 Right, welcome back to the Sportsmax zone. For the second consecutive year, President of the World Anti-Doping Agency, Beto LeBankar is in Jamaica for Widers Forum for Caribbean Sports Ministers. Approximately 18 ministers of sport will be in attendance for the two-day forum set to be held on Tuesday, February 16 through to Wednesday, the 17th. In reference to the forum, Jamaica's Minister of Sport Olivia Granger said, We will report on the progress we have made as countries and as a region in implementing the Anti-Doping Action Plan that we discussed at last January's forum, right here in Kingston. Additionally, we will discuss a number of clean sport issues and initiatives, including athlete education, strengthening national anti-doping organizations in the region and the critical process of updating the water code. Well the occasion marks the third year that water will be meeting with sports ministers in the region to discuss ways of strengthening anti-doping mechanisms. The Sportsmax zone is very pleased to welcome President of the World Anti-Doping Agency Beto LeBankar. Welcome. It's a pleasure to be with you. Yes, so you know you've been in Jamaica twice already. The first thing I thought as a trainee is you of course enjoy coming to Jamaica and these conferences are happening here often. Definitely, I enjoy Jamaica. May you are very lucky as Jamaicans. You live in a really beautiful country, a great sporting nation, so it's a pleasure to be here again. Right, really happy to have you. So tomorrow, big conference again. The second one within a couple of months. What's on the agenda, President? Well, it's a very important meeting. We're going to discuss how to strengthen the anti-doping system in the region, together with the ministers responsible for sport from the Caribbean region. This is their responsibility to take care of anti-doping policy in their respective countries. We as a water, we regulate the system, we oversee the system and our duty is to make sure that athletes compete in a level playing field. So this is the goal. We're going to discuss many important things like compliance procedures, how to follow water rules and processes, and you mentioned education. This is the key. We want to educate better athletes. We want to make sure that athletes are well informed about the procedures, how the anti-doping system looks like. So it's going to be tomorrow in the agenda and in the discussion with the ministers. Yeah, how impressed have you been with the first meeting and the turnout by the ministers? Because, you know, of course, it's such an important education forum. How impressed are you? Yeah, we see the progress. Of course, you know, there is always room for improvement. And we see when we look at the Caribbean region that there are some, you know, countries and places where the anti-doping system doesn't look perfect. Let me put it in that way. And that's why we are grateful that our friends from Jamaica took the leadership as a country which has quite strong anti-doping system supported by the government. That's why Jamaica is hosting the event. And so education this time is a key topic. Last year, we discussed the compliance procedures. We encouraged the ministers to do more. We tried to convince them that the strong anti-doping system is a matter of credibility. Right? If you have a good athlete, if you're an athlete, the athletes from Jamaica deserve to compete with the athletes. From other countries in the same conditions. So this is the responsibility of the ministers of sport to make sure that the anti-doping policy in their countries is working well. How far off is the Caribbean to where you would like it to be? Well, I mean, we want more testing activities from the Caribbean side. I mean, from the countries. We want more education actions too. That's why tomorrow I'm going to discuss with the ministers and appeal to them to do more, actually, to strengthen the anti-doping system. You know, we really believe that sport has this power to unite people, to build something stronger. You know, sport is the best teacher for young athletes, but only sport without corruption, without doping this pure clean, beautiful sport. And this is the responsibility of the governments to build this credibility, to protect these values. This is actually our role as a water. President, how often, globally, would you have an exercise like this? Well, in all continents, actually, we have meetings, we have gatherings like this, assemblies in Asia, in Africa, in Europe. This is one of my duties as a water president to collaborate with the governments because our structure is unique. 50% of our representatives and contributions come from the sports movement and 50% regular contributions from the governments. What I was established in 1999 after the big doping scandal where there were no harmonization anti-doping system based on this unique structure, governments and the sports movement. So we have to collaborate with the governments without working well with the public authorities who are not able to achieve our mission. We are anti-doping global regulator. But, you know, the anti-doping policy in the countries, this is the responsibility of the governments. So, I mean, you know, the anti-doping system is very unique because I always, I love to use these arguments that, you know, we harmonize, we have, we oversee almost 200 countries. We have 700, more or less, 700 code signatories. I mean, those who signed the code word anti-doping code, the most important document in anti-doping. So can you imagine, you know, I know, criminal or administrative law coordinated or harmonized for two or three countries politically is impossible. And we managed to do it in anti-doping. Starting many years ago that we oversee, you know, almost all disciplines, all countries. And this is something very unique. And but of course system requires development, changes. And from our side, from my perspective, I have to say that we are in a really better and good place than in the past now. Having said that, a few decades ago, the general feeling was that drug cheats were maybe five or six steps ahead of water. Do you think drug cheats are