 Awesome. Well, we have reached the point where my anxiousness at sitting here in silence overcomes my desire to make sure that we're just waiting for folks to, waiting for folks to come. So I'm going to get us started. And thank you so much to everyone for joining us. Thank you so much to Corica and Haffet and to our amazing interpreters, Nora and Shannon and Nancy, our card captioner. So the goal of this is just an informal conversation about sort of the first year of IFRA featuring two of our fantastic fellows, Corica and Haffet. And I'd love to just sort of like let them talk a little bit about kind of their backgrounds, where do they go to law school, what brought them there, and sort of what are the kinds of things that they're interested in as a way of sort of teeing up some of the conversations that we might have about the First Amendment space more generally and about their time at IFRA. So maybe Corica will start with you, if that's okay, and then go to Haffet. Yeah, that's fine. Hi, everyone. I'm Corica. I'm a third year law student. I originally started at the University of Washington in Seattle, and then I transferred my second year to Cornell, so that's where I'm currently at, what brought me to law school. I've actually had to answer this like quite a bit since I've been like a teaching assistant for this law class, and so I've had a lot of undergrads acts like, what are you in law school because they're interested. But basically, I pretty much always knew I wanted to go to law school like looking at lawyer movies. I was like, oh yeah, this is what I want to do, but I took three years off, and I worked out a nonprofit in Seattle in the technology industry, and I was like, oh, I actually really like technology, like I wonder if I could do something around that area. And so, yeah, ended up going to law school and figuring out that I wanted to do something around technology surveillance. And then I did the IFRA program, and I was like, oh yeah, there's connections between First Amendment and technology surveillance, and I was like, yeah, so that's what I want to do. Awesome. Thank you, Corica. Quick question before we move on to Haffet, the top movie that inspired you to go to law school when you saw the lawyers in the movies. Legally Blonde is a perfectly acceptable answer, the fact that's my answer, but I want to provide you the opportunity to share if you want. Yeah, I think Legally Blonde is probably, that's like top of the list for most people. Surprisingly realistic. Yeah. Fantastic. Awesome. Alright, Haffet, do you mind basically introducing yourself, sharing a little bit about your background and what brought you to sort of law school? Hi, hi to everyone. My name is Jaffet, I'm 24 years old, I'm brought me to law school. That's a hard question, but I really think it was this interest for, I remember at first I have an interest in employment law, so on labor law and all this, and I think that like get me into just considering law school. Currently, I am doing a JD MBA program at the University of Puerto Rico and a graduate of school business administration, that's what I've been doing for these years. Awesome. Thank you. So I want to sort of open up with a pretty broad question, which is, and Kurike, you talked a little bit about this already, but like, the First Amendment space is super, super broad. Even if we only talk about the bits of it that are freedom of expression, we ignore the other four parts of the First Amendment. I totally know how many rights there are in the First Amendment. So what kind of work interests you in this space, like what is some stuff you're excited about or interested in? And Jaffet, I'll let you go first and then Kurike, and I also don't need to play traffic cop every time. I just figure it's less awkward if I'm saying one person than the other than both of you just sitting there and being like, who's going first? I think I was working related to First Amendment. I always liked intellectual property, so I like to combine a copyright and trademark law with freedom of expression. Also this year, I've been working a lot with public records and information policies related to privacy law in Puerto Rico, because there's not a lot of content in Spanish that is related to this topic. I also worked with slapsuits, and here people at some point are afraid of dealing with slapsuits almost because of the aspect of, because they are in English and they speak Spanish, so at some point get afraid of dealing with this. Quick follow-up question there. Are there particular topics where folks are getting hit with, so slap for those folks who don't know stands for strategic lawsuit against public participation? Are there particular topics or areas where folks are getting hit with these legal threats and that you've seen? Yeah, political speech. It seems to be the most common one, and people just, they exercise their freedom of expression, and they just get slapped with a takedown or anything that defamation, libel, and it's not funny. Yeah, fair. Awesome. Kree-Ked, do you want to talk a little bit about stuff that's interesting to you in the First Amendment space? Yeah. So like I said, I've always known I wanted to do things around technology surveillance, particularly around the ways in which government uses surveillance and just how to stop that from happening, and I started to realize that there are some connections between the First Amendment and government surveillance, a few particular things as journalists being surveilled and having to choose what stories they can and can't cover, inmates are surveilled in prisons, and they have to be careful about what they say. You have Muslim communities