 Tonight's consumer education event is being held to address the most pressing issues faced by consumers of financial services in this digital age. My name is Jesse Leonson and I will be your moderator, staring and navigating the insights and expertise of the following panelists. We have Ms. Paria Kerman, Director of Consumer Affairs within the Department of Consumer Affairs. Gordon Gillian, Country Manager, St. Lucia Republic Bank, E.C. Limited, Medford Francis, Medford Francis, Deputy Manager and Director of Lending and Investments at Bank of St. Lucia, Nigel Oliver, Country Head, St. Lucia C.I.B.C. First Caribbean, and Ms. Vina Frederick, Representative with the National Consumer's Association. So I mentioned the three bankers there and they are representing the Bankers Association of St. Lucia. They will be making a presentation this evening. So I do hope that your eyes and ears are in on that presentation, but first I just want to thank the panelists for availing themselves on this occasion and to thank the registrants for those of you joining, viewership for joining in and listening. Hopefully you can submit your queries, concerns, comments later on. Do rest assured that you will be afforded that opportunity. I open the floor now to the Director of Consumer Affairs, Paria Kerman, to deliver brief opening remarks on behalf of the government of St. Lucia, of course, speaking on touching on the benefits of utility digitization to the consumer and the work of the department toward the drafting of policy frameworks at the national and regional level that support consumer rights in this digitization of the financial services sector. Ms. Irwin, over to you. Thank you very much, Ms. Leos. Good evening, fellow panelists. Ministries of Ceremony, the listening and viewing audience. I bid everyone a warm welcome. Thanks for the opportunity to provide us the Consumer Affairs Department to provide an insight into the work of the departments, which falls under the umbrella of the Ministry of Commerce, Manufacturing, Business Development, Corporatives and Consumer Events. We've not been given an opportunity to be able to touch base with our publics in a long time given the pandemic and as a result, I have profited the opportunity to give an insight into the work of the department. The department came into being in 1997 as the government of St. Lucia sought to honor its obligations under the regional and international, its obligation, sorry, to meet its regional and international obligations to protect consumers and also to address matters pertaining to anti-competitive behavior. The price control department was transformed into the Consumer Affairs Department broadening the scope of the department to encompass all matters pertaining to consumers. The broadened scope required that the appropriate legislation be developed to provide protection for consumers and establish guidelines for businesses to adopt. The move also required the department to assist with the establishment of non-governmental organizations to advocate on behalf of consumers to agitate a change where consumers' rights were infringed. Therefore, in addition to monitoring the importation and sale of price control votes, the department now had responsibility to warn, that is receive, evaluate and process consumer complaints, conduct research on consumer issues, and educate consumers on the work of the department and consumer protection in general. This evening's activity is one of that fits nicely into the department's efforts to educate the public on matters of interest to consumers. We joined, said Lucia joins the rest of the world in celebrating World Consumer Rights Day, which is celebrated March 15th, annually. And the theme being celebrated this year is fair digital finance. And hence the reason why we have our panelists, which are the members of the Bankers Association to enlighten the public on the move from the traditional services into digital banking. Without further ado, I pass the mantle so to speak on to our colleagues from the Bankers Association to enlighten our public. Before we move on to the presentation itself, I know the bankers are anxious, enthusiastic to make the presentation today. We just want to hear from Mrs. Beena Frederick representing the National Consumers Association on this occasion, a gentle reminder that this activity is a part of activities nationally in observance of World Consumer, World Consumer Rights Day. So Mrs. Frederick. Thank you very much. Sorry. Thank you very much, I'm Jesse, and I would like to extend a warm and hearty good evening to all who are made an effort to attend this evening's session. Consumer associations play a vital role in educating, advising, representing, as well as counseling consumers so as to enforce their rights. They help produce the imbalances between the organizations or the businesses and consumers by empowering consumers and giving them the confidence to make informed decisions. The National Consumers Association has been a champion for underrepresented consumers nationwide from as far back as 2001. We are a nonprofit organization that focuses primarily on advocacy and education, which in turn is responsible for empowering our consumers. There is no doubt that digitization has brought about many benefits to financial consumers, but with every new advancement that we make as a society and as a people, there are challenges and there are always risks. These risks include new forms of theft or fraud that is perpetuated online. We see data breaches, we see lack of privacy and digital security incidents. And while statistics are not readily available to indicate how big the move from traditional and digital banking has been in San Lucia, these consumer issues and concerns must be addressed. Now, I would just speak briefly to two concerns, one is security and the other would be the hot button issue of bank charges. Security has and continues to be a huge challenge and consumers are open to cyber attacks and fraudulent activity online. But often consumers are oblivious to the fact that their online habits may put them at serious risk. Fraudsters prey on poor privacy habits and on the part of the consumer and issues like weak passwords and using unsecured networks make people vulnerable to online attacks. Banks need to demonstrate that security of their systems to their consumers and they also need to educate customers on improving their privacy and security habits to avoid online attacks like login credential theft and what we call phishing. Now on to the most talked about issue which is bank charges. There is something very upsetting about banks simply deciding that customers must pay a fee to withdraw their own monies. And there is the view that the banks utilize customer savings to make a profit. Customers detest banks simply resulting to the extremely parasitic acts of arbitrary fees. And the fiercest and most powerful example of the official rejection of such financial parasitism came from the prime minister of Barbados, Mia Mortley, wherein she admonished the commercial banks of Barbados to desist from their financial parasitism and urge them to stop watching consumer finances like security guards but to get busy instead in expanding their loan portfolios in the interest of the economy growth and the development of Barbados. As a member of the National Consumers Association, these are some of the issues we plan to soon take on and it cannot be right to simply charge customers for every single transaction and this is done without any consultation with the consumers who hold accounts in those banks. So I see this as an opportunity for us to discuss those very issues and for us to get consumers involved and educated as to what is happening and the consequences that comes about as a result of us now going digital with financial services. Thank you very much, Jesse. Over to you. Thank you very much, Ms. Vina-Frederick, and doing a wonderful job by Jesse representing the National Consumers Association. We heard some of the concerns heard by you and of course the prior event hosted by the Department of Consumer Affairs and Collaboration with the Bankers Association of St. Lucia in highlighting some of these concerns so hopefully we do hear from the team from the Bankers Association this evening during their presentation addressing these matters and I'm certainly sure it's not then but after when we have the queries and comments we open the floor to our viewers and the individuals who have registered. So now to the three gentlemen who will be making the presentations. We do have, as I mentioned earlier, Mr. Medford Francis, Deputy Managing Director of Lending and Investments at Bank of St. Lucia. We have Mr. Gordon Julien, Country Manager at the St. Lucia Republic Bank, EC Limited, and Mr. Nigel Oliver, Country Head for the St. Lucia CIDC First Caribbean. Thank you Mr. Medford to you three gentlemen. Thank you very much, Jesse, and good evening to all of our participants. Let me just start by thanking the Ministry of Commerce for this opportunity to reflect a bit on the theme for this year World's Consumers Day which is fair digital finance. We believe that this is quite a timely issue that we face and I think the introductions by both Ms. Frederick and Ms. Herman are quite on point. I think through our presentation this evening we will in fact address some of those issues and of course if there are still any lingering concerns thereafter the floor will be open to further questions. So a very quick start to the presentation, just to put this in context, what is digital finance? We've been hearing so much talk about it. It's really the use of digital technologies to administer financial services. It is one aspect of financial technology or what we call fintech. It introduces new products, applications, processes and business models, some of the new technologies that are actually driving digital finance include the social networks that we have seen crop up all over, mobile applications, cloud computing, big data analytics and blockchain technology. Blockchain is in fact what is driving our digital currency within the ECU space, our digital XCD dollar, artificial intelligence or commonly known as machine learning. So all of these technologies are in fact driving what we are now seeing and play out in terms of digital financial services. For us digital finance is an imperative for many reasons because it drives competitiveness. It offers consumers options at lower prices. In terms of a seamless digital space, the fact that you are doing this remotely and virtually, it means it facilitates cross-border mobility in more ways than traditional channels would have. And of course in terms of overall financial stability, it would contribute significantly in that regard. Of course it unleashes innovation and creates opportunities for better financial products and we will see some of that as we proceed and of course this issue of greater financial inclusion and as I indicated in the opening, the whole issue of whether digital finance introduces some level of equity in terms of access to services and we will certainly see that that is in fact the case because it really unleashes