to combine energy security, climate security and economic security all together. So one lesson is don't be dependent on one country for fossil fuels or don't be dependent too much on fossil fuels as a whole. Diversify, of course. The other lesson, I think, is to go domestic and to drive up renewable energy. So Germany now, last year, we had a boom year on our renewable energy growth. We have over 350,000 jobs in the renewable energy sector with over 50%. Renewables, Europe has increased its renewable energy targets. So renewables and efficiency have been the main response after we, of course, phased out all of our import of Russian fossil fuels. So I don't see actually a conflict between energy security and climate security. I see that you have to hold them in your mind and in your policymaking all at once with economic security as well. And then what we've been working to do, because what I'm seeing is a massive geopolitical shift in this moment because countries that beforehand were not potential powerhouse energy providers of the world now suddenly could be. So the Africa Climate Summit actually, that happened in Nairobi in September with President Ruto, saw himself and Africa as major providers of the raw materials but also of the green hydrogen for jobs for youth in Africa for economic development. So I think what Germany then needs to be working on is actually partnerships. We have with both Colombia and India quite a lot of work that happens together. On eye level we're creating local value creation in countries so that they actually are part of this energy transformation that we're now in the midst of so that we can meet also the goals that we all agree to at COP28. We agree to transition away from fossil fuels and we agree to triple renewable energy and double efficiency by 2030. So first think it all together. Also be thinking about the climate impacts, hydrogen, hydro. In some countries is no longer a good base load. Build up, put in the right policies and financing and incentives on the renewables and then work with partnership with other countries around social ecological partnerships so that you're thinking the social as well. Different categories and then I'll wrap up. Obviously how Germany works with an India or with a Colombia is very different than how we work with Kenya or Africa. At the COP there was an initiative launched by President Ruto from Kenya, an acceleration partnership for renewable energy in Africa and that is all about energy access. And now we're looking at how we can drive down the cost of capital in Africa for investments through guarantees. OK, very good. I want to circle back with you a little bit later about the dependency on coal because of the shock and then accelerating permitting for renewable energy at a very fast pace. The LNG permitting to get that project off the ground happened in record time as a result of that shock. I'm going to have everybody grab their headsets if you don't speak Spanish to bring in Minister Morales. It's very interesting because a year and a half ago President Gustavo Petro promised a progressive energy transition from coal, moving away from coal and oil to have carbon-free capitalism as he talked about. I'm cognizant of time in having the translation here, but you're pledging no new oil and gas projects. You can live off the existing projects and then make the transition to renewable energy. Is that target too ambitious because of your need for export earnings, number one, but also the need to provide energy to the Colombian people? Thanks. As you all know, we're not just concerned on overcoming dependencies on other countries, but also our dependency and dependence on one fuel, one single fuel or one single type of energy. So we've organized this transition process in Colombia for that to end up this dependence. So we're creating conditions for energetic sovereignty, energetic independence. And this is an ambitious project, but we've already succeeded to have a roadmap to plan an energetic transition. And I'm talking about exploring on energies, not just to develop hydrofuels, but we want to also explore energies in countries and in a context like the Latin American context, where we have water, sun, wind, and we may use geothermic energy, wind energy, and other renewable energies to face climate change. And this is what we have wanted to do. And we're already going forward to better implement renewable energies and to transform our energetic matrix on one hand and also on the other hand. And this is a great discussion. And fortunately, the WEF has dealt on energetic transition. And we're talking about an economic transition. We're thinking about guaranteeing other ways of income. And we want to not just develop new energies, but also tourism, food, and other type of energies like green hydrogen. And we want to become energy suppliers for our neighbors and also for the rest of the world. Colombia is a geostrategic place that is quite favorable because we border five countries and we want to connect our electrical grid throughout South America towards the north and have green hydrogen and share it with the rest of the world. So as our president said, not just do we want to progress in extractive fuel. No, we want to end up not needing extractive fuel and have a decarbonized energy. This is our aim. I'm going to come back to you a little bit later about access to finance, the issue about access to