 Okay. So welcome everybody. I'm Tom from Synthesis Group and myself and Naveen will be facilitating the dialogue with Ragu today. So we have some people online and the people online can join by putting their hand up on their Zoom call and Devin will let us know and then we bring the manners as we can. So we're going to use a fishbowl process and there was a little bit of confusion last time round about what's meant by a fishbowl process. So we will just give you our definition for now. So there's six seats here at the front and if somebody wants to speak to ask a question or to make a comment please come to one of the seats. It's not exclusively that we'll be asking Ragu to answer all questions. We'll have some interaction between people in the fishbowl seats. We're asking people to limit their contributions to two and a half minutes, max three minutes and to give everybody a chance to talk including those online. And again I will try and manage the interaction if a lot of interactions happen between people on the fishbowl and if it's going on a little bit I might have to ask people to pause it because we're time limited. We're going to finish at 6.30 sharp today. We went on as long as I took last time but today it's 6.30 sharp. Okay so I'd like to, anything I forgot there? So I'd like to invite anyone. You should remind people that two and a half to three minutes is the length of a love song. The length of what? Most pop songs especially love songs are usually two and a half to three minutes long. So quite a long time. Okay I don't have a watch so I'll sing a love song silently when people are speaking. That's right. Okay so I'd like to invite whoever wants to kick off to take the front seat and do we have a, yeah okay, space for up to six. So I am Paulette. I am in Auroville for the past 37 years but I come from the Cherubindo Ashram and this is what makes the whole difference. So I came originally to work at Matrimandir construction and I can tell you that if you had this kind of experience and with those people what is going around now is absolutely monstrous. In brief, as long as I was at the Ashram, I was at Bakhti. I was introduced to some of the greatest early sadaks and in fact all my work is inspired by Nolini Cantagutta whom Cherubindo declared the third one on the way to the Supermine and the one Ubo Best Mastery's Teachings. But I was doing nothing of this at the Ashram. I was only reading Cherubindo Sonnets and Mother's Prayers and doing Rainflower Collage and writing poems and wiping dishes at the dining room and doing touching up at the mother's photographs for the Ashram press. Then I moved to Auroville because the wounds with the Cherubindo Society was still quite strong. It was not the matter of the Ashram but some Aurovillians were mistaking the Cherubindo Society with the Ashram so I felt I should bring a disconnection. It worked very well. Now the Ashram, in fact, are supporting us to the point that my last book, which is the 31 of the series, is now not only on sale like my other book with the Ashram publisher, Sabda, but is directly in the Sabda window given by the Samadhi and it was put like this on Cherubindo City Day so I had the surprise when I went for the Ashram. Anyhow, I realized that as long as I was at the Ashram, they were all these fantastic Sadakian scholars so I could afford the luxury of being just a Bhakti. But when I moved to Auroville, the situation was quite tough because the fight with the Cherubindo Society was not yet over. The condition, the living condition was still terrible and I chose myself to go living even worse than a pioneer. So I lived for 14 years in the green belt in a hut. I had no bathroom. My bathroom was a cement slab along the canyon and at the same time I started doing research. So right now I published 13 books of which three on Auroville during the mother lifetime and the other nine on yoga and Advaita Vedanta also. And I started with the Center of Human Unity, which was together with the Laboratory of Evolution and the purpose of the Center of Human Unity instituted by Kiri Joshi, funded by the government of India, was to bring to the community the original vision undiluted and censored of the mother on Matrimandir, the town, the guidelines. So this is the work I've been doing for the past 37 years. Our compilations and our mood doesn't help, you know, it's three minutes now. So you could so I'll be very fast. The fact is that I feel like the, you know, the people touching the elephants and say, this is the elephant and none of them touch the elephant because no one is aware any longer of what are mother guidelines, what is the real galaxy. And so there is no way it doesn't matter who wins who lose because anyhow, nobody has this knowledge because we were cut off from that. So now you cannot even throw out the people because it's not even their fault. Nobody told them anything. So it's the last thing I'm going to say so the admission form of the mother to be signed by the mother. First of all, you have to work a minimum of six hours a day. You could not be really are going way over the time now. I'm sorry. I am sorry. You understand that you are talking of something which has nothing to do with the matter. I'm just facilitating here and kind of the rulekeeper. And I'm just the rules we established was to try and keep it to three minutes. I'm really interested in what you're saying, but we have to give space to everybody. Yeah, anyhow, the last things is that there were no fees. You understand that this change is absolutely everything. Everybody was accepted right away by the mother herself provided the people work. And if they had no money, they were taken in charge immediately. Thank you for that. Yeah, thank you. Dom, maybe we should ask the same person to speak a little more because I think what she said was a little truncated. And, you know, coherent idea hasn't come through. Can you say that again, Raghu? I didn't hear you clearly. Pardon? Can you just repeat what you said, Raghu? I said, maybe the person who spoke, I didn't get her name. Paulette. If you can give her a little more time. There were a few points she made, but I don't think it was tied together. So I couldn't really make out what was being said. I don't know if others got what she was saying. So I'm just suggesting, can you give her a little more time? So let's... Okay, Paulette, do you want to continue then? Yeah. Two more minutes. So you should know that as long as the mother was alive and the Cherubindo Society was running the show, the guidelines were implemented. So there were no money asked to exceed. People had to support themselves one year, but if they could not and work proficiently, they were taken in charge right away. When I joined Auroville in 85, in the middle of the world with the Cherubindo Society, this position was maintained. So I didn't pay anything to be accepted. And the other thing, because there is a... And this kept the archive and I have an original, the admission form to be signed by the mother. This is what I'm talking now. Another essential condition was that if you were taken in charge by Auroville, of course, those conditions, then you had to surrender whatever you had. So there were no pensions, there were no rents, there were no flats. And the other thing, you have to work every day. So there were no summer holidays like now. So the moment they have abolished the guidelines of the mother, they've killed Auroville. And they've been fighting for the past 37 years. And what I'm telling you, now I already told the secretary. In fact, it was the first meeting, another thing you should know, that the secretary doesn't know that there are other positions because she kept meeting the same people, either one camper or the forest group. She doesn't know anything about the other people. And she's prevented from meeting people because I met her personally twice alone, telling her names of things happening. But the third time when I was ready to tell her everything, I was no longer alone. But the other things I told the secretary and she knows and they show up with the original master plan of the galaxy. Can you imagine that the ATDC had never seen the original? I had two copies, I gave one, because this is the condition. There is no knowledge whatsoever of what was happening with the mother. So the secretary didn't know that in the galaxy, as well in the master plan, the residence has to leave the single in 30 square meters. You understand that this makes all the difference to live in 30 square meters. And then there are absolutely no cars, not one single car. So you understand that it makes no sense to keep discussing what we are discussing now, because whatever they discuss says nothing to do with what the mother said. And what I told you, I was part of the center of human unity for five years. It was the government who was paying. I came up with several compilations, all details, and the compilations were distributed for free to the whole community along with the news. So the community at that time was in form. And moreover, they lived that way. Thank you. So my prayer is to go back finally the admission form of the mother. And this is the last thing I'm going to say. So there was this admission form, but there was also the discussion going on. So in fact, the mother signed three policies. And before coming with these three policies, there is a statement with the key statement. So it was the administrative committee of our with the chair appointed. And they came up with this conclusion that no rules are needed in our will clear no rules provided the people lived according