the potential for sectors within our population that traditionally will unbound or underserved to now come into being streamed financial services. And of course security and convenience and Ms. Frederick did speak to that a bit and of course there are safeguards, there are protective mechanisms that ensures that your transactions in the digital space are in fact safe and secure. So what are the prerequisites to digital finance? Importantly there is an issue of a good digital identification and what do I mean by that? It means we need a reliable way of authenticating one's identity and in such a way that it cannot be disputed and that is the key really to digital finance and in fact it's the key to the digital economy that we've been speaking about in that without that means of identifying individuals or entities rather, it would be impossible to transact or to do anything. So it's a prerequisite and our challenge has always been how do we come up with a good digital identification system, it could drive our health systems, our education and you would have appreciated that even during the pandemic we had situations where it was difficult to come to say the bank to do a transaction but we had no choice but to have facilitated the in-branch transaction because there was no other way of verifying one's identity. So as a country it is important if we are going to look at digitalization in any significant way that the basis for this should really be a good digital identification system. I beg reference to the Mechanistic Global Institute 2019 report on digital identification which holds that emerging markets that are able to implement successfully a digital ID system can unlock GDP growth equivalent to about 6% of GDP on average by 2030. So that is very telling in that respect and so we present this today as something to cut that's something that we need to you know contemplate a little bit on. Another prerequisite for digital finance and of course digital transactions, the digital economy in general is of course our broadband penetration and I'm speaking to both fixed and wireless broadband subscriptions in solution terms of mobile broadband. We have about a 48.1% penetration rate and in terms of fixed broadband penetration we have something like 11.3% penetration and as you can see here we are trailing the OECS you know as a grouping so in as much as we see the popular use of the devices there is still a long way we have to go in terms of making broadband available to all. What are the digital banking services that we speak of I would just list them very quickly we speak of online and mobile banking services ATM cash dispensers services debit and credit cards point of sale services tele banking digital banking which would include things like your online account opening online loan applications and virtual interviews for whatever the reason it could be for the loan or any other purpose and of course you have what we see now is the introduction of a lot of what we call the peer-to-peer lending platforms. All of these are simple they are available 24-7 they are instant they are convenient they are secure they are paperless and of course there is enhanced support that you get from the use of those services so there are a lot of benefits to them very briefly our ATM services and as you go from institution to institution the range of features would vary so we have access to your accounts we have the transfer of funds and these are generally available you know 24-7. In terms of our online and mobile banking again you will see different levels of functionality or different levels of features as you go from institution to institution but broadly speaking we have the ability to access your account safely and securely we could transfer funds you could manage payments you can initiate wire transfers and what we call electronic fund transfers which my colleague Gordon will speak to in just a minute we have secure messages and we have other services such as top-ups and financial calculators. E-commerce is essentially refers to all aspects of operating a business online and certainly online shopping is of course the purchasing and goods and services online very popular especially now during these pandemic times persons are found it more convenient to shop online and to conduct a lot of their transactions by those those means. We have seen the digital models in different parts of the world for example the mobile payment systems and passing in Kenya basically it allows persons to digitally store send and receive money cheaply through their mobile phones we have seen platform ecosystems Alibaba certainly if it's the large e-commerce platform now has Alipay to go along with that so you can see an integration of those technologies as part of one ecosystem and very importantly we have what we call the application programming interfaces that allow the exchange of customer data and instructions between applications and that's very important in terms of being able to now extend services via third party providers. What are the benefits of digital finance we saw during the pandemic certainly in a very big way and in terms of cost and efficiency this is information from the world bank group which shows that today over 950 million registered mobile money accounts across 90 countries exist and within within those there are about 1.3 billion transactions daily so you can see the significance of mobile money and it is it is a fact as indicated by the world bank that this has served to reduce the cost of these transactions down from about 6.8 percent to 3.3 percent so in terms of access and you know being able to get cheaper services digital finance certainly offers that benefit they are in fact some drawbacks and challenges for for example the financial institutions involved there's a high cost of digital transformation and on top of that the very slow rate of adoption by our customers and in fact what that creates for us is quite a bit of a dilemma because we have invested in those systems but persons are reluctant to start using them which means that we basically now have to run two platforms the traditional platform and the digital platform at tremendous cost so part of the part of what we're doing within the industry is trying to find ways that we can encourage customers to migrate to these digital channels as opposed to the traditional channels because it is in fact a very high cost element in the operation of banks on the demand side our customers in terms of the level of financial literacy in terms of their technological proficiency they are having issues in terms of the various applications that we make available we understand that and this is what this education series is really about and of course Amysphagic would have spoken about the trust issue and of course education and sensitization will help in that regard as well we also have situations where for many persons who are not necessarily holders of bank accounts the reason is is simply because the incomes are relatively small and quite volatile so they see no reason to actually have a bank account and that is in fact you know a major issue that we would have to deal with as we move forward into this digital space and the risk importantly we know of the breaches of confidential customer information identity theft and fraud Ms. Frederick would have spoken to these things breaches in terms of what we call know your customer which is important in terms of being able to maintain our regulatory status as being you know institutions that are totally above board and who are compliant with international regulations as far as money laundering and terrorist financing is concerned these are important issues to us as they are as they should be to customers and of course within any digital sphere we have to ensure that KYC is not compromised the issue of exclusion is a real risk in as much as we are saying that digital finance will in fact cause financial inclusion it can also cause financial exclusion for the reasons that I mentioned earlier the level of literacy you know technological proficiency you know this can actually lead to persons opting out as opposed to persons opting in and of course there are unfair practices by unscrupulous institutions which we don't have any of I can see amongst our grouping but certainly issues of recourse I mean how does a customer who has encountered you know some disadvantage issue in using digital you know media how does that individual get some kind of recourse what are the you know the the agent liabilities that need to be pursued and that is where consumer protection comes in and let me just say that we are very happy for this collaboration with the Ministry of Commerce this is why we jumped at this opportunity and we're really hoping that this would be the start of many things to come we really intend to make this a series of community engagements on issues that are relevant to banking and financial services because for us it's about continuously empowering our customers giving them the assurance that we have the data protection mechanisms for our laws we do have a data protection act we do have in terms of the regulations specific amendments within our consumer protection law that ensures that even as we transition to digital channels there are no loopholes within the legislation that will allow for our consumers to be exploited so these are important enabling things that we as an association and as I indicated through dialogue and consultation with the ministry with government officials we would endeavor to ensure are in place government has a very big role to play in all of this in terms of the conducive legal and regulatory framework I wanted to speak specifically about the issues as it relates to things like for example credit bureaus which allows somebody to actually access finance by virtue of an assessment of the credit scores you know and in terms of the long process of applying for a loan I mean where you have to submit all of this due diligence information a credit score through a digital channel allows you to access a loan a lot quicker it is the role of our government to put in place the appropriate legislation for the introduction of credit bureaus in our in our country and there is in fact a draft credit reporting bill we also have a draft securities interest in movable properties bill and a lot of you will identify with the fact that when you're doing a loan for example a mortgage you run down to the registry you know to get the appropriate documentation the land registers etc we need to move to electronic registry so that this information can be accessed virtually and like I said before it's really not just about digital finance it's really about a digital economy and all of the enabling elements of that digital economy and finally of course government could be a leader in terms of ensuring that we have you know a digital civil status registry our important departments like Inland Revenue Department etc are in fact totally digital in many respects so this takes me to the end I will move on very quickly to my colleague Gordon who will take you through the original payment system thank you thank you Matt for good