having their phone lines tapped or informants within their communities, and they have spoken about how they have to be careful about what they say so that people don't suspect them of being a terrorist. And so I just have developed this interest around the ways in which surveillance harms First Amendment rights or even like everyday people, like if you're googling something, everyone has that moment where they're like, oh, I wonder if I'm on a watch list now because I just googled this. And so I'm just interested in countering that so that people feel like they can say what they want to say, that they can protest different government actions without fear of being watched and what happens after that. Awesome. Thank you. When you're about to Google for something, I feel like there's a moment where I'm like, should I type in first? Like, I'm an attorney, enter. This is something I am googling for information about research, enter, actually Google whatever the thing is. So and I feel like if I'm doing that, then probably there are other people who are doing that as well. So how to turn surveillance into a cute joke about what Google monitoring our searches. Okay. Thank you both for sharing those thoughts. So as part of the IFR program, y'all both got to spend some time at a clinic over the summer. Hafe, we have the great pleasure of having you with us at the Cyber Law Clinic. And then Karika, you were at the Berkeley, I always forget if it's the Samuel St. Glashko or the Glashko Samuelson, I think it's Samuel St. Glashko clinic at Berkeley Law School. And I'd love to hear y'all sort of reflect on your time at those clinics and maybe from a bias standpoint, I'd love to hear about sort of your best memory or a highlight of it, although general reflections would also be welcome. So yeah, I'm happy to have whichever one of you who wants to go first, go first. I think I could start with that one. I think it was a great experience like they were a great team working around great people that are all about teamwork, respect, and they have this different perspective that make you at some point like change the way you think and respond to things. So I think that was great. I have a great variety of works also. And I think for a curious thing that happened, I remember that as one of my goals, I said that I would like to be better at public speaking. And they get me in a meeting with a client. And it's your turn to fit. You have to do that. The meeting. I'm afraid. I don't know if I can handle this, but everything, we did it great. So we survived. I feel obliged to say as a clinician that I hope you were given warning that that was going to happen. Like it. No, I got a warning. But still. Yeah, still. I feel like you never forget your first the first time it's like your job to talk in the client meeting. So awesome. Thank you. Um, yeah, I really, really enjoyed my time at the Semelson Clinic. I told my effort people that like it was the first time that I ever felt like I belonged in a legal space. And so I'm just like so appreciative of it. They like my team was just so supportive. Just like really reaffirming like I feel like you don't get a lot of feedback in legal spaces. And so it was just like really nice to feel like, oh yeah, like I'm on the right track. I'm doing what I'm supposed supposed to be doing. And they also just like really cared a lot about making sure I got projects I was interested in. And so they originally gave me like a very like just like focused solely on like first amendment issues project. And then when they heard I was also kind of interested in government surveillance and stuff, they were like, okay, let's put you on this project, which is more geared towards government surveillance and first amendment. And so they cared a lot about making sure that I had a good experience. And something scary, but very good for me that happened was we would have meetings once a week with the whole team. And everyone had to go around and say what project they were working on. And they had to explain the project and explain where they were at in the process. And ironically, I've never had to do that at any of my internships. And so I had to like, I felt like I just built a lot of skills, like understanding what I was doing and how to explain that to someone else. And it also helped me understand my project better, weirdly enough. So I guess like Huffette, like I was also kind of building like public speaking skills. So yeah. Thank you. So Huffette, a specific question for you. So I know that one of the projects you got to work on over the summer was on the DMCA, the Digital Millennium Copyright Act, and takedowns brought under the DMCA against journalists in Mexico. And I'd love to hear you talk a little bit about that project generally and your sort of your role in it, especially sort of given the bilingual nature of your legal practice and how that sort of played into your success in doing that work. Well, this project has had a special importance for me because I have seen this type of attack like personally. So and they have been a lot of abuses like this in Latin America when they take advantage of people and journalists and but we were essentially working on a guide to educate journalists and regular users of the internet from Mexico, Latin American countries on how to respond to fraudulent DMCA takedown notices that at some point or some a lot of cases, they were used as a weapon to silence journalists that it's definitely not the purpose of the DMCA takedown that it's supposed to be for copyright infringement. So at some point, I learned a lot during this work because I did know about the DMCA takedown notices, the DMCA takedown