to the guidelines and the many messages that the mother had given and nothing else was needed. And then they conclude saying it is the mother who will decide who is an oral villain. So far there are no oral villains. This was in 1971. Do you want to say anything, Gregor? No, I'm just listening. So I would like to invite you ever wants to come to the front to share. Okay, we have somebody online. Hello. I would just like to say I was a member of the community since 1969. And mother had said very clearly that there are no rules. And as long as there are no rules, there is hope. She had welcomed all people of good will toward to Orville. And she asked us to live together with good will toward all good will from all. And I don't think that she wanted to make a rule of 20 square meters of 15 square meters or 500 square meters. I never saw that because she was giving us permission to build here there and everywhere. She was she wanted something else here. She wanted an evolutionary consciousness. She wanted us to learn how to live and work together. And I think the community has actually done a great job. So I'm very happy to be here in Orville. Thank you. We need to have more voices. Sure, that's also part of it. I'm sure there's also room for bigger houses with gardens and people have different processes and different needs. But I'm sure that's also part of it. The 30 square meter. I'm sure that there are many people who are ready to live like that. It's not a so it should not be pushed away. It should be developed also. I don't know why we meet here today. I'm not sure. Are we just expressing ourselves or anything? I've been invited here in case people want to comment about what I had said earlier or take it forward in some way. That's my understanding. So I'm not necessarily going to be engaging in a conversation with you in a sense because I've said what I've had to say. So if it's a discussion amongst you, I'm quite happy to listen. If there's something you want me to clarify or part what I've said, I can do that. Okay. So I have many things to say, of course, like everybody. I have just one little feeling I would like to put out there. And that is a very large part of my surroundings are very, I don't understand. I would like to understand. But I feel that people are very addicted to emotional reactions. I see it as an addiction. I see every time this spiral comes and wipes out all forms of dialogue and discussion. It just keeps coming back all the time. And I know that there are many people out there who do not have that. And I thought we were talking last time about that, also that healing process. I don't get it. I don't understand why people are still so in that emotional vortex. I don't understand it. Really. Yeah, come, please sit. If anybody wants to speak, just take a seat there. My name is Dandira. And I mean, it's, I wanted to say something else, but maybe just shortly to Hans, I think people are afraid. They don't trust anymore anybody. So also like dialogue, many people are suspecting any kind of manipulation, anything. So they just don't feel safe. And so a lot of agitation is happening out of that. But what I really, I'm interested in is because I'm really appreciating how you put it together, the Mahabharata and the spiral dynamic aspects. And for me, you give actually, Madame Secretary's place in the clockwork in the blue meme. I would like to understand this point a bit more, because for me, like Mother was saying, we have our own governance. So actually, what role does the foundation act play? What role does the RA play? And where do you see the dream? The Oroville dream and the Oroville charter. So it's certainly more in Christian realm than in the blue meme. So I wonder how all this works together. And I also can see that we were kind of very weak in putting our legislative order. So we had a big mess. I see that was the reason why actually the government could step in. But now we need to have a balance because for me, it's not actually only that the government has the role to play. And if they have to play the role, they also, for me, it's the functional way. So not the dysfunctional way. I see a lot of dysfunctional way because otherwise the people wouldn't be so scared. So only when I have a dysfunctional blue meme, people are scared. So what we ask here, we are scared to voice our opinion and everything. So I would love that you say something to that. See, I think we're talking about the same thing. I'm not saying, in my understanding, I don't think you're ready for a dialogue. I think there is some work to be done before a dialogue can happen. And I'm suggesting one part of what needs to be done. One part of what needs to be done is the healing. There are other parts also that need to fall in place. And I think if I understand you right, which I've stated clearly, there are three groups of people who seem to have a say as a group in what's going on. And I don't see these three groups have a shared criteria for what they're saying. They don't seem to have a clearly shared and understood way in which they look at each other's responsibilities. And on the whole, what we call is the clockwork space has huge gaps, which will, which allows all kinds of incursions to take place at the physical level, at the governance level, at every level of horrible. Now, unless you can come together with convergence on some of these things, I don't see how you can go forward. And this will be the steady state. This what is happening now will get repeated again and again in different forms. So, in my understanding, what's happening now is triggered by certain events, but those triggers are not as important as where the responses are coming from. That is permanent, not the trigger. That is permanent, not the trigger. I mean, the stats is already for a dialogue of foreign healing, even a healing, we kind of need to feel this safe space. So, if you if you give the responsibility of the blue mean towards Madam Secretary, so we have to have some feeling that this is actually executed in a functional way. I'm not saying that I'm totally agreeing with this position from her, but if this is given for the time being, so it would be great if this would be executed in a more harmonious way that we have the foundation of going into a healing process in something. But this is that means again, the visa issues, everything should be solved. I mean, we should just feel safe here. And for me, it's not really working to put us in three different categories because for me, it's just if we label ourselves, we put the division in us. So, we need to overcome it. We need to see the people in each other and seeing and there are friends everywhere in each positioning. And I can really say I'm not agreeing to certain action points, but that's different. So, I'm not agreeing to certain action points from all sides, well, mainly from all sides. I spoke too long. So, I understand that I understand that. And that's, I think we're seeing the same thing. Thank you. Thank you, Raju, for being with us again. This is B here. You may remember we had some good chats. I just want to, Sundar is right. What you're saying is also right, except I wouldn't go for the three groups. There's only one operative group that's happening now. And that's the group of the foundation office. So, Jayanti group is effectively on the ground doing aggressive acts every single day. So, if Sandeira calls that an unsafe environment or anybody's in fear and everything, we got to get over that in my view. It's not, there's no, that's not a place to go. The place to go is we need the communication. We need the understanding from that side what's happening. So, out on the road today, you know, they dug another hole. Everybody's driving by these things every single day. And it's a mess. So, that kind of aggravation creates a climate in which nobody really wants to talk to each other and somehow how to break that stalemate. So, I think it's going to continue for a while until it gets into a deeper ditch. And then something will happen. Right now, as you said, and as most people have said, Hans is, you know, what Hans said, you know, he doesn't understand why it's happening. I understand because nothing is happening from, let's say, the other two groups that you mentioned. It's only happening. The only operative group is the foundation office. And they're calling the shots and everybody else has to live with it. So, this is what has to change. And this is not going to change. I don't see very soon. I sometimes would like to know every day aggressive acts. And that's what I mean when you talk about a hole in the ground, being so terrible, a road, a crown road being built, being so terrible. And all the time negative and all the time, oh my, what are they doing now? Oh, it's so muddy. Yeah, that's what I mean about emotional kind of spiral blackmail all the time. We have to stop doing that. How about not being opposed to how about rather, I don't know how to call it, but join in, I don't know. Might be handy to have a manager of some sorts who can maybe put some organization in the groups. Maybe the work you're doing is more needed in these groups than with us because anyway, we're going to be a mess anyway. The public is not, we are full of opinions. And yeah, better get the house in order with mother's guidelines and the groups and maybe you need a manager to do that. But people are not able to, they're all stuck in their trenches and everything is terrible and everything is bad and like that. I'm quite nervous actually, I don't know if I'm sorry for the back to the people in the room. I have a