evening Jesse our friends are the consumer affairs department viewers listeners good evening it's a pleasure to be here I am going to be speaking about the original payment system and more specifically the Eastern Caribbean automated clearinghouse the ECCH has been maybe one of the most significant developments that have taken place over the last decade within the ECCH this the ECCH is owned by the by all the banks in the member it member territories and it's an electronic network can you change this like this next slide yes an electronic network for clearing of checks and other electronic transactions it was established in 2011 and like I said owned by all the banks and is governed by the payment systems app and ECCH rules we just issued by the ECB and it was really developed to provide a cost effective or efficient clearance and settlement mechanism for retail payments that meets international standards and very importantly it is secure next slide the EFT is an authorized transmission funds from which accounts from which funds are transmitted through accounts through the ECCH it allows for funds from customers within the same institution different institutions within the same country and across different countries a transaction information should include the name of the account the account number and beneficiary financial institution as well as the amount to be paid very importantly clients can initiate EFT transactions either online in branch or via mobile channels and it allows for direct deposits payrolls social security benefits tax refunds and pension and secondly direct payments consumer bills mortgage payments insurance premiums and person to person payments or business to business and payments EFT is cheaper is faster and more convenient option for sending and receiving money and it's also a very good alternative to cash or checks the EFT in just to give you some perspective in 2021 the ECCH processed more than 6.43 million transactions valued at more than 27.52 billion dollars and this includes checks which is 4.16 million transactions value of 18.96 million and EFT 2.27 million transactions value of 8.56 billion so you will notice that the lion's share of the transactions going through the ECCH still represents checks or checks represents the lion's share of those transactions yeah checks in and of itself is a is has some inefficiencies in it the ECCH what they've done is that we've digitized checks and streamlined the declaring process so that checks no longer go through a process where you have a physical exchange of checks those checks what is exchange is ready the images but still because of the how it operates is still a very archaic system and creates a high level of inefficiencies EFTs which is much more efficient we while it's growing and it's growing at a significant rate the the reduction in checks is much slower than the rate of growth in EFTs the improvement in EFT it's improving the payment system across territories and promoting more efficient commerce and it's supporting the ECB's plan to reduce its reliance on cash prior to the ECCH like I said checks were clearing in a manual way and it took up to three days for checks to clear into island or into territory checks took a couple weeks through that process the clearing process for checks whether on island or across territories is the same presently it's t plus one that is if a check is deposited in a bank today it should clear within within a day of a day following the deposit so it's deposited today you have to allow for checks to be returned through the system which by the second day and customers should get value for the check by the end of the second day which means that on the third day the morning of the third day you should get value for your checks with EFT it's instant so a transaction is put through the system and customers get value for the checks right away next slide next slide please some opportunities that exist is that they we're looking for greater efficiencies in the network to enhance the the settlement window presently the settlement window ranges from 7.15 in the morning to 3.30 in the afternoon we believe that there's an opportunity to extend the the settlement window to get closer to a 24.7 type of scenario there is an opportunity to promote growth or enhancement in in EFT usage so as I said earlier there's a high level of reliance on checks but understanding appreciating the fact that EFT is a much more efficient payment mechanism we would like to see an improvement or an enhancement in the in the utilization of EFT across the across the network there's also an opportunity for new products and services whether the direct debits usd items or which would cause a reduction in checks currently the eca ch there's only easy transaction so it does not allow for clearing of usd items or for transmission of usd payments across the network there's also an opportunity for a greater level of inclusion presently the eca ch is available only to the commercial banks across the member territories there's an opportunity perhaps credit unions which is fast and growing across the region for their own participation in the eca ch which will allow for a greater level of inclusion and more persons realizing the benefits of the eca ch I will stop at this point and obviously I'm sure that there would be a lot of questions during the Q&A session thank you okay thank you very much mr jillian do we have the last word from yes we have one final presentation on fees and charges to be delivered by Nigel so Nigel thank you very much uh medford and a pleasant good evening to you miss leon's the colleagues from the ministry of commerce miss herman and miss fedrick and of course my fellow bankers association members um god and medford and a special evening as well to our viewers and listeners and I just want to spend a little time here this afternoon to to share with you a little bit on the fees and charges now we are a highly regulated sector of course reasons being is a key sector in any economy in terms of terms of the financial sector and where people's monies are concerned you know we have a great responsibility as a result we have various regulators and guidelines standards that we we have to observe now as a licensed financial institution we have to ensure and that we observe these guidelines strictly of course this comes at a at a huge cost to us but it is the price cost of doing business um included in that is the fact that um you know we in order to do business we need to get deposits from the public and and our clients so um again a great responsibility that we have is to protect our depositors money it is the core of banking in terms of that we have a responsibility we technically borrow money from our clients and entrust that responsibility to us and we must then keep that money safe of course we must use that money to make available to persons who um are in need of financing be it individuals or businesses and um having said that though we have a cost associated with holding those funds so for all savings held within the banking system within the currency union governed by the eastern Caribbean central bank we are required to pay all depositors two percent per annum on those deposits clearly um you know it sort of is the the foundation of part of the cost that we are are faced with so for instance um if we if we borrow a hundred dollars from a depositor and we are to lend it out to somebody else who wish to to access funds for some purpose and we must start with the fact that it's costing us two percent of that hundred dollars already not to mention as earlier spoke to the cost of um ensuring that we have a very robust framework in place to to follow all the necessary regulatory guidelines coupled with that we're the business of lending money and there is a risk associated to that and that risk is that when we lend somebody money they will not be us back it is very expensive and time consuming to to foreclose and recover funds that are being defaulted on and once more of course also facing the real risk of not getting it back at all so some of these things form the basis for which a bank would decide um how they go about charging for the various products and services you would appreciate as well that we are a business and somebody would have invested in this as a business and would expect some decent return on the investment um we have a responsibility to ensure that we are a viable business because of our importance to the to the economy and I think we all would be aware of the the demise that a country can face if a the financial sector is not stable and sound so while we go about doing business we have to ensure that we are covering the cost of doing business and that we can have some sort of a decent return for our shareholders and the persons who would have invested their capital so that sort of gives you a in in summary part of what drives the the cost of of doing business with us and I think it's fairly transparent in terms of when we talk about interest rates I mean we have seen rates tumble over the last few years from double digits for mortgages to most of us are running mortgages at at five percent and of course having said earlier that we started at two percent in terms of our minimum cost which is what which is what we are required to pay as the minimum savings rate in between that is our other costs and then of course the fact that we need to try to turn a profit so I think that sort of summarizes and lays the foundation for you know sort of the the context of our being able to charge and the fact that we need to to to have those charges my colleagues would have spoken earlier to some of the initiatives that we're undertaken to try and allow for us to reduce and and give you know services that come at a lower cost the digital products are definitely along those lines and number of us in most cases offer most of our online banking and other digital products free of charge and so we would encourage persons to capitalize on those options let me just talk a little bit also because I'm the the slide before us now gives a indication of the the type of spikes that we see over time for in terms of non-performing loans where at 20 2013 2014 we were in the region of of high teens only 20 percent I mean we've had to deal with in the the last two years situations where we did moratoriums for clients because of the situation with COVID that in itself has resulted in a number of organizations throughout the currency union a number of licensed financial institutions having to suffer significant losses over that period because of course clients would have lost their jobs economies would have been closed for a period of time and then the banks have had to suffer significant losses loan losses in that area so we when we're taking into account you know how we operate we have to factor all of those things in and of course we would be happy to to shed some more light and to to answer questions around concerns with with charges and fees so thanks so much for the opportunity to be able to share this bit with you and I'll hand it back over now to Miss Leon's to continue with this forum thank you thank you very much