finance to be able to make that transition happen because that's one of the debates we have today. Everybody wants countries, even those that sit on strategic assets and oil and gas as well, do you have the funding that's necessary? So think about that. Veronica Nielsen, I think it would be a good way for you to come in here and look at how you define energies, equity, justice, and inclusivity. What does it mean today in your view if you're taking the trade and jobs position on this, which I think would be a good sober reminder for everybody in the audience. Thank you very much, John. Yes, indeed. For us, to manage the energy transition and all the other transitions as well, the only way we can do it is through a just transition. You cannot impose changes on people. You have to do the changes with people. And I think that's really important to keep in mind. First, because you need their buying of reforms, you need their acceptance of reforms, but also you will get a much better outcome if you do things with people. And that's why trade unions for a very long time have been calling for a just transition. Now, this transition is going to be, or it is already, very, very difficult because the question is, a lot of jobs will disappear and they will be hopefully replaced with new jobs. But why will these new jobs be created? Will we have enough jobs? So it's a question of quantity of jobs and it's a question of quality of jobs. And I mean, there are some reassuring research saying that there are lots of new jobs will be created. The IEA has estimated, I think, 14 million jobs in clean energy by 2030. But what about the quality then? There is, for example, research from the US which shows that the traditional energy sector is much more unionized than, for example, new energy sector, and that means that workers usually have better working conditions. Normally they have, for example, better access to training. So there is a risk there. There is also obviously research coming out with the, I think it's the employment outlook next year, which also point to the concern that jobs in the brown sector, which will disappear, when they would be replaced, workers might not earn as much as they do now. So all these are really important issues that need to be taken aboard. And then we have the whole issue of supply chains. I think we all agree that it's great having electronic cars. That's good for the environment, right? But when you do electronic cars, you also use a lot of raw material metals, which exist in countries where violations of human rights are very regular, happens a lot. And just one example, Madagascar, which is, for example, a country which is terribly impacted by climate change, where you have draughts, places where you can no longer cultivate food, which means people starve, and they then turn to trying to extract minerals, metals from mines. These are not regular jobs. This is just what they do. When they don't get properly paid, they don't get enough paid to have it, to even have a full meal throughout the day. So I just want to raise this, because when we talk about a just transition and how to do the just transition, we must remember this, because, as I said, it looks very good on paper. Yes, electronic cars, but how do we produce these electronic cars? I'm glad you brought it up. I'm going to pose that question a little bit later in terms of the mining that needs to take place, whether it's in Colombia or other countries around the world. It's seven times the strategic minerals and metals that are needed for the energy transition. Nobody likes to talk about it. And the permitting, for example, in North America and Europe for that sort of mining activity that can take a very long period of time, which just slows down that transition as well. Kudip, I'd love to bring you into the conversation, because India, which I've had the chance to do a documentary on the energy transition there, and I know the abundance of coal, but I'd like to call India with a population of 1.4 billion people, all of the above country, because it needs all the energy it can get its hands on. In that context, can it still hit the targets for 2030 on its renewable targets today with the other issue I did raise is whether you have everybody having access to energy and accessible. And I think that was a major benchmark and target by the Modi administration. Please, just be cognizant of time. Thanks. Yeah, thank you. I think there should not be any doubt that by 2030, whatever the stated objective of 500 gigawatt of the non-fossil capacity, we are working on that. And as of today, we are having almost 175 gigawatt of the renewable energy which has already been commissioned and we are well on track including our company which is playing a leading role in that, both investing on our own as well as procuring the power and in turn selling the power to the distribution companies. And as far as the access to the electricity and the energy, clean energy, I think India has shown the way in the last decade, we have added more than 100 gigawatt of the capacity in the renewable itself. I'm just, but our needs of the energy is really increasing. We are resisting almost about double digit growth in the electricity consumption, which is, which cannot be met only by the renewables when the storage solutions are not affordable at present neither reliable nor, so it will take some time. So we will have to, during