question for Ragu, so it's just a right place to watch too. So last time you mentioned that you wrote an email to the governing board, I guess to understand what is the next step from their side. Did you get any reply? And if so, what was the reply? I couldn't hear you clearly. See, I come closer to the computer and it's better. I was asking if you got any reply from the governing board to whom you sent an email. I guess I imagine to ask for any follow-up to your presentation. Yeah, yeah, yeah. I've got, I've got. What Dana wants to do is to see if we can create a group of 20, 25 people who are interested in looking at what healing means. Yeah, so what I've suggested, what I've suggested as something, some process that we start to support what you've already done in the dream weaving process. I just tentatively called it the heart weaving and Dana was happy with it. In fact, she actually came up with the final name. So she's coming here mid-December and she would like to see if there's a small group of people interested in looking at how healing can happen. So Dana is an international advisory council. Take it forward from there is what my understanding is. Yeah. So this person is the chairman of the international advisory council. The IAC. Yeah, so a governing board, did you get any reply from them? I think she has spoken to the governing board and whatever. She spoke to me a few days back and said, you know, this is what's the latest. Okay. No, because you see again, I look in the room and I see only faces of people from not so many, maybe one, not so many from those who closely supported the secretary and the governing board. So it seems to me, as I mentioned the last time as well, that there is not so much intention to find solutions or healing even. But okay. Thank you. And I had a question from Synthesis, the group. What's next in your mind? So maybe Tom, you can answer. So I heard now that there is this intention of creating a group of 2025, maybe in December. But before December is around the corner, we are in December. But what do you want to do soon? Is it only that a limited group of people? How do you select them? What is your next step? We don't have a plan. My understanding, just the Synthesis group is a very informal group of people. It kind of changes. Never get the same meat, just explaining for everybody to meet every Thursday in Matrimandu Gardens. And I don't think you've ever had the same configuration of people. So it's not a group that really speaks with one voice. So it's an informal group just trying to hold a space for Synthesis. And when this initiative came, Ragu was invited to Orival and Devon was acting as the interface. We decided to support this process and see where it went. So we don't have a roadmap for it, to be honest with you. The Council came on, we had a meeting on Thursday and a couple of members of the Council came and invited us to meet next week to discuss what might be next steps. There's no plan. For me, I can just speak personally. I don't really feel qualified to speak on behalf of an informal group. It's a bit tricky. With me personally, I stand for healing and deep dialogue since well before I ever came across this. And as you know, I've made some attempts in this area. So I'm tentatively supporting anything that will foster dialogue. But I know that's kind of woolly and it's not very specific. I'm hoping that at my most optimistic viewpoint or wish would be that something would come out of this, that there might be an energy that people would feel, okay, we can get behind something. I mean, there would be have to, but I don't know. So I was kind of hopeful for this meeting that people kind of almost check out Ragu, ask him some tough questions. That's what I would challenge him. See, you know, find out. That's what I would be hoping personally and make your own decision. So I have some more points if I may. Why challenge me? We have to challenge the whole context. Yes, Giovanni. So we heard, I think from Sandeera, this request of having a safe space. I think Jan, what's your name? Jan Hans. Hans saying we are too much into the emotion. So I won't be in the emotional side, but I want to just say a few things. So I have a friend whose name is Peter. So he's German. He's 81, 80 soon. Anyway, he's old. He's old. And he was waiting for months and months in Germany to get his visa. And he couldn't get it. And then suddenly he received an email from the working committee of the governing board, the group last time I said, the Unreal. And this email was saying simply, because you don't work for the community, and because you don't live in Oroville long enough, then you can apply for a tourist visa. So these guys met the man. These guys was one of the pioneers. He spent all his life here. He had a house. He gave away his house because it was too big. So he went leaving in a smaller place as respecting the criteria Paulette was mentioning. And then suddenly he can't get back to Oroville. So this is crazy. And I think it's crazy as well as what happened to another friend, Sat Prem, who is an architect very well known in India. And suddenly the secretary, Jayanti, sent an email to the office in charge of issuing visa. He was applying for another entry because he used the two entries he has for his visa or three. He wanted another entry. And what was in this communication? Something she got from the working committee, the Unreal. So again, it's unbelievable. So she wrote to the office in Chennai that he's the Sat Prem involved in anti-governmental activities. Now, I think everyone in this room knows it's unbelievable. It's unbelievable. Not that the secretary wrote that, because the working committee is a real group. How on earth you can write this? How on earth? Oh my God, this just is unreal as they are. So these are two points. Another point, we have this exercise of the ROR update. It's taking ages. They got, I think, five deadlines. Now, I was in the business. When you give a deadline, it's one deadline. Okay, you can extend a second time. They gave five deadlines. It's a joke. It's a joke. So maybe six. I don't even count them. So you know why they do this? Because without the updating of the ROR, the resident assembly cannot vote. So I have to imagine now that the only reason why they're taking so long is this, because otherwise it doesn't make sense. What is completely an efficiency pattern? And I'll show you another example. It's my last. So I live here since some years. And I'm not formally an Orvillean. Maybe people don't know. I'm only a confirmed Orvillean, because after the newcomer process, you have to meet the secretary. That is a formality. It used to be a formality. And then only then you are included in the ROR. You know, I was taking this to have this meeting after one year and a half, I'm still waiting for 10 minutes of Jayanti. Now I asked her in person two times because I met her in my capacity as RIS member few times. I sent two emails, which were never replied. So again, in efficiency, totally in efficiency, you sent an email to an office. They don't reply, not even unknowing the email. Just black hole, as I said, the ones in a post on our own. So black hole. And it's not only me. I went to the entry service and discovered I had to insist. I asked the one time via email, no reply, three times. Finally, I went to the office and a poor lady had to admit, you know, how many people are waiting for this meeting? 150. More than 150 newcomers are only confirmed Orvilleans are still not Orvilleans, because they have to meet the secretary. 150 people. She wants to bring 3,000 people in one year or 50,000 people soon in a few years. There's still 150 Orvilleans who are not the real Orvilleans because they have to meet the secretary. So Jayanti, if you hear me, please just have this 100 people meeting because it's not taking so much of your time. Now, Giovanni, maybe you could just pause for a minute and come back later because yes, then it was coming to the more constructive part. Well, there was an extractive but I will I will stay here. You can come back in a couple of minutes. Can I just make a comment here? See, Giovanni, when I listen to you people now, I just don't know what to say because I understand your despair fully. But the place that I mean the role that I've been asked to play is to try and understand the context and make some suggestions. That's what I'm doing. I'm hoping I've captured the underlying dynamics accurately. And if I have done that, then I have some possibility of doing something. If I haven't captured the dynamics, then in any case, I can't do anything. So that's where I am. And I hope you appreciate that because I really hear this despair and I understand what it must be like if somebody has put all their life into something and then they find that for no real meaningful reason that's under threat. And I've worked with many people in this context, not just in Auroville and other places too. Yeah. And I've been close to that in my life a couple of times. Okay. So it's not just an intellectual understanding and I know the feeling. Hans, maybe Hans, maybe you could pass the microphone. Yeah, I'll just do one minute because one second I'm done. I think the suffering with the entry process, like Paulette also mentioned, has been terrible the last 25 years that I'm here. Really awful, much worse than I hear now, really. We have been suffering. People have been suffering incredibly. It's such a falsehood, the whole entry process, like so many aspects. And I just like to suggest one thing for our process to move on is really to try to surgically remove the idea