process, but I didn't know that it was so common that they misuse it like they've used it at some wrong point. And I learned about it a lot. I am actually I actually wrote another academic article about it for a class. So I really engage with the topic and I'm willing to help more people in that community with it. Amazing. I didn't know you'd written more about it. That's so cool. And I'm so, so glad to hear that. Yeah. And that project is public. The guide, I think, came out a couple of weeks ago. So y'all can go check it out. Yeah. It came like one week ago in Mexico and also in Spanish for Spanish speakers. That's awesome. That's so cool. And I know that it was when we saw that project, when Jessica fell with my colleague, said, oh, we have this project. I was like, I have the perfect person for this. So it's so awesome to have seen it come to come to fruition. Kreeka, so specific question for you. And I'm going a little bit off the script here. So, you know, feel free to not answer it if you don't want. But I actually had the pleasure of also working with you a little bit on some work you did for the Gender Justice Clinic at Cornell around sort of FASTA and speech, so F-O-S-T-A FASTA, which is the Fighting Online Sex Trafficking Act. I always forget exactly what it stands for of 2018. And I'd love to hear you talk a little bit about sort of how like one of the things Kreeka, I really admire about you is the many ways in which I think that you're bringing like your specific interests and the intersection with the First Amendment about how that project intersected with the First Amendment and how like how you ended up being involved in and writing part of the FASTA and legal context guide. Yeah. So, yeah, I've been in quite a bit of clinics during my time in law school. So I've done for the Gender Justice Clinic movement, lawyering, criminal defense, and then my time at the San Wilson Clinic. And yeah, I think all of them, except maybe criminal defense, dealt with First Amendment and government surveillance issues. So with the Gender Justice Clinic, like Kendra said, I worked on writing a document explaining FASTA and how it was originally said that it would prevent sex trafficking, but that's not actually what it's been doing. It's had a lot of harm placed on sex workers. And the connection to that with First Amendment is that sex workers can no longer chat online. Like they used to have different websites where they could share resources. They could vet their clients and make sure that this was a legit person, that this person wouldn't harm them. They could advertise online, but with FASTA, it's pretty much taken that away because companies are scared that the government will go after them for allowing that content on their website. So I'm trying to explain this without diving into the leads of things. But obviously, there's a connection because sex workers can no longer use their First Amendment rights. They can't communicate. It's placing them in danger over government surveillance, basically. And I also did the Movement Lawyering Clinic this semester. And we got to pick which organizations we wanted to work with. And I worked with Palestine Legal and Muslim Justice League, which are two amazing organizations. And ironically, I also got to work on First Amendment issues. I particularly chose those because they dealt with First Amendment and government surveillance. And yeah, I think my time at IFRA, before I was in IFRA, I didn't know for sure if I wanted to go into the First Amendment space. And then having done IFRA and worked with the Singleton Clinic, I was like, OK, yeah, this is what I want to do. And so yeah, I've been really lucky to have this experience and know that this is what I want to do because this was an easy way to get into the First Amendment field. Sorry, I feel like I'm just ranting now. No, I mean, I am going to eat up with a spoon, put on her promotional posters, post-excerpts from that. So thank you. And I didn't know that you'd done work with the Muslim Justice League through the Movement Lawyering Clinic. That's so cool. Now I'm jealous of Cornell's Movement Lawyering Clinic. It's really cool. But yeah, and as always, thank you for the kind words about IFRA. So I think the next thing I wanted to just ask about is in addition to the clinic, your clinical placement over the summer, y'all got to participate in a seminar with me, which was a highlight of the summer every week and Wednesday at noon. We all got to hang out. And I'd love to hear if you have anything that stands out from or this particular moment from the seminar that you remember. And I am absolutely not going to be offended if you talk about all of our incredible guest speakers, which were, for me, very much highlights. But yeah, I'd love to hear sort of you think if there were particular things there that changed how you thought or stand out to you. I can go. Go. Go. OK. So I particularly remember we had a guest speaker, Dr. April Williams. And she came in to speak to us about workspaces, how we present ourselves, and what to do when your workplace becomes toxic. And I worked before law school. So I, like I said, I worked for three years at a nonprofit. But I still feel like I have a hard time navigating workspaces. And so that was just so useful for me. And one of the things she spoke about is how on interviews, she doesn't feel we need to change her appearance. And I think for Black people, that's something we often feel the need to do. And so it was just very nice hearing her say that, because I was already thinking about how I wanted to present myself in interviews around this time, since I'm interviewing for full-time jobs. And she was