 Thank you so much for coming This is a this is a topic that we feel is extremely important and Matthias and I have been thinking about it and acting on it for the last year or so and The story that we're about to tell you Prompted us both to create Presentations for different situations based on the same material and we've both done those a few times and And and been relatively well received now we have smashed those two presentations together Barbie and Oppenheimer, right so So so you get 90 minutes of presentation in 45 minutes effectively and the The pragmatic and the angry stuff. That's mostly mine and the visionary hopeful stuff. That's mostly his right And any of you who know me I'm sure that fits Right so Thank you so much for coming to our session. This is where I work Open strategy partners. I've co-founded it with Tracy Evans who's sitting there in pink and we help Digital agencies technical product companies and open source projects Communicate strategically and effectively so that they can communicate connect and grow I work with a genius. She's amazing all the smart ideas in the company are hers Tracy has a deep strategic background in business. I have had several thousand beers with people like you in open source and technology We put that together to be a strategic communications company our very good friend and part-time team member Matthias That's me has transitions in his slides. I Do I'm from outside Oslo and Nora I can press the button to this is cool. I'm currently in New Zealand And I have a wife and two kids and I've been doing type of three since 2003 and I'm in the type of three association board Which is not boring I'm also an open-source evangelist at Toujou and as Jam very well said it I'm also a communication consultant at OSP because they need it And another another thing I'd like to point out about OSP is that we work with Drupal clients with typo 3 clients With Sulu clients. Those are all open-source CMS is we also work with training companies Hosting companies and other technology organizations. We're not now you said type of three I think three times and I can change slide because people are like what is type of three, right? so type of three is very Simply explained it is a PHP based CMS Never heard about that. It is free and open source it is community-driven and It's backed by an association never heard about that either does this sound familiar? Yeah, and it has a long history We're actually 25 years this year. Yeah, what what what does that sound like here? You know Well, if you look Below the surface of type of three it sounds You know, well look at this is Drupal Drupal 10 if you install Drupal 10 you have 54 Dependencies composer dependencies next type of three version 12 came out this year as well has 98 Composer dependencies that isn't really important We do think slightly differently, but We actually have 33 Composer dependencies in common So even though we do things in different ways. We're actually really quite similar still though Yeah, we're similar Type of three slides have too many clicks in them. That's a big difference. Yeah Still though we tend to you know Say that well type of three is better than Drupal or Drupal is better than type of three But That's really not the way we should think we do have those 33 Composer dependencies in common and There are much bigger things in The sky the dark clouds and all of that That actually should lead us to collaborate which we're actually doing. Yeah. Yeah So I like to say that around the turn of the last century two sets of kids were given the same set of Lego bricks and told to solve the web publishing problem and You have very interestingly different and very interestingly the same Solutions with type of three and Drupal so fundamentally we're friends and we're gonna get into that more but One of the biggest themes of this talk is that we need to present a unified front as open source projects and business solutions Before we start competing with each other because the world sees us as open source First and how many times have you been told? I tried open source. It didn't work for me Yeah, I mean I met a guy earlier this year who actually said, you know, I tried open source Once it didn't work Yeah Yeah, that's how people relate to open source. It's a brand right whatever happens in open source If it's good, it's good for everyone if it's bad It's definitely bad for everyone because the proprietary world can say look just look at open source They come to security. Yeah. Yeah, there you go. So so I had a big scare at the beginning of this year that I'm about to reveal and It prompted us to passionately agree that we all as open source practitioners and practitioners and business people need to remember Why and how we're special and remember to tell the world about that because there are always new people assessing technology always people making new technology choices and What we do is genuinely special and genuinely weird and Genuinely a little bit tricky to explain to people who live in the regular economy of scarcity Yes, I mean we actually don't learn about open source in school Open source is a totally new and different way of working and I think we talk a little bit too little about that Right. So in a nutshell, we think that for the last few years We've remembered freedom and we've forgotten about the responsibility part of open source. So since about 2008 Everyone I know in open source has been