of sides. There are no sides, actually. There's action taken and you seem to be a very professional person. Maybe you go in there and work with that and get in. And the process of coming closer should happen there in the offices where work needs to be done. It's no use to throw stones and there are no sides. It's a really very important thing to say. You have to be done with it. There are no sides. There's only one side that's Auroville. My name is Daniel. I was here in two times. The first time was 44 years ago, but I left and came back 20 years ago. So going back to what he says about the anti, the anti was always like this a little bit. It took me when I came back, I was returning Auroville and at 11, at 11.15, I was newcomer. No, at 11, I paid for my house and at 11.15, I was newcomer and at 11.30, I was tourist because you don't come in Auroville for your comfort. That's what there is. So it's going back. So he has been always like this. It took me four years of tourist to become Aurovillean again. So it's not new. So if you look here, you don't see many locals, actually one or two, and working one and the other one is Resident Assembly Service, the one, I don't know why is here, but it's mostly white people. And this is one issue here, that as soon as you get a little bit farther from the concrete problems of money or land or business debt, then you have a white attendance. And this I regret. One thing that also I regret is that I feel that the last year, he went from an international town to an anti-national town. And the world international was coming closer and closer to anti-national. And this I feel every day like this. And maybe is one thing that has to be solved is maybe one of the root of the problem. So is can a nationalistic government admit an international town? To me, yes. But it demands another level of consciousness. So this is an appeal to that. I asked one of the members of the new groups, you think that Oroville is an international town? He answered me, yes. But I want more people from Kulapalayam. So Kulapalayam being the village next to. So are we going to an Indian town? All your reference in your thing are Hindu. I come from a Kabbalistic background. And they can be not only Hindu reference, in Oroville is the world. So it's more, I hope we will stay international. Now, I've used two references. One is called a Mithihasa Purana. And if you want to call it Hindu, I can't stop you. But the other is drawn from some version of spiral dynamics that we worked on. So I guess I've used international resources. Hi, my name is Elisa. I think I'm talking to you. I'm talking to the synthesis group. I'm talking to us as a community. I'm talking to Jayanti Ravi. I do feel that it is allowed for us as Oroville as a collective body to be in crisis. And I do feel that we are in an inflamed body right now on some levels, on some levels. My way of perceiving the reality is like there's a French pastry called the Milfeuille is a thousand leaves. So it's like many dimensions. And on one dimension, I would resonate with what Hans was saying. And there's no two side. I really resonate with that. And on another dimension, there are two sides. And we cannot, for me, we cannot also, we need to address that. And on this dimension, I'm clear also where I stand on my principle. It's not person related. It's principle related. Like I've heard many people in Oroville stand for. When I heard your presentation, I felt that, how to say, so yes, for me, there is a crisis of governance with conflictual dynamics. But there is a crisis in the sense that for me, the dynamics that you were mentioning about some residents you met were received by me and by others as if you were labeling some dynamics from residents which are alive, like victimism or demonizing or I don't have everything in mind, but which are alive. But somehow for me, this came on from one side, basically it was one sided. It didn't feel that and I'm not saying you shall distribute blame for everyone, not at all. But if we go into the content of dynamics, then we shall give different colors of dynamics. Because that's where, for me, I can feel right now that as Sandira was saying, we need to feel safe. Yeah, for me, I need to trust. I need to trust that the way forward is held in a way that is truly not taking these what you observed and making a label out of it. And I'm not saying you're doing it, but I've heard, you know, when it was talked about the demonization, yes, I've heard some people doing that. I'm not doing that. I believe I'm not, but I've heard that. And yet, are we demonizing the demonization? You know, it's like for me, can we stand in a way that is more, either we see dynamic in both directions, or we stand away from the dynamics, or from the sides of residents. I don't know if I'm clear, but for me, I've heard, yeah, that I've heard that, and which I've heard also some residents in meetings mentioning and voicing the lack of trust of your own neutrality of your own stand, that you can hold all the bodies in a way that is truly holding with openness and trust and trusting that there is a possible way forward. Because there are really serious concerns as you can hear. We have very serious concerns, many of us have many serious concerns. And I do feel that, yeah, I don't know how healing can come when certain things are not addressed and when also some actions are still being taken on. So I'm wondering how to build trust on a way forward, and how to hold the whole with all its bodies. And yeah, I think, yeah, I have many thoughts, but not one to express, but this is what I wanted to say. I understand what you're saying. And I heard, you know, the demonization from whatever sides or whatever, I heard listing of rights and wrongs from what I believe are both sides, whatever, because I saw one set of people talking, listing out, you know, like public prosecution, ABCDE, somebody else saying ABCDE. So if I've come through in the talk as being one sided, I'm sorry, I don't, I don't, you know, experience it that way, but I don't know. Maybe, you know, maybe your perception is right. I don't know. Cyril, I'm here since five years in Europe. I'm here, sorry. I'm Cyril. I'm here since five years in Uroville. And I would like also to speak about the, to share my concern about the the problem of governance and the lack of safe space to express ourselves. I, I've been participating in the, and to speak with my friends, I've been participating in this vote process that from the resident assembly, from our governance, governance body, democratic body. And I've been witnessing that we have to write our names and the built-in, put the votes, built-in of votes in some box, which are totally sealed. And the counting of the voting is totally private and no witness at all by anyone. So I've been sharing this concern to the appropriate body. And I've been received like with no trust and no safe space at all. And the low thing at me, deeply, and, and explaining me somehow, but it's in purpose, that it's done like this. So I have some, so I've been to a resident assembly service. I've been to Uroville Council. They suggest me to send after explaining me why it is like this, justifying it. They asked me to send an email saying this request because I said it's totally undemocratic and you cannot say to save our democratic process if this is totally not democratic. And I have no answer. It's three months. So I'm very sad to do this, like this here. But I mean, I like Uroville Resident Assembly to be true and to be democratic. And so I think the minimum is confidentiality and anonymity and trust and allowing everyone to express himself without putting your name and without anonymity. I mean, it's the basic of democracy. I feel from what I've been experiencing in my country and what I have seen in other countries. So I want to share this and that's all. David, do we have anybody on the internet who wants to speak? No? No, I mean, we don't have anybody wanting to speak. Okay. Paulette, Aurelio is just, can you give maybe Aurelio a chance? We're just trying to hear as many voices and it'll come back. My name is Aurelio. I had met you before. It's clear that there are many concerns and many issues out there and crisis is actually very potent space. It holds a great potential actually for transformation. And I wanted to, I think Aurelio was always very good in crisis momentum. You know, when we had the cyclone, when we had the tsunami, when we had fires and all of that, I felt that the community was acting in a very grounded way. And there is, of course, there's lots of things coming up in the crisis. Each one is faced with their own dilemma and the shadows are all visible. To stay pragmatic, I wanted to actually ask you when you mentioned before, we are far away from actually from the possibility of dialogue. And in the same context, actually, there's this proposal from the International Advisory Council member actually to look into the possibility of healing. So I wanted to ask you what, from your perspective, the ground condition for deeper dialogue. And because in a therapeutic field, we have very much, there is conditions for healing to happen. Safe space has been mentioned many times, a field of trust and established trust, willingness actually to look at the shadows, to recognize that healing is needed. And as it was mentioned, maybe there's a big part of the community says, yes, we need healing, but maybe another part, which is actually imposing many adverse actions, we don't know even if they see the necessity of healing, because there's a righteousness there also. So my question is