Mr Francis Mr. Jeanier and Mr. Oliver from the Bank's Association of St. Lucia thank you very much for your present presentation very sedating establishing the working definition of digital finance and providing information on digital finance since its emergence our the national picture the regional picture of the impact of these digital utilities also providing insight on the regulations that guide the issuance of the much removed bank fees and charges I I know that we have many questions from the individuals who joined the viewership at this time but I first want to engage the panelists Miss Frederick and also a question going out to Miss Herman as well how much we've just heard an outline from the bankers in terms of the the essentially the operations what they are up against in terms of managing not only the resources that it takes to introduce facilities for digital finance and other services within the financial services sector but also the challenges that they encounter in terms of breaking even and and making sure the investor reports are balanced how does the National Consumers Association take into consideration these these challenges by the financial services sector in making determinations as to what is disadvantages and what is not I think Jesse it is always a balancing act we we know that businesses where the private sector or corporate they're in the business of turning over a profit so all businesses would like to see a return on their investment whatever services that they may be offering to the public but it must not be to the detriment of the consumers that they are expected to serve it is very important that consumers understand the changes that are happening within the banking sector and I and most times there is a divide between what is happening within the banking sector and what the consumers on the ground really understand and appreciate about the changes that are happening how is it impacting the banking sector and the repercussions for the consumer so I think education and finance education and the changes that are happening are critical I do not think enough has been done as it relates to educating the consumers so they understand the impact so they have say so in the decisions that have implications for them because as a customer of a bank and the responsibility of the bank is to communicate with me the consumer to let me know that there is a change and the change has implications for me I ask the consumer need to understand what are those implications and the rationale behind the change and it has to be a balancing act as well because it cannot be that we're putting fees on consumers that makes it very difficult for them so could you imagine the man who's 78 years old who has to go to the bank and withdraw his few dollars that he has in the bank and to understand that there is always a charge or there is an inconvenience or that the customer service is not the greatest so on the part of the bank there is a lot that they need to work on in terms of delivering the service to the customers and customer service is very critical banking charges are a huge issue with customers and we see all of the complaints online how consumers feel about those charges and sometimes customers do not understand why why why those charges why must I pay two dollars every time I go to the bank why if bank of solutions 80 and I and I'm just using this as an example I'm not for instance at bank of solution why is that if the ATM machines are down at bank of solution and I use another bank why should the charge be 12 dollars why should you charge me 12 dollars for using another ATM machine when the reason for your ATM machine being down is not my fault so why should I incur that cost okay we're going to get to the bank is addressing that matter in just a moment but I first want to ask and it's open to any of the bankers and I just want to let everyone know that this is a conversation a dialogue I do welcome discreet interjections piggyback piggybacks contestant and reinforcements among the panelists but I first I know there is a response I am certain of it to your your statement especially the tail end but I first want to ask of the bankers to what extent has the the bankers association and perhaps in your own respects at your own institutions to what extent have you gone in terms of ensuring that that digital finance takes care of its consumer conscious is taking into consideration the consumer what measures have been put in place to ensure that there is consideration for the the average same ocean the average resident of St. Lucia office on the metrics that you have on St. Lucia's on the residents of St. Lucia their incomes and so on um let's see if you want to take that measure um well I'll start and you can always um continue um Gordon um I think we have gone through great lengths to ensure that the digital channels that we have that that are available um you know are brought to the average um citizen of St. Lucia um it I mean if you have to look at the the benefits of these um of these digital channels in terms of the convenience for example um you know the fact that you can actually you know apply for a loan within the comfort of your home or the comfort of your office right I think it's very compelling and I mean we we know of the the travel cost involved in you know finding your way to castries if you leave and say ancillary or canaries or finding your way to Souffre where the nearest bank is located we know that there is a travel cost to that um the fact that these these services are now available um virtually um it should be very compelling for customers we understand the challenges that persons may face in terms of not being comfortable with the channels but we can assure you that banks invest quite a bit of money in in those technologies to ensure that what we bring forward is in fact safe um there's a lot of protection that in addition to the platforms themselves that are built into banking systems okay to ensure the safety and security of of of of you know customer information and to ensure that your transactions are not compromised in any way in any case I mean if anyone suffers a loss by virtue of the use of online or or any other service um ultimately the bank is is liable okay it is not you the customer that would be liable for such a loss so in terms of your question Jesse um you know what are we doing in terms of getting our customers to use those channels we believe that the education is important bringing persons to the level of of comfort that they need in order to access um those channels and we believe that it's it's only a matter of time I mean look what what COVID showed us I mean we will we will fast I can venture to say that we had a record number of um applications for online services over the last two years as a result of the pandemic um there will be other events that will force us to go digital okay whether we want it or not now the traditional channels are very costly Gordon would have mentioned to you the the fact that we have introduced the electronic funds transfer which is which which is free it means now that I in St. Lucia can now transfer money to a bank in send kits okay to to to a beneficiary with a bank account in send kits um seamlessly with no charge there's absolutely no charge to doing that right now via electronic funds transfer and you will have credit to that account the next day okay so this is very compelling I mean traditionally we use Swift um via transfers which had a cost now this this is this is free so why should somebody write a check now which now has to be physically um transfer to send kits well these days we scan and so forth but still there is there is more administrative work involved in processing a check than doing a transaction via say EFT and what the administrative work entails or what it implies is that we have to have the staff to do that something that an electronic platform could do we have to get four or five people to do in a back office somewhere which puts a heavy burden on banks so you would appreciate that when we say okay the fact that we have EFT we are now suggesting to you that if you come to a bank to clear a check that could otherwise this payment could have been made via EFT we are going to impose a five dollar charge on you which will help us offset the cost of having our tellers and clerks to process that that check for you okay and it's not just at our bank it's also at the at the other bank as well so you know there is a cost factor to banking and um i mean i'm venturing a little here in suggesting that at the end of the day banks are obligated to be profitable okay our regulations mandate that will remain profitable um and the the the reason for that is that we need to ensure that our customers deposits are protected okay and a profitable bank is what is going to ensure that as well as the fact that um our capital which is really what we need or what gives us the legitimacy to operate as banks is not compromised through heavy losses jesse if i could jump in here a little bit Medford before god and i know god has a point but i kind of feel obligated to say this because i am the PR of the bankers association and i know we have undertaken a very rigorous education program which started with with this partnership we have with the ministry and we have committed to to doing more so we we agree that more can be done and as as a as individual institutions we all have you know programs where we educate our clients on those changes and platforms as a matter of fact we have an obligation to advise our clients of those changes and within a certain time as well especially fee changes and other significant changes but we are committed as an organization and association to continue this education program i think we we we use various social media platforms now we still use only traditional mediums but of course we have to reach everyone and i know not everyone has access to the social media platforms that we speak about i mean so we have to we have to look at the the broader picture and how can we reach um you know the person who don't have a phone that could have the whatsapp or the the facebook or instagram or emails as for that matter so so we have a committee that we set up a special committee just to work on this program for the the end that is our priority as this new executive so let me just um i just wanted to interject them and for to say that because i think that's important to to get out there that this is a step uh clearly um you know that people are saying that they've not heard and they do not hear about these changes means that we have not reached all the persons that we should so um i wanted to make that point and i know god and also wanted to to speak a bit i hope i didn't steal your thunder there god because i just felt i needed to to make that point i know that i just want to stress um the importance of what you just said there about the education and enriching everybody in society because my 80 year old grandmother who lives in london rhoderiso is not on facebook nor instagram nor whatsapp nor is she listening to the tv it may be required that you go into the community and engage the