really busy and we've been founded companies and we've been at a hundred twenty percent capacity And we've been working really hard and we've got government contracts and we've got private sector contracts and we've been doing great successful and we haven't needed We haven't felt that we really needed to talk about it. We got quite complacent, right and Along comes January 31st this year and Somebody sent me this article at an inconvenient time of day so Anyone know govcms in Australia. It's amazing. It's Drupal I was very small part of the team that originally got it going in Australia back in the day It's been through the hands of several service providers. It's wonderful. It's built on Drupal Somebody got the right meeting in 2020 and Essentially convinced someone in the Australian government to ignore the massive infrastructure that they've built on open source and the massive investment that they've made in their own country with their own money and Given contracts to Deloitte and Adobe it worth more than 80 million dollars To create a DXP with personalization, right Even though The govcms already serves a hundred thirty three Departments in the federal government. It fully runs to state governments. It's a fully open source distribution I mean the prices you can win in the buzz buzzword bingo today. Yeah So It turns out Right, not only that but the personalization of the of the DXP that one of the departments Got sold on Was illegal under Australian data privacy and protection laws They were not allowed to do and this is government people who spent as of the beginning of this year 35.6 million Australian dollars on illegal functionality super cool I got super upset Australia has an incredible success story for us as Drupal and open source practitioners So Matias and I concluded that This has been most of us complacent in our success, right? This is good. We've got the work. It doesn't matter Even though the Australian government has been using free and open source software The procurement people aren't aware of what they're using and they they don't they don't know why now It's not their job to know why but I think it's our job To make sure that people know we have to talk about open source. Yeah, it's uh, you know If you what if you what if you phrase it? It seems to me that it's an odd decision to send Australian taxpayer money To an American company for their proprietary software, right when you could invest it in your own country and in your own economy So anyway, let's talk for two minutes about how things used to be how things really used to be Flashback to 2001 and a Microsoft Senior executive called open source an intellectual property destroyer, right and I you know, I can't imagine anything worse for the software business Yeah, so so um so that was fun and we had a lot of fun with this for a long time and and Microsoft now actually does really pretty darn well with open source I have a friend whose job is fully open source full-time with With Microsoft, right? So this is how things were and this is how we were feeling and you know, this is all the But you know As I said, I think we've forgotten what's weird and forgotten what's important about what we do so Matias and I talked this through and We want to run you through what should be a recap for everyone So we're gonna talk about the four freedoms what they mean I'm gonna talk about the consequences and all the job that I used to do is open source evangelists at Acquia And how to close deals and how to sell open source and all that stuff. I want to touch on all that We still need to do it, but it should be familiar to you and then um Matias is Um Matias has some much bigger ideas that that are are stunning and astonishing and beautiful magic and idealism and pink and all of those so So let's get back to the basics for a second, right? We have We have four freedoms and they they have a really fat fantastic value proposition And so now you'll notice from the font and the format of my old slides, right? I'm pulling this out of the archive Right, we're free to use open source for anything Anywhere and forever and no one can take us take it away from us and no one can change the price on us Awesome, and we're all free to open it up and we're free to understand if we think it's secure And if it'll do what we Need it to do we're free to ask our friends or service providers for help to change it and make it Exactly what we need it to be that's awesome And not only that when we've created the perfect solution to whatever our challenges in our industry and vertical We can build a business on that. We can give it all away. We can Give it to the community These are our four freedoms. It's love basically, right now. This is where um, there's a very interesting podcast called open source utopia and it's very very short episodes and they have titles like open source is love and What's the magic wizard one? Oh? There's lots of magic in them actually right there Only two and a half minutes long So if you have a very short way to your office, which most of us have when we have home office This is what you can listen. Oh, this is for your Matias created it during the pandemic for the pandemic commute from the toilet to the desk Yeah, so open source utopia is utterly fascinating and when Matias showed me the scripts that he was developing and I was very Flattered that you ask for my input on them. I said Amazing because he thinks about open source in ways