this period, we will have to rely on all the sources of energy that's whether it is coal, whether it's oil, gas, hydro, solar, wind. And tomorrow we are also working on the further steps on the green hydrogen and green chemicals, green ammonia. Good, if I can follow up very quickly, what's the mix in your company of coal compared to the other energy sources you were talking about? See, at present we have around 75 gigawatt of the total installed capacity. Out of that we have the non-fossil of around 6.5 gigawatt, but at the same time there is eight gigawatt which is under construction and every day there is some capacity which is getting commissioned almost anyways. So by 2030, we will be achieving 60 gigawatt of the renewable energy capacity on that side. So. It's growing fast. What's the percentage of coal today as my question was? See, as a country we are having almost around 426 gigawatt of the capacity and out of that 206 gigawatt. So pretty high percentage, right? It's come down substantially, but still high. Yeah, so what has been declared by the Prime Minister that by 2030 we will have the 50-50% of the capacity on the fossil and non-fossil on that side and which is the work which is in progress and there is no doubt that we should be able to achieve that. In addition to that, there is a lot of work which is going on on the energy efficiency side and we are the country which has shown way how the equitable access to the clean source of energy electrified. We electrified almost around 28 million houses in the period of 18 months. So today every household in the country is having the access to the electricity and on an average they are getting almost around 22 hours in the day. Great. You know, I raised the question earlier about this balance between energy, equity, justice and inclusivity. Andres, I'd love to hear from a private sector point of view, what does that mean to you? We had a debate today within the center with other partners that base load energy should be almost a human right and we don't see it that way because we're leaving people behind in the 21st century which I find pretty extraordinary. How do you define it from AES? Well, what I'd say is first, you know, when we talk about sort of equity, right? What will be the effects of climate change? They're going to fall most upon the people who are poorest and most vulnerable. So I think in this whole debate, we have to have a sense of urgency of how we're going to address this. So, you know, in our company our mission is to accelerate the future of energy because we really believe that we really need new technologies and many senses to address this problem. So if you just extrapolate like you brought up today's technology doing what we're doing today and try to triple renewables by 2030 there isn't enough stuff. There's enough transmission, there are not enough minerals, et cetera. On the other hand, I'm not, I'm very optimistic because there are so many breakthroughs being made on materials, on using more intelligent systems, more intelligent buildings that we can get there. So when we talk about electrifying those who don't have electricity, I think that too much is sort of status quo thinking. We don't need to build transmission lines out to these people. Today you have efficient solar energy and you have batteries. And you can give them 24-7 on a localized basis and it's distributed energy. So you don't have to rebuild what we had before. I mean, think about something like telecom. The first country to have a fully digital network was Chile. Why? Because it had a pretty bad one. Therefore it had a built new one, right? Think about telecoms in Africa. It's caused a revolution in business. The business solutions were done by Africans. The build-out was done by African entrepreneurs. It wasn't basic that the OECD had to come and give them enormous subsidies to do this. So I think in the electric revolution now, one of our principal roles is to create the killer apps in technologies, more efficient solar, more efficient and cheaper batteries and make sure that they become available. So I'm not arguing against, you know, providing funds for adaptation and helping get these things kickstarted. But I think we're underestimating two things. One is the urgency of the problem in front of us. Second of all, that's the most unequitable thing that will happen. It will fall upon the most vulnerable. Second, the importance of the role of technology and new solutions. Because again, if you just take today's grid and sort of tell countries to rebuild what you have, is not the most efficient, it's going to take too long. Okay, very good. I want to bring the polling question up if I may. So if you want to grab your mobile phones to take a look at the QR codes so you can vote along with us. You can bring up the slide again for us here behind the scenes. And also, can we bring up the polling question at the same time? Thanks. So what do you see as the most pressing energy equity issue to tackle? You can look at it in the plural or the singular. Energy access for all, which we talked about before. Affordability of energy for all. Jobs in the transition, as Ms. Nielsen talked about, resulting from the energy transition itself. Consumer and community engagement in the energy transition and reducing the divide between the developed and the developing nations in energy transition. We're in Aspen Room 1. If you've taken a