just very reaffirming. She was like, no, you should feel very free to just express yourself physically, however you want to, because you're going to do that on the job, which makes a lot of sense. But I don't know. It just made me feel more confident in myself. And that's why I have it right now. But it's not straight, and it's how I want it. But yeah, it was just very reaffirming that you don't have to change yourself, that you can go to interviews as yourself, and also how to deal with workplaces when they become toxic. Here are all the steps you can take. But at some point, it may become so toxic that you have to leave. And that's also nice to hear someone say, yeah, sometimes you do have to leave. There's nothing else you can do. Because I feel like, for me, I feel like I have to fight, and I'd have to make it work. And sometimes you just can't. So I don't know. I really enjoyed that talk a lot. Thank you. Yeah, Dr. Williams is continually an inspiration to me. So I was grateful that y'all got to hear from her. Hafet, do you have a moment that you would like to share? Yeah, I have. Actually, I remember too that I really liked a lot. It was when we speak about or have a conversation about qualified immunity and its implications for First Amendment rights. Because it was this moment when the disease of the start of Black Lives Matter movement of all the things that happened. But they were also having some movements here in Puerto Rico. And they were specifically relevant for an article that I was parking in. So that was really great. And also, I remember, I think with Attorney, with Remy Green, he spoke a lot about Straca versus LGBTCC Center. This was a community center in New York. And it was a slapsuit, if I don't remember well. But it was a cyberbullying, defamation, discrimination, and breach of contract claims. A little bit right there. But I think they were specifically relevant for me. And I really learned a lot about them. Yeah, I think it was just reflecting a little bit myself. It was a summer where it was really valuable to be able to come together in community and be present with each other around that aftermath of the George Floyd murder. And I think as we were all figuring out, how does our day-to-day work as lawyers or as clinical students or interns in this space intersect with these moments of hope for systemic change and the realities of violence? So I think that I remember the discussion about qualified immunity, because in some ways, it can be hard as a lawyer to process the enormity of the violence inherent in things like the criminal legal system or policing in the US. And also hold in our heads, what are the doctrinal realities? What is qualified immunity? And what does it do? And having to hold both of those things at the same time. And I was grateful to have space with the two of you and with all of our colleagues to talk about both of those things, rather than feeling like we had to talk about one or the other. So that's my moment, but I'll share. Any other? So I think we're going to open it up to questions from the audience, but two more sort of quick questions before we get there. Anything else you all want to share about the IFRA experience, like things you might tell a law student who's interested in applying or things you wish you knew going in? I think I've asked this question to y'all before. So I may know some of the answers, but I'm curious as to them, nonetheless. Yeah, I think that for people who are interested in person amendment, but they're not sure, I think that this is a great program to do. I think that there's not that many avenues to exploring first amendment. Like not a lot of law schools have first amendment clinics. They've started to pop up more. But it can be a kind of hard area, I think, to get into. And I think IFRA was just a very clear avenue for me. And one that cared about people of color and getting us into the space. And so I just felt like this was a great way to dip my toes into this. And I also want to say that I think that this is also a great experience, because clinics are usually better about welcoming students into the space and getting them set up from what I observed from working with nonprofits as a legal intern versus clinics. They usually know where you're at and what you've learned and what you may need to work on since they're in the academic environment. And so I feel like it's just a good experience, because they're fully prepared to take you on and grow your skills like they're so organized. And I just can't recommend clinics enough. So I think that's also like in addition to IFRA being just a good entry space into this field, you're also going to a clinic that is prepared for you as well, because they know that you're new to this area and how to grow your skills. I want to add to that. I think it's a great opportunity and a great environment for learning. And if you're really interested or you're maybe thinking about personment law, you should consider it. Like it's a great opportunity. It's a great environment for learning. I think that's one of the top things I always try to look for. Yeah, again, my next ad for clinics. But I appreciate y'all sharing that. So before we open it up to questions from the audience, I wanted to ask if y'all had any reading suggestions or things that you're interested in or following that you would recommend to folks interested in free expression. We talked about this a little bit. But yeah, very, very much curious about whether there's stuff that you've been reading or thinking about and would recommend to others. You know, I have not been reading. Sorry y'all are in law school and you don't have time to read things for