 Excellent. We demystify what goes on behind the therapy room door. Join us on this voyage of discovery and co-creative conversations. This is The Therapy Show behind Close Doors podcast with Bob Cook and Jackie Jones. Okie doke, welcome back to the next episode of The Therapy Show behind Close Doors with a wonderful Mr Bob Cook and myself Jackie Jones. And today is episode 130. Good God. I know. I know. And what we're going to be talking about today is how to present ourselves in the therapy room and does it really matter? They're good topics as well. Yeah, I think it's a really good one this one. Right, so let's talk forever about this. So how about you start for a moment. You start. What do you think? I think I touched on this in the last podcast about what my perceptions are of a professional psychotherapist and what they should be and whether I meet that criteria. And I don't think I do. So from your frame of reference. Yes. Do you remember back when you went to see your first psychotherapist? Yes. Ever. Right. So do you remember what they were dressed in? Or how they presented? Yeah, yeah. How did they dress and how were they casual? Were they dressed in a suit? How are they? How did they present? Do you remember? More mature, I would say, than what I do. My first supervision was in a suit. Yours. When I first went to a supervision, they were in a suit and very professional looking. But my own personal therapy. Yeah, just mature. What I wouldn't say a mature person would look like. Smiling because I have no idea. A mature person look like. So I'm smiling because I really don't. See, this is what I think it's about. I think this is why I asked the question. It's horses with courses in a way. Yes. In the sense that. A good friend of mine came over is the other day. Our daughter's godmother, Josie, we talk about the class system in the United Kingdom. And she comes from Mauritius. What a lovely place. She spent about 30, 40 years here, but she came over from Mauritius when she was about 20. And we're talking about that. And she asked me, were your parents, which class did they come from? My adopted parents brought me up were very upper middle class. My. Josie's parents were very lower class. I think that's what I think. I think that's what I think. I think that's what I put even though it's in Mauritius. Yeah. By that standard. And then my wife's would be working class as well. Yeah. I don't know anybody from the upper class. But I do know from those two classes. Now I think. How you're. Brought up with the values. Of the class system will determine. What you project. In terms of what you expect. Yes. I believe generally most things. Yeah. We have an internal frame of reference which comes from. The values and belief systems usually that were brought up in. Yeah. Can agree with that. Yeah. So I think the sort of. That's why I said it's horses courses. Because I think you will. Project on what you expect from a therapist or professional. Whatever. From your values and systems. From the class system that you've brought up into. So having said all that lots. I think. People will project on to what they expect from the first therapist according to their histories. So from my history. I expected somebody. To be fairly casually dressed. Somebody who spoke quite well. Somebody that probably had double degrees. Somebody who. Right. You say mature. I didn't think I'm mature. Went into it for me. But it was certainly. They wouldn't be. Slovenly dressed. They would be people who didn't speak very well. Yeah. People that's. You know didn't have a sense of decor room so. You know those upper class. Or upper middle class values. Probably was known as so instilled in me. That I would project that way. Where are you on that now Bob. I've had a lot of therapists now so. I don't really have that so much but I would. I think I still expect. Any therapist that I work with. To not. You know have a sense of. You know I'd want them to have a sense of decor room. I wouldn't want them to be uncouth or slovenly or. Smell. Bad breath or something like that. Yeah. To have a sense of. Appropriateness in how they were. It's interesting. It's an interesting topic, isn't it Bob. I'm just thinking about the people that I was in. The group with when I qualified and whether I would. There was some. People maybe upper middle class in that. Because they used lots of big long words. But yeah, it's just really interesting. Yeah, see. If we take the theory. That we inapt our history. Then. The values beliefs. From our parents or people brought us up. Will be so instilled in us. Or might have gone against them. Take a usual frame of reference. That we probably expect our therapist to fit into that. Yeah. If that makes sense. Absolutely. See when I managed to step I said briefly. You didn't really say much at all. I said I'm going to talk about this podcast. That's my wife. And she suddenly said, Oh. I want somebody who's slovenly dressed or inappropriate or. You know, she also said. She wanted them to have good hygienic habits and things like that. So she had a clear vision in a way. Of what she would expect. I think that I had didn't have a long time to talk to before I came on this podcast. Anyway, I didn't really think about it in terms of presentation of dress. Sense or appropriateness or values. But I do think. As I'm talking to you now. That it will fit into my. Significant