that I never had and it was a really it was a growing experience for me because I I Didn't want to impose my perspectives on it. I really wanted to learn and so anyway open source utopia is super weird and Really really really interesting and we're gonna touch on some of those themes in a bit so We have freedom Right so and the classic freedoms are free as in beer, right? You can have it and it's free as in speech. You can use it for whatever you want. Okay now You also have freedom of choice. You can do anything you want with it However, there's an interesting wrinkle here. Yeah, you know the story of the gingerbread boy So, you know, you have these two parents who really really want a kid and they can't Have it for some reason. Maybe they don't know how maybe it's some other thing limiting them But anyway, they what they do is that they make a gingerbread boy put it in the oven and once it's finished they open the oven and He pops out and he says hi. I'm here and he runs out the door and he meets lots of cool people and That's basically what happens to an open source project You know somebody makes it and then they open source it and if they're lucky somebody picks it up and does Whatever they want with it. Yeah, isn't that cool? Everyone can do whatever they want with it Everyone else is also free to do whatever they want with it, right? And then my favorite conceptually is Open source is free as in puppy, right? Here is a free puppy. Isn't it cute and wonderful? Doesn't it wag its tail just like you need? But you have to feed it and water it and love it and take care of it, right? And so the same thing with the gingerbread boy. He actually gets eaten by the fox in the end So there is something more to open source than just this dancing around being free, right? So we feel that when we take we feel that when we take on all this cool free stuff that tens of thousands of our friends have Made for us over the last 20 25 years. It comes with Responsibility Freedom comes with responsibility and and that's why we have all sorts of organizations and communities and customs around us So that was the four freedoms the core of of our practices in thinking I want to jump through three or four quick examples of how We pitch open source as a business choice not as a moral choice as purely pragmatic It makes good sense to do this because you get more money more efficiently do more things whatever your mission is so We open source we've radically changed the economics of infrastructure and return on investment and cost structures and the potential value of information Right and and we've done this in a bunch of ways We've let people build their own perfect solutions and pass them on right um, we've allowed people to spend their money different ways, so Given these four freedoms an early and powerful Story That is probably obvious to all of us in this room But not necessarily and this is what I keep coming back to we need to tell people about this if you have a classic Project with a budget of a hundred. It's an IT project It's gonna be expensive if you're gonna spend a hundred money on IT, right? Build a better project right subtract the license fees or seat costs or something From your Project and all of a sudden maybe you get you know a better color of blue from your design team Or you know you you get it on a better server or you or you train some more staff or you or you do better testing or something You can spend the same money. You can get a better project out of it and You can what's not here And I think is a very powerful story that we come to you also choose where to spend your money Right and you can spend it in your own economy and you don't have to be a cheapskate, right? Right, right? Never sell open source as free to your clients because IT projects cost money, right? Everybody has IT costs and personnel housing over there, but when the license fee is no rupees. I gave this talk in Mumbai You can You can if I just noticed that wow you can invest in your team And you can invest in what you need when you need it because you're you've got thousands of vendors that can help you You've got your own data you built you get what you need when you need it You you don't have to ask Microsoft to please implement a feature, right? And and so you get a Better roadmap of an overall just a better project Little story that my dad used to like to tell I guess he still does You got to own the bricks. I don't want my government spending my tax money on infrastructure that it doesn't own I really Don't like the idea that Oracle or SAP or pick your poison can say hey You've built this entire bit of digital infrastructure, but anywhere else it's not making enough money for us So we're gonna shut it down or Right, but you are lucky because we will let you upgrade to version 2 which we're releasing next year Which doesn't it doesn't quite work the same and cost twice as much, but hey, what choice do you have right? in the restaurant business Classically you want a location where People will walk by and spontaneously walk in and be like oh, yes, I'm gonna have a drink or some nachos or something and Once you're established and people know about it They might come to you as a destination they might call ahead right and make reservations but you want you want to have a great place and When you're renting this place in the in the pedestrian zone of your town and it's going great And you've been there for a year or two and