community at a town all session in their community center and have a conversation with the persons you are not able to reach but i think critical for us is education because we know there is a digital divide yes everybody may have a cell phone but not everybody knows how to go online and log into their online banking and check their money my grandmother still has a book that she wants to walk to the bank get it stamped know that she knows her amount is in there not that she needs to go on a computer so this is another hurdle and another thing we need to remember there's a particular niche within our community that still leaves on the book that they have in their bags and that they will perhaps may take a while to get them to go online and please jesse i just wanted to add to what vena has said it highlights the consumer right to information the consumer has a right to be informed and all what federal panelists have said there borders on information sharing there's not sufficient being passed on to our consumers and we need to ensure that that is addressed at the soonest because the informed consumer can make wise choices and again you may see that we're down into benefits that the bank can accrue greater membership um better pr concern in the banking sector and we want to see that happen all all great points i think the points i wanted to make they were all spoken about but certainly to highlight the importance of of information sharing you know all the advancements that the banks make we talk about some of the technological advancements they are really made with the customer in line to preserve you know the security of the system um efficiency and convenience um for the customer we recognize that not every customer is going to be um you know technologically savvy and in some cases we have to adopt a different approach for those customers you know recognizing that they are different different position in the in the in the technology curve um you know a lot has been said about about fees that i know metford responded quite quite well to it you know i always say that banks really should not apologize for for making a profit and and you don't really make a profit first and foremost for your shareholders you make a profit for your depositors because nobody nobody on the score is going to put your money in a bank that is losing money you want to go to bed at night and wake up next didn't work not worrying about the bank that you have your money and it's going to go under right and that is why banks are required by law to publish their financial statements in the banking hall and on the website and has to have it visited so that everybody can look at the financial statements and see that the bank is financially sound and therefore their deposits are sound banking is is unlike any other business where the bank is really owned what 5 10 percent by the shareholders the other 90 95 percent is the depositors so the bank is riding on the banks on the backs of the depositors and therefore we have us we have a fiduciary responsibility to operate the banks in a safe and song manner so that we can preserve the wealth of our nation in the Caribbean in the ecu we we we are the custodians of the majority of the significant portion of our wealth unlike in the u.s. and elsewhere where you have the stock markets and funds are held in equities all manner of things in the Caribbean in the ecu area funds our nation's wealth are held in the deposits in the bank and therefore we got to make sure that we operate our banks in a manner that will preserve the wealth of our nation right um with regards to the checks you know people are still holding on to the checks we have a lot of people companies who are paying their payroll by checks that in itself is it puts a lot of inefficence in the system on a friday fortnight the banking line is full people come to catch the checks when in fact there is a very good alternative way of making those payments those payments can be done simply by using the um the eft platform where customers accounts can be deposited directly at any bank uh within within central or anywhere and at the end of the day those customers all after this take the atm card go in the atm and we've drawn the money um some of the fees are designed to promote uh usage of the alternative delivery channels most banks that i know there's no fees for using the atm there's no fees for using online channels there's no fees for eft all right uh there may be a fee in some cases for coming into the bank to cash a check but the alternative is to deposit that check at your bank it doesn't have to be at the bank that the check is drawn at it could be at your bank and allow the check to go through the fairing process where you could get value next day or even better funds can be transferred payments can be made by eft and get away from the checks so i've said a lot i mean there's a lot more to be said on this god if i could just add to that a little bit two two two words that i heard earlier i just wanted to speak to a little bit senior citizens senior citizens um and uh you know a sector of our our customer base that we we respect greatly because most of them have been loyal to us for many years from when they had started um or the relationship with us to the point of where they have become senior citizens and we all have special consideration for senior citizens in terms of fees associated with their comms and in some cases most senior citizens uh do a free banking with most of the the organizations within the the bankers association so that much we we have um taken care of and then one last point on the abm that came up a bit earlier in terms of why i believe it's miss fedrick mentioned about if one of our abm's are done as in let's say i'm the representative for first caribbean here and i had a situation where our abm in sufer was done for quite some time and the concern was raised by a number of our clients there and a similar situation with a number of my colleagues and when we spoke about it our approach is similar if my abm is done in sufer and um bank of st lucha abm is used and the client includes an additional charge for using that abm we normally refund the client that charge because we know that we could not provide that service at that time my colleagues of um from the other the banks have said a sit have taken a similar approach i know when godna and i spoke about this couple of weeks ago he had some abm's done they use other banks abm similarly those charges because of course those charges appear on the client's account it's fairly straightforward for us to be able to identify them within the period of time that our abm was done and so we um we understand as an association that we have a network of abm's throughout the country from time to time because they're they're machines for one reason or the other we would have abm's going down but we we we say to people that there are options with using our our colleagues abm's from the other banks and please reach out to your bank uh to to negotiate to have that fear of us if you find yourself in that situation because we're very flexible where that is concerned so i just thought i would mention that in this forum that's very exciting but what i recognize is that not many customers are aware of this information that you just shared because recently i've been monitoring facebook and i see people post their issues relating to to bank fees and when they go to a bank what happens that was one of the issues and hence why i raised it here today but i'm i'm learning about this first time in this forum not that i could go on your website in your frequently asked questions and say here's the information and it's readily available and the public are aware that if presented with a circumstance such as this there is an opportunity for me to get a refund so the issue of of education is critical yeah we may know the information and will be believed that persons are aware of what they should do if they confront with a particular situation but there are many perceptions about what people know and in actuality what they actually know and and there's also an issue of trust in banks people's perception of the bank is that you're only taken from me and i'm not getting anything from you so every time i use your ATM you take two dollars i go to the supermarket you take another fee i go over there you take another fee but what am i getting from you if i may this calls for what we term full disclosure perhaps the banks can inform perhaps through a pamphlet or something of nature indicating what their fees are and the reason for certain such fees and some information pertaining to avenues that can be sought avenues that they can pursue to deal with certain matters when they're presented with those matters because the lack of information or was that a lack of information sorry just to stick up in just to stick up in so the two points there are several several um warnings happening here so one to uh indicate i did hear from miss Frederick and echoed by um miss Ruman the lack of trust to be a concern so perhaps a response on perhaps the banks coming um coming across a reinforcing like a more humane presence with the population and also what the procedures are for handling consumer complaints and not just that there is a procedure procedure through red tape and bureaucracy but rather something that is seamless and easy that if somebody has to use an ATM another ATM sort of their own bank's ATM that there is a line that they can call there is a deal that they can send to a particular email address where they would get a speedy response and it will not be delayed or um having the person be discouraged by having to go through all of these measures to recoup you know a five to ten dollars on the matter of um three of the transparency um point that was raised by miss Herman it's actually um the well the set the ectv regulator they are they are very they are to take a very active interest in fees and full disclosure by by banks it's actually one of those requirements that we must we must adhere to where we must publish um our schedule of fees and charges our schedule of fees and charges is published in two places um on our own individual websites as well as the eccb website every year banks are required to provide the schedule of fees to eccb and what eccb actually do they have a site by site comparison of those fees and that information is available on the eccb website in addition to how two information is available on the bank's own website so that there's full full disclosure of those things um you asked about complaints um and the process for for dealing with complaints again that is one of those things that is a is a is a is a matter that is of of interest to the to the set all regulators and banks are required to have a process in place for receiving complaints for tracking those complaints and for resolving those complaints so every bank have that process in place where complaints are received directly either by telephone calls or by emails um banks even some banks even have a process where they scan social media sites so facebook chats and ig chats and so forth and and those information is