others. Values. That I came from. Yeah. I'd expect my therapist, by the way, to be more knowledgeable than me. This is my parents. We put on to me. Yeah. The purpose to be. As I said, very appropriate to be able to speak well, have connection. I've tripped double degrees. All these sorts of things. That scares me, Bob, when you talk like that. I'm a psychotherapist and I am none of them. Yeah. But that's values, I think. Yeah. And in the end, the question really of this. Podcast is, does it matter? Yeah. Absolutely. Well, I think the answer to that is yes or no. Yes and no, actually. Yeah. Because if you go to a therapist that. You're expecting the therapist to be a certain way. Now that could come from your training. But if the therapist doesn't fit into that image. You actually might not come back. Because if we actually talk about the importance of building up a therapeutic relationship. And the building of a working relationship. So the person feels safe and secure in the therapeutic process. Yes. Then they have to come a few sessions to talk about the therapeutic process. Yeah. But if the therapist doesn't fit into that image. You actually might not come back. Because if we actually talk about the importance of building up a therapeutic relationship. Then you can come a few sessions to get used to the person. Yes. So if you turn up and that therapist doesn't speak to you in the way that you think they should do. Or they weren't. In your frame of reference. You actually might not go back. Or so and. The working relationship will take a long time maybe to. Build. Yeah, I get everything that you've said. But if. If I'm working with somebody as in. A therapist. Or a supervisor. It's kind of like I've got to. Get the right energy with them. Rather than qualifications and things like that. I need to get them if I don't get them. Then it doesn't matter who they are or what they do. It's not going to work for me. So I'm kind of more drawn to energy than. All the other stuff that you've mentioned. That makes sense. That's why I think it's an interesting reflection of this. Because. Does the, the energy in word comes that you'll talk about. Whatever that means for you. Fit into your. The class system that we're talking about. The frame of reference that we're talking about. Yeah. Does it somehow fit into that? I don't know. I don't think it would work for me. In a backwards way. If that makes sense. Status symbols mean a lot to me. In my family. Yeah, yeah. So for me in order to feel comfortable in a room. I've got to feel like that we're on. The same level. If somebody uses big long words. And. Tries to befuddle me. Then I don't think it would work for me. And that does. I need to talk plain English in order to connect with me. If that makes it otherwise it alienates me. That's right. And I suspect you've come. And this isn't no disrespect at all. I don't know your history that much. But I suspect you come from the working class system. Absolutely. Yeah. So that fits into the working class. Backtations doesn't it. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. What we're talking about. Yes. Yes. I don't know. I don't know. People to use long words. Yeah. I see. Literally. I have a physical reaction when you say things like that. But when you were saying a double degree, I'm like, oh. I. I. I don't know whether anybody's walked into my therapy room expecting me to have a double degree. And if they did what. They thought when they saw me. Well, I use double degree as a sort of. Meta for somebody who. Absolutely. Yeah. Has high intelligence and usually it's been to university or something like that. And somebody who's highly knowledgeable. Somebody who's more expertise than me. Yeah. Somebody. And that's really. I think an apple class. What. Yeah. Middle class frame of reference. Yeah. It's a really interesting topic. This Bob. It kind of fires me up because I can remember. On my training course. I'm not sure whether I was the only one or there was only a few of us that didn't actually already have a degree and had been to university. Me being one of them. Well, that's not because to get on to the most tiny programs now. You need a postgraduate level seven. In other words, you need to be at a degree. Yeah. The only other way you're going to get on is social work. If you've got a social work degree, a teacher's degree, a probation degree, or you fit into some sort of X, you know, some other sort of type of bracket in the caring professions. So you're right. Most people have had a degree or not the, or even the equivalent of a degree. Yeah. So you would probably fit into a different back, different sort of process than a lot of your colleagues. Absolutely. Yeah. Yeah. And in your training, you might never discussed what we're training. You know, what we're talking about here. However, I bet if you had. You'd have been. Interested in this discussion from the, the point of a week, if you were talking about it now. Yeah. Absolutely. But in a strange way, I think I, I don't know how I would have felt. Being in that group. After the conversation, if that makes sense. Yeah, because. Yes, I can understand that. Because you might have felt you didn't belong. Absolutely. 