actually, what, from your perspective, are the conditions for deep dialogue? And if this wants to happen in the middle of December, talking about healing, could we actually prepare some of the conditions, some of the ground rules? See, where I am, all that I'm setting out and what I've told Dana is that we have a group of 20, 25 people who want to come together and explore. I'm willing to work with them. Do I know exactly how it's going to turn out right now? I don't. Do I agree with you that the situation is grim? It's more than worse than grim? Yes, I agree with you. Do I have the power to go and tell Jainthi whether she should give visas or not? I don't. I don't even know if IAC has that power. I'm not even part of any of these structures. Right? I've been invited to do my best. I'm offering something. And if there aren't 20, 25 people who wish to do this, there's nothing for me to do. Simple. So if there are some people, we will sit together and figure out what to do. Yeah, I think my confidence comes from that something can be done. Where my confidence comes from is when I've worked with the Tamil Nadu government, for example, on water management and things like that. I've worked with village realities, which are as difficult or more difficult than Auroville. I've worked with Dalit communities under very difficult conditions. And when a few people sit together and start looking at themselves, some energy gets created and there is hope. Right? There's nothing more that I'm offering. Nothing less that I'm offering. That's it. So if we don't have that set of people, good for me. I don't have to travel all the way for four days and take time off from my other work. But if there is an opportunity, if there is a hope, I'm willing to put in my effort to see what happens. I think it's very important to look actually at the ground rules for it because we recently made a survey. There's something like 120 therapists in Auroville working. So there's no problem of finding 25 people who are interested in healing and process work and all of that. The question is actually, what would be the condition community wide actually to make this as an effective exercise? Because it's no use if all the therapists come together and speak about healing, which is their profession, basically. They know it. It's about those people who are basically in, let's say, if we look at Auroville as an organism. And can we see ourselves as this organism, as this totality of it, with its different organs, its different functions, its different modalities and layers. And if we recognize together that something needs to be done, something is out of balance, can those organics, I'm saying, for instance, if the liver is not working, yeah, and one part of the body is basically, or one part of the being is, no, my liver is all fine, no problem. I keep on drinking, I keep on smoking and stuff. Everything is fine. I'm going my way. And I have the divine impetus of doing so. So it needs a recognition of the organism. Yes, there is a problem, and we want to work on it together. I think what we're really facing and had been mentioned before that even here in this room, there's all people who are interested in dialogue, interested in the process of it. But there is also another section of the community, maybe in relationship with the authorities, who are just in this righteous position of being called to do those adverse actions. And then healing is not possible. You cannot want part of the being says, yes, I'm going, I'm giving myself into this process now. And then other parts as forget it, you know, I don't need any healing. So that's why I'm asking you, what would be ground rules? What are the conditions which was asked several times actually already this evening? What are the conditions like this to be effective? See, if you ask me theoretically, what are the conditions, we can speak about it. But if you're asking me practically, can I create those conditions for you? I can't. That's the reality now. Right. And many of the things you're talking about are things that happen when I'm when many people can see themselves like cells of an organism. If there are bits and pieces and people are seeing themselves like bits and pieces, it is not an organism, it's a set of bacteria or virus or something like that. Right. So like I said last time, do I know exactly what what has got to be done? No, I don't know. And I don't anybody knows. Okay. So yeah, pushing it to me and saying, do you know, doesn't help. Because I'm saying this clearly, are there 15, 20 people? Can we sit down and figure out what is possible? If you don't need me, I don't have to be there. Okay. So if you have 120 people, please go ahead and start. You don't need me. That's fine. If you need me, I'll come. And we just have to start from where the reality is. And then build from there. That's my understanding of any of these situations. Because if we ask for and we keep waiting for conditions, they're not going to happen. Yeah, it was not so much about conditions. It was about how this is suggested ground rules actually to make it happen. Because I think so that we can set ground rules who will make it happen. Well, I think actually, because there's a concrete proposal for December, and I thought actually, if this is out, then people can actually prepare it and then be prepared when the proposal comes and when the possibility is there, that actually, I think we are quite good in being constructive, right? Now there is lots of disorientation and stuff. But we, I think there's a big section of the committee which wants to be constructive and actually further the process. I'll suggest this. I'll speak to Dana again this evening and say, what are we going to do about this? Right? And see what we can do. Yeah, but you know, maybe on this particular thing, I'm exactly like where most of you are. I really don't have a role. At least you people are residents. You have a role. I don't even have a role out here. I'm a guest and I'm speaking from the guest position. It's the only way whatever work I've done has ever worked. And anybody here who's been in this position knows it. If I'm speaking the truth and the truth has some resonance, something will happen. If I'm speaking the truth and there's no resonance, nothing will happen. And if what I'm speaking is not broadly truthful anyway, nothing will happen. Most of the places I've been to, I've succeeded by just being as honest as I can, as being open as I can, and taking things forward. That's the best I can do. I don't know anything else. Okay, so then let's hope that truth prevails. Absolutely. What else can we hope for, no? One minute. I just wanted to connect. So I, in your previous presentation, you raised a lot of issues of my personal concern. And one is where you talk about the importance of knowledge and technology. So I am one of the person who called back Roger, and all my research was on official discussion on how to build the galaxy. And finally, in 1971, there was a letter from the United Nations, which so far I've not published, nobody knows, except the chairman. So this is one issue. But a major issue, which is now what we are debating, is when you discuss about the shadow. And it's very sorry that nobody's mentioning this. But there is a lagoon in what you mentioned. So I am a Jungian. I published, in fact, my most popular book has been published four times. It's the mother on psychology, but there is an appendix of 150 pages dealing with the shadow. And the evil persona. So the evil persona is a term that Cherubindo borrows from Jung. And it was a major ashramite, the one in charge of letters of yoga, who submitted to Cherubindo this text from Jung. And Cherubindo replied, that interests me a lot. Because it's my experience that as soon as the Sadak start doing something serious, either this opposing being is there or he manifests immediately after and this force the Sadak to do exactly the opposite. So I've been hammering this community for the past 37 years with this text. And this is one thing is the evil persona. And it goes together with what you have not mentioned, the projection of the shadow. And this is exactly where we are. So if we want to heal, there is no other way but to go through that. And so what you see these two major camps, but then there are also the intermediate camps or the single individuals, nobody is doing this work of meeting the shadow. And Jung and the mother are very clear and Cherubindo, you have to do. And another connection between Jung and Cherubindo and the mother, they talk on the psychic being and you talk on the self. It is the role of the self for Jung or the psychic being for the mother and Cherubindo to do the work on the shadow. So as long as the people individually don't do the work on the shadow, they will go on projecting on the others. And the mother even said, if you don't know what is your shadow, just look what most upset you and other people. When you cannibalize, you terrify people. That is your own shadow. Then it turns collective. And when it was collective, you have war, nazism, genocide, all exactly what's happening now. So we go back to the guidelines and also the town. Nobody here is doing what the mother asked in terms of guidelines, in terms of town, in terms of sadhana, because there is no sadhana if you don't use the psychic being to work on the shadow. Then you have exactly what's happening now. So I'm one of the few people here who is not terrified. I'm very calm. I think that in fact, this is what the mother calls the Mark Ali blow. It's falling on our head. Are we willing to do the work or not? I