look at that QR code, no, go ahead and let you vote. And we'll talk when the voting is complete. The other thing I wanted to bring up here is the danger that we're not able to finance this energy transition for the global south. And I would imagine Germany has its eyes on it. It's collaborated, as you said, in different parts of the emerging markets of the world. Do you want to address that, State Secretary? Yeah, absolutely. I mean, financing is fundamental. And I think there's many different components of it. I think one of the first pieces is that countries have the fiscal space to be able to invest their own funds in solutions, whether they be in energy, whether it be on more resilience. And that has to do with the debt burdens that countries carry. We're actually working with Columbia and Kenya and France right now to be looking at different financing mechanisms and debt swaps as well as participating in many conversations about this because this is something we've heard as a major priority from developing countries. So I would like to put that here in the midst. That was, again, an issue at COP 28. It was. Was it not? The green finance funding that's available, loss and damage is not replenished to the targets everybody wants to have, but there's money deployed. But to Andrea's point, how do we accelerate this process? But just to say, I mean, I think this year, so we have to bring down the cost of capital, right? And we have to look at the guarantee mechanisms that could come in to bring down the cost of capital. It costs eight times as much to put in renewables in Africa as it does in Europe. So this is another piece where we have a very fragmented landscape in the financial world where we need reform of the international financial institutions because they're not fit for purpose right now. We need to leverage private sector finance. We're not doing that well either. And of course we need to continue on developed countries providing the financing. Finally, this year we could report or the OECD confirmed we'd met the 100 billion commitment, but we need the trillions, right? So we need to be putting in place in a way the finance ecosystem in a way where finance and banks are more fit for purpose for the crises that we have today, whether it be on building resiliency in electricity and energy systems, which is also an equity issue, whether it be providing the financing for renewables, whether it be providing the fiscal space and dealing with some of the debt issues and getting the infrastructure invested. So Global Gateway from the European Union, 2.3 billion coming in on renewable energy infrastructure and that's all part of the mix. But this has to be the year that we turn the tide on this. Yeah, so pretty verge is there. I just want to go to the poll and then I'll come back to you, Andrew. Thanks. What do you see as the most pressing energy equity issues of our times? Energy access for all at 51%. It's quite interesting. Affordability of energy which came up during the crisis. It hit everybody in the pocketbook. Inflation remains a problem and the energy prices remain high. And a third thing that we should reduce the divide between the developing nations and the energy transition. I'm not sure if you agree with this one, Ms. Nielsen, jobs transition resulting from the energy transition doesn't take a high priority. You've got to step up your push here and consumer and community engagement in the energy transition. I think there's also an education part of this transition as well. If you need seven times the minerals to get to electrification that everybody wants, do they really want all this mining activity around the world or not? Grady, what do you take away from the poll and we'll go to Andrews afterwards. Thanks. No, I think it is quite clear that energy access to all and that to also the clean source of energy. I think that is important. And then that can only happen, I believe, through deepening the grids and then greening the grid. We will have to work towards that each and every citizen, each and every person on this earth should have the access to the clean source of energy. Otherwise, I think whatever we are doing that will go on increasing the divide between developing and developing this in any way. Could your thoughts on this? You wanted to weigh in on this distribution of financing as well. Yes, but I want to say I think we have to have a more nuanced discussion because the most say people who don't have electricity today and typically in Latin America, it's like more isolated communities. So we've actually done, for example, demos where you put in solar, put in batteries and you can provide, that's the cheapest system wide. But they need help to be able to even pay for that. So I would say that a more nuanced approach to direct subsidies for those who can't pay because developing nations aren't uniform. You have wealthy people, you have wealthy businesses. So why should they be subsidized? So really, how do we target the subsidies for those who really can't pay would be my first. Second to more nuanced discussion, in most places renewable energy is the cheapest energy. Okay, let's stop that discussion. That is true. It's not the cheapest capacity or dispatchable. It's not 24 seven. It's not the base load that we were talking about. Well, what I would call it is a dispatchable. That's sort of, you know, you could have a lot of sun someplace. So you