still ahead of water? And if so, are there fewer steps ahead? Well, let me put it in that way. We will, it's not possible to eliminate doping from sport. You know, you will always find someone who will be able to cheat the system. You know, this is like with a with a crime in every dayness. You will not eliminate it definitely. But when I look at our tools, which we have now, we are in a much better position. Look, the anti-doping, it's not about testing now. Only testing. We have intelligence investigations. We work with Europol and Interpol with law enforcement. We conduct investigations currently only in Europe together with law enforcement. We have 55 operations. Thanks to these operations, we're able to detect, you know, hidden laboratories to confiscate dozens, tons of steroids. So what is not only about regulating the system, but working with law enforcement. We have tools like athlete biological passport to monitor, you know, behavior of athletes. I mean, how the body exactly reacts. We have, we are able to retest the samples after many years. We have compliance procedures. We have tools now even to sanction, you know, countries which are not following the rules. For instance, you know, if you are code signatory, I mean, you have to follow the word anti-doping code and our rules. If not, if your national law is not regulated, adjusted to the code, you can be non-compliant with the code. As a country, what does it mean? It means that one of the consequences is that your flag will not be you will not be in the world championships exactly. So you cannot be the host of major sporting events. So those consequences are really strong. So it shows our position currently in the sporting ecosystem, how strong we are, what we can do, what we can impose when someone is not following our rules. Yeah, and you just referenced drug cheats being phoned out years after testing. Initially, there was an eight-year period, but it's now up to 10 years that an athlete can be tested positive, which gives water that span of time to, you know, having probably upgraded and improved its testing that athletes can be phoned guilty even 10 years after performing. Exactly. Today I had a very interesting meeting with the athletes, Jamaican athletes, and I have to say that I received a lot of tough questions from the side, very nice fair discussion from them. But and this issue was raised by them, you know, and I've told me, no, guys, I was an athlete. I was running 400 meters. So I understand that sometimes this feeling that after many years, you know, when you are an athlete, you want to win this medal exactly in these championships, in these Olympic games. And after many years, it's like, you know, but it shows where we were actually and where we are now with the testing that methods, you know, now we have devices more sensitive to detect those, you know, violations which were committed by the cheats many years ago. So it's a very successful project only from the London Olympic Games. We are able to test positive more than 100 athletes after many years. Retrospective testing is the label it's given. Yeah. Yeah. Interesting you speak about being an athlete. I do remember you competing at the 2007 World Championships in the four by four for Poland running the second leg in the heats. Did you return for the final? Yeah, no, I didn't. I was not in the final because of the injury actually. So it was a difficult moment for me in Osaka because I was in a really good shape. But after the qualifications, when I ran with my colleagues, I got the injury. So I of course got the medal because my colleagues won the bronze, but I was only in qualifications. And then next year was another because I wanted to be the Olympian. I was in a good shape, but another injury. So yeah. And then you called it quits as an athlete after London? Yes. And you know, when I look at my career, I'm happy that it went not so maybe how I expected because things that I retired early, I am where I am because I was, you know, in my previous capacity, I was the minister of sport and tourism in Poland. And then I have a honor to be what a president. And then, yeah. And just 39 years old as well, you've achieved so much. If you had continued running, then we wouldn't be having this discussion with you probably. It was exactly my argument when I spoke with my wife, when I told her that I want to finish the running. She was like, no, no, you have to continue. I said, no, no. Yeah. You have a plan. You didn't know the plan. It was a good decision. It was a good decision. How much does it help your time as an athlete, especially identifying now with other athletes and the issues they face in this whole anti-doping process? And you speak about the conversation that you had with the Jamaican athletes earlier today. Were you able to identify more with a lot of their questions given your own experiences? Yeah. I was, yeah, it was a very good discussion because I received fair questions about the strict liability. Why we have to be so responsible? Why you cannot, for instance, certify the supplements in the world? So I explained them, it's not possible. We will not give the stamp of credibility to all the companies in the world which produce the supplements for that you want to be more confident. You have to be responsible for what is on your body, what you want to eat, what supplements you want to take. And, of course, we discuss about the whereabouts, the procedures, add-ons that athletes have to deliver the information where they are to be able to be ready to be tested. So it was the discussion, fair discussion, how we can strengthen the system, but how we can maybe facilitate the processes, the system for the athletes. And again, coming back to education, I encourage them to be in contact with Jatka, with the anti-doping commission from Jamaica to receive the information, what they can do, what they can take, what they cannot. So this is the responsibility, and I've passed the message to them, you know, guys, if you want to be an international level athlete, you have to accept the rules, first of all, sorry, but it is what it is. And then you have to be responsible for your body, for your