agree with you. Yes, I feel so valuable what you say always. But as soon as you say, nobody is, no one is, then people shut down, you know, it's a pity because you have a great heart and there's a lot to say and it's very wise and good. But nobody is, nobody is, it implies certain things. You have to be a bit to pity. Don't use nobody is. I try myself my best. I wanted to mention the ground rules. I had suddenly a kind of idea that our crisis is actually one of decision making process. That's our real crisis or the lack thereof and everything that comes from that. We don't know what to do as a collective, no, except we should be following mother's guidelines. So I had this thing. One of the ground rules could be that this wonderful process could be for people who are interested in governance. It should involve only like the groups and those people who wish and of course from all the sides also, including the ones that are now in the groups, who some of them I really recognize. So I don't have this sides issue. But I feel that could be something we really need because that's where the crisis is. I mean, the crisis has always been amongst us and in us because we don't follow the guidelines and we don't get behind building the city. I believe this is part of the big part of the problem that we don't get behind like Aurelio saying the tsunami or the matrimonier. And this is why she gave this project so we can all work and stop talking endlessly. And I think we are just missing that wonderful opportunity. So I thought maybe your wonderful process needs to be done with people who feel open to do the work of governance in all the different groups on all sides. And people have a call. I know that the call is not enough because you have to be clear enough from your inner self that you will go through that. And I thought that could be the ground rules because all the conflicts we have on all levels will be represented by that. The amount of people you propose will represent all our problems. It will all be there. And for them to look at it and go through it, go through the process and also have some form of governance. It doesn't have to be perfect, but at least thank you. Actually, I forgot there's one ground rule I had suggested. Yeah. The ground rule I had suggested was that whenever you quote the mother or Sri Aurobindo, you also say how you're understanding it and you're interpreting it so it can become the starting point of a dialogue. Yeah, I had put down one rule. Okay, I agree. But at the same time, for me, when somebody quotes mother, there is no issue because I hear the words and that brings me into that space. Don't forget that that's also an element of it. It's great to have her words come out. I don't have a problem with that. But okay. Yes, I understand what you mean. It's how we use it. So that's me again. So before I was more focusing on the destructive part now, I want to focus on the constructive. And I have three dreams. So, Girobindo had one, Girobindo had five, Martin Luther King one in between. So one is, one is, I guess, an easy one for me to realize even soon. So you were proposing, you listed some solutions. One was to find a common project, start with something that everybody can agree on. And that's an idea I already shared and I want to reshare again, building a resident assembly pavilion. I call it pavilion just because we have many pavilions, but this wouldn't be a parliament. It wouldn't be a place to vote because I know there is a discussion about the governance and what the resident assembly should do and shouldn't do, but a place to meet for the residents. And we are, so there is sometimes confusion. People think foundation is the secretary of the governing board. We are all foundation. Foundation is us and resident assembly is also all of us. People in the other working groups supported by the governing board, they are resident assembly as well. And let's build this place. I think it's easy. This can be a common project. That's the easiest thing. The second one is, I think once these groups start to talk, they might be as a solution that I'm offering. I see Sauron, I see Shankadevi from two different sides, couldn't quote, merging these two different working groups because we can't have two working committees. We cannot have two of FMC. We cannot have two of everything. So maybe you take the best out of it and you agree which are the members of this new refined, refounded working committee, FMC, etc. And then you ask the resident assembly to ratify it because of course this has to be done according to the process. And then you start fresh, you start new. That's a little bit more difficult. And the third one is really unrealistic, but I like it. So I think the Orville Foundation Act is not the right act. I don't think foundation is the right body to govern Orville. Orville has to be a place nobody owns, no state owns. And now we have this influence of our nationalistic state, which has put a lot of pressure in this community. And as to start from the government of India, of course, I'm not saying to do a revolution, not at all, not at all. But I think someone was mentioning it should be another state of consciousness where you want to really embrace this project which UNESCO supports, make it something new. There is no place on earth which states say, don't belong to me. Yes, it's in India or it can be Bangladesh. It can be in Italy. It doesn't matter. Don't belong to anybody. It belongs to humanity. This is so revolutionary. Why Sadrim? But very far away, I get from a realization, but still let me nourish this dream and sharing my dreams. But that's what makes it worthwhile, no? Yes. My name is Shivaya. And I have simply what I understood is an invitation from Ragu, an invitation in humbleness. That's some people who actually have already or have maybe even, maybe not, but I have an experience. I have experiences where to be together really humble and just call from an inner call and find somehow call for first steps. And in this richness of aspiration, it will be indicated and really look what are stepping stones because what you bring is all that's already projects, you see. But where can we start with healing? Because the very first step is of a totally different kind. It's not a mental idea how, yes, later we could then find the both groups or different sides or whatever and see how we come through. But this will have to emerge from a healthy ground. And this healthy ground has to be built, subtly built first. Healing and many things. I don't know. You see, I really hear on the no, not no. Just a reminder that if we go into a process, let's say of the collective and the groups that do this process, then we must get rid of everything because the residence assembly is also not innocent, as was said by somebody today. I don't know if you heard that, but no trust, believe me, the last 20 years. Where is the trust amongst all these groups and all this? The residence assembly for me from the very beginning, it was like a strange and it's full of twisted things. So we would have to start fresh completely because, yeah, I come back to my idea of the governing groups and all the groups, major groups and people who wish to go through that experience, they could do this process as a representative of the community also. And it would be wonderful because it has to be connected to our governance and to be done with a bit more consciousness rather than democracy. I just want to add what I feel is we have to accept everything that is, this full confusion with all the things and not say this wasn't good and so on. Here we know there were many shortcomings, but it's not the point we have to embrace it and we've to embrace the people, but I mean how do we grow in this embrace? It's not, and then things will come if we have now already think, oh no residence assembly, that has served for something, that was an attempt to do. Let's value this attempt and see the limitations and see the shortcomings. See, I mean that's what I would rather look at the learnings than throw it away. Good, just a last note, Ragu, you called yourself a guest, you're not here by accident, you're a catalyst, I would call you, and your role is extremely significant because it has been initiated from the International Advisory Council and the Governing Board, so certainly you're a bridge and this process that you have, you know, fostered and supported will go somewhere, so I just want to thank you for that. I know it's a huge effort and we'd want to strain your nerves and burn you out with all these stories, but I just want to say that. No, I understand what you're saying, but officially, I mean, right, I am a guest in the sense that I've been invited to do this and if we take the next step then maybe I become a catalyst, I'd love to do that, I've offered it, so I'm waiting for that next step to be accepted. Yeah, it will come, it will come, okay. Yeah, my microphone is gone, so thanks. David, anybody online? Okay, and the time is what about five past six now is it? So we've got 25 minutes more, so just I'd like to invite people who haven't spoken, if they want to, please come and do you want to say something? Just give me a moment, I'll be back. If we don't have any, if we don't have any people jumping up, I'm gonna put pressure on Navient to say something. Yeah. Hi again, I was thinking how wonderful coaching processes are, we know that in Auroville, so that if you have this representative group, you see, you cannot anymore have the opportunist taking the reins, like always has been the case in Auroville, or the vested interest, or the power play, or