 I'm very pleased to welcome you all for this IIEA webinar and we're very honored today to be joined by Bertie Hearn, former CISOC, who has been generous enough to take time out from his very busy schedule to speak with us. He will provide an address where he'll consider the future of Anglo-Irish relations, something which I think he's particularly well qualified to pronounce, and we know that the context is extremely complicated. The Northern Irish Assembly elections saw a historic shift in public opinion within Northern Ireland with a fractured Unionist vote leading to Sinn Fein becoming the largest party in the Assembly, and additionally the UK Government's announcement of legislation to set aside aspects or indeed very large parts of the Northern Ireland protocol puts further pressure on the relationship between the two Governments and the delays and delays the finding of workable solutions. So the context could not be a better moment for Bertie Hearn to share his thoughts with us. He will speak for about 20 minutes or so and then we'll go to question and answer with our audience. Some housekeeping points, you're pretty familiar with this stuff from Zoom now, but you'll be able to join the discussion using the Q&A function on Zoom, which you should see on your screen, and please feel free to send in your questions throughout the session as they occur to you, and then we will put them to Bertie once he has finished his presentation. You can also participate in the discussion on Twitter using the handle at IIEA. And finally, a reminder that today's presentation and the question and answer are both on the record. I was going to say earlier that Bertie Hearn was a man who really needs no introduction, but that is not going to stop me from providing a very brief introduction, Bertie. He served as the shot from 1997 to 2008, leading free to fall into government on three successive elections in 97, 2002 and 2007. He was first elected to the doll in 1977 for Dublin Finglas, and he went on to represent Dublin Central from 1981 to 2011. Among other roles he previously served as Minister for Labor, Minister for Finance, Minister for Arts and Culture in the Gaelthacht, and Minister for Industry and Commerce. And a defining moment, of course, of his period as Thyshok and in Irish history was the successful negotiation of the Good Friday Agreement between the British and Irish governments and the political parties in Northern Ireland, of which he was one of the major architects. Bertie, over to you please. Thank you very much, David, and thank you for everyone that has joined in on this IIEA webinar. Just to go back, I'm going to hit a few dates just very quickly to take the context of what we've been dealing with over the last six years. Two days short now, six years, 23rd of June 2016, the referendum was held in the United Kingdom to leave the European Union, which won 52-48. And after that, there was three or four months of considerable debate about how the government would present that, which they did in Lancaster House on the 17th of January of 2017, the UK to leave the single market, but not only that, but also to leave the Custom Union, which at that stage, because it had not been an issue in the referendum campaign, whatever, or in the television radio debates, that was a surprise at the time. And then in the intervening period of whether there would be a deal with the EU or not, the government more or less said the British government that no deal would be better than a bad one. So in the 11th of March 2017, Parliament gave power to trigger Article 50, which laid out the process of leaving. And on the 29th of March, when that was triggered in the vote, and of course, then there was an election held very quickly at the race of May, which you did not need to have, but she wanted a mandate as they prepared to leave the European Union. But that election did not go particularly well, and they lost a majority at the Tory government. Then a few months passed without much happening in 22nd of September 2017, the British government in the Florence speech laid out what Brexit would cost and what price to leave. And then in December, there was the significant progress, which was what the EU said was the position that they required to leave. That was passed just at that Christmas time. And the backstop was part of that deal. And the backstop, of course, was again to deal with the Northern Ireland and the border situation, and the fact that we were the border into the single market and the European border. So as we went into 2018, that bill that gave you leave to leave became law. And in the following month, the Cabinet agreed the future relationship white paper, which again, of course, dealt with the issue of the backstop. And then Sir David Davies resigned who was the Brexit Secretary and Boris followed them within a few days. So that led to all those debates in the Commons where three times or four, the UK government, Theresa May's government, failed to get the proposals passed. So within months, unfortunately, she was gone and her government were gone. Boris Johnson came in and the discussions continued on. The backstop moved the talks between the Tisha Den, Neo Radke and Boris in November of 2020 or 2019. And that led to the protocol coming into existence. And of course, the importance of that was that straight away there was an election and Boris with the protocol on board and the protocol when before the people it was passed. So we've spent now the last few years really since that period arguing over the protocol. The protocol let us just for a moment dwell on it. It's an integral part of what the European Union, United Kingdom withdrawal agreement is result of four years very difficult negotiations, mainly at official level, but also at ministerial level. And there were compromises on all sides and the protocol safeguarded the Good Friday agreement, including ensuring no hard border on the island of Ireland. It protected the single market and Ireland's place in it. And as I said, the British government brought an election on that. So they had a mandate for that agreement. The protocol came into operation in January 2021. And difficulties in relation to its implementation have really been ongoing since that date. It wasn't long that it was in till the difficulties started. And that has led right up to the difficulties of recent days. It has also badly damaged the EU-UK relationship, not to mind the Irish-UK relationship. The UK unilateral actions in March of last year led to the commission beginning infringement proceedings, which were then stalled and have now been reenacted again in the last number of days. Nevertheless, by the end of June last year, the EU agreed to a UK request to extend a grace period related to chilled meats and made clear its commitment to ensure the continuity of medicine