handled they are handled is handled and customers may receive a direct message from the banks in response to the queries that they would have raised and that information is logged within the bank and we try to see how how well and how quickly um they are they are resolved and they are addressed so there's a process in place for that um there is at this point in time a process a nationwide process where at at the bankers association level where where customers can log their complaints at a central central authority as it is right now those companies are logged at the individual bank level yeah and before um before miss fedrick um asked a question jesse if you permit me um this last point that um Gordon made um is something that we we we've put quite a bit of of leads um that if there are issues that are not specific to any one bank um and it it it pervades the sector as a whole um where can one take those issues and um certainly the bankers association um have you know has taken note of this and it is something that we will be deliberating on in in the weeks to come with a view to put it in place some form of um system where we can actually um receive complaints and um have a proper resolution um you know plan of action to deal with with all of those complaints that come that come in um as it relates to issues that are sector-wide thank you for that Mr. Francis jesse jesse just too quick from me before you you jump in um in relation to the complaints um I would agree that all institutions has a avenue for dealing with complaints in a complaints handling process but when it is a customer wants a refund for 250 he's expected to wait on a line outside the bank for one hour gets into the bank and has to wait another hour in order to lodge his complaints to get a refund for 250 you can see where the issue lies right appreciating that there is a complaint process but there are challenges in navigating that complaint process in terms of the time frame in which it has to be dealt with for just two dollars and fifty cents two hours one hour on a line outside and one hour on a line inside um in relation to the issue of full disclosure and publishing of the fees on the bank's website as well as the ecb website um not many people go to the ecb website to access information on fees and not many people go to your website to access information on fees so there should be other avenues by which we reach the populace to inform them of the changes and uh to hear what they have to say say on on those changes because customers consumers always feel I don't have a voice in the changes that affect me and to a large extent when changes are made from a banking sector standpoint the consumer does not have a voice as to yeah only I want those changes I don't want the changes I don't have a voice because those changes are made at a level where the consumer is not engaged at the ecc level and our local governments who are part who are aware of some of those changes um sign off on those changes and don't really take into consideration the implications to those customers consumers so hence why I suppose the national consumers come come into play in terms of lobbying and advocating on behalf of the consumers engaging the relevance stakeholders and having the the right conversation so that we can work hand in hand in order to deal with those issues and bring those issues to your attention because it may be at a particular level you believe that this is the process but whether the process is really effective from the bottom up your guy who's a CSR on the ground dealing with the complaints whether he's doing it in an effective manner is a question mark just upon a clarification though miss redrick the the matter of fees is not a matter that is determined at the at the at the original level at the ecc level um fee changes is determined at the individual bank level however there's a requirement that before any fee comes into effect uh banks are required to give at least 30 days notice um to customers so so what I spoke about in regards to fees being available online it it addresses your existing um schedule of written fees however where there are changes that are contemplated to those fees then customers must be advised so advised um and give a 30-day time frame either by way of email written correspondence um publication in the media or whatever the case may be customers must be given at least 30 days notice before those changes can can take effect now um you raise the point about the um coming in line for 12 hours to to we forgot so 2050 cents um query and again you know coming joining the line is just one it's perhaps the most ineffective way to raise a query for bank we would highly recommend that that word queries exist you either call the bank or send an email um to the bank or if you are you want to write a letter I mean that that's that's an option but but some customers just feel that they have to come to the bank um to raise a query and like I said it's the most effective way to do that and just to add this actually um we have seen the the effect of the pandemic on bank lines being longer so this would not help me with the modulus of a run line of these institutions pre-pandemic it is it is because they themselves are impacted quite often by the pandemic in one way or another um I just wanted to mention um does the bank association or ask for a does the bank association or individual banks have have you considered perhaps in in moving toward this more humane impression by the public because we've seen that other institutions apparently waging war on being more humane and loving and you know appreciative and conscious of the of the common man um we've heard tonight so far that banks are only imposed fees and charges to earn a profit but also to protect the interests of the depositors um is there any consideration for moving forward with a campaign or an effort to get the public to understand that it is more than just a capitalist endeavor it is also to look out for the best interest of everyone who has a stake including the population who is a member who makes the process to hopefully begin to engender a sort of I'm with this bank and I need to understand what this bank is doing because they're helping my interests yes Jesse and you are quite correct and I'm hoping that this evening will really be a start of that conversation um one of the things I think it's important that we indicate is the fact that we have seen what has happened in terms of the interest rate on loans over the last say eight years or so um I think all of us would agree that the interest rate on loans have actually gone down um considerably I think um some eight years ago we were probably doing mortgages at about eight or seven and a half percent now the average is probably closer to five five percent um Nigel would have mentioned the fact that we are by by by regulation we are to maintain the minimum savings rate of two percent so what it means is that the bank's margins have been compressed significantly okay in terms of the main line of revenue which is really the interest income on loans okay so with this declining margin banks in order to remain profitable have had to look at non-interest income streams and certainly the the the fees associated with transactions is one is certainly one option um at the end of the day there is the the the administrative cost to banking as I indicated earlier there is of course the tremendous investments that we make in technology our our banking systems all of these have to be offset and um you know it is it is really not a situation whereby the banks can literally give everything away for free um Nigel would have also mentioned a significant cost that banks are carrying right now it is the the the costs of actually making provisions for loan losses every time a loan goes into default or becomes non-performing a bank has to make an adjustment okay um for that loan going bad which effectively reduces on your profitability okay it is it it is something that undermines what we call the capital adequacy of a bank okay and um as a result of that you know banks could actually find themselves in a situation where they're not meeting the minimum of capital requirements that is stipulated by our regulators the eastern Caribbean central bank so this is what we are guarding when we seek to be profitable we seek to minimize losses we seek to recoup all of the cost of our technology our platforms this is what we are guarding we actually ensure that we have a viable institution that we remain in operation um so just to your question we we really need to um accelerate the public discussion on those issues and as I indicated we are hoping that this would be the start of many more to come I think Miss Frederick indicated that we need to go down we need to get to the ground and get to specific groups groups who may not necessarily be part of a forum like this this evening and I think at the last discussion that we had with the Ministry of Commerce we did give an undertaking that we will meet with our farmers associations okay we will meet with our our taxi associations if we have to to explain the issues to them in a very clear way so that they can understand and I think importantly in all of that what banks have been doing is giving customers options yes we public up um publish our fees and all of that but you will find that for a lot of transactions which attract a fee there is an alternative to getting that transaction executed and the fact that you have this notice period of 40 days um for before fees come into effect gives you the the the leeway where you can explore those other options so it's it's quite a bit um Jesse and you know we are committed to continuing that discussion um with the general public okay I want to warn 18 right back to digital finance talking about cyber security and managing some of the risks that are associated with digital finance and talking about the consumer in terms of the consumer being impacted and dealing with scams hackers what have you what the measures what safeguards have been put in place and also taking into consideration perhaps that outsourcing of companies who will provide the fintech service speak to us about these safeguards that are put in place to protect the consumer uh who is using uh Michael St. Lucia act on their phone should they you know be attacked yeah so Jesse it is mandatory that banks invest in proper cyber security systems um I don't think that that you will be able to operate without ensuring that these are in place um and they're quite robust in that regard we we do a lot of what we call um penetration testing certainly the staff of banks would say to you that you know um it is something that is quite common and what we saw certainly over the period of the pandemic was a proliferation of cyber attacks um on financial institutions and other institutions um you know throughout the world um certainly um there was the opportunity and you know obviously the the unscrupulous elements um you know took advantage of it um in our region you would you would note that there has not been any significant issue in terms of a cyber security um attack um or threat and that's