have 12 hours guaranteed. What do you do on the corners? Right. So that's what I call the capacity or the dispatchable energy. So that's the real problem with renewables. It's not renewables per se, is how do you take care of a corner? So batteries can take, can do that to an extent on a daily basis, but they're still relatively expensive. That's why we need cheaper batteries to make this really what you call and take a sort of killer app. You may have to continue to run your gas plants or other fossils or if you have hydro. But I think we need a more nuanced discussion because like there's only so much money. It should go for those who really can't pay. Second, renewables are in basically the cheapest energy. So let's focus on the problem. The problem is really the capacity. How do you get that dispatchable energy at the corners when the renewables aren't there? And I'm very optimistic about what the technologies can get there. I'm very worried about the discussion which is very status quo. Yeah. And very, you know, renewables aren't competitive. Well, it's just not true. It's not true. Good. Ms. Nilsa, I want to go back to you on this sense of urgency. I was a bit surprised that we wasted quite a bit of energy on the language of the communique at COP 28. And we're kind of ignoring the elephant in the room where we need about $4 trillion a year on the energy transition. And if I have my numbers correct, depending on the which sources you use, it's about $1.5 trillion invested in energy today. So it's a shortfall on the top line number. Does it frustrate you we don't take the sense of urgency on the transition and then you have a crisis like Russia, Ukraine, and it gets pushed back a little bit? Please. I'd like to open this up to the floor as well. Yeah, of course, because I think this is the biggest challenge we have. This is really an existential crisis for humanity. And it's certainly taking far too long. The result of COP 28 is disappointing. And the issue you just discussed about financing, yeah, we don't see really finances coming through. And the pressure we put on developing countries because we say you're not supposed to use fossil fuels, you should use renewables, but what about ourselves? And how can we demand that of countries that need to develop? So yes, no, indeed. I can only agree. But I can come back later, but I was so happy to give you a few examples of what we can do as trade unions, as social partners to negotiate agreements because I think there are lots of good examples on local level, sectoral level, national and international level. But every situation is different as well. And when we talk about a just transition, we have to go into the details of the policies, of the actions, the measures. We can't just talk about these broad headings. It really needs to be detailed, plan what you do. Well, for example, you have social dialogue at the local level, just to give you one example in Italy with the energy company, E&I, the three Italian trade union confederations have made an agreement on how to introduce the energy transition. So that's one way. There's also very interesting example from North America with the North America's building trade unions that signed an agreement with the Danish offshore company Östed, which is also how to create new jobs in renewable energy and how to do these. You allow workers to organize and you have a well-paid job. So there are lots of things which can be done at the local level. Then you bring it up to the sectoral level. There's also an interesting agreement from Spain between governments and social partners, how to face out coal. You have the national level. A number of governments have set up these kind of authorities to deal with the just transition. Canada, Australia. Scotland has the Just Transition Commission. And then you also have the international level, for example, with the International Energy Agency. They have put together a labor council where they invite trade unions from all over the world to have regular consultations just to discuss how you can do the transition. So there are lots of things to be done. And of course, financing is desperately needed. OK, I'm going to take one more question on that point. So thanks for making my transition a little bit easier to Minister Morales. I wanted you to give some thought to the access to financing for a country like Colombia. And can you answer at the same time whether you're willing in this new administration, very progressive administration, to answer the call for the mining assets? Are you willing to develop them, despite the policies here? To have less dependency on natural resources? It'd be cognizant of time. And then I want to take some questions from the floor. Well, first of all, part of what's happening is the need to develop vehicles and devices that will accelerate the use of resources like for the countries like ours. And so that none of us are left behind. And for this, we need to improve mechanisms so that we go faster. But as you already said, we're working with Germany, France, and Kenya to get fiscal spaces so that public administrations may help. So we need to change the subsidy plan for other types of energies and countries like ours. The country of beauty is going on this roadmap. But we need to do more. And we need the help of other countries. We need to accelerate the process so that we are not left behind. And we need to keep up