supplies from Great Britain, which was the big issue at this time last year in Northern Ireland. The UK government July command paper, which was set out by Lord Frost, sought substantial revisions of the protocol, ending checks on Great Britain and Northern Ireland movements and not proceeding to Ireland, ending the European Court of Justice justification on the operation of EU law in Northern Ireland, and allowing EU-UK market regulation in Northern Ireland, ending the protocol state aid provision. These are all issues that arose at that command paper and are now in the legislation of last week. And while rejecting moves to renegotiating the text, the EU, Marcus Wojcowicz has continued to engage with the UK in an effort to find creative solutions for issues affecting people on the ground in Northern Ireland. And last September, the European Commission vice president paid a very well-received visit to Northern Ireland, where he engaged for several days with political business and civic representatives, particularly focusing on hearing directly the concerns that citizens and business had with Brexit, had with the protocol. I think the Commission developed a package of proposals to ease implementation of the protocol based on the back of those meetings and presented those on the 13th of October last. Unfortunately, David, there's been very little negotiations since then, and just on the eve of, and I think it's very important to just to look back on this now, on the eve of those EU proposals on the 12th of October, Lord Frost stated that the UK had shared legal texts on an amended protocol with the Commission. He also outlined his expectation for short, intensive EU-UK talks in coming weeks and signalling the willingness to use Article 16 in early November if talks did not achieve resolution. He had cited an increase in cross-border trade on the island of Ireland as another UK protocol concerned, as well as highlighting the oversight role of the ECJ as a red line. The Commission had been clear that the ECJ's role cannot be revisited, but they had also said that they were prepared to negotiate. I think it's very important, I think, now to look back on what Lord Frost had said at that stage, because I think most of his proposals from the command paper to that speech that he made in October are really reflected in the bill of last week. There is some talk over the last week that these were new issues, but I think it has been, I mention it because it has been clear that this has effectively been the British government's agenda since the protocol was actually negotiated in the first place. And my evidence is the facts that I've outlined, it's neither hearsay or dreamt up by me or others. The only sustainable way to deal with issues relating to the protocol is through the structures provided in the withdrawal agreement. I would have taught any negotiators or competent negotiators would agree with that. And the proposals both forward by the Commission, I think it is a view represents a real opportunity for Northern Ireland and require serious and constructive engagement from the UK. I think any unilateral action as we have seen last year, we've seen it on at least one occasion or two occasions, once with the agreement of the European Union in retrospect, and again last week on the legislation could create only further instability and be deeply unhelpful in building the relationships and trust and partnership that is central to the implementation of the protocol. And not just with this country, but with the European Union, which was set out in the agreements that the UK and the EU had entered into from discussions in 2018-2019. The UK's international reputation as a trustworthy partner is also an issue. And in Northern Ireland, Brexit continues to exasperate political tensions within the executive in various stages. Last September, North-South cooperation ceased, which effectively means there has been no operational of the Good Friday Agreement since late last summer. On the first few days of February, unfortunately the executive ceased all together. It now looks as if that could be a prolonged period of suspension yet again after what happened in the earlier period. So at the same time, I think it is clear that many in Northern Ireland, particularly in the business community, want the protocol to work well and see the benefits of it. They see that this is a help to them. The protocol presents real opportunities for Northern Ireland due to access to both the single market and 450 million people in the rest of the UK or the internal market. A course survey showed that two-thirds of businesses in Northern Ireland see the opportunities in the realities of being in the single market and the opportunities of being able to trade with the UK, trade with the Republic, trade with the rest of the EU. But it has created stability and there's no doubt about that. The European Commission proposals on the protocol on Northern Ireland just to briefly touch on some of them because they're still at the heart of some of the discussions. The European Commission's package of proposals, they put in place innovative and durable solutions to the issues raised by citizens and businesses in Northern Ireland. They dealt with a number of the key issues, not going to go through them all, but many of the contentious issues of a year ago were dealt with in those October proposals. The SPS issues, the Commission proposed a bespoke Northern Ireland-Pacific solution offering a simplification of the processes for a broad range of retail goods for sale to end customers in shops in Northern Ireland and those measures could remove up to 80% of the identity and physical SPS checks for such goods and it would also follow the substantial reductions in paperwork for qualifying mixed loads with documentation covering each relevant vehicle rather than each set of goods within the vehicle. That again I think was a legitimate argument of Northern Ireland business people and in fairness to the EU they dealt with that. On customs, the Commission proposed expanding the scope, the beneficiaries and products covers and benefits of the protocols goods and that were not at risk of entering the EU concept and I think this could reduce the required customs processes by by half and I think in the latest paper by the Commission, which was published last week one of the two papers published by the Commission, they spelled out precisely how that would work and I think that's been well covered in national media and of course the other contentious item of last year which I was involved in some of the meetings with business people in the North and specifically there's on medicines, the Commission papers note the intention to amend EU laws so that regulatory functions can continue to be performed in Great Britain on behalf of Northern Ireland and meaning