 Okay. Okay. So the webinar started, we had 12 attendees. I wasn't sure. If anyone would be in the audience. From the commission. So. We could wait one more minute and see if. Another member joins us, but we do have a quorum. Okay. I just was emailing with them. Yeah. So, that's, that's a good idea. That's a good idea. She's going to, she's going to be able to join us again until January. Her maternal, you know, for her maternity parental leave there. So that's good to know. We can just let her relax. And. No, no, who will we showing up. She said she's following some of, some of the stuff online. But six 30 is not a time that works for. Family with little babies. I mean, it's not quite done yet. I have to go check, but we'll be listening. I thought I could do it. I didn't quite make it. And we don't start till six 35, right? Right. Yeah. The meeting starts at six 30. The continuation's another minute. Did you see my email about the preamble? I just don't know how to read the part that has to do with the continuation of the hearing. Oh, I just think we could just say that's been continued from. September 14th. Okay. Or September 14th or after we didn't discuss it. I have no. Right. At this point was it from September, September 14th that we decided. Okay. Makes sense. Okay. All right. I'm going to dash off. I'll be back and like. All right. Well, we have 18 attendees. And we'll start in a minute, I guess. Okay. And then anybody got to check their email, but I sent out about four. I sent out. Just a word document of all of Nate's questions. In a table formula in case you guys want to. Take notes that way or follow along. I thought that might be helpful. Yep. And then it's almost time. So anyone who's here from the library, there's a guide. So I'm going to start with the question. I mean, it's easier. I think that's everyone. That's six 34. My clock. Well, our panel has grown. Yeah, this is big panel. So it's six 35 now. Should we open? Yeah. Mary. Okay. So welcome everyone to the October 19th. the town of Amherst, Massachusetts. Pursuant to Governor Baker's March 12th, 2020 order suspending certain provisions of the open meeting law, general law C30A, section 18, and pursuant to chapter 20 of the acts of 2021 and extended by chapter 22 of the acts of 2022 and extended again by the state legislature on July 14th, 2022 and signed into law on July 16th, 2022. This public meeting and public hearing of the town of Amherst Historical Commission is being conducted by a remote participation. Members of the public who wish to access the meeting may do so via Zoom or by telephone. No in-person attendance of members of the public will be permitted, but every effort will be made to ensure that the public can adequately access the proceedings in real time by a technological means. A hyperlink to the hearing has been posted on the town's online calendar. And then, Ben, can you just walk me through how to appropriately announce the continued hearing from our September 14th meeting? Yeah, I think that was it. Just say it's continued and then I'll just do a roll call attendance of the commission. Okay. I think we're ready. Okay, so roll call attendance of the commission. Pat, off. Present. Antonia Billenberg. Present. Challenging me with last names here. Heady start up. Present. Mikayla Rassnick. Present. And Robin Fordham, chair of the committee, present. Is everybody right? So. I just pull up so I don't have the agenda in front of me. Do you want to start us off, Nate? Will I pull that up? Yeah, so there's nine attendees in addition to the panel, just so everyone knows who's out there. The, you know, I submitted a bunch of questions that have been formatted. We can share that the screen if you need to. There's an updated presentation from the design team. And I mean, I think we could just start in with the presentation and have questions. I think, you know, I was trying to list everything that may be of interest to the commission and also staff and just that way we can, you know, if there's any additional things we can look at them. And I don't mean, I think that's probably it. I don't know if there's a, if anyone wants to start off. Okay. I'm Austin Serret. I'm chair of the Jones library building committee. I want to thank you again for the opportunity to present to the historical commission. I really want to thank you also for the detailed and very helpful questions that you've provided. And in the spirit of the season, I'm now going to become a pumpkin and turn this over to FAA so they can lead you through their presentation. Hi, everybody. Ellen Anceloni, principal at Feingold Alexander. Thanks for taking the time to meet with us again. We are, we have a slide deck to show you landscape and architectural and Nate, we have answers to all of your questions. They may, it may create more questions, but at least we can start by answering than the ones you've asked. And we're going to try to keep it brief just so we can have time for discussion and to review the questions. So we're going to start with, our slide deck is set up to start with landscape if that's okay with you guys. And we're going to try to keep it to about each, each section landscape and architecture to maybe 40 minutes each. And that'll give us time to chat and ask more questions and that kind of thing. Does that work with folks? Okay, Tony, do you want to kick us off? And Dan, can you share the slide deck? Our partner in crime, Josephine, is not with us tonight. So Dan is going to be helping us with the slide deck in answering some questions if need be. But I'll handle most of the questions. So Dan, can you share your screen or can someone allow- Are you seeing that? Sorry. Not yet. Well, let's try it again. Here we go. Pretty single screen. Is it, no, is it enabled? Sorry about this folks. Is Dan, has he been allowed to share? Yeah, yeah, Ellen, sorry. I just have to, apparently I have to enable this on my end. Which I might not be able to. If you can't get to it, Dan, I can try to share. Do you want to share it, Tony? Let me see if that works. That might be. Oh, awesome. I don't know. Can everyone, am I the one sharing? Are you all able to see this screen? Yes, thank you so much, Tony. That's okay, Dan. We all have technical problems. No, I absolutely can't. So yes, as Ellen said, we are going to try to keep very focused to the questions that were asked as a continuation. So the first part is gonna largely be Rachel's section, but of course this is what we're talking about with respect to the site. And I think we're gonna just have Rachel go right at the landscape issues. And just Rachel, just tell me next when you're ready to move on to each slide. Okay, great. Yeah, thanks, Tony. This first image is an overview of the library and its neighbors. We are on Amity Street and we're next to the Strong House Museum. Next slide. This image is a collection of images of the library today, what it looks like from the front on Amity Street, the existing trees that are in the landscape, the existing stone, and then out back how the grades are actually raised up blocking views to the library and block, and then the existing path kind of loops around the back of the library. When looking at the library landscape plan, one of the first places we started was looking at old photographs of the original landscape around the library. We found some postcards from the 30s through the 50s. It showed pretty sparse landscape with on-street parking. Next slide. This is an illustrative plan of the library today. The areas in the lighter green are lawn. The areas in darker green are planting beds with different perennials and shrubs, and then trees are identified on the site. So there are a number of shade trees on site, a lot of ornamental trees. For the project, we are going to be keeping the two Chinese dogwoods that flank the south facade of the building. And we'll be removing two of three of the shade trees in the back of the north side of the property due to their footprint being within the footprint of the new addition and the regrading required for stormwater. Next slide. Also at the beginning of the project, we were really interested in reusing as many site materials with the new landscape. So Jess in our office who's here with us tonight went out and documented what types of stone material is present and how we might begin to integrate that with our design. So we've got granite, we've got some good slabs of granite, also some Goshenstone pavers and things that we might be able to reuse in our design. Next slide. Also some Goshenstone walls and steps that we're gonna reuse as benches in our project. Next slide. Summary of all the different stones and their sizes and square footage which was helpful for figuring out the design. Next slide. This is an illustrative plan, same view we saw before but with the new proposed addition and renovation. You can see that we have cleaned up the front landscape quite a bit. We've actually carved out two additional spaces out front. There's the children's courtyard area right off the children's reading room. There's a seating area out front for staff. We've reconfigured the parking lot to make it safer and clarify circulation. We've introduced a dumpster enclosure area to really simplify and clarify trash collection. And then out back we're introducing the North landscape which primarily serves as a place for processing stormwater but also provides a garden space for reflection and an area for reading and studying. So this will be the new North entry with a connection to the parking lot possibly a future parking garage. Next slide. This is our renderer's view what that new front landscape will look like. So we have, we've pulled away some of the overgrown planting beds that are around the front kind of blocking view of the library. We've replaced those with a line of Cunningham white rhododendron that maxed out about four feet so they won't require trimming. It'll be easier to maintain. We're going to introduce two magnolia trees out front, yellow magnolias, and then a row of oak leaf hydrangeas and eronia in between the parking lot in the library. And another ornamental tree is sourwood for shade in that staff area. Next slide. And then in that back area where the image you saw before showed mounds and a windy path will be much more opened out. We're going to lower the grades back here a little bit more and provide a rain garden area with stepping stones and seating areas and also a direct access to the library. We will be maximizing the available site for the library to use. And so we're introducing a site retaining wall right on the property line between the historical society and the library. And that's what's shown here. So it starts about two feet high with a railing on top of it. And then it rises up to about four feet high at that corner. Just a quick question, Rachel. In the image right now on the right are those three trees kind of the foreground and then going back, are those existing or existing or are they any of those new? Okay, the red tree is new. That's the south grass. The tree in the very right corner, that's a new swamp white oak. It's a large shade tree. The tree in the middle is an existing tree that will remain. And then the really fuzzy trees closest to the building, that's a birch and a corneal and cherry, which will remain. So those are on historical society property. Thanks. Okay, next slide. One of the objectives of this project is to make it universally accessible and we're really excited about achieving that. So these series of section elevations through the site landscapes kind of show how we're gently sloping blocks up to the entries without the need for railings or extreme ramps. So now the front entry will have a gently sloped walk that goes up to a plaza, which meets the finish floor of the main entry flush and how we are having gentle slopes down to the parking lot area. So both the front and the back entries are fully accessible now. Next slide. And then these section elevations are taken on both the east and west sides of the library, the west side of the library we're actually only providing a sidewalk from the emergency exit on the west side near the front of the building, connecting down to Amity Street and that is also a gently sloped walk. And then on the east side, the area that today is used a lot by pedestrians to make connections from the CVS parking lot to the library and other parts in town will be pedestrian only once it passes the dumpster enclosure area. And that is fully accessible to under 5%. Next slide. We'll be improving the lighting on site for safety and visibility. We are using more of the arm pole fixtures similar to what's out front of the library today, using that in the parking lot only. And then in the back of the property in the north side of the property, we'll be using pole mounted lights like the one shown here. These are designed to be full cut off and have uniform lighting. Next slide. So that's the previous slide, the yellow then are the pedestrian lighting in the whatever if that's purple. The pink, purple, yeah. Those are the pole mounted, correct. And then there's lighting on the building as well, right? But that's the only site