your landlord comes and says you guys are awesome And I love your nachos. You're doing great. Yes. We're doing great. Isn't it great? Yes. I think so. I'm doubling your rent Location is everything. What do you do? So you got to own the bricks right you need to buy the property to put your restaurant in To make that happen so that nobody can double the price or or take the thing away from you, right? This is why For example our governments who should really build their infrastructure on open source very old slide People still ask us if Open source software is secure and we can talk about you know any number of dozens of security experts looking at Drupal and type of 3 and Other systems every day because they're implemented in governments around the world and you could objectively see that the code is secure And lots of people have said it out loud people still ask about this so So there are a few of the of the sort of businessy things that we talk about now Matthias began to really blow my mind when he started talking about Open source adding value beyond this scope. I had thought about this far in different versions So beyond our daily work and business Matthias, please Bring it on. Yeah. Yes. So very often when you have government projects I can stand there and click the button if you want and you can stand on the other side smile, please Generally when you have projects with the government today Depending on what Political flavor is in power. They either say The government should do everything the government should build the software the government should own the software the government should do its own thing Or they say that well the government shouldn't do anything the private sector should do everything the private sector should own everything And the government should just pay for it The interesting thing though is that whichever political flavor it is in power. Both of the solutions are actually proprietary Either the government owns it or the private sector owns it Well, where does open source come in? so We have this amazing thing that happens be you know in the space that's left behind Between government and private sector. It's called civil society civil society is basically another word for community Oh, you might know community from before but What is it actually that happens here? I have a wonderful analogy that I'm gonna run for you this Dear audience is a desert The desert is The example of the monolithic the monoculture the monotechnical in this environment The person with the power is the person with the watering hole, right? You can live pretty happy as long as you have money to pay that guy for your water, right? It's warm. It's dry It's nice. You can sleep anywhere you want but as soon as that guy decides not to give you water you have a problem and what you have as well Is a dependency you're suddenly dependent on somebody else this is an example of open source it shows Collaboration I mean just imagine if it was if all trees here were the same type That would have been a monoculture. It wouldn't have been a lot of freedom there. It would have been all the same But what happens here is actually all of these trees are collaborating all of them are actually Working together to create a world where everyone can exist. It's a type of interdependence It's not a freedom where everyone just does whatever they want, but they're actually dependent upon each other and You know, everyone has Access but everyone also has a responsibility and if you want to do something here You actually have to step up and do it. You can't wait for somebody else to do it for you And in that way you cannot survive without collaboration Here's another picture of sand you've been to the beach, right? Yes, you've been to the beach or you've been to a sand pit or something, you know If you pick up sand in your hand, what happens to it? It just runs between your fingers and It's gone That's how hard it is to deal with sand What do we do if we have a desert and we want to stop it? Any ideas Well Yes, exactly. We plant trees and what happens is that we actually add life We add organic matter between the sand and that holds the sand together Life is an example of community community taking action community Bringing in something that helps us deal with the sand Government actually can play a role in this an active role in getting rid of the desert and creating more life around us and Including community building Jam is going to talk about open source in government now right so Governments Instead of just sending their money to wherever outside of their country Have some really interesting other choices. Um, let's talk about infrastructure first if I'm Government and I have a hundred money to spend on Improving the life of my citizens, right? I think that should be government's fundamental mission Um, I can make some choices. I can decide that Building a bridge across the river at a certain point will allow More tinder dates combining people from either side of the river more deliveries across that bridge and and it'll increase commerce and My population will have better lives because I've spent a hundred money on a bridge. This works. This is a reasonable idea We don't know until we've built the bridge, right and when the money's spent it's spent and we're done a lot of Governments will choose to invest in education or medical care To make the lives of their citizens better I might also choose to invest in vaccinations