100% without a doubt. I would have thought that I shouldn't be here. Yeah. And. As I said earlier on, does all this matter? I think it does matter. You see, I think matters as a conversation. Anyway. Yeah. Yeah. And I do think. We often pick our therapist according to the script. Of our history. And the script of our history will be. Largely played out by the people brought us up. How. How does the I'm okay? You're okay fitting to all of that Bob. Wow. Gosh, that's an interesting one. I don't know. It's behind the question. What's behind the question? Just what I was saying earlier on where I don't think I would have felt like I belonged in the training. And. If I was, you know, if my therapist was using big words and. All that sort of stuff. I would put them way above me. As in status in that room and it certainly wouldn't be. I'm okay. You're okay from my point of view. I don't expect to stay there. No. No, that's what I've just said. But it's a big thing for me in the therapy room that it is, I'm okay. You're okay. And we're both on a level in. In that room. Yeah. So I think most people come to therapy. Jet their own scripts onto the therapist. Now. It's. You know, we've had a podcast once before about is therapy a middle class profession. Yes. Yeah. I've been talking about it and I think it is. Yeah. Lots of reasons. And one of them, of course, is the recruitment of psychotherapists. I usually people come from middle class professions. Probably been to university. Or have that type of education. And I suspect they do have certain expectations, objections about therapy. Yeah. I think I'm okay. Well, it's interesting because if we go to where your clients that come into you, they probably have middle class backgrounds. I just suspect do they? Or don't they? I don't know. As you were talking, then I was just thinking, rather than looking at it from my point of view, and how I would feel going into a room with somebody, what class are the majority of my clients that come to see me? And they're a mix, to be honest. I see somebody that's very educated, and they've been to university. And their job is an architect, but an affiliate architect or something, they're quite high up in what they do. And lecturers and school teachers, but then also other people that are classes the same class as me. Well, trainees, well, not just trainees, but I think a lot of people project when they're going to therapy. What they expect from a therapist in terms of what we've just talked about, having degrees, having, because it takes a long time to get trainees to cycle therapist and it's a middle class profession. So they would expect the therapist probably to come from middle class profession. So they would project that onto you before you even begin. Yeah. Now, the fact that you don't, may or may not come over, people may or may not ask you that. I think that would probably be the projection. Now, it doesn't mean I'm correct, it's just... It's a really interesting topic. It's a conversation. Yeah. So how many people can afford that aren't middle class? Yeah. And afford therapy anyway? Yeah. Therapy starts off anywhere from £55, £50 upwards an hour for therapy. That's going to be £200 a month if you go once a week. How many... They're going to be well paid, well-earned people that come to therapy. So they're going to probably project onto you anyway. Yeah. That frame of reference? Yeah, it's really interesting. Because even just, you know, taking out the class system and education and all that sort of stuff. But the way that we look, I know we've had this conversation, I don't know whether you remember it, way back when I was doing my training about business cards and I always put a picture of myself on my business cards. Oh. And you instantly said that that's not something that you would recommend doing because people, you know, automatically make assumptions about you and everything. I still put my picture on my business cards now. Well, it would have been, I would have said it was my personal view. You did? Absolutely, yes. We'll put the pictures under their business cards and it may or may not work for them. I simply said I don't, simply because I think that people will see people's photographs and they will project onto them, whatever. But for me, it's really important that I know who's going to open the door at the other end. How would you know who opens the door at the end? I don't understand. Because if there's a picture on a business card, you know, if I was the client going, I would know who was going to open the door. So that's my frame of reference, that I want them to see me as familiar from the get-go, if that makes sense. Oh, right, from that sense. Does the picture do that? I don't know, it does for me. I've obviously projected all my stuff onto this conversation, Bob, yeah. I don't think it does for me. I've never thought about in the way we're talking now, perhaps I have, but anyway. No, would I want to, would, hang on, if you had a friendly picture, rather than a severe picture, would it be more likely to go to the friendly picture than the projection of the severe picture? Probably in the end. It's an interesting thought though, isn't it, Bob? It doesn't mean, but it doesn't mean in terms of what we're talking about, middle-class and stuff like that, because you can have somebody who's very friendly that's not fit into your frame of reference at all. Absolutely, yeah. Unless, of course, you're stroke-starved and you need somebody who's going to give you lots of strokes and be friendly. That's okay, by the way, it