lighting. Right, next slide. Some of the materials that we're using on site are intended to tie into the neighborhood and the character in downtown. So the dumpster enclosure, the image of the top, right, is what we would be using for the dumpster enclosure area, more of a Wisconsin style wood enclosure. The railing next to it is the type of railing that we'd be using at the children's courtyard. I think that was one of your questions, Nate, what would that fence look like? This is what the fence would look like. It would be four feet high in front of it would be the shrubs. So from the street, you would not see it, but it would keep children within that area. That ornamental fence is also what would be on top of the retaining wall at the back. So we'll have a consistent aesthetic through both elements. The railings at the front. So there are a couple steps, four steps in the front between Amity Street and the library that are optional. And these would have similar Julius Bloom railings that are similar to what we see at Amherst College. We have to get a variance from the AAB for those or is that are those? Yeah, we typically do. The AAB requires that the end rail return to the return to the ground. The idea there is that they don't want it to like poke anybody, but they have accepted a waiver for this fluted belute. It's called a belute end cap because it's not a hard point. And then even the profile, right? Is it a slightly different profile than they normally would accept? Or is it? It's similar. Yeah, no, it's similar. It's just that the railing doesn't return to the ground or back to the post. And then I had a question about the Dumpster fence enclosure. Is the total fence height six feet or is it six feet to the perforation? And then, you know, it's an additional two feet. So a total of eight feet. Currently, it's six feet to the top of the perforation. However, we do have a retaining wall behind it, which is about two feet. Do you think the, I guess my question is, do you think the solid part of the fence is high enough to cover the Dumpster or will it be visible from the street? From the street will actually be below the Dumpster, so we'll be looking up. But it's something that we could study further and get back to you on. There's a big difference to it, different sizes of Dumpsters. Right, right, yeah. I mean, I was just thinking if you're doing it, you know, it'd be a shame to be able to see then the top of the Dumpster, you know, for instance, if the fence needs to be just a little bit higher, maybe that would be the solution, but yeah, I don't. Okay. I don't know how others feel, but it's just, you know, if you're putting the fence and the idea is to screen it, it would just be strange then to be able to see it through the top. Yeah, we can look at that. Also on this page, we are showing the idea behind the walkway bridge in the rain garden, Corten Steel with railings. They would extend further than what's shown on this image for safety. And then in the children's courtyard area, we're going to be stamping in the concrete footprints and feathers of local birds and ammers. We have 12 birds of ammers that we've identified that we're going to be putting out there that kids can also color in with sidewalk chalk. Next slide. We'll be introducing bike racks on the project, a board front and another set of four in the back. And then we have a number of working tables in the back of different heights to accommodate children, folks with wheelchairs and people who might want to stand. We're also introduced, we're going to reuse a lot of that Goshenstone that we've engineered for into benches and other seating elements in the landscape. Let's see, a maximum number of bikes that can be locked up with the racks that you're proposing. We can accommodate up to 16 bikes. Okay. So two per rack. Next slide. This is a study of that terrace area on the north side of the library. We're looking at how we might bring in paving and seating areas and use a space between the retaining wall in the library for more gathering opportunities. So we're looking at a crushed stone with binder which meets accessibility requirements just to have a different texture. And then cafe tables and chairs and planting a vine on the wall either climbing hydrangea or a or plantas. And then the next slide. And then one of the questions, Nate, was what is cross section at that area? So on the left on this slide is a cross section through the new addition, the library, the retaining wall and then how the seating area slips in between the retaining wall and the library. We do have some catenary lighting to kind of create a more homey oak atmosphere out there. And then we have an elevation of what that wall would look like with the railing that we showed you before and terrace seating towards the left of that section. Next slide. As we were thinking about plant selection for the front and the back, we were trying to keep a refined talent in the front. So lots of predominantly in evergreen base with a slight hint of yellow and purples and whites. Next slide. And then at the back, we're looking at kind of low ground covers that can stand dry and wet environments but also provide seasonal interest and texture and color and be easier for the library to maintain. Next slide. And so this is an enlargement of the landscape in front of the plan that we shared before. So you can see in a little bit more detail how the row of rhododendrons kind of create a room off of the children's area on the west. And that existing Chinese dogwood is incorporated into that hetero. And then on the right, how we have a seating area underneath the sourwood tree. Next slide. And then out back, how we're protecting one of the large existing maples and we're introducing some other large trees that can handle that sort of wet and dry environment and some swamp white oak and sassafas. Okay. Next slide. Okay. Thank you, Tony. So I think if we're ready, I can continue on to the building part unless folks wish to pause at this point and have any comments or questions to Rachel. So I can keep going. I guess the commissioners want to, if there's anything that you really need to know now, you could raise your hand, I don't know. I guess we can keep going. Okay. Very good. So this portion deals first with changes to the existing 1927-28 historic building. And it starts by first identifying the elevation and the areas that are colored in pink here are the portions that will be removed here shown on the left. And this proposed south elevation therefore indicates what is being added. And again, the areas that are identified here and here are quite a bit distance behind this front because these are elevational drawings. From the east elevation, this is your existing portion as it appears now in this area back here will be removed. And the proposed revised elevation here where this portion is new is part of the expansion of the library. And then all the areas in pink occur essentially behind this elevation of the existing library indicating the various masses and elements including portions on the roof as well, which we'll talk about later. On the north elevation, again, this portion is going to be demolished here that is indicated in pink. And then the revised elevation and because the new addition of course is in front of the existing, therefore everything that one sees in this north elevation is new as indicated in this coloration. So this is essentially everything that is represented which we also saw in perspective, rendering that Rachel had shown previously. And then from the west elevation, again, the area that's identified in pink, this portion is being removed. And then the proposed revised design which is seen here in the west, again, everything to the left of this element is all new which is therefore rendered in pink in this particular view. Previously, I think we had just talked about the idea within the windows. The existing window gem here and proposed and the existing window section and proposed and essentially the primary difference is that the windows which are the single pane are is going to be replaced with the insulated glazing units which you can see here. But the essential nature of the details and the appearance of the windows themselves in terms of the grip pattern and the light will essentially be very similar and trying to match as closely as we can to what historically exists. So profile thicknesses, the notion of some divided lights, all of that will recreate the historic appearance but with a much more modern energy efficient insulated glazing units as you can see in this cross section here as well as in the proposed window gem here. There's a quick question on that. So sorry to just keep interrupting but the true divided light, does that actually get you to the like the U factor in everything that you need in a new window? Or is there it does? Yes, it can, yeah. With the right glass and things, Nate, yes. Thanks, yeah. I was into it from my house and it was actually difficult to get there. It's a lot of light, you know. Can you elaborate on what you're asking Nate? What is a true divided window? Well, like right now, you know, it's like if you see the detail above, you know, typically you'd have a wood frame and the glass is inset into that. So the, you know, the wood grill pattern actually goes through the window. You know, it's not like, it's not as if it's just an exterior application. And so on the proposed one, they have both, you know, something between the glass and then they also have, you know, interior exterior grills. So it's, you know, if you look at it, you know, it looks like as if it's a solid piece through the glass. Okay. And we do that, Nate, because many historic commissions request that. So that's why we proposed it. But recently, a couple of years ago and in Boston on a Charles Bullfinch building, the landmarks agreed not to have a true divided light because the technology has come so far that you, when you're looking at, so a window that's not a true divided light, it's got a piece of wood on each side of the glass and then a piece in the center. So when you're looking at it, most people think it's true divided and it's really not. So the technology has come around that that's an option. So if that's an option for us not to do a true divided light and, you know, do one of these applied mountains with a center mullion, we would love that. But we didn't think yet, you know, most times we're not allowed to, but if we, if you guys would consider it, we certainly could. That's considered these, could they call this simulated divided light? So an SL, STL instead of a TDL. So, but Ellen's right, intense purpose for most people that you're almost, it's not distinguishable between one or the other. Is there any way for, it's a little bit hard for a lay person to imagine the difference. I mean, I'm sitting in front of a, you know, a window. Can you zoom in, Tony? Yeah, I guess with the true divided light, what's between the glass? Is it aluminum or is it, what's at the actual material and then with the simulated? It's aluminum. You wouldn't, you, we can't do wood in between there because it wouldn't last. But if you could zoom into the true divided light and this is what, if you have an older home, this is what you're, you know, the one above it, Tony, this is what you probably have. So it's, it's a piece of wood that actually goes from one side of the glass to the other. And it holds, it holds. Yeah. So you've got to plug in. Right, you have panes of glass as opposed to the glass, correct. Okay, okay. So that's basic. So true divided is panes. Yeah. And not true divided would be you have a sheet which mimics the look of the paint of the, the mountains. But, okay, thank you. You would not have the sub-dividing element here. You can see that this is true divided which literally also creates a separate panes but a simulated divide light will have one larger pane but the inner detail from the outside looks down at all. Okay. And if that was allowed, it is a cost savings item. Yes. Right, so right in a simulated divided light, right? If you could see in this detail, right? The glass would just be, it's one big glazing. And then there's interior application of aluminum that sits between the glass right behind the... Correct. Yeah, so it simulates that it looks divided but does not have this piece of element that actually splits the panes of glass, correct? Right. And then, I mean, again, in my own house, I'm looking, I mean, I have an old window here and I have new ones here that have, you know, just the homeowner sap in front ends, you know, that when you are looking at, you know, I was looking at a church up in Sunderland that it's, you know, when you look at the new windows, it's pretty clear that they are not the old windows. And I'm imagining that these are much more authentic looking. Yeah, this for sure is the true divided light will be the closest to being looking like this but of course with a double glazing, it needs to be much more energy efficient. Yeah. But one thing I wanted to say, Tony, is that what is available to us now in the new technology is that they're not quite the snapping, you know, fake applied