in another country if I think that improving that country's Situation will help my country and this is a very common international aid Scheme it creates dependencies, right? But it is a legitimate way of that I can choose to spend a hundred money to make the world a better place for my Citizens some governments choose to Spend their hundred money destroying infrastructure in other places. Um, it's Not my way, but it is a way to spend a hundred money to change something Depends on what you think about it. Um, if you spend a hundred money on open source digital infrastructure, um you have this really crazy set of knock-on effects like Every time somebody uses the solution that I built an open-sourced it becomes more valuable, right? If I spent a hundred money on it and a hundred Governments are using it the return on investment is huge and it can be governments all around the world who are using it You look can't actually decide To stop it because it's open source, right, right, so I think this is a I think this is an important and under under understood Choice um some governments get this really right some less so there are a lot of open source has gone under the bridge Yeah, 15 minute. Thank you So there's a beautiful wonderful. I love this example. This is the UK I CT supplier map before the UK digital transformation. What is this 10 15 years ago? Before gov UK. Yeah. Yeah, so these dots You can map them directly onto HP IBM Microsoft and you know, basically London Reading Brighton You know and it's a few players, but it's all it's all the big ones, right? This was the ICT suppliers map and then Some really really brilliant people let some other brilliant people Help and you can check me on the details because it's been a while, but they changed the government IT Procurement processes in several ways and one of them was that they They said that for projects under a hundred Million pounds I think That that there was a BM they would let smaller suppliers register to do to do projects They also said that Given one-to-one feature parity preference would be given to open source solutions Right and they created g-cloud so the mechanisms easily did a few things but they said if there's equal functionality look at the open source solution as well and They did they did a pilot project in a few places trying out these modalities It went very very very well. And so the UK IT supplier map With enabling SMEs like ours and and open source using open source projects the UK supplier map turned into that We don't want that right just And it's amazing because all of the tax money, you know in all of these places Was stayed in in this economy, right? And gave people jobs and gave people opportunities and gave people educational opportunities and bizarrely and As a side note at least five projects went to the European Union. Don't know how that happened But but this is a but this is a great example of of of the Incredible power of oh, I also have too many clicks here Incredible power of open source solutions, right? And and this this this goes on to probably our biggest ideas It was a dark and stormy night When the telephone rang That's hypo three headquarters. We have these kind of old telephones. It's embarrassing, but yes the phone rang we picked up the phone and It was the government of Rwanda and They said dear type of three we had 250 type of three installations Can you help us upgrade them? And we were like Yeah, sure that that's kind of not what the type of three association does but Maybe we should find an agency that we could just give it over to they can go to round Rwanda and they can get rich, right? That's the way things usually work like and You know companies they establish a business in a developing country They earn money and they export all of the money, right? They come with a closed solution. They give them what vendor lock-in, which is a great feature They create financial dependence between that country and the outside, right? That is colonialist and it's exploitative the kind of stuff that it businesses like right well The type of three association chose differently We chose instead to Use our community To create independent local business and expertise that means we talk to our member agencies and they Donated people's time. We paid their travel. They went to Rwanda. They Brought their expertise into existing agencies in Rwanda that could serve their government Their government could pay their local agencies for the job There is a report about it. I also have it in paper version because we're not all online But it was a really amazing project click and this is how it looked People got to learn about open source This is how it looks now They have they're closing in on 300 websites for everything from local government to the president's office built on Four type of three instances That are managed from Rwanda with expertise within Rwanda Money that is paid within Rwanda paid taxes within Rwanda and You know If we were to put this in a newspaper headline, it would look something like this Basically a democratic and not-for-profit open source project You know name any Support sustainable independent local business Right, you can't do that if you're for-profit business doing a close source thing, right Australia Compare and contrast exactly the Australian government is saying no to building Independent democratic structures around public goods saying no to an open source CMS is saying no to local