career. One aspect of the rules, the therapeutic use exemption, that over time, well, definitely in this region, I personally feel there is a lack of understanding of how TUE's work and under what circumstances an athlete can apply for a TUE, and how long does it usually take to get it and so on? Yeah, I mean, this is exemption, this is the process which allows you to take, you know, prohibited substance if there is a real need to do it. I mean, if you are, I mean, if you have, if you are, if you got sick or if you have strong injury. Asthmatic is one of the... Yes, but yeah, you mentioned asthmatic. A lot of misunderstanding is around, you know, the asthmatic, the accusations on some nation that the athletes from this country is taking too many TUE's or medical meds, but to be fair, not too many, I would say, asthmatics, these medicines are on the, on our prohibited list at the moment, exactly. So this is not like, maybe it's a matter of communication, we have to communicate better the whole process, how it looks like, but it's quite clear, you have to, first of all, to ask for this TUE, your respective commission agency in your country, then it's reviewed by WADA, by our experts, and finally, if there is a real need to take this concrete substance, because it's dangerous for your love, there is need to do it, you have a permission to do it. Yeah, that explains it perfectly as far as I'm concerned, but just to be absolutely clear for those who are watching and may still not understand, so let us say an athlete turns up at a championship and they get the flu, they can't just go, oh well, I'm not feeling too well, I'm gonna apply for a TUE. No, absolutely not, it's a serious thing. For instance, there is a strong injury and I know some dangerous situation in your life, and then there is no alternative that you have to take, use this substance, do this method to recover or to be healthy, then doctors are reviewing it, so this is not like this great example that, oh, I feel bad, I will take the protein substance and I said, oh, sorry, I didn't know. Oh, I wanted TUE retrospectively, no, it doesn't look like this. Yeah, definitely, it does not work like that. You spoke earlier about nations that can be considered non-compliant. Is there any nation, as far as you know, in this region that is even close to being categorized as non-compliant? We have different tiers, right? So, the countries most developed when it comes to sport, economy, the different factors are taking account are in tier one, so some countries which are not so developed economically, you know, when it comes to sport and so on are in different tiers, so we have, I mean, we require less from them, right, to be compliant. The process is quite, but as far as I know now, it's not, there were some countries which were close to which were on our watch list, which were close to be non-compliant, but I don't want to crucify anyone now here, I mean, until the country is non-compliant, which is actually, obviously, it's a public information, I don't want to. What we are doing, first of all, this is the last tool which we use. It's not that we are happy to make someone non-compliant, right? So, this is actually set, and this is the last resource. It's not like we assist, we help, we push, and then if there is no alternative, we have a process in place that our CRC independent committee recommends some sanctions, let me put it that way, and then executive committee is taking the final decision. What type of work do you do with these federations, specifically when you realize that they are trending down the wrong path and there is the possibility they could become non-compliant? Yeah, we have department responsible for it. So, as I mentioned, we assist them, we monitor them, we have special procedures to monitor, some forms, we require documents, we review their legislation, how the system works, and then our experts are telling them what to improve, what to adjust, what to change. We are giving them timeline and then the assistance. So, it's not like that we are telling them, oh, it's wrong and do whatever you want, but you have to do it before March, right? In three months, otherwise you were gonna be non-compliant. No, no, we assist them, we help them, and then sometimes it depends. When you look at the politicians where they are ignoring us for months and then when it comes to the sanctions, they wake up and this is sometimes too late. Yeah, yeah, doesn't sound good at all. You want to cooperate as much as possible. We're almost out of time, but I have to get this one in. Vital Banker, 39 years old, a former 400-meter runner, is being asked to take on a retired Usain Bolt at 400 today. Who would win? Oh, my God, Bolt, it's, you know, I would not be... Are you serious? I would... He would still beat you? No, you don't think you're in better shape? Absolutely, it was 50 kilos ago when I was, you know, when I was strintered. So, no, I think it's... It would be an academy of strange moves from my side, you know? Still, I'm running from time to time, but it's jogging, right? So, you know, I don't want to... No, no. We gathered earlier on in your life, you had football as a big sport for you, a big AC Milan fan. Yeah, okay. You are very well prepared. Not to show what's happening with them, no Champions League titles since 2007. I was a big fan of AC Milan when they wrote Ruth Hulley, Mark Van Basten, Frank Reikard, you know, those... This generation, actually. You have a different team now? Now, as a well-known president, I cannot, you know, say it publicly, but, you know, I'm from Poland, so you can... Figure it out. You can figure it out at, you know, Lewandowski. I know him very well, so... The goal-scoring machine. Well, the goals haven't been coming, but yeah. I think, still, he will come back in a very good shape. I keep my fingers crossed for him. Yeah. We all do. Bitol Manca. It's been an absolute pleasure having you on the sports map. Thank you very much. It's been a pleasure having you back in Jamaica, and we wish you all the best with the forum over the next two days. Thank you very much. It was a pleasure for me. Thanks. Yeah, man, great. Yeah. All right.