mullions, they look much more authentic. And if you, if the group would like us to, would consider doing that, we can get a sample, have it shipped up to you and you can take a peek at it. It's really, it's, it's come a long way. You know? But in this true divided light, they're actually a, they're actually a fix to the glazing whereas in simulated divided light, are, is it, is it going to be glued on or will it actually be snapped in if it was a single? It would be, the higher end ones are glued. It's applied, but you can't take them off. It's applied, yeah. Yeah. Yeah, I mean, I don't know how you feel, Nate, but it certainly, I think looking at samples would be useful. Yeah, I work with the local, yeah, I work with the local historic district commission and they've allowed, you know, simulated divided light and even just exterior grills, depending on how far it is from the street, right? I mean, their role is most visible from the public way. This is different in that, you know, different project, different, how it's, you know, perspective and how it'll be viewed. Yeah, I think samples would be great. I mean, I understand it, but I think for the commission, I think it'd be nice to see. Sure. Yeah, that would be, that would be great. Okay. Excellent. Okay, I'll keep going. And I'm coming back to the material portion. So what we've represented here, again, this is based on the rendering and the lower right is your existing library as it is. So various elements that are being called out. So number one, which is the, this is the new synthetic roof on this portion of the original 1927 buildings. We just talked about the new windows matching the existing with the true divided lights that just went through. The masonry will be repointed or at least 50% of it. New gutters and down sprouts will match exactly the existing in profiling materials and new paint as estimated at 10% of the surfaces essentially to make sure that it is looking good. So that is what is identified in the areas which are painted, for example, around here. Tony, can I just chime in here and we confirm this because our team was on site and we've talked to George about it. The existing copper gutters in downspouts are in very good shape and have been replaced recently. So the intention is to keep those and those match the historic profile. So our intention is to keep them. There's one that's damaged that will either repair it or replace a section, but that's good news. Okay. And then looking at the other elevation perspective taken from the other corner. Again, the same thing just identifying here the new synthetic slate roof, the new windows that will match the existing, the repointing of 50% of the masonry. Again, the new gutters and downspouts match existing where needed and new paint again on 10% of the painted surfaces where it's identified that requires treatment. And again, the lower right is the existing image as it exists. And I think the last time I believe a commission member asked we are not living up this tree like this. The tree will look like that, but we just did this in order to make the visibility of what's behind here is shown. But in point of fact, the existing tree is really this so it will largely obscure the addition and particularly this from this view angle. Okay. I think this is one of the questions that was asked of us which relates to the plating windows. And I'll talk, I can talk to this, Tony. So this is the plating window in the back. So the back elevation is just below the diagram. That elevation was changed with the addition in 1990. The windows were shifted, right? So, and you can see if you really look back there, you can see them, they did a terrible job trying to match the brick and the mortar. So this facade has been altered. So what we're doing, that facade, you'll be able to see it in our library, inside the library now as Tony, if you can point out on the plan. Yep, right here. So the idea is to keep it in place, the plating window stays in place, but we cut down the sill to make a passage from the green section of the library to the white. Essentially, I believe it's to the adult stacks. And that, because that was one of the questions that came up. So that's, we've done things like this before and it's successful. It keeps this, most of the historic fabric intact, but it's just our approach to that. And Ellen, you wanna talk about this one as well? So the Whipple window, we know it's important. We are bringing it inside the library rather than try to put it as part of our facade. So we're putting it in this on the double height space. And I forget the name of the room, I apologize. So where our idea is, so it'll help preserve it, it won't be outside. And then we're proposing to mount it on this wall. In the exact location, if the folks are really, if you folks are really interested, we can talk about where to put it in the room, but we think it should be in this room that's high up. So you get the same sense of where it is. Currently, you know how it's higher up on the wall. So will we store the window and bring it inside? Yeah, because is that mounted on the wall, is it actually gonna be served as a window or will it be actually on the face of the wall? It'll be on the face of the wall. Does that mean that it will not have light coming through it between two rooms or? No, okay. Here we're coming back around to just the sense of the addition itself and what we've shown here in the relationship of the historic portion that is being kept, which is in the screen color and the addition in white, which is shown here. And then the red dash outline is the 1990s portion that is proposed to be removed and replaced with a new addition. And this is on the ground level plan as shown in this particular instance. And as we move upstairs to the primary first floor level, which again, this is entered from the historic portion here. Again, the element in green is the historic portion that is being kept and the area in white and is shown as the addition. And again, the outline then dash red is what is going to be removed. And similarly, as we continue now to the second floor level, again, the historic portion is here and what Ellen was referring to before the first floor reading room, this is that double-height bulbous space upon which the question you raised earlier about that window, that window is placed here. And so it is backing up against programmatic elements here. That is why there's not having light coming through. And again, the proposed addition here shown in white and the dash representing the portion that is being removed. And then finally, as we get to the top level three, level four plans, the essential nature of these rooms it retains largely intact, but with the exception that because we're creating accessibility come up to this third-level plan, the elevator does extend up here and it has a small passageway that allows one to get from the elevator and then into this part. Of course, the stair also is being redone here. This is in order to deal with the accessibility issue, but a large portion of this is historic part when the outside is certainly intact and then there's some internal programming adjustments to accommodate program. And so again, coming back to the elevation, so some a little bit more detail that's just zeroing in on the proposed addition. So I know this is probably hard to see here. So what one sees here again in the pink area this is at the front view is what is being added and you can see here what's being called out is various things such as brick cladding on the sod and then there's new synthetics like roof, all the things we identified before with respect to the detail elements, the things that have been accessible entry that Rachel identified in the relandscaping of the front. And then as we get to other elements here, what you see here is some portions, including the fact that there's slope copper roof and the sort of elevational standpoint, the viewpoint of the masonry standing scene metal roofs and then a mechanical screens, which we'll talk about in a minute behind. As we come to the proposed east elevation, again, what you see here is the proposed addition here, which is essentially brick cladding and there is mechanical screens identified here. There is a portion of it, which is shiplap siding, again, which shows up in some of the perspective views and then the synthetic slate roof replacing on the historic. And then here we see, this is the extent of the elevator, the new elevator that emerges above. And then this is the essentially the light monitor that is, again, these are all in the distance. As a reminder, these are just strictly elevational views. And then there are going to be some openings that are infilled, for example, here with brick to match as identified in certain key areas here on the original portion of the building. And of course, all the landscape has been redone as proposed. Coming to the north elevation, again, this is all new on the backside. And again, the cladding is brick. We have the sort of the shiplap siding here. We have the standing seam metal roof here. And of course, here. This is a curtain wall system with the new north entrance shown here. And then in the distance, we have, again, seeing mechanical screens which are identified here part of the elevator. And also pops up here, the light monitor, which is here. This in the great distance is the historic part that you see of the roof that's popping up above all of this. And of course, all of this addition here is lower than this. And as we come to the west elevation, again, everything from this point to the left is all new. We are, again, seeing brick cladding on the facade of the addition. We have the standing seam metal roof here. Again, mechanical screens which are shown and dashed here, here and here. So the ability to create the opportunity for a PV array which is shown, again, dashed in here on the flat roof portion of the proposed addition. So going at it more from the perspectival standpoint, again, on the material basis, on the rear portion, this shows the proposed new as conceived in this rendering and then the existing as we see now. And again, what we talked about previously and had shown, including samples that are on site is that the lower part of the proposed addition is a darker color which is called a cold brick tone here. There is a warmer lighter color brick which is called a slate grade. We have the hearted board siding which you can see on this element here which projects forward of the portion of the massing here. And then we have the standing seam roof which is part of the gameral end expression here and here as well as the dormers here which is part of the same metal clad system. Just a quick question, Tony, on the roof, the flat part of the roof, is that a membrane? Or is that what's actually up on the very top? Helen, do you want to answer that? It would be a TPO roof or an EP-DAM and it would be a white or light gray. And there's no parapet or anything, right? So it really is just the... Yes, there's a slight one but nothing significant. Okay, and then in terms of the materials as we just saw, so this is the coloration of the brick. Again, samples are, I believe, at the library itself. So this is the darker, what we call the cold brick. It has some variation in it. The slate gray brick is the predominant field on the remaining portion of the library which is above this base. The hearted board siding is on the... This projecting element here, which is on the backside, this two-story portion, and then the standing seam roof essentially is covering all the slope roof portions here and here that are visible. And these are just some examples showing the standing seam roof in the nature of the appearance of it. So these are just showing some typical examples. The finish would be a more matte finish, as you can see here, would not be shiny and reflective. And the dormers here would be also clad in metal. All right, Ellen, did you wanna talk to this issue about the slate roof itself? Yeah, sure, Tony, about this synthetic slate because we talked about this last time. So just confirming it's manufactured with recycled materials which we all want for sustainability sake. The warranty is 50 years, which is not quite the same as a real slate, but it's a long warranty. It wins 110 miles an hour variety of colors. And the cost per square foot is approximately $30 per square foot, and that's installed and compared to natural slate, that's 45. And that was a question that came up last time we wanted to be sure we addressed it. So overall the Delta, just if you could stay on the slate, the Delta between the synthetic slate and the natural slate, the Delta between the two products is approximately 121,000. So the real slate, the natural slate is 371, and the synthetic is 250, 250,000. So there is a Delta there. That's like an 8,000 square foot roof then, right? About? Yeah, I don't have the exact number, Nate. I can get that for you though. And if you remember, a lot of the back of the roof we're covering over, so it does reduce the amount of slate. And just folks know, just sorry, we're getting our 75% estimate is being done as we speak. So we'll have some