might help the working relationship deep and faster. Does all this matter? I tell you what, I still say it does all matter, because of what is needed, which is a robust working system between the therapist and the client. If the therapist, for whatever reason, doesn't fit into the frame of reference of the client, they may or may not come back. Yeah. Or the working relationship takes a lot longer to strengthen. Yeah. See, I think they're not like to come back, because if you went to a therapist that had a conversation full of long words, so and on the back of the seat on the on the wall was a degree in whatever, another degree in whatever degree in psychotherapy, it might frighten you off, you might never come back. Absolutely. So do we need to adjust to the different clients that we have then? Yes. Would it be enough? It would mean that I do believe the client would need to come back so that in the hour the therapist does enough to persuade the wrong word, but I can't think of another one, but at least to put over that they are compatible in some way. Yeah. It's really, it is a really interesting topic because, you know, if we need to adapt to meet the client, are we being authentically us? Well, I use the word compatible. Yeah. I'll still say by that, but let's go back to what I think is another really important podcast we could have, which I think we may or may not have, by the way, is does the cloud, by definition, always adapt to the therapist? And is that a bad thing anyway? That could be just another podcast we have, but I actually, if I was doing a podcast on this, I would say, well, I think clients by definition always adapt to their therapist for quite a while. I was thinking the opposite. I was thinking the therapist adapting to the clients. Well, both. Yeah. Okay. I just find it a really interesting conversation, but I think the therapist is more likely to be themselves because they probably feel they're more in a secure place within the power dynamics. Probably they might be, you know, more in touch with their adults, so they've got more chance perhaps to be there in their adult. But if they come from an integrist like a therapist I do then achievement would be very important. They may adapt in the search for achievement to get some level of connection for a therapeutic relationship. Yeah. Same as adaptation. Interesting. Yeah. But I do think clients adapt. They're much more likely to adapt. Yeah. It's a different world in the therapy room. It's such a unique experience what actually goes on. I'll tell you what, I think clients adapt much more than the therapist. I'm not saying the therapist doesn't adapt because they're searching for achievement. Yes. Yes. But it's far more likely to adapt because they're usually frightened. Yeah. In other words, they're usually moving to a place where they're going to therapy for the first time in the level of scare or apprehension and they feel probably more out of control is a place where the client will probably over adapt to compensate for all that and then the therapist's job is to help the client feel more secure in those early sessions. Yes. Yeah. An interesting podcast which I think I really would like to have would be something like this. Is there ever any reality in the therapy room? Ooh. That's a deep one, Bob. Are we just writing that down? Are we just seeing what we want the other person to be anyway? Wow. What's at the top of your head? What's the answer to that? It's a long podcast. That's an easy question to that. But I think people have to stay in therapy quite a while to work through those levels of adaptation to get to any sense of authenticity where they can actually see the therapist as a real person. Yeah. And maybe vice versa. Yeah, because I think there's a certain expectation of what you're going to be like or what therapy is going to be like. Mm-hmm. And what about the various disciplines from psychoanalysis right the way through in the humanistic tradition to client-centered counseling where quite often it's trained or drummed into the trainee or new therapist depending on their model they come from not to share anything about themselves but actually all that's left is the client's projections. Yes. Yeah. I want to say does that work? Well, in a therapy session, I don't know. It's an interesting question because you've had years and years of psychoanalysis built on that and in the client-centered world also, you know, counselors are trained not to share themselves either. Mm-hmm. There's a service where that's talked about a lot more but, you know, counselors often if they fall back on their training don't share themselves that easily. Yeah. See, I think I'm okay in the therapy room sharing if it's for the good of the client and I always check in first if I'm okay to share something that I think might help or is relevant or it is. Yeah, that's one of the reasons why I didn't connect very well with person-centered counselors. You see, you know, I think all this is really important I'm going back to the times of the podcast does it any of this matter? Well, if I I don't work as you know individually clinically anymore even though I do some good therapy sessions but if I had turned up to some of my clients in my I don't know Manchester City outfit for example and I started lying down in the client's in the actual rooms or any of these things, would that matter? Would