the habitual, because through that process, we will, the people engaged will slowly come to experience their egos melting and being engaged for Auroville and humanity. This is the great thing that can happen for us, and be so good if it would be connected to governance and all the aspects of governance, that would be, because in that process, I know that you have to let go of your patterns, it's gonna be great for the people who are in it, really. Yeah, because we cannot have opportunities in there anymore. That's why coaching is so great for all the companies or organizations, because you get rid of all the rest of it. That's the hope. I'm sorry, I have to react a little bit. Hi, it's not very good. Yes, hello. I want to react a little bit because I have spent eight years working in different groups, from housing services to FMC or anything, and I have seen very hardworking people with very little opportunistic possibilities. So I feel a little bit sorry that we get pictured as being total dysfunctional. I've seen people working very, very, very hard. Yeah, so Hans, can I speak now? No, no, I have the center, and I would like to speak also, because I have been working very hard with a lot of people who worked very hard, who were respecting their mandate, who were respecting the rules that were given in that time. So I don't feel comfortable with having, I don't feel comfortable with people saying that we have been only making a big mess and we didn't respect any rules in the time that I was working there. Many people were concretely constructing guidelines, bringing it back to the community, having it approved, and for many, many ways, people have expected, have respected some kind of common authority. It was not perfect, because if somebody, the few individuals didn't want to respect it, there was no way of acting on kind of saying, okay, you don't do it, then what could you do? There was very little, there was no punishment or not, not any consequences for people that want, they didn't want to follow the common, common guidelines. I still feel there was a lot of, there is still a lot of very good guidelines and mandates created by the community. And the whole idea, but what I was, was, I reacted to was saying that people don't respect authority. I didn't, I didn't have that experience. There were a few individuals that were not respecting authority, special guidelines that were created by the whole community, but they were accepted. And again, brought by, I mean, maybe 35 years in sitting in groups of endlessly discussing new groups of organization, new ways of how to do it. He did try it years and years and years and years. And so far, maybe we are not, we were not complete and we were not, we are not finalized. But what I experienced now of having a total authoritarian kind of form in, and with people that I know from before, that were not following any rules before, they were, they I have, for my impression, a lot of lack of integrity. Now I feel, now I have a problem because how can I feel trust? How can I feel comfortable with this kind of authority? I'm not having problems with authority if people are really doing their best to do the right thing, but I have, I have a problem now. What can I do? And I'm really willing to talk and I've been before taking contact with people for so cold from the other side. And what I get back is like, I'm not talking to you because I only want to talk to people who think like me. And I said, yeah, but how can we ever become a human unity in this way? And I come here for a city, but a city with love. I come from a city that was bombed down in the war. And my parents told me, we have to build a better city. We have to build a human unity. This war should never happen again. So this is my instruction for all my life. But I'm sorry, we didn't have the money or we didn't have the means between us to build the city. But I think it's nothing to do actually anymore with the city. I have a feeling, I have a doubt. Is it still about the city? I have a doubt about it. It's about authority now. So I'm willing to talk and I'm willing to open my heart and I'm willing to come together. I'm even willing to trust. I'm willing to experiment. And I'm willing to take even the next step. But I, you know, to have the present realities where everything could be online, my house, my children, my life. I'm here 43 years. I cannot go back to my country anymore. So what is my future? I want to co-create my future. But in this thing of human unity with everybody, also anybody. Okay, that's all what I want to say. Yeah, it's me again, Sandhira. I think we tried a lot of things in the past and it didn't work out and we were blocking each other and we kind of tried to find the solution on the level which we are used to act in the whole world. So what I right now with this wake up call see that there are people who are investing to try to look solutions from an higher level of consciousness which is actually represented in the Arjuna in the yellow second tier meme. And I kind of want to say that there are people here in Ottawa who are now looking from a higher level. For example, there is a group of collective organization who are really diving deep into the charter and the or will dream and looking from a deep. What did mother say for organization and so on and just really wanted to find solutions on a much deeper level. But parallel, we need to look at the shadow sides in the first year because we are that was actually why individuals who are in the other country, but collectively we are coming back and having our arrows in the first year. So we need to look at the shadows and we need to transform and see that we have like a healthy form that we have a functional form of each. And we need to really identify where is the shadow and where is the healthy form of each each meme so that we can really move forward in the second tier. So I think we need to have people who are willing to look at all this and we have people who now looking in the second tier how an organization could happen. And also there are a meditation group like from Kira Yoshi like speaking out of silence having 20 minutes silence first just a lot of attempts I think it was a deep wake up call and we just need to move this forward and I'm kind of I don't it's happening. But it's it's happening without this healing process which you are suggesting and but for this healing process we would need the other the other side which I'm hesitant to call it in this way but we need to find a way where we start to have a dialogue or an healing or whatsoever. But there is a great openness for many people to work on a different level now and I think we just need to take the chance and move it forward that or will it becomes what it's supposed to become. Yeah there's just one thing I would like to add to what you're saying. See when you have a you know when you have a structure already when you have all these processes going on already you need to build something like a scaffolding through which a transformation can happen. Otherwise there's a great fear that whatever there is will fall right and that is terrible if what is coming in is just as you know whatever dysfunctional and unacceptable then if there's just a clash between these two you destroy without creating anything right. So what is the scaffolding what's the middle structure which can hold these two that's really what I'm talking about as the healing process right. So more than this if you ask me how is it going to happen I don't know I know this is what's going to be done I know it happened in other places so it has to it can only happen with the wisdom of everybody in the system it cannot happen from an external theory because the worst thing that can happen now is anything theoretical right what can happen is something that emerges from your wisdom right. I trust the process and I think you play a role in this whole thing what is happening so that's one part and there are many parts but we need to see that we are bringing everything together in in alignment. Just giving a time notification as well just over 10 minutes to go and we're going to finish sharp at 6.30 so did you hear me Raghur? Let's say you have a group 25 people and that does not include all the others if you have a group of 25 people it will not include all the others and the only benefit we will have as a community if this group goes through this process actually goes into the decision-making process I want to seal it now because there are literally thousands of people who will not participate in that process so how you know. But Hans I can't mandate any of this right so let's hope that you know there's enough people who come forward who can help that's it I'm willing to start from wherever it is possible and there's only one step that one can see I mean that's what yoga says also now yoga says there's only one step that you can see you cannot see the whole road so what's the next step I'm just saying that creating at least you know I mean there's been a lot of work done on this now 1% somehow has an impact on a large group right so at 25 it's just 1% of your of your total numbers so let's see if there's a 1% who would like to start and what happens there and build on that that's that's the only thing I can see right now I actually can't see anything more than that right and even the stuff that Giovanni mentioned that I suggested you know why don't you take one or two projects and all that that's you know not that I'm suggesting the projects but I know that shadows can be worked with only if you work together on something shadows cannot be