the pace of countries. I mean, we take 26 cups to discuss energy, but we don't have so much time. So there's the whole minerals that are strategic in the discussion. So we have the minerals for transition in Colombia. So we need to make efforts. And what we're developing is knowledge of what we have. And the potential in Colombia, we're developing a geoscientific plan to have sovereignty over what we have so that we know what is in Colombia and what are the rules of game in Colombia so that we can develop an energetic transition in favorable conditions for all and so that no one is left behind. Great. Thanks for addressing the mining side of it as well. I want to see if there's any hands for questions. I want to, Khadib wanted to weigh in, but any questions from the floor to get into the debate? Let me know and we'll get a microphone to you. Khadib, you wanted to follow up on that and come to. John, the main issue is the meeting the demand of the electricity as per the requirement of the consumers. And this is where this is not only the base load, but the peak demand meeting, the peak demand is the major question. And that is going to take a little longer. What Mr. Gluski just mentioned, unless there is a battery prices or the other sources of the storage, like the pump storage or tomorrow hydrogen, the electrolyzer cost has to come down almost by one third or one fourth. Otherwise, meeting this or leaving no one behind is going to be only, looks to be dreamed with the only renewable energy. So we will have to work. There is an urgency that we find the solutions so that the storage solutions start coming in. That is very, very important. So the grid is available and reliable. Good. How did we get this urgency, Andreessen, in a sense? I was kind of defining it as a global moonshot. And President Kennedy said that he wanted to be there in eight years. It did happen. But why don't we take that sense of urgency when it comes to the transition? I'm kind of fascinated by it. I mean, we just had the hottest year on record. We're almost at 1.8 degrees, and we're talking about keeping it at 1.5. There's not realism in the conversation, right? Well, I think it's a little bit like the story of how do you boil a frog? You do it little by little, and he never realizes he's boiling. So unfortunately, we're not very good at responding to longer-term crises. So getting to it, yes, we definitely need a greater sense of urgency. And I think that we need a more frank talk between the business sectors, between the scientists, and between governments. Because I think that, honestly, we tend to speak to a particular audience. And there's not enough sort of cross-boundary thinking. Just to give you a case, people like to talk about how many billions are invested. Well, what about the efficiency of use? What about better utilizing existing resources? Electricity is a strange market. You have no buffer. You build for the peak demand. The peak demand could be one hour a day. And you have all these transmission assets, all this iron, all this copper, all this steel. And transmission is the main bottleneck in building out renewables. Well, how can you better use the transmission? So we have a big project in Germany, actually one of our companies, Fluence, where we're bringing North Sea wind. We store it in batteries. We ship it over the existing transmission lines off peak hours. And we're able to bring it down to the industrial load in Moverio. That saves you decades and billion dollars in avoided costs. Well, some businesses, it's not in their interest to avoid billions of investments because they make a cost plus return, that's the truth. But also efficiency of use. So when you project out like you did, we're not going to get there by more of the same. So we have to be more efficient in the use. We also have to better utilize existing investments. We have to target, I think, the subsidies. And also have a frank discussion of what's the problem of investing in the developing countries. Many times it's security being paid. So I think international organizations take a case like Haiti. You have the Dominican Republic next storm, which has gas, which has ample electricity. It could be the fastest way of providing more electricity to Haiti. The problem with Haiti is people don't have credit. So a mechanism where, say, you know, you had sort of a credit guarantee if they didn't pay in the next days, you could go get paid, would allow you to immediately start responding to the terrible situation in Haiti. So what I'm calling for is like, we need to be more creative, all of us. And the business sector also has to be more frank in its discussions, and bring in the scientists. Because I also hear things proposed as solutions, which I don't think makes science sense, honestly, from looking at energy conversions, you know. So that's where I would come out, is that we need a franker discussion and raising the level of, let's say, sophistication of the discussion we're having. Good, yeah, I want to follow up with you, Jennifer, and actually address this idea that you touched upon. It's the international lending institutions at the same time. There was concerns about using ESG principles, so a lot of the US capital couldn't be deployed to hydrocarbon projects in Africa or Latin America for natural gas, which many see as a transition fuel. And should they be a little bit more innovative to provide a guarantee for Haiti, the World Bank, the International Monetary Fund, the regional development banks, which were reluctant to deploy to hydrocarbons on Africa until we had a crisis in Russia and Ukraine. So there's a bit of energy hypocrisy at the same time. What are your thoughts? Well, maybe just to start at home, because I think the points I wanted to pick up a little bit on the inclusion piece and the process and the stakeholders. And I mean, Germany has a coal phase out, right? 