businesses I mean he would do that, you know that that that that what happens is They're actually saying no to building their own country saying no to Democracy saying no to money some civil society organizations got the Nobel Peace Prize in 2022 and part of the citation Was any civil society organization is a training ground for Democracy right and then another quote talking about the specific laureates and this the citation closes together they demonstrate the significance of civil society for peace and Democracy right do you want to be a member of an organization that promotes democracy and peaceful coexistence Become a member of the Drupal Association today. Yes, and the type of three association. Yeah So we so very very briefly Sharon friend of mine awesome runs gov CMS Before gov CMS in Canberra alone there were 350 different CMS is running They they Built a community and a market for their local vendors people are sharing code. They created a government distribution which Anti-government activists also used to protest against the Australian government This is a model of success right when you're empowering your critics to communicate well, too. That's a democracy, right? That's awesome It's not just sad There's not just one person right who can have access to it and this has been running for I'm not even sure at this point 10 or 15 years they estimate that they're saving the government a hundred million dollars a year and They've got you know, they've created this or or I don't know the Australian Drupal community is really vibrant and really awesome And I think it must be in part due to the fact that there's a ton of this going on And it's under people talking about it and a ton of great jobs to be had so Locally led non exploitative and anti-colonial that is what we do, but more importantly what is What how do we calculate? success how do we what's our success indicator in a Civil society organization like the type of three Association or the Drupal Association or any other Foss community well it is Community the growth of our community the participation in our community is How we measure our success the more people who contribute the more countries who have code that they bring into our system the better our system becomes and We can even go between systems and say that well they did something great in Drupal We can use that in type of three as well Wordpress did Gutenberg some people are doing Gutenberg for Drupal as well. That is how open source works. It's really really really great and it's called community So what happens next? I got angry he got inspired We really think all of this information needs to go out in the world and the stories that we've just been telling you We have to remember the responsibility part around our freedoms and Basically the values of open source We know because we have to care for our project. We have to be responsible around our project Just as we have to be responsible citizens the values of open source are the values of a healthy Society if we can't live peacefully together in our community Can we do it in a country? so Democratic values today they are under attack but I Will say that open source strengthens civil society our ability To work together everywhere That is really the strength of open source beyond just the code. We are saving the world We're cross-border international communities of practice Incredibly diverse and Though we should have known better. We haven't always been great at cooperating with each other between projects That is getting better and better Matias is directly part of the inter CMS working group To which I have been a peripheral participant Drupal typo 3 Jumla and wordpress Got together to write an open letter to the European Union about some of the new software laws that look disastrous that will kill open source and it looks like they're actually listening to us and That we might get a seminar and some time to talk with legislature legislators Coming yeah, it's still a question if they're actually listening to us But this is actually coming back to the thing about talking about open source. What does your politicians? Know about open source probably very very very little and their small ad We're going to be running a single track Conference at Fozdem just an hour from here Next February talking about all this stuff all day. So please come up to Fozdem. So at least we hope so we've submitted it But it's yeah, it's now you're suddenly positive and I'm negative. This is very weird So look to wrap up here Foss is special and important and different and we remember we need to remember to tell others and evangelize about this And that if this is a set of pragmatic choices whether you want a local economy or a business with a better economic model It's a pretty it's it's a pretty reasonable thing to look at open source software Wherever it makes sense We should get the Nobel Peace Prize Telling others about how Foss works helps us sell more projects and win new developers and Maybe create some more peace in the world certainly develop local economies and opportunities and lesson exploitation in the world, so Please tell your friends. Please tell your colleagues. Please tell the stories that need to be told Matias and I are also launching a podcast store podcast series To capture all of these anecdotes and stories and talk about them and write about them so that we will all have resources and Hopefully not forget these stories and