updated numbers on that as well. Okay, and is there two questions? Well, two questions. When you said something, there is a Delta there. I don't know what that means. The second question would be what, is there, I imagine there's a maintenance savings cost over that 50 year, or I don't know. I mean, I guess the slate roof is what, 100 years or? Yeah, you could say it's 100. This slate roof has passed its prime and I know George has paid to maintain it. I can't answer, you would assume the synthetic slate takes less maintenance, right? Because it can't crack like real slate. In the Delta, I was saying the Delta of cost between natural slate and synthetic. Okay, and is there an example out in the real world relatively nearby, where if we were interested in taking a look at it visually, just for comparison. We can get that for you, sure, I'm sure there is. We can get that for you. Okay, great. Amherst College has used it, I think on a few instances. Oh, okay, that's nice and close by. Yeah, Robin, I think the building that they just did on Spring Street, I think it uses the same thing. Oh, okay. Yeah, if I take a confirmation of that, that'd be great. Okay. Great, we'll keep going. And then again, coming back to using the rendering from the North elevation entry perspective view, again, identify the lower portion here is that darker coal brick brick. The slate color brick is the predominant body here. This is the hardy board siding here on the projecting element and the standing seam roof as proposed here. And again, the existing elevation that currently exists now in the lower right. And just a quick question. Some places you say shiplap siding, and so is it gonna have that style, like a nickel, you know, with a gap, or is it butted together, what's? No, it's gonna simulate clavward siding actually, not a shiplap, sorry, Tony. So it'll actually look like. Yeah. Okay. Yeah. And then Makayla had her hand raised from the commission. I just, I think she lowered it, but I just wanna make sure Makayla, if she still had a question. Yeah, I was like, I can't visualize the square footage of a roof, but then the total cost was outlaid for us. Okay. Okay, I'll keep going. Let me talk, if I can talk to this. So this is, we've talked about this with this group, we've talked about this with Sharon, we've talked about this in the office is the book drop, right? And the book drop is critical to the function of the library, especially of the library of this scale. So we evaluated where to put it. Our first idea was not in the front of this building. We tried to put it in the side where one of the existing entries is, but we could not fit the unit that sorts the books in the space behind there. So it's quite lengthy. I'm gonna say it's 20 feet of, so the way the book sort of works, you put your book in, it goes on a conveyor belt and the RFID reads the book. And then it goes down this conveyor belt and it flips it into these different bins. So it sorts the books and it takes a number of bins to get this to work. So it's quite lengthy. The only place we can get it to fit is at the front of the library. So what we've done is we've come up with a couple of options we wanted to run by you guys and get some feedback because we're not married to any of these, but we would like some of your critical thinking on what you think is best. So Tony, can you zoom into the first option for folks? So we've worked with the RFID, the book drop group and Sharon, I forget the name, tech logic. And we've worked with them to find the smallest area that you would return a book in. So this is the size that they're proposing. So this option is cutting the stone and inserting the return in that. It has pluses and minuses, one it has to cut that stone, but it's, I don't know if that's a matter of opinion but it does cut the stone. The second option, if you can slide over Tony, is to use a piece of the existing window, the plus on side of that is we're not cutting the stone. The negative side is it makes the window look a little different. So one option is just to take one section essentially out of the bottom of the window. So one row of lights, bottom lights out and put the book return in that. And the third option is takes that whole bottom sash and makes it a solid panel with the book return in it. So if you could, sorry, go ahead Tony. Yeah, I was gonna say, and I think you're seeing across all of these that the relative placement in terms of its distance off the floor isn't part controlled by what Ellen mentioned, the automatic book sorter. So in other words, there is some control dimensions as to like, well, how far off the floor does it need to be in order to work with the equipment unless it retrieves the books. And that's also part of from the stairs standpoint for universal design. So someone that has some disability can easily reach it. So I'm curious to, you know, what folks on the committee think, what are your thoughts? I'll jump right in. I find the windows much more disruptive to the reading of the building than the book drop of space between the door frame and the windows. And I'll tell you why I feel like I see a lot of historic buildings where windows have been broken and the treatment that you get is they don't bother to repair the window, they just infill it with something and it really throws, it's to me, it just, it throws off a beautiful window. I think that, you know, if there were an option to not disrupt the front facade with the return drop, that would be one thing, but I would much prefer. And I'm, overall, I'm not as uncomfortable with it, it looks a little bit, it looks to me, it looks somewhat natural that you would be approaching the front door and that there would be a book drop too, you're right. So those are my comments and I welcome my other commissioners to weigh in. Go ahead, Pat. Oh, you're muted. I have a tendency to agree with you, Robin. I found the window adjustments to be jarring and that you lose the symmetry of the design. And so I don't know whether there's a cost differential but I'd rather keep the symmetry of the design. And I think the return slot is, although I'd rather not have it in the front of the building is less obtrusive in the stone than it would be in changing the architectural integrity of the windows. Thanks, Pat. I have a question about the drop, is everything going there? So like oversize books, movies, whatever people check out. Yes, yep. So how big actually is that to scale? So I mean, is it like, what is that to mention like? We can get to it, I wanna say it's 14, 16 inches but we can send that on to you, Nate. And what we've done is we've added a piece of trim around it, cause we're gonna have to finish it and make sure it's waterproof and that kind of thing. But we can get you that data. One other thing I will mention as you folks are deliberating, there's also an advantage here too versus this aside from the comments we're hearing from you. When people are returning material, you have to think about how they do this, right? So if they open the material, some people can handle it delicately, some people don't. If you're in a window, there is a slight risk that if someone is not careful and they start to, particularly in this instance here and you just think about this, if you're opening this return element and you jam something in here, you're right on top of the window sash, right? So in jam. So there's a potential risk of the window itself. It's only not here if you take the whole lower part out. And of course, if you're here, there's no concern about that in terms of any damage to the window itself. Any other comments from commissioners? Yeah, I would agree with what both you and Pat said. I think it looks much more in keeping with the buildings like both symmetry and look of what a window is supposed to usually do in a building with the first option. One of the questions was, is there another location in the library? And Sharon had said that it really doesn't work. But I guess, so the idea is that this becomes automated. So no one, you're not, so in some places, the book drops, someone has to collect it and then go put it somewhere, but you're changing that system around, right? So, and is that for, is that just because of the volume of the books or is there a reason? I'm sure Sharon has an opinion, but it saves staff time in its the volume of books. I don't know if Sharon, if you had more to say about that. Yeah, for libraries of our size and the amount of circulation that we do, switching over to an RFID system from a barcode system is standard, standard operating procedure at this point. And so yes, the whole point of the books being returned, they need to go onto the conveyor belt. And as Ellen explained, the conveyor belt really only fits in this front room. And in order to keep the machine as small and as tight as possible, you want the external drop here right at the door for when the libraries close so that patrons can return their stuff. And then you walk in when the library's open and you can return stuff on the inside. So this is the most compact, efficient way of doing it. Heading your comments. I guess I'm just going to say that I think there's something still a little dissonant for me about the book drop return slot being in the old director's office. It's a historical dissonance for me. I'm sure I will adjust. And I think of all the three options having had the explanations, the one on the far left looks the best. Maybe it can be painted gray like the stones so that it doesn't register as this mechanical piece of what is a non-mechanical facade. This facade, everybody is all about domesticity. What we're doing is we're introducing something which is all about how, as Sharon says, the standard operating for a public library today. I did go up to Greenfield and they're not using it in their new library. They chose not to. And it's dissonant to me. It suggests that there's been this big shift and what had been the library director's office is now the book return system, which is mechanical. As I said, I think I'll get used to it so I won't say anymore. Any other comments? I guess I'll just concur with everybody else. I also agree the option one, I feel like it visually makes the most intuitive sense for adding this type of functionality to this building. And I don't know. It kind of reminds me of like a mailbox sort of situation with the visual element. So I think that maybe it could keep that domestic vibe just thinking of it in a different way. Interesting. Thanks, McKayla. I agree with you too. I feel like it has that some sense, bank drop or a mailbox or... All right, thank you. Okay. I think... Thank you. Thanks for your feedback. Yeah, I appreciate that very much. Very thoughtful comments. Okay, I'll just keep going. And I guess, Ellen, you want to talk to this one too. Yeah, well, so this, one of Nate's questions also were a good one. So as Rachel mentioned a few times that maybe this is not the one that we're going to talk about, but I'm going to talk about it here. And then Rachel, you can talk about the baller. So what we need to create here is a library for universal design. So right now, when you go up to the front door, you have to go up a couple of stairs. And as you can see on the, yeah, Tony, just on the right. So what we're proposing, and Tony, can you forward one more slide and see if we have a better... I think this is really... I guess that's it. All right, perfect. And actually the slide before this, we can look at too. But this, so the idea is that, Nate, you're right on. So our new, we have to bring our walkway in our plaza because we need to get to the book drop up to just shy of the sill of the existing building. So we'll be about a half inch at maximum from the top of the door sill. We'll be our new patio or plaza. This will allow us to have universal design. What it does cause us to have the need to take off the bottom plinth of the column, right? And that material that Tony's pointing to, we'll have to take that off so we can install the new patio, which gives us the universal design. So it's just, it's gonna alter the bottom of this on both sides of the entry. So are you also gonna remove the threshold and then put something different down? I mean, otherwise you're gonna have something, right, the actual threshold. Now it'd be lower than the concrete, is that? No, no, no, no, that, our intent, Nate, is to keep the existing threshold. That's the idea. And so that line where the threshold is just, that elevation just comes across. From the bottom of the threshold there, so. Yes. And so how does that universal design? It's not the bottom of the threshold. It's the top of the threshold down within a half of an inch. Yeah, so to your question, Nate, it's cutting right where you see my mouse cursor here. This is part we have to move. Yeah, in order to create universal access, we cannot have a bump or a threshold blocking people from entry. So we do have to create it right here in order to create universal accessibility into the library. So is that wooden piece though, now is gonna be essentially below the? Yes, most of it will be and we'll have to deal with that, yes. Those are like concerned with rock or