2030 coal phase out that we're aiming for. And my point is it's all about how you do it. You can do it, but you need to have the leadership there. You have to be inclusive. So we had a coal commission. We brought in the unions, brought in the states, brought in business, brought in the environmental activists, got a recommendation, put it in place. Now you have in what our major coal area was of mining, 18% unemployment a number of years ago. Now it's like the Silicon Saxony with 3,000 new companies, many new jobs in Germany. And that's just one example. So you have to be deliberate about this and how you have a social and I think it's, I think thinking the social and the ecological together, both in our own countries and how we're doing that, taking the lead and making that happen is absolutely critical. And then you have enough credibility, I think, to be working with other countries because we've learned a lot on what's worked and what hasn't worked. We have a flexible grid. We're working on flexibilizing our grid, right? Which is part of our answer to the storage. We have days that we're 100% renewables now in Germany. So I think that's one piece of it. My second comment I wanted to bring in was on the COP because I have a different view. I've been to all the COPs. Just watch your time. We have three minutes left just to... Three minutes of the whole session. Absolutely. We could go for another hour. We could. So I'll make one sentence. I think that we are at a moment where there was a very clear signal that came out of the international community to transition away from fossil fuels and move to renewable energy. I think we know a lot. I think we'd be creative, bring in the different stakeholders, and make it happen. Okay, very good. Kadip, we have limited time here. One thing you wanted to weigh in earlier in our discussions today was having a unified voice for the global south. They all have a priority on getting access to energy here. But how do we make sure they do it as efficiently as possible to the point that we've learned a lot in the global north, making sure that we put the best practices in place? But how do we accelerate their need for energy but to do so as cleanly as possible? I think it came out very clearly that access and availability of the clean source of energy, that is electricity, is essential. And the security is paramount. It's important that people can get the power when they need. Otherwise, all this will become kind of theoretical. And every country will have to devise its own strategies and own ways. There will be remotely located locations which don't require the wire to go that way. And we have done those kinds of things also where we have provided solar solutions. But at the same time, it is essential that we go aggressive on the renewables and go on integrating. As I said, initially, I think we have to deepen the grid and then we have to go on aggressively so I don't have to green the grid. There is no other way. And we will have to, till then, we will have to go on relying almost all sources of energy with the main focus on the transition. So the security first and then the transition next. Good, do you agree with that, Andreas, to wrap us up here or leaving no one behind? Can we do so and give energy access for all that accelerate the space? I think it's almost like a basic human right. So we have to do it. I don't think it's, and can we do it? Absolutely we can do it. Can we do it efficiently? Yes, but it takes, you know, targeting subsidies using the latest technologies. I just want to make a comment. There's a, in the talks is a little bit like the, global north is going to provide all the technology for the global south. Don't count them out. We've developed a lot of technologies in the global south that then we ended up implementing the north because there are scientists there, there are great engineers and there might actually be conditions which are more favorable. So I would say- And they know the local landscape. Yes, so, well actually they've helped us, for example, energy storage. The first large scale energy storage using lithium-ion battery wasn't Chile. And then we've, we're now in I think 40 countries. So it's a two way street. Don't count the creativity of the global south out. Okay, very good. This has been broadcasting around the world live. It'll be available on the websites but we've been out on the top link site for the World Economic Forum. You'll also find it on YouTube and Twitter and we're using the hashtag of WEF24. We'd love to hear your feedback on this very important topic. Our thanks again for the center for energy and materials for convening this discussion with such diversity at the table. Thank you for addressing some of the more sensitive issues politically which you have to navigate in Columbia as well. I'm John Defterius of NYU University in Abu Dhabi. My thanks to this panel and for all the participation here. Thanks very much.