because um the cyber security um protection that we invest in are quite robust um I could say that and along with the the the penetration testing that we do um where we actually um deliberately send you know emails to to staff and and see whether or not they would actually fall prey to it by opening a link that sort of thing it's something that we we we we take very seriously in that if persons repeatedly fail those penetration tests then you know they could be called up and um one of the things we emphasize as well is training of our staff to ensure that they're aware of what the red flags are in terms of the various attempts whether they be phishing attempts whatever the case may be we sensitize our staff um to these on a very regular basis in fact it's part of the mandatory training for a lot of our financial institutions that staff do the cyber security training so I say all of this to give you the assurance that there are measures in place to ensure that our systems remain protected um cyber security threats are a real issue not just within our sector but you know in all sectors and um as financial institutions it's something that we take very seriously and we have invested um heavily into just just to add just to add so so i'm just going to what mentioned indicated so while the bands they've invested heavily you know the cyber security systems and so forth a cheer is as strong as its link link and oftentimes the weakest link in the process in the system is that the customers level themselves where where customers may not be as vigilant as they should and and i'll let it get down and share the password or click on link for example if you have a Netflix account don't click on an email asking you to verify your next clicking information right so so customers fall fall for that kind of stuff right and and as a result of that they expose themselves to to that level of vulnerability where the account is compromised so those hackers get access to their account and they may send an email to the bank asking the bank to hire certain instructions now luckily for the bank what we do much sometimes to the annoyance of customers is that when we get emails or instructions we follow people call just to call back and customers may say well i mean don't you know i send the thing but we have to do that to protect those to protect our customers so i mean a lot can be said about about cyber security but what i would say is that if it's too good to be true this probably is so and customers cannot take enough precautions to protect their to protect their their accounts and and and the assets yes if i just jumped in in here also we as the consumer association as the bankers association consumers department have a responsibility also to educate consumers about their online practices which leaves them open to potential threats and attack most times persons use on-secure networks they use several devices and they're clicking here and there but they're not educated about the risk that they themselves are opening up themselves too in relation to going back to work but when we just interject there is definitely an obligation on the part of the consumer but not all consumers are familiar with what is fishing or understand what fishing is number one they can spell the word fishing they would spell it f is h i n g not ph yeah so so that's that's another issue as well so so we can see why it would be our responsibility as well as the consumers but as the people who are offering the service and encouraging consumers to use the the online platform and and and operating the digital space largely we have a responsibility and i was also happy to see that one of the banks had a two-step authentication where you go online and then you get a password into your email but i also realized that at some point for a couple of days the two-step authentication was not working so i was not receiving the code in my email and the bank never sent out an email to say okay the system is down we're working to fix it but during that time there is a risk because the two-step authentication was no longer working but the bank had not informed the public that we are having some challenges as it relates to that two-step authentication which we are working to fix so herring also like issues yes the banks say they are doing but there are also opportunities where instances where the bank drops the ball and there is room to leave consumers exposed and just one example that i myself experienced and i emailed the bank to let them know that there is an issue with the two-step authentication but i never got a response and yes please to add to lend support to what bineha said at the point of issuing the cards i think the bank has the responsibility to let the customer know that they can be vulnerable if the pain is exposed and things of that nature there's a lot of peer that can be done between the customer relations officers at the bank and the consumer receiving that card you can start there when you issue those cards as i'm being i said they may not know of the the risk involved let me just believe that they have a card and they can it's easy access to their funds but it's there's a lot more than that and we know the challenges that they can face how consistent is this with international standards for um provisional information to a customer walking in to receive their debit card or just coming in for service receiving these disclaimers so just see mr jillian yeah um could i yeah i just wanted to say that um you know miss miss harmon is correct but um the reality is we provide that information and not only do we provide it as a in writing to the clients when we hand over those debit cards when the onboarding process takes place our officers talk to the challenges the risk as well as from time to time we send out to clients correspondence to that effect should there be any new you know any one of those new tricks in the trade so to speak that we believe that they may be vulnerable to so yes it is part of our ongoing education but it's also part of the initial onboarding and for instance when you do um online banking there's a whole list of do's and don'ts that advise as to what the procedure should follow to protect yourself for the banks that have mobile apps quite often when you log into your mobile app if there is any change in terms of bank fees any change in terms of the bank wanting to give you a notice to advise you to to be aware of what might be at or their risk um that put you at risk that pops up first um sometimes to the annoyance of customers and a lot of them just click pass it because it comes up before you get your transactions done and i see miss fedrick nodding her approval there because i myself find it a lot of annoying sometimes but you have to go through those because that's our way of advising you hey be on the lookout for this oh we're going to change this fee or here's what is a change that's important to you contact your relationship manager or your branch or whatever so yes we do have systems in place that endeavor to advise our clients of all those measures to protect themselves but some of our people just click pass it they don't listen that they're they're more consumer getting the card and going to the atm or going to the store than really reading it and again part of the challenge we have is all people and i mean i'm not speaking here about the fact that you maybe don't like the social media platforms we simply also don't read because we get a letter with a card that invites us to read to see the do's and don'ts and most people leave the letter in the envelope pop the card once they've pinned the card and activated it they pop it in the wallet and they're ready to go there believe they're fully equipped to do business so that's the challenge we face but again we are working to see if we can keep our clients educated and informed that they really need to to be aware of these things once they do using those services we're running out of time but i quickly i want to get from miss woman we will hear from you miss shillian and mr julian in just a moment but miss woman i want to hear from you before we wrap up on the um some of the policy frameworks we heard from the service providers as well as the um the representatives of the consumers uh on some of the issues and concerns what is happening at the middle ground in terms of policy frameworks at the national and regional level that support consumer rights in this digitization of the financial services sector miss herman my mic was muted sorry um i remember in 2015 there was a regional move to get um e-commerce legislation passed within the region but that has not been fine-tuned within st lucha i should think on another a number of the other member states but there's a move towards having e-commerce legislation in place please to say that we have the consumer protection act which governs the whole um which gives guidance i should say to the businesses in terms of the parameters within which they can conduct business it speaks to freight in terms it speaks to making sure that a bill is issued and things of that nature and it also seeks to protect our consumers first and foremost um there's also um within the region i think there's the within st lucha i should speak to the credit reporting bill as was mentioned by mr metford and mr franzis that um i'm not sure if our legal officer is with us but he can speak a little in that area and another there's another piece of legislation with respect to the securities that too is being addressed and the legal offset is there he can probably speak to that but that's um where we are in terms of making sure that our consumers and those digital finance digital banking um the issues can we address and the issues can we can receive some sort of protection using those pieces of legislation okay we're getting some queries comments commendations from our viewers we have one the automatic alerts feature which sends an sms text message or email to a customer's mobile phone each time a debit or credit card transaction occurs is quite useful in detecting fraudulent transactions we also have a question um why is it that sorry why do consumers have to pay 25 dollars for a mortgage interest letter to file taxes why not email the letters to the customers why are they are charged is this a tactic at discouraging that sort of physical um this sensation bangers i mean what i would say in general is that um you know this this service is it takes some effort um very bad things you know so the bank normally in the past banks they they lend at 10 12 percent and the and the the the the pity pauses at 4 percent those days are gone the interest spreads are so thin now and based on the higher cost of operation now with compliance costs and technology costs and stuff uh banks are to change the banking model and what is happening now is that you know for services that is offered by the banks a fee is imposed for for those for those um services and like i said i mean there's full disclosure those fees are properly disclosed for customers so it does have a specific specific for the mortgage letter i mean i cannot comment on that but in general i mean banks they do