anything, water? We'll have to investigate what we do, but that existing sill is staying. It's integral to this frame. In the other piece that another question you had, Nate, it is about the door operator. And this is what we've done in the past. Rachel's group brought this one to our attention. This is quite nice. It's a balled mounted push plate. And Rachel, do you wanna point out where it would be in the vicinity of the front door? Tony, it's probably to the left of the entry door. Well, no, the plan showed it on the right. So I guess that was the question. It makes us on the right. Yeah, yes, but we'll have to analyze which side it's best to be on. With the door swing, you're gonna still have it on the right? Probably on the left, but it's either going on the left or right and we'll figure that out. But this is the idea of what it will look like. Right, sorry, Rachel, it won't be mounted on the building. I think that's the important thing. Right, thanks, Ellen. And also for functionality too, we've heard that it's easier to use if it's not attached to the building. So if someone say we're in a wheelchair and they go up to the building to push it and then to get away from the building to get through the door. So having it between the walk and the door with ample room to maneuver is important, whether it's on the right or the left. But it would be possible. Visible though, then, right? I mean, that's higher than any of the shrubs or the wall. It's about 42 inches high, typically. And the wall is about 30 inches high. So it'd be about 12 inches above the wall. Okay, any other comments or questions? Is there just one main door now or is there a vestibule again? So is that operator just for the one door or is it? It's for the one door. And the idea is that interior door will just remain open. In terms of the, I don't know if that's technically considered if those are palasters or engaged columns, to my mind that change is actually more jarring than the book drop. But I'm not sure quite how one, I mean, I certainly understand the importance of universal design, but it's really gonna shift the balance of those architectural pieces in a way that might, as you're approaching them, they might look wrong from a kind of instinctive design perspective, like where did the foot go? It's an interesting conundrum. It is interesting because if you say, if you think, okay, we'll take the bottom plinth off and just slide it up, it throws the proportions off. Right, exactly, yeah. And if you cover it, it disappears underground. Yes, but if you were ever to take the, for some reason, you take the patio away, you could recreate what was there. Right, right, and that is a, reversibility is an important factor, that's true. Right, right. Interesting. Is anyone else having a problem? Is there a concern about water filtration under the door? I mean, at one point there was gonna have, in earlier plans, there was the idea of having some, you know, kind of like plexiglass trellis system, but that's not the case now. That's gone, no, no. Is there a way to get a better visual rendering of what that would actually look like once it's completed? We could do some kind of sketch for you. That would be helpful. I actually think that image right there, if you remove some of the boxes and everything, I think it would actually be, that's kind of, that shows it. Oh, okay. We have to just, for our own construction documents, we have to do details of this, and we're happy to share those with you. Okay, that'd be great. Yeah, I mean, I think between, and again, very appreciative of all the comments. Yeah. I think between the, you know, of course the real significance of universal accessibility for all patrons to come to the library. This design with their new patio here, that Rachel had been describing, with also all the new planting, I think it's gonna be different, but I think it's gonna be quite beautiful, because I think the whole sense of the rival sequence of the library is gonna feel much more, in some ways, welcoming. It's gonna not create barriers for folks of all persuasions to come to your library. I think that alone sends a very, very powerful message. I do think we can handle this successfully and sensitively, and as Ellen said, try to do it very carefully, and to your point, Nate, about the detailing. All of that is really significant. We're gonna have to get into more of this as we develop the details, but we're very aware of the sensitivity of anything that's added to this door front, but I think we can balance the need for that kind of relationship of the design elements and the details against the desire to create a very accessible library for everybody. Here, so just totally not about this, but you know, that plaque on the left side of the door right now. Here. If you're putting the book drop to the right side, would there be a way to replace the plaque? So it's the same dimensions, and then there's some symmetry there as opposed to having two different size, essentially boxes right next to the door. So I think if, I don't know what commissioners think about that, but it's just, I think that would, if you can make the book drop as small as possible and then make the plaque at least be proportional, so it has the same proportions and height and width or length and height or whatever you want to say it, it might help with the symmetry. What's interesting, Nate, that you pointed out, great observation, actually, to my eye, I actually think the kind of more bronze color of the plaque actually disappears more even into the wall and maybe because they're just so used to seeing it, but you know, the fact that there's so much variation on the stone, right, with the colorations from grays, the darks, the browns, I think having something which sometimes when things go a little darker, they disappear more than something that's right. So I think when we look at the book drop and certainly the comments are very well taken about the color of that and the sensitivity about how it looks against the stone, I think where we certainly can look carefully at what material feels like and how it balances against, as you said, Nate, the plaque itself. Yeah, no, that's a good comment, Nate. Do we have one more slide, Tony? I think the next, I think this goes right to the roof elements that we have a couple, we have several more elements to go through. So should I just keep going? Yes, so this is showing you the roof screen again, one of the questions from last time here. So what we're showing in yellow are the outline of the roof screen. So we try to keep it, it's higher than the equipment, right? So that's the mission to your comment earlier, Nate, about the trash bins in the fencing. This, the idea is this, you're not gonna see it, you're gonna see, and Tony indicated that on our elevations, that you're gonna, this is, you're not going to see the equipment, you're gonna see the screen. Right, and we have some perspectives coming that just shows the different points of all of this. So as you go into this, for example, this is more in-house 3D modeling. So here, you can see where the element is set, as Ellen described here, is where they pop up in various views, but it is pretty discreet in terms of what this looks like. So what is that material though? So there's been instances where someone will have it be like a louvered. Yeah, we have something to actually see right up in here. We have something to show you, Nate, that's coming. Yes, yeah. So I will show you that. Good question. Yeah, it's very good questions. So I'll just keep going through the view so you can see the various impact. Again, from this angle here, looking at the other corner, this is the mechanical screen that Ellen pointed out in terms of this portion. And then from the straight on side elevation, again, it essentially almost really disappears. And particularly depending on how close you are to the building, it's really almost not visible at all. And again, taking from this, the proposed new addition in the back, you can see it showing up here. And again, depending on how close you are to the building, it's varying degrees of visibly or not. And I just want to just say why we did this in this white model because we can't actually do professional renderings of each of these elevations. It's just not in the budget, but we were able with our Revit model, we were able to do these, it's called like a clay model. So that's why we're showing it in this way. Oh, no, I mean, I think I asked for, I think that's fine. I mean, we've done that before in other projects and it's a lot easier to do this, right? I mean, I don't know, I won't speak for the commission, but for me, I think this is a lot really helpful as opposed to an elevation too. So I don't see it as a, you know, in a gray scale or it doesn't have to be rendered all the time. Okay, thanks, Nate. And then as far as the material question, Nate that you guys, this is what is being looked at. I don't know, Ellen, do you wanna say anything about this material? No, this is material that we've used before. And again, when you're on, this is, and again, we can get you a sample. We have a sample in the office. When you're down at an angle, you don't see through it, but I think we should probably send you a sample just so you are, we're on the same page. Cause Nate, I'm with you. I've seen roof screens that actually don't do anything cause you can see through them. But we need to add, we need to allow air through them. Here, and it's metal, of course, in terms of material. Yeah, for maintenance, yeah. Maintenance, yeah. And then I think we just have a few more to go through. So as we come back to this, of course, this is just a reminder of where we are in terms of design. I think this constitutes the last image in the presentation today or tonight. Yeah, and if I could, and then we can take questions. I just want to be sure we get to Nate's questions. I want, and then I'm sure I'm going to get some more questions from this, but I think we answered a couple as we went through it. The interior, could interior storms be used to allow the current windows to remain? Interior storms are occasionally used. We don't recommend it for energy use, right? One of the, as we're getting more into, everybody's getting more into sustainability. The biggest heat loss is through gaps in the facade. And these old windows in the, I don't know, Tony, can you go back to that window detail? Yeah, you showed it right. You're going to insulate inside the... Yeah, we insulate the weight pocket. It's much more efficient. And that's why we don't recommend them. And it's, over time, it's a maintenance issue for the building owner, because people try to take them out and try to open the window. So that's why we don't recommend it and that we would not propose it for this building. And, Nate, you mentioned, see the preservation briefs about materials substitutions. Did you have any specifics on that? Not necessarily. I mean, I think, you know, Hedy had sent it along, and I think it's relevant to, you know, the roof, the synthetic slate. And then, I mean, I think that's probably about it. Okay. And we, yes, we do have that. And then the cost of the slate roof installed, or is it just a material? The cost that you see, our estimator does install, it's for the materials and installation. So it's both. We talked about... Oh, sorry, Nate. The slate roof, though. I mean, so you said it was, it's past its life. And so, there's no way to patch or repair or anything, it really will be... And I think George is on, I think he's been patching and trying to repair this thing for a long time. And it's just, it becomes a maintenance headache. And what we try to do when we leave a library is leave the maintenance much less than it currently is. And that's, it's beyond that. We would love to keep it, Nate, but it's beyond its useful life. We talked about... Oh, go ahead. Yeah. I mean, just want to stay on the slate roof there. So I just own a house that is sort of kitty corner from this one on the corner of Halleck and Earth Prospect. And we had a slate roof there, it's gone now. And, you know, as a homeowner, everyone I would talk to would say, oh my God, slate roof maintenance maintenance. I had a guy come every year to replace some slates. And it just kept going. So, but I also understand the higher cost of slate. I guess my question is, if you've got a 50 year synthetic roof and if, and I don't know this, but if conjecturing that a slate roof, a new slate roof was 100 years with that lower cost maintenance over time. I put a new roof on the house that I live in now, I can't remember what it cost me, but I won't have to touch it until it's dead, right? That's the big difference. So you pay everything all upfront and then once you have to replace it, you have to be figuring that in. So I guess I'm curious if, if you were to compare apples to apples, would a new slate roof be over a longer lifetime? And therefore, the cost differential would be a little bit. You'd have to kind of move things around to kind of get them to equal out for that same lifetime. Does that make sense? I know what you're saying. So the warranty for the synthetic slate is 50 years. That's