worked with in theory shadows come up only when you and I are working on something I think you agree with me you think I agree with you and then we discover that we actually don't agree and why we don't agree is all the stuff no projection and all of that right that'll only happen if you and I are engaged on something together it'll never happen otherwise and then you don't work with it theoretically you sit and actually work with it with your heart if you can and I personally don't think sadhana is an individual thing I would like to I would like to first state I'm a bit emotional and slightly louder hello can you hear me yes okay I'm a bit emotional today a bit nervous as well I would like to speak in Tamil first because that makes me feel comfortable and then I can also translate yeah so I would like to maybe address maybe someone here who knows I know Navin knows Tamil and it is easy for me to face Navin I can't speak Tamil okay so yeah so like how can I trust in the situations in the situations and the trust if I now but I don't speak from I don't even talk about it. Like, don't label me. He talks about GBFMs. When I talk about it, there are many people who have come from the other side. No one has come from the GB side. I don't want to say that I have come. I don't have that. So, I don't need to label it. I'm just sharing. Now, how do I feel? There is a collateral damage on all sides. And the damage, if we can't rectify it, we can't ask justices about what I did, about the problems I faced. I'll tell you later. If I do that, I think both sides will list a lot like that. Rather than that, without talking about it, can we say that one person will say that work is love made visible? When we work together, it becomes clear that trust has to be earned. We cannot demand trust on both sides. Either from the... I don't want to even name those as two sides. But still, on all sides, trust cannot be demanded. It has to be earned. How can we do that? We have to come forward and say, these are the common points. We can have disagreements. There may be disagreements. All the disagreements, can we not have one or two places where we say, both of us will agree and work together. You know about me. I know about you. I'll show you this. I'll show you another project. That's what I want to do. Even if I'm in the position of GBFMC, I don't have... In many aspects, I feel from the community side, from many people's side, I have lost trust. So I have to earn that as well. I have to earn that. It's not saying that I'm in GBFMC, it doesn't mean that the governing body has to do with trust. They are also going to look at me, what is Shankar doing, what he is meant to do. They are all looking at me. They are looking at me from the community side. Shankar is sitting there. Why is he sitting there? There is no trust in all aspects. I can't go and say, okay, Naveen, you know me well. I can't keep my trust. I can't demand it as well. So, we'll look at my work. We'll work together. From there, we'll look at trust. We'll look at trust. I don't feel also comfortable translating, but Naveen, can you summarize it? Let me try. All the key things, English translating, all the key life. Let me try to summarize. So from what I hear Shankar saying is that there is a lot of labelling that's happening and he doesn't want to get sucked into that. And when Giovanni asked, hardly see anybody from the GB side, he didn't feel like putting his hand up because he doesn't really feel such labels really help. But the crux of what he was saying is that there is a lot of hurts and incursions on both sides and there's a trust that's been lost on both sides or multiple issues. And there is a lot of trust that can be, we're caught up in demanding trust from each other. But he feels, he's saying on all sides, not just both sides, but he says trust has to be earned and not demanded. And how can we earn it? He's perhaps when he quoted Khalil Gibran where he says, Khalil Gibran apparently says, love is work made visible. Work is love made visible. Okay. Yeah. So work is love made visible. So can we truly come and collaborate and build trust through our collaboration rather than demanding it out of each other because once we start demanding it, there's no end to it. Yeah. Instead, can we earn it from each other instead of demanding it from each other? And he says he's, I mean, his heart and hand is open. Yeah. Let's collaborate and earn on each other's trust. No, there's one more thing he said which is very important, which is that if I stand here and you stand here and say, you heal my hurts first or you make up for your stuff first and I keep saying you make up first. There's no end to this process. Yeah. In a sense, that's what I'm saying also in mind. The thing I'm saying, once you take stands like that, you cannot move to your aspirational space. That kind of summarizes both all my points. Sorry. I couldn't express myself directly in English, but it was a very heavy moment for me. Yeah. Yes. Yeah. Thank you. Thank you Shankar. Raghu, I may quickly also share the community as well. So in terms of really asked one of the ground, I like to say conditions more than ground rules. And if I hear you write is and this is something I felt it will become very, very, very important. And I think there's an excellent list that we're able to draw in terms of what the other side has not done and has messed up and we have excellent lists. But what I hear very little of is owning up to how have I contributed to the situation? Yeah. How have I contributed to this conflict? Now I think everybody in the last 54 years was probably even spent a few days in our role. We all have a role. We all have a role to play in co-creating what this child is today. Yeah. But a very little owning up of so one of the ground conditions I feel perhaps is important is for those two that that one person that comes together is to probably look at to be self-reflective and ask how have I contributed to this or how, how am I a part of this larger? So I would consider that as a ground condition. I wouldn't state that as a ground rule. Okay. Can this set of people come together and create the condition where that is possible? Okay. That's a very difficult thing to do. Okay. So at one percent or whoever comes together has to be willing to say, how do we create conditions where I can stand up and say, this is how I was part of the problem. This is my grief. Beautiful. These two are not owned up. Grief will always be anger and projection on the other. Grief always turns into anger and rage. It's not owned up and work through. And I actually sense even when listening to many people today. I'm seeing so much of grief. Unstated. Many of the voices are coming from grief. Thank you. So I think it's probably time to wrap up now. So what I'm going to propose is we just have a moment of silence. I'd just like to thank everybody. Won't name any names. I'm really sorry. I raised my hand a little bit. Tom, there's one hand up. Neelima or somebody. Yes. I'm speaking. Go ahead. Yeah. So good evening, everybody. And I'm really touched by what is happening. And good evening, Raku. I'll just introduce I'm Neelima. I'm sorry I cannot put on my camera as I'm on a very low bandwidth here. I'm a newcomer. And my newcomer process is coming to an end. And I want to comment on just a few things. One was that this notion of not feeling safe. As a newcomer and I've been visiting Oroville for over 13 years. But it's only in the last two years that I've been here consistently and entered the process. I was given yesterday a notice by the housing saying leave. Evacate the house in X number of days because the newcomer house needs to be given away. And I approach the seniors in the community saying, this is where I am. I'm here with two children. And I've been told to vacate the house and go and stay in a guest house in the high tourist season to find the chief guest house. What I'm trying to say is everyone knows what I'm talking about. I feel as unsafe being here. And I meet senior people and people tell me, when I talk to them, because I've been working with integral education, been open to the works of mother insurance, and it's actually the philosophy that brought me to Oroville. When I say at the end of the day that, you know, for me, if I don't find a housing, it's mother's verdict for me. And I'm here to do her work. And I totally believe in that. That if I don't stay in Oroville, then I do this work somewhere else. I'm not stuck to this place. The minute I say that, my commitment to Oroville is questioned. Now this is coming to me that feels safe if you trust that. Right. The same person when I'm leaving is talking to me about feeling unsafe. And I'll see a lot of this. And I totally resonate and understand when Hans talks about why are we feeling so unsafe? There's so much of it. One can walk today in Oroville and feel this uncertainty and this unsafe feeling. And I'm saying that in 50 years, why haven't we had a group of people who believe, I've heard stories of people saying that there were foreigners who, when the Indian government went behind them through their passport into the ocean, that no one can touch them. And for me, that was like a heroic story that this is the quality of faith and trust. Okay. I'm sorry. I'm going to interrupt here because I'm holding this to the time. I really want to, I'm sorry about that, but I'm really feel holding to the time is really, really important. So apologies for cutting you short. Okay. No problem. So I am going to propose now some silence, a moment of silence and then finish. Thank you all very, very much.