charge a fee for the services that they offer okay noted on that um mr shilley you wanted to make a point earlier i hope we it's not lost the time no i mean you know we could we could move on it was really just a point um piggybacking on what niger said but i think we move on to that okay um based on our pre-event meetings that you would know panelists that we have more than exceeded our time this evening i now open the floor for final comments before we wrap up that's what you want to go first so um so you know it was indeed a pleasure um participating in this program this evening um like i said in the beginning we're really hoping that this could be the start of many such engagements to come you know we are committed to this partnership we believe that um the consumer affairs department of the ministry of commerce and the national consumers association strategic partners as far as public education and sanitization is concerned we know you have already audience and we want to take advantage of where you are positioned in order to disseminate important information to consumers so you know i just want to thank the ministry of commerce for extending this invitation to us this evening and just to say that we look forward to um a lot more such engagements um from where from where i said i just want to say that the the banks have a very important role to play in the economic and financial development of our countries a role that we take very very very seriously we understand that there is a lot of there's some negative perceptions about bank and fees and certain things um and we recognize that we have to go and tell our story um banks uh all the banks here present are very active not only we still say that not only um accepting deposits and lending money but beyond that you know things like our corporate social responsibility you know all of us are very very active in terms of supporting the very important sectors of our economy whether it's sports whether it's education whether it's health um you know so many different things that we involve you know we'll continue to do that because we believe that where where the economy goes that's where we go where our customers go that's where we go where our small businesses and our our material businesses go that's where we go and we'll continue to play that that supportive role in the economies that we operate and continue to operate on the premise of full transparency and and really be in the guardian of you know customer protection and and so forth we continue to hold those principles they are near and dear to our heart I will continue to do all that we can to ensure that those principles are live on you know um to the our development and so on so thank you it's been a pleasure I really enjoyed the interaction today I enjoyed the questions that were that were raised really really enjoyed but we're looking forward to many more of those sessions in the future and just to round off on the from our side it was indeed my pleasure as well to be a part of the forum this afternoon I think it's it's it's significant that it comes at this time and we're really looking forward to future engagements I also wanted to just put it in here that banks while it may sound like the stoic type of building and everything else banks have been run by human beings just as any other institution and and you know it is a matter of you know people engaging people and reaching out to us and and part of the the the core of what we do is how we interact with our clients and we have people who walk at our institutions who are husbands wives daughters sons uncles and human beings in the communities so we would also want to try and remove the stigma that the bank is you know this it's human beings that walk at the banks and I believe that similar to yourselves they would also have that type of understanding that we need to reach out to we need to understand we need to provide for clients understand their needs and try and understand the challenges that they face so we're committed to ensuring that not just as an organization i.e the bank as an association but as individual banks and the individuals who work within our institutions that we are we see ourselves as having a responsibility to reach out to our clients to engage with our clients to ensure that they fully understand what they're getting into and that we do the best that we can to ensure that they're protected and that they can make the best use of the products and services that we offer throughout the network of banks here in St Lucia so thank you very much once more it was a pleasure also being online with the other facilitators I really really very much appreciate it thank you. Miss Frederick. Thanks Jesse it was a pleasure to be part of this panel the consumers association will continue to advocate on behalf of the consumers of this country who are affected by some of the policy initiatives whether it's from the bank and sector tourism sector or any of the sectors where consumers are impacted this is something we take very seriously a common thread in our conversation this evening is the need for greater public education and sensitization and reaching out to people not just on social media platforms but being able to reach out to people in the outer districts in the in the communities where you have persons who are not on on on social media and it's not possible to reach them we understand that there is a digital divide that has to be overcome as we move towards pushing people to go online and that may be part of the challenge I've been encountered by the banking sector but with that there comes opportunities and I hope the bank can find those opportunities but the consumers should always be top of mind and I would just like to say too I know we have about 97 participants on this call we are the consumer association are pushing for a membership driver to get the persons to become members of the National Consumers Association so feel free to drop in at our offices at San Susio to call us as to find out what is the process for becoming a member of the association because we are great in numbers and I think it's critical that we have a common voice in lobbying and championing for for the consumers of this country so I'd like to encourage persons to reach out to us from the National Consumers Association and if you have a complaint feel free to also reach out to us as well we do take on complaints and and intervening on behalf of consumers in in that regard thank you very much Jesse and last but not least Mr. Sherman thank you very much Jesse like my predecessors it has been a very informative evening I did enjoy the healthy discourse I would say thank you to the panelists for welcoming our invitation accepting sorry our invitation to be able to bring information on the banking sector the transition from the traditional services into mobile not mobile into digital banking and for them to get an understanding and appreciation of where the banks are and also for the bankers to know where they are falling short so that they can bridge that gap to be able to meet the needs of our consumers as being I said there is the dire need to be able to go into the different local I should say to meet the different stakeholders and to be able to explain to them at a level that they can understand that is very very important people to reach them and for them to get a grasp not using not going back to the same digital setting to be able to get that information but in a manner that they can comprehend and from the perspective of the government being a regulator we will seek to ensure that the necessary legislation the legal parameters that need to be in place are put in place to guide that process and to ensure that whatever is done within that sector beat the banks or even the credit unions that it is accessible to consumers is consumer friendly that they need to address and be protected thank you thank you very much Ms Perman for that one final comment coming from our viewers and the persons who have tuned in registered and actually showed up tonight to be part of this event from Anselm all banks should have easily accessible online platforms to allow customers to complain about for service and hopefully to commend for good service as well but definitely the point taken and it's something that we had discussed earlier on in tonight's proceeding to remove any red tape that may be associated to really making someone who has to voice a concern despondent this has been a consumer education event on digital finance organized by the government of St. Lucia through the Consumer Affairs Department in partnership with the Department of Business Association of St. Lucia as well as the Consumer Affairs Association tonight's proceedings we've definitely seen much coming out of tonight in terms of most most of all the presentation made by the three bankers and thank you very much for elucidating us a lot of the information new some of it you know I have seen I'm sure the others who joined it have seen before but it all helped to paint a picture to give us a better understanding of what our digital finance space is like right now and also hearing from our Director of Consumer Affairs within the Department of Consumer Affairs Harriet Herman thank you very much for weighing in opening first of all and weighing in on the the work that has been done in terms of setting up regulations policy framework that guide government protect our consumers in the middle and also Ms Frederick representing representing the National Consumers Association speaking on the consumer perspective the customer perspective we definitely appreciate that and hopefully this can be as indicated something to continue hearing more of the concerns that I can definitely see based on the bit of research that I conducted that this subject matter is inexhaustible so hopefully we can begin to have this conversation and really really attend to address some of the concerns with respect to the digital finance space here you shall ensure that it is there so this has been an activity as part of activities to observe World Consumer Rights Day to pay March 15th and you know it's like the icing on the cake I definitely enjoyed this evening I hope all 93 participants and you for tonight's activity and you go forward with a renewed mind then as the the the call the clarion call went out from Ms Frederick that you do join the consumers association and keep your eyes and ears your eyes peeled here's out for the work any any work coming out from the backers association in terms of improving and increasing the word on information because there is work happening it's just for the dissemination of information to be a bit more effective thanks again and this is from Mr. Gilliam, Mr. Francis, Mr. Oliver, Ms. Frederick we really do appreciate your time thank you for availing yourselves for this occasion do enjoy the rest of your evening I hope it is a restful my name is Jesse Leons and of course do stay tuned for more coming from the bankers association of St. as well as the department of the Department of Consumer Affairs it is important to look out for that keep posted do enjoy the rest of the evening good bye