not saying it has to be replaced in 50 years, right? That's the warranty. It's hard to predict how much slate will need to be repaired. It depends if a branch hit it or somebody walks on it or someone throws at it and it cracks. And it could be anything. I mean, slate, the synthetic slate is a synthetic product. It's not a stone. It's less likely to crack. So I don't think we could really evaluate that over. I don't think we could do that for you is to figure out which would cost more over time because it's hard to figure how much maintenance it'll need. What we can do, which we did is share the initial cost. Okay, yep. I mean, I just think that, I mean, definitely slate has a certain, it has a certain look that, I guess, I haven't looked at a lot of buildings with imitation slate, but you missed something. And that's my question. Yeah, I mean, I understand the cost issues around it. So, excuse me. Okay, we talked about the book drop. What is the material of the elevator shaft in other roof protrusions, roof monitor? So the elevator shaft, can you point to that, Tony? Yeah, it would be added in one of these views. Oh, I'm sorry. So those mock-up views that we were looking at three-dimensionally, like, for example, I believe it's here. Yes, so that would be the cloudboard, the hardy cloudboard-style cladding. The monitor will be, you won't really see the monitor. Yeah, you don't really see it. You don't see it. And that will, what we have to do, so it's glass and then it's a lot of flashing to keep it watertight. The two ends where we don't have glass will have, most likely, the same cloudboard siding. But you know, on your plan, on your plan, sorry, in a few places, you say shiplap siding. And I feel like the example you showed with shiplap and it wasn't, you know. I think we're still reviewing this. I think our intention originally was shiplap siding because we were looking for a more clean aesthetic versus clackward siding and the sides of the clack, and the sides of the siding itself is of a larger dimension than a conventional house siding. So the moment we were looking more in that kind of plan, it's not clackward siding where it's overlapping. Well, that's what, so this is what's happened. So this company has discontinued the line. That's the shiplap. So with Tony's point is that we're still trying to sort it out, which we could do. Because, you know, public bid, we need three equals. So that's the challenge. So the preferred is shiplap. Yeah. I mean, I would actually rather not see clackward siding. You said to me it becomes, you know, it's like you're trying to mimic an older style with a newer material. I'd rather see it be butt joint or shiplap or nickel gap so that it's really modern and not trying to replicate something with like a six inch reveal or something that really isn't what would have been there. So honestly, like, we agree with that. May absolutely. There's a place, you know, newer building and they did vinyl siding. And at one point they were going to do concrete. And honestly, I wish they just stuck with concrete and done something more modern looking than, but you know, you know, vinyl siding on something that was. Yeah. Yeah. Just for the rest of us, the difference between, I know what clackward is. I'm not quite sure what shipboard is, but just a quick description for our other commissioners. Or is it shiplap, shiplap? Yeah, I think the. Is it in that, is it in the slide deck, Tony? I don't know because of that level of detail. I think in order to understand, I was trying to look it up on Google to give you an idea, is an example of what it profiles at. So essentially there's no protruding overlap. Right. Let's see if I can find something to share. And you'll have to, if I do share that you have to ignore the color of it, that's not what we're proposing, but I will give you a better sense of the materiality of it. Let me just see if I can find a good image for you guys here. There you go. Well, the interlock, Tony, that section that shows the. This one. Keep going down. Yeah. They actually, no, on the other side. Oh, here? This one? On the larger, on the larger set of images to the left. The other frame to the left. There we go. And then scroll down. Just one? No, keep going down, down, down, down, down, down. Right there, it shows you the section of the siding. So it's almost like a tongue and groove. They just butt together and there's no overlap. Right. And to Ellen's point, when you look at the detail, you see this, it looks, it's essentially quite flat and there are reveal joints and that's why they call shiflap because they're literally overlapping each other as stock elements and they create a very, very clean and in a more contemporary look. So it is not clap for deciding which overlaps each individual piece and the dimension of this does tend to be of a larger scale, which we are also believe is more appropriate given this is an institutional library, not a residence. Thank you. Okay, I'll stop the Google search. Okay, thank you for that. I'm thankful. I was trying to get something to you. You can look at. Yeah, yeah, that was good. Yeah, I was gonna annotate it even, right? But right, I mean, shiflap, you're gonna see, it's gonna look something like this, right? With that little joint that Tony showed. Yes. Whereas your convention of cloud board siding, you have, I don't wanna say like a Christmas tree, right? But you have that reveal. Yeah. With the overlap and then a butt joint is just gonna be something straight down and there's no gap. And so, yeah. These are good, and they can we keep these details on this? Yeah, right. It's kinda neat with Zoom, you can do that. Yeah, thank you very much. That was a very clear explanation, yep. So to continue with Nate's questions, what is the siding material under the area with the TPO roofing? Is this shiflap? And that is on, that's a, that was an issue with our Revit model. It's not shiflap at that point. So what, yeah, so that's an, if I shared my screen, one of my questions for everyone was on- I can stop sharing. You know, in one, this visible just right here, there's, you can see a little bit of a roof here. And so the question was, what is this material? Right, so we have been, we've been since we've finished this presentation, we've been investigating it. We're showing it as TPO, but there looks like there's lines in it. So right now where we, as of yesterday, we're thinking of copper. So that slope is too low for slate. And we don't wanna see a membrane roof at that location. So we feel it will, we will most likely end up with a flat seam copper roof right there. So as most of you know, I'm sure copper goes in as this shiny copper color. And then within months, it becomes brown. And it's not till years and years and years that it becomes green. But that's what we would propose here. It's just, we didn't think the rubber, the, you know, that kind of roof is appropriate for this location. The new exit door mimic the curve. So this is, yes, this is the one, thanks, Tony. So this area right here, so the slope, because we looked at this. So if you look at the slope on the right-hand side of the scambrel roof, there's a bend to it, right? So on the left-hand side, this is an existing condition. There's no bend till you get much farther further out. So to make, to mimic this roof, we would have to take down some of this masonry and rebuild it and cut it back to match that, if you can understand what I'm saying. So if you see the break in the roof when it extends, Tony, can you use where the crunch is? Yeah, I'm not controlling this one. This is, I think. Oh, Nate. Nate is presenting this, yeah. Right there, Nate. I know you're saying like, you know, this level right here is a different, right? It's a different point. It's a different, essentially, spring point. And that's why we couldn't, we honestly tried like heck to get it to work and we couldn't. So the one on the left never matched the one on the right. So our thoughts are just using the same style, but we're not able to copy it. But we were on thinking the same thing as you were. And then the question is, what style of the new exit door? And we assume, Nate, you were talking about the doors in the addition. Right, so right here, there's an exit door. There's a new one, you know, on the different East and West. Yes. And, you know, would they somehow match us on the 28 building, or would they just be completely different and match each other? Completely different and match each other. So everything new will be new. Everything in the addition will look different. And that we find is just strengthens the historic character of the existing building. And I think we covered all your questions. And, you know, we're happy to, it's thank you for giving them to us ahead of time. That way we can prepare properly to answer them. I think you did as well. So I don't, unless the commissioners have any, anything else, you know, I went through the plan and staff looked at it and we, I developed that list just so we could, you know, try to address things that may be asked tonight. I just have two quick questions. Or one is a comment really just about the Whipple window and the fact that it won't have light through it anymore. I was curious what other commissioners thought about that and whether there was any possibility to reuse it in a way that it wouldn't be a dead window, I guess. And then this is kind of a larger question and it could be answered at a later time, but I've, I don't recall which tax credits, if any the project has intending to or has applied for. And I'd be curious to know that and have a discussion about what the review of the scope of work through those applications would look like just so that we could have that information. So the, the lever has hired a consultant, Epsilon to apply for state and federal tax credits, Sharon. No, just state. We decided not to go for federal. Just state and that application is in. They had a few questions for us and we responded. So we're waiting to hear back from them, I think in December, Sharon. I agree. Yes. We're hopeful. Okay. Thanks. So on the Wipple window, is there anywhere else? There's in the addition where the window could be that would let in natural light. In the, not in the addition. Not in the addition. No, we don't think it's appropriate on the addition just because it's so historic. One thing we could look at is maybe illuminate. We could, we can figure out anything, but we could, we could almost do it like a lay light. You know how a false lay light is just lit from above. So we could maybe figure on, maybe we can light it from behind some way. I mean, would that be something that your folks would be interested in? That would probably be an easy thing to do. Would be happy to do it. Wouldn't be cost prohibitive or anything. Brad, did you have a comment? I'm mute. I was thinking about whether or not it could be backlit and just answered my question because I think, you know, architecturally it's an interesting window historically. It's an interesting window, but it's a window. And so for it not to have natural light as Hedy was suggesting, if it could be backlit, we would be able to benefit more from the architectural aspect of it. And there may be some way to highlight the historical nature of it as well. That's certainly something we could, we'd have to run it by our committee, but yes, that's something that we can easily accommodate. Thank you. Sorry, just as you guys were talking and thinking a lot here and places just me thinking a lot. So the window location, you can see this is the area that Ellen has been talking about, right? This double height vaulted space, which the window at the moment we're showing on this wall. However, maybe if it's placed on this wall, and again, I'm just talking a lot. I'm not suggesting we can do this yet, but you can see here, given the ESL program here, if there were a possibility of actually thinking about suggesting something that actually could even open the window to this ESL room from within here to here, we can take a look at that. And I think Ellen's suggestion affects the sense because it's a practical way and maybe doesn't work in section to do that. Right, Tony, we didn't catch you up. We looked at this yesterday. And we've been working with Sharon in the where we're gonna locate artwork in the building existing artwork. And right now there's a painting slash mural on that wall. Because that's exactly where we went initially. And it seems like that mural works well there. But Sharon, I don't know if we could consider moving that. We can look at that, but at a minimum, I believe we can backlit it and at least illuminate it. Yeah, okay. I didn't mean to derail the conversation, but it just, as you guys are thinking about it too. No, that was helpful. Yeah. Yeah, okay. I'll stop sharing. Do commissioners have any other questions or comments? Could the backlighting change colors with the seasons or something at least? Yeah, we could certainly do that. Yes, orange. Yeah. My only comment, Robin, is just to thank everybody for the careful attention to detail on our questions and attention to the integrity of the new addition to the historic building