relevant companies would not have to establish new capacity infrastructure regulatory functions in the EU or Northern Ireland and wholesalers can continue to supply Great Britain for Northern Ireland and Great Britain can continue acting as a hope for the supply of generic medicines that's been implemented there's hardly a word about that now so I think David there's been a significant progress along along the way by the European Union and yes I think it is fair to say on balance that there are still some outstanding issues there are some issues where veterinary and a professional veterinary individual is necessary to do checks and there are some areas that would not require a renegotiation of the protocol to deal with but from my reading of it and not to give a bias view but but it seems to me that the EU have clearly given since last October and in the papers of under two documents of last week that they're prepared to deal with these issues there are issues in the protocol where they've said they can't negotiate and they're all familiar issues I think we know them there's the state aid one there's the issues of the European Committee of Justice the Court of Justice and there's some tax clauses where they've said that these are within the protocol and they won't negotiate the protocol but I think it is an unfair statement to say that the EU have not been prepared to be flexible and they have outlined that very clearly where they're prepared to be flexible the difficulty and as somebody said the other day was the vice president said let's call a spade a spade and the reality is that the negotiations since October have been little or none and Lord Frost left on the 18th of December and his trust took up the position there was a meeting in February there's been very little meeting since so that has led to the unfortunate position where the Irish government in recent days have said and I just want to quote the UK government's intention to table legislation to unilaterally dis-apply elements of protocol is deeply disappointing and threats to break international agreements and international law cannot achieve sustainable solutions and only serve to undermine a trust and partnership that Ishaq has made clear in his words unilateral action to set aside a solemn agreement would be deeply damaging it would be a historic low point signaling a disregard for essential principles of law so it has all been extraordinary negative and my understanding is that at official level a parliamentary level a ministerial level and it heads of state level Boris and and the Taoiseach UK Prime Minister and the Taoiseach that relationships are poor that's probably no stronger than that and I think this is this is very disappointing over the last 30 35 years now since John Major and Albert Reynolds and followed on and in my time with Tony Blair and Gordon Brown and followed on again by David Cameron and Theresa May who was I think they should be noted and I would like to say was very helpful and really lost her job in the end because she stuck by and in agreement that was made and lost her position and and lost her majority on that position so I think this is the these are the difficult periods I don't want to to go on outside my 20 minutes David but I think we are in a position now where the atmosphere is toxic I do believe that the only way I spent my career dealing with negotiations difficult and otherwise I do think in all negotiations it is possible to find the solutions I never believe things are or impossible but it takes two sides to negotiate it takes the European Union and the UK in this instance it certainly takes I think leadership by the top to do this the legislation of last week which this applies nearly the entire protocol is very unhelpful to that I had been saying up until last week's legislation that people have to sit down and try and get back to a position what the protocol was meant to do to make sure we know land border in the island of Ireland but also to remove the concept of a sea border I think that language was always on unhelpful particularly to unionists and loyalist people and we have to endeavour to find solutions to keep trade moving between the UK and northern Ireland I think there's a there's an argument for that I know Jeffrey Donaldson has particularly highlighted that aspect of the agreement and I understand his concerns on that and checking goods from the UK including northern Ireland must be checked by EU food standards I don't think it's possible to have June regulatory systems why or how could the European Union be dealing with trade deals all over the world and then not be following EU standards of health and I recall that it was an Irish commissioner David Byrne who was in put in place to try to regulate high food standards and it is in the interests of every European citizen including northern Ireland and if not the rest of the UK that we have high food standards for all our health safeties and so these are issues but my view is you still have to go back to the negotiating table if you were to get to a position that the bill is passed and that there's no checks at all and coming into northern Ireland that is a position that isn't sustainable by the European Union and that would raise the question of what happens to single market in northern Ireland that would become an inevitable question and then the argument is where the checks done for the Republic of Ireland are they done in ports in Europe are they and if there's no land border where does that go and that would ultimately raise the question of the single market in the Republic so all these things are slippery slopes and I don't think any of them are necessary I think the the fundamental position is that the UK and the EU should get back to the negotiating table and try to resolve their differences the green and red lines seem to be something that should be explored further and I think the vice president who even though he's had to go which he's he's had to deal with several secretaries of state or several secretaries for Brexit and he fully understands the issues on all sides I do not think he's in any way partisan I think he's genuinely trying to find solutions and I think it is good that we have somebody in the EU side who is so familiar with the arguments on all sides including Unionist, loyalist, Republicans, nationalist business people to try and resolve these issues and I do feel that Jeffrey Donaldson is somebody who will not want to indefinitely see the institutions down he is a supporter of the peace process and the institutions that we're fighting between so there we have a day but I you know I'm an optimist by nature I'm a negotiator by profession and I do believe that we don't have to hit the doomsday and hopefully we can get back to a negotiating table but it does require leadership by everybody to do that