it'll make it easier to pass this on and you'll have to go back to your office in the city Because you'll have to listen for longer Right, they'll be longer than two and a half minutes now that the pandemic's over. So thank you so much for coming For coming and listening to us. I think we made it just under the wire All right Ricardo has a question. Yeah, this is actually the question microphone. So this is the answer So Okay, you know me I'm all for this Always we even this year in Portugal We organized our Drupal event inside of the free software festival, let's say So but I didn't see in the slides, maybe I missed it we talking about the free software Foundation in Europe right because they have lawyers right and they can be a very interesting at least Ally that you can use and Contribute to back right What is you know, what is the converse did we try to do that that work not You have another one Yeah Because you know these freedoms come from the free software sure. Yes, absolutely back in the 80s Absolutely, and I think There are many ways that we can collaborate with with other Organizations, there are a lot of organizations out there who promote Open source the situation right now in the European Union is a little bit difficult And there are lots of organizations Also open for in Europe, for example are working to try to turn the EU around Regarding the the CRI but what we're seeing is there's a lot of legislation coming up both in Europe and in the US and in the rest of the world and It's characterized very often by a lack of knowledge often what Politicians seem to think is that open source is a charade. It's actually rich multi-billion dollar businesses standing behind it and Let's control them Yeah, and there are there are deep deep difficulties in explaining what is business and what is not business to someone who won't acknowledge That we just give our best ideas to each other. Yeah, so community and collaboration are important But then between the CMS's I think Why we should collaborate well firstly Drew Paul Joomla type of three and WordPress represent more than half of all websites online today Which is a good number to to give out but In the CMS world, we also represent more than just developers. We Represent businesses. We represent project managers. We represent writers We were a lot of different people and that is a strength that we can use in getting the message out and and um, I I feel that Some of what's important is slipping through the cracks the Linux foundation is the Linux foundation the Apache foundation does really good work like giving a home to The deepest geekiest most valuable weird projects, right the electronic frontier foundation does a great Does great work on the freedom of speech side the free software foundation, you know, there's all good work in there we don't have a unified brand and Some concept of talking points or marketing or promoting Look, I don't know. I don't know how many people Apple employees 50,000 500,000. I don't know right, but these big corporations However big they are I Think there are more of us creating and maintaining open-source software, right? So it's not it's not our little two-person shop building websites or something, right? We have 20 years of development behind us in Drupal 25 in in in in typo 3 We're massive. We're underpinning the entire internet and people don't really know that and they think that you're just some how could we trust you? You're not a 50,000 person company, but we don't have that Image or that marketing or that unified, you know, there's something that's not there yet and we are you know Volunteer organizations with relatively limited money. That's why you should become a member of the Drupal Association type of three is this, you know Help fund this work But also one of the reasons why we're collaborating is that we've seen that it doesn't really work there to come and say hi I've got type of three or I've got Drupal We're better than that proprietary system the proprietary system like what happened in Australia can come and say well We do DXP or at least we can write DXP in a month and you can get it, you know They have millions for marketing. They can use that budget to fight open source so the choice that we're encouraging people to promote is Choose open source first Over proprietary there are lots of benefits with open source Then you can look at solutions. What fits your business best? What can solve your solutions? Where's the expertise those kind of things? First right and then in different countries Some systems are more dominant than others Do you need a local service board all those kind of questions can be secondary to the fundamental in in our case the fundamental quality of PHP and the mainline CMS is right and we're not a desert We can look at each other's code. We can be inspired We can share Good question though if you Follow us Well, okay, if you go Fundamentally fundamentally, it's it's it's going to come out under under the open strategy partners umbrella, so Follow us somehow X is such a cesspit right now and it feels gross to open it. I know but Nobody's given me a loose guy invitation. I need to open up a message on the count Threads isn't available in Europe. I mean, oh Follow me on follow us on LinkedIn for that's gonna do it. Yep. Yeah Okay, yeah, great and Yeah, and for open source utopia that's already online so you can search for it and your favorite podcasting platform Let's talk