and for presenting it so well to us over two meetings. Yeah, agreed. Robin, before you close with us, again, I want to thank the Historic Commission for the care and sensitivity that you've displayed in reviewing our plans. And I also want to say something that I think it's important to say, when we chose Fine Gold Alexander, we chose them in large part because they had a demonstrated record of doing what we wanted them to do. And a big part of that was historic preservation. And what we found in working with Fine Gold Alexander, I think you've seen demonstrated tonight, which is responsiveness and creativity. So we think from the point of view of the project, but also from the point of view of everybody's interest in historic preservation, that we have, if not a world-class team, I would say a Boston-class team. And we're really grateful for their work. Thanks, Austin. Thank you, Austin. Robin, I'd like to have a motion from the commission saying that they find that this is consistent with the restriction and the standards, just so that it's not left a question, really what kind of what the result was of this. Okay, do we need to get a public comment at this point, Nate, or? Yeah, I mean, it is a public hearing, so I guess we have to have, we can allow for public comment. Okay. There was some earlier, you know, in the previous meeting, there hasn't, you know, there was one, everything's been posted, there hasn't been anything too recent. Okay. If anybody in the public would like to make a comment at this point, raise your hand. You see seven attendees right now. I wanna recognize Jane Wald. Can you? I think you can get some of yourself, Jane. Okay. Thanks. Thank you for recognizing me. I've followed this project pretty, with great interest from its inception. I'm sorry, I know you, but can you identify yourself for the sake of it? I mean, yes, yes. I'm Jane Wald. I am executive director of the Emily Dickinson Museum, former member of town meeting, and a former member of the historical commission. I am also, as an employee of the Emily Dickinson Museum, I am an employee of Amherst College. So I want to offer a disclaimer that I am not speaking on behalf of any of these organizations, yet I am calling on my own, 25 years plus in working in historic preservation. And I may refer to some experience of the Emily Dickinson Museum, but in general, I'm offering my comments as a 37 year resident of Amherst. So I have a number of comments and I'll try to go through them pretty quickly. First of all, the project with the Jones Library in my mind as a long-term preservationist is a little bit more like a rehabilitation than a restoration. And I think that's an important distinction to bear in mind, that we want to make this building functional for our current and future users. My first set of notes discusses the simulated divided light versus true divided light. And historic preservation is now running headlong into sustainability. That's an important nexus. And I know that there's a difference between the cost and the energy efficiency and the risk of failure of one-to-one replacement of in kind of historic windows. So I think the distance from the street view it makes a difference in the choices that the library and the historical commission may consider. The description of the selected lights, the appearance seems good. And I presume that those interior, exterior and between glass components don't apply to the new addition. But I think they would be acceptable for the 1928 building. Next is a little bit of experience with a slate roof. I'm intrigued by the new synthetic roof, the new synthetic slate roof proposal because I know that historic slate roofs are extremely heavy and extremely difficult for structural integrity of a building. So I'm all for a synthetic slate roof. The Palladian window, the discussion of the Palladian window, the architectural and functional treatment looks really good and makes sense to me. The Whipple window as an ornament, but not a functional window that is transmitting light, that's a little bit disappointing. And I would really endorse finding ways to make it functional or at least backlit. So it looks like it has a function. I think, I wrote a bunch of notes about the appearance of the rooftop construction, the light monitor that tracks from, at least on the elevations, tracking from the 1928 building on the east elevation, but I'm satisfied from the pedestrian view that it's not visible. I think that's a really, really important thing to consider. The copper roofs and the copper gutters are just great. That's terrific. For the book drop, yeah, I agree with everything that commissioners have said and vote for option one as the least intrusive on the facade of the building. Universal design, I think I heard that there was a one a half inch difference between the patio level and the threshold. And I assume that meets universal design. In general, I think it is well worth it to create a completely accessible and equitable entry. So the notion that there might be lost, the footing of the pilasters is not as concerning to me, especially if that historic design element can be represented in some way. The ballard mounted push plate, it could be mounted on a rougher surface that is in aesthetic alignment with the stone front of the library itself. But I don't think that's necessary. It's just maybe just integrating the ballard with the stone front of the library. And then my final thing, the shiplap siding. In Amherst, in the mid-19th century, the shiplap siding was actually considered flushboard siding in Italianate architecture. And that could speak to some of the historic houses down Main Street that do have Italianate flushboard siding. So that seems like a really great idea. Thank you for hearing my comments. Thank you, Jane. I see that Marty Smith has their hand raised. Can you let them in? And there we go. Yes, thank you. I'm Marty Smith and I have been an architect for about 50 years. I've worked at the university for over 40. And I have been a town resident for almost 50 years at this point. So just to give you a little bit of... I'm also on the disability access committee for the town. So I would like to commend the design team for making this building truly accessible from both the north and the south end. I mean, no one knows what's gonna happen on the north end, but assuming it will at some point be parking, residential, who knows? But having access to the front door is incredibly important. And I think the book drop solution, number one, is absolutely the only acceptable solution because it looks purposeful. Being in a window, it's not purposeful. It just seems like something you did to solve a problem. So yes, you've done a great job with that. If you wanna look at a synthetic slave roof, there's one at the visitors center at UMass, which was built at least 30 years ago. It's probably not the slate composition roof you're looking at today, but it will tell you how really sturdy these roofs are. I don't believe there's ever been a leak from that roof and it's well over 30 years. And it is much lighter and it will help preserve that old structure in the old building. And finally, I'd really like to see you look at raising the plinth of that plaster. One of the things that bothers me about the front entrance is that there's a differential from the top of the decorative plinth to the line of the window and the door and the little side lights. And I think if you pick all of that up so that it's level, so it matches the header and it gives you a bit of a plinth, I think it will look really original. Losing that plinth is to my mind, and I'm not a historical architect, I'm an institutional architect, but losing that plinth is really unconscionable. So I'd like to see you look at that, ask the committee back again about the proportions, but I think the best proportion is to just move that all up. So everything aligns across the header of the door and the midpoint of the door and gives you a plinth because with that a plinth, it's gonna look like it was a botch. So thank you very much. I think Fine Gold Alexander's done a great job and I appreciate the ability to talk about this. Thank you. If there are any other members of the public who would like to make a comment, raise your hand at this time. And I'm not seeing any, go ahead. Tony, can you share the screen again just to show that front entry? Just so I'd like to see what Marty, I'd just like to see that what she was talking about. Tony. And Marty, I think you're right because that did cross our minds and we can look at that. One of the things that we will definitely look at that because we're on the same page as you. So see the side lights are there. I think if you move that where your cursor is, if you move that up, so it lines up with the side light of the door, it'll give you enough of a plinth to give you a base. I think it'll look awful if we shorten that plinth. And I think it'll actually make it more sense because if you look across the header of the door, it matches the bottom of the column cap. So if you look at that, I think you can line it up and give it. And then those side panels will have a base because without a base, it's gonna look awful. It's gonna look like, yeah, we raised it and it didn't work well. I think it's a really astute observation and I think that's many things that just make a lot of sense. And I think that adjustment and sensitivity to reconstituting the pilaster and rebuilding a base back will make it feel as if it was always there. Yeah, I think it will. Yeah, I think it's a really good observation. Thank you very much. Thank you. Thank you. Nate, I'm not seeing any more hands raised for public comment. So I think that our last juncture, you were suggesting a motion from the commission. Yeah, I mean, I guess, there has been a few things mentioned that could come back. And so I'm not sure how the commission feels. So there was the Whipple window, if we needed the slate, if we wanted to go see any examples of slate roofs, there's some middles in terms of maybe the windows or certain things, the book drop, if there was some final discussion about color or materiality, I think that I agree that darker will recede, right? So sometimes they're nice and shiny steel and it's like, okay, there it is, or it could be something reminiscent of the plaque. I think the front entry comment was really great. I mean, I kind of agree with Jane with the roof monitor and some other things. I don't think it's gonna be that visible when you're actually on the street. It's just an elevation. It looks like it's a six foot tall protrusion. And so I think that'll be okay. We are seeing more of that in town, right? Where people put things on the roof, they don't have much of a parapet. And then really you can see all the mechanical equipment. It's really just actually like another story on a building. And so, staff's getting more aware of that and how to treat that. And whether that's with different design. I don't, from everything else, I don't have many other follow-up things. I think it was just those that I mentioned unless there's others that the commissioner would wanna see. And so I don't, to me, that's, is that, do you want them to come back? Are we okay closing this and saying we've heard enough or are we expecting something radically different with one of those things that we'd wanna wait? And is this our final meeting or do we have a meeting to address changes to the interior? So there's some historic fabric in the interior that I know when we walked through it, we had concerns about. Yeah, so this is really just with the preservation restriction. So it's only the exterior in the site. It doesn't really go into the interior. So, I think with the preservation restriction, they give examples of what's considered major or minor alterations. And so from the site, it's removal of mature trees and landscape features, which I think has been done really thoughtfully. There's a few mature trees. There's changes, obviously, to the site. And then in terms of the existing building, we're looking at the slate, the windows. And then with the addition is altogether new and then there's new mechanicals and other things. And so it's not a straight preservation process or a project and I think, Robin, we had discussed that. And so I think that the interior standards allow for this. So unless there's like certain things that the commissioner really would like to see back, it's really just the exterior and the site. So yeah, definitely within regard to the preservation restriction, that's our duty. I was thinking of the interior more as just an advisory conversation and having those two things be separate. So focusing on the preservation restriction now, I'm just not sure how we would structure a motion. I'm happy to put one, I'm happy to so move one. Do you wanna just give us the language maybe, Nate? I mean, I would just say something that it's consistent with the restriction and the standards, National Park standards or it doesn't, I don't think it's, has to be too detailed. It's really, it's something that we will create a memo, kind of a summary memo of the two hearings and it'll just go on file