it actually benefit the therapy? Because let's see perhaps a sense of humanity with the therapist. Oh. And I can picture you doing that at certain times Bob just to mix things up in the therapy room. I did do lying down quite often to do exactly what you thought. Maybe not on the first initial session but I can see you. You really need me well. Yeah. But I think it all does matter especially at the beginning because you need to get a sense of a working relationship going where the client has a deep enough relationship with you to stay in therapy. And to go where they need to go to. Yeah, absolutely. It's an interesting conversation to have with a client am I what you expected or something at some point to see. Yeah. Well I have had that conversation many many times and usually they say no. Yeah. Not what I expected at all. But then as time went on and I heard rumors about me or knew about me or whatever it is then I turned into the more eccentric person they had expected me to be. But stroke and I do think there's a lot in frames of reference congruence and what we're talking about here so that the client stays around long enough to have that therapeutic relationship and hopefully both of you see each other a little bit more in a real way. Yeah. Because that is what this podcast is all about is to pull back that curtain behind the therapy room and see what actually goes on in there. And I think as a therapist I want to do that with therapy anyway. Yeah. Okay. So here's another one. So if I put on a suit I've only got one. I usually had the last time I had that was my daughter's wedding probably another suit for a funeral or something like that. But if I put a suit on and a tie on and that became my sort of regular uniform for seeing therapists I would have felt so uncomfortable. Mm-hmm. Would I have been effective as a psychotherapist because I felt so uncomfortable? I think I wouldn't have been able to do therapy well. Yeah. I felt comfortable. So that's the other thing I wanted to say. I think if a therapist needs to present if we put it that way in the way that they are comfortable with. So there's a sense of realness in the process. If they attempt to dress the way they think they need to try and make the client stay, it won't work. Because they'll feel uncomfortable. Yeah. So if you feel uncomfortable. I know people by the way who did therapy suits all time. I know people, friends are very good therapists who have both ties and goodness knows what because they're fitted into their upper class backgrounds. So if a successful therapist don't get me wrong. And they felt comfortable in that. They felt very uncomfortable in corduroy, trans, casual, tie or whatever you want to say. But because they felt comfortable they're more likely to be real. And because they were more likely to be real and feel uncomfortable clients would stay with them longer. Yeah. I understand. I think that is a big thing. See, you were talking a lot then you know, comfort and being comfortable and I would use that to describe you when you were saying about wearing a suit and a tie. I would describe you as a comfy jumper. And that's how I feel when I'm with you that I could share anything. I wouldn't feel judged or whereas if somebody sat there sitting upright with a shirt and tie and a suit on. I would instantly feel like I was being judged. That's a really important thing in it. And some people who come from a different background wouldn't. Absolutely. That's what I'm saying is horses for courses. And for me I dress very casually and for some that's okay but for others I would imagine that they think I'm not taking it seriously enough. Or they could project whatever onto you. That's what you just said there. And I've known clients who have left therapy for exactly what you just said that their therapist wasn't how they expected the therapy should be. So when you say further world, what do you mean by should be? Oh well, you know, X, X, X and X. And do I fit into that? No, but I heard you were very good. Because they've had some sort of transitions before they come in the mood. So I think it does matter. I think the most important thing I would say though is dress how you want to dress, present how you want to present where you have a level of realness and comfortability and the rest will follow. If you do it the other way around I don't think it will work well. No. What a very interesting podcast Bob. It's a discussion I didn't have much in when I trained people really and certainly not on my training but it fits into script, doesn't it? Yes. The idea of script being we enact out our histories, eject out our histories and then we follow them like a tenacious whatever. Unless we can change our scripts cure isn't likely to happen really. Yeah. So it does follow script theory. I didn't ever train this way in this discussion in the weekend on script but now I wish I had. Yeah. It's a really interesting, again Bob it's one of your, the topics that you come up with it's a really good topic. And the next topic I feel is on a par with this one which is are some feelings acceptable than others in the therapy room. Very interesting. Yeah. So until next time Bob. Bye bye. Speak soon. You've been listening to The Therapy Show behind closed doors podcast. We hope you enjoyed the show. Don't forget to subscribe and leave us a review. We'll be back next week with another episode.