so that if we did this before for the Memorial Gardens in the rear and it's just something that we keep and it could be also made available to the public in the library, it's just something that we can track when the restriction has been reviewed. And so it's not, it's not like we're making findings per se like we are with a demolition review. Right. So I would make a motion that the material, again, I'm not quite sure of the language material presented today or that the historical commission finds the plan consistent with the secretary of the interior standards for rehabilitation. And approves the plans as discussed with the caveats that around the windows and the WIPA window, the exterior windows and the WIPA window. And was there a third item, the book drop? Drop, yeah. In the front entry door, just that the change in. Oh, right. Is that sufficient for a motion? I think it works. Okay. So I need a second. I'll second the motion. Thanks, Michaela. And then we need to offer the opportunity for any further discussion before we go to a vote with commissioners. Does anyone have any further comments? Okay. Seeing and hearing none, I'll go with the roll call vote for the motion before us. I'll start with Heady. Aye. Antonia. Aye. Michaela. Aye. Pat. Aye. And I will vote aye as well. Motion passes. We're six tonight. Six to zero. No, five to zero. And do we also need a motion to close the hearing, Nate? Yeah, I guess we could do that too. Okay. So I move that we close this hearing regarding the preservation restriction with Jones Library. Second. And any further discussion? No, I wouldn't really have a further discussion there. Let's do a roll call vote. I'll start with Michaela. Aye. Pat. Aye. Antonia. Aye. Heady. Aye. And myself, I vote aye. So that closes this hearing. I think we'd say a huge thank you to all of our presenters today. That really great discussion and thorough and sensitive. And we so much appreciate all your input. Thanks so much. Thank you very much. Thank you. For your thoughtful comments. We're much appreciated. Thanks everyone. Thank you. Thank you. Thanks for your time. Well, this is one of our couple of our commissioners. I was, you know, we did have a public meeting after this just to one, you know, just to have a quick discussion. Did we lose Pat and Michaela at the end of the meeting? So now we're below forum. Yeah. So we could just adjourn. You know, my only thought was just to talk about the research for 45, 55 self pleasant. Looks like Heady's already doing that. So, you know, we have a little bit of time. I just wanted to just kind of keep that on the radar not like, you know, I haven't done anything else either. Just, I want to make sure that we, we keep on that. You know, I know Tom Reed usually follows up and we asked for a few things. So that's all I just want to make, you know, make sure that doesn't fall off the radar. Okay. Yeah. So technically we're adjourned right now. The other thing I was just going to ask me is if what the appropriate follow-up would be to ask the company about their experience with pursuing tax credits and other funding sources, just so that we have case around whether or not a rehab of a building is, the people come before us and say it's not feasible and usually what they mean is it's just not feasible financially and pieces out there. I don't quite know how to ask them, but You mean the library, you mean the library project? No, I don't mean a library project. You mean the South Pleasant Street, but just in general too, as we go forward and, you know, for buildings that look like they could be rehabbed or opposed to demolished. A lot of times the answer we get is it's not feasible, but that usually means it's not that it's not physically feasible, it's not financially feasible. Yeah. I mean, I'm assuming through the discussion with the demolition hearing that, and I already asked Tom previously before that we would have a structural engineers report on the building, interior photographs and other things. And so I'm assuming we'll get that. Yeah. I mean, I think the building actually almost to their detriment, right? It's been maintained from the exterior so it looks pretty good. But I'd love to know, right? How structurally sound is it, all those things? I know there's floor elevate, there's differences in floor elevations on the interior. And so even trying to get people inside is you almost can if you make improvements to it. So it almost has to stay unimproved because to meet, you know, new code, accessibility codes, it's almost impossible. I know that the building commissioners looked at it actually said it's really, really difficult to make that building work. If, you know, with any investment you're gonna trigger A, B, you might have to get seek waivers for a lot. So, you know, those are the things that, I feel like it was communicated during the hearing and I can always follow up with Tom. So Robin, if you wanna, you know, I think you sent me an email, but if you have another one, I'll follow up with Tom and Barry on that. Okay. And thank you for doing this. Yeah, sorry. I was gonna say thanks for doing the research. And if you need any help, let me know. You know, I was looking at old sandborn maps the other day, just trying to see if there's any notations or anything, but there really isn't. I was looking through old photographs too and I was just trying to find something, but I, you know, I didn't. So I... Well, I'm satisfied now that I've found a good document in the town history about the space being there, even if it isn't appearing on the sandborn maps and I'm coupling that with two other kinds of evidence. So essentially, I've got three different kinds of evidence now to suggest the concert hall space in that back L. And I, when I did a walkthrough, I didn't really feel like there were lots of really big changes in level, but I think that speaks to Robin's point about tax credits that where you have a building that is historically significant for the town, in that location, it's possible that there could be money there for the developer and the owner to work with. A commission standpoint is that it's that, you know, it sounds almost like the, as you said, the building commissioners is that in the title, right, Nate? Yeah, yeah. But, you know, having somebody, when we're having these inspections for demolition delay, having somebody like that to come in and explain to us, who's not the developer, you know, to explain to us the difficulty, because I think we need to know, anytime something goes wrong for demolition delay, they just say, like, you know, it can't be done, you know? It's falling apart. It's, you know, I mean, that's the standard answer. And, you know, sometimes, you know, you can trust that answer a little bit more, but for us as lay people, to have a somewhat disinvested party to be able to come in and say, well, here's why, it's financially not feasible. I mean, I think that's what we need to hear, is like, what does financially not feasible mean? Because pretty much, if you have enough money, you can do anything. But, you know, can you do it within the scope of what's realistic for our town and for that building? And I would feel better when we have those types of hearings to just, you know, to have it on the public record, where, you know, if somebody's looking at these people, much more thorough explanation. Yeah. And, you know, I mean, I think you can give us good input too, but really it's that, you know, that other person who understands buildings to say, you know, you'd be looking at, and I mean, also now I see people take advantage of grant funding. And I also know how hard it is, you know, that you really need to work with a consulting company to, you know, the tax credit process is exhaustive and you have to be a different kind of developer. But I feel like if we don't ask those questions while looking, we're not getting the fullest answer for the public record. Yeah. Does that make sense? Yeah, yeah. And I think, yeah. I mean, I'm hoping during the delay, we can get some of these answers and a bit more information. And it's, yeah, I think for the future, we could always, you know, continue a hearing if we wanted to get that or, you know, we could, I mean, we just changed the bylaw, but you know, it's hard to acquire certain things, but it'd be interesting if we are seeing more of this, you know, do we change the bylaw and say that there's certain pieces that are required of an application? So is it an engineer's report or something more than just, you know, the word of the applicant? And so, you know, it's, we probably have to, you know, have a waiver provision, but you know, like, you know, when you apply to the planning board, we require a survey, stormwater management report prepared by, you know, an engineer and all these things. And so, you know, I think right, what we're seeing with demolition is people are looking at maybe buildings they hadn't in the past because of the way the market, the housing market or real estate is working today. And so, yeah, it's kind of interesting. I was, you know, I often feel like we ask for things that is optional for an applicant, but maybe we need to, you know, we can put it in the rules and regs. And so that doesn't change the bylaw, but we could make it an application requirement through our rules and regulations. Yeah, I mean, I don't want to make it, I don't want to make it owner us. You know, I don't mind asking for anything, you know, but it's sort of like, you know, if somebody from the public is sitting and watching the hearing and following, you know, or, you know, if I talk to somebody on the street about it, you know, I can say, well, you know, these are the things that requested. We had good input from the building commissioner that, you know, wasn't really a feasible rehab project from a financial standpoint. I mean, I think that that's, you know, even in the, you know, in the secretary's standards, you know, there's a little thing that says, I was just looking at it when it says, you know, economic viability is, you know, and viability is different from, we can't do it. So I'm fine with somebody saying, we can't afford to do it. You know, and then, you know, yeah, something to back that up. Right, well, I think like A-15, A-15 Main Street, you know, the one down, you know, almost a Pelham Road, right? It's the house right on the road that we allowed to be demolished, but the owner had been working on it for like two years. Yeah, right. So they had photographs, he had, you know, one or two reports from contractors. And then the neighbors even said, you know, we saw him working on it for two years and it just wasn't really possible, right? You know, he showed us the damage, the, you know, he stripped it down to everything and it just, he couldn't make it work. And so, you know, to me, I felt like, okay, wow, even that, you know, you'd like to see something be saved, but I feel like they had actually made an effort. Oh, and I think being able to go into that building in the basement, I mean, even as a layperson, once we got into the base, you know, it's your 17 different support structural systems that aren't really working in tandem and, you know, so that was, that was useful. So, yeah, okay. Well, those are just my thoughts recently. I mean, I guess like are the buildings here that we'd really like to see somebody try to, you know, put those financial packages together, like they're doing in other parts of the state or, you know, it's an East Hampton where they're turning the, you know, shells of mills and to condos and, you know, is that realistic for us or not? But, you know, just to have a kind of a more clear picture and more comfortable with. Okay. Thanks mom, guys. Good meeting. Yeah, we didn't schedule our meeting, but I'm happy to send out an email up to this. I mean, I did have, we know that Adalyn's back, they'd be joining us in January and we had a quorum. I can't remember. I think that KLI didn't get an answer from, but I'll just look for, but I would also, that was a Monday, so that's the 13th of November. And I'd love to try to schedule our meetings on Mondays. I don't know if those are good days for you, Nate, but my feeling is that as the chair, having a slightly different level of responsibility with all the information that comes in, I've been working at Boston on Tuesdays and Wednesdays and trying to pull everything together for a Thursday and stuff that tries to do. Before 6.30 meeting is really challenging. And I'd love to have a meeting because that would leave me like, you know, kind of the weekend to get most of it organized and be more prepared. So what is your general meeting schedule for Mondays? That works for me. That works for me. I mean, we can. But no, it works for me. I, you know, I have usually three Wednesdays. A month and then two Thursdays. So Mondays are good. Usually I'm, usually I miss the housing trust or some other meeting for this, this for the commission. So, you know, it just means I'm still going to go to a meeting. It's just. Right. Okay. All right. Yeah. I'll send that out and we'll put it on the calendar for the 13th. All right. That's it. Thanks guys. Bye. Thank you. Bye. Bye.