fun. And I should stop asking questions that you can't answer. That's also fair. I have like three books that I'm looking at on my coffee table that I have not read, but I really want to. And I think country already know one of these and it's Race After Technology. I have Avery Snowden's book, Permanent Record. Yeah, I have so many that I want to read, but I just like haven't gotten to them. And I actually would love to know if you have recommendations that maybe I don't know about. I'm going to come to HuffFet, which will give me time to brainstorm. I also admire that we've now fully embodied the clinical spirit where Creeke is like, you asked me this question. I'm going to turn it around and ask it to you, which I feel like is a good embodiment of IFRA in practice and also a totally fair question. So HuffFet, let's go to you. And then I will, in the meantime, I will come up with something because I will be honest and say I haven't been reading shit since the pandemic started, but I'll do my best to come up with an answer. I think since I've been like more into journalism work, I've been reading this book that is called Journalism Under Fire, Protecting the Future of Investigative Reporting. It's great. At some point, talk about the stratae slapsuits and also, it's not that related to freedom of expression, but it's great for writing and it's the point they have to write like the nation's top advocates. It's really great for writing. And if someone is interested in reading something in Spanish, I don't know, but it has a really nice article that explains in Spanish what is freedom of expression related to the digital content. It's called Vida Privada Reputación y Libertad de Presión en Torno Digital. And it's also, it's related from the federal law, but in Spanish, so it's great for understanding. Awesome. All right. Thank you, Hafet, for A, that excellent answer and B, giving me time to figure out what I was gonna say. So I like, like Corica, I have a bunch of books that I have not read that are sitting there. One book that I did read over the pandemic period that I actually would highly recommend is called Safe Sex. And it's a comic book about the experience, like sort of sex workers in a dystopian future. So it's by, so it's spelled S-F-S-X and it's by Tina Horn and among other authors. And I think it actually talks a lot about surveillance and like first amendment expression but told through the lens and the experience of sex workers. So that's a book I've really enjoyed that I've read. And then the book that I'm like sort of most excited to dig into when I at some point have time is Dean Spade, who's a law professor at Seattle University. That's right. Has, thank you, thank you, Corica, has a new book called Mutual Aid, which is on sort of mutual aid networks and networks of solidarity. And that's something I'm really excited to dig into because I do think that that's been a really important force during the pandemic is like mutual aid organizations that are based in sort of communities working to take care of each other. And I don't have a first amendment angle for it quite yet, but I'm sure I'll find one. It'll probably make it appearance in some way in our IFRA seminar next summer, but awesome. Well, now that my amazing IFRA folks have forced me to answer my own questions, it's time for y'all to force us to answer questions. Force is a strong word, but any questions from any of the audience about the program, about folks experiences, about sort of things that you might wanna know more about that we already touched on. And you can use the Q&A tool if you have them. All right, we have one from a familiar face, Jasrat, who asks a question that I should have included on my initial list, but fortunately, they're here to jump in with it. So what if, I think what they ask is sort of what did you experience as a member of IFRA that's unique? Or I guess to put it another sort of way and hopefully I'm fair to their question. What felt unique or different about IFRA as a space from other spaces that you might have been in as a law student or been in, even in your clinic? You both look like you're thinking, so I don't feel rude calling on y'all. I think kind of like what we've already talked about a little bit when we were really starting to meet once a week was when all of the protests had started. And I feel like, yeah, I was actually, so I actually split my summer, maybe I shouldn't say this, okay, but I actually split my summer. You can absolutely say that. It is a thing that you are absolutely allowed to do with IFRA. Yeah, so I split my summer. I did it at one place and I did the Samuel St. Clinic. But- You could totally say where you worked. I'm trying not to because I'm about to get to the part that I- Oh, okay. Got it. We didn't really talk about what happened at my first internship and then my second internship. We did talk about it and we were talking about it in the IFRA space. And I feel like that's pretty normal, is that you just wouldn't say much about it, just like a couple of words because people don't really know what to say and how to support you. And I just felt like IFRA was really supportive with everything that was going on because I felt like it was hard to work, like it was hard to concentrate when you see the world like burning down outside your house. And so I just, yeah, it was just IFRA's been a super supportive environment, which is not usually what you see from law school spaces. Like I feel like law is just like, let's take everything out of you. And IFRA is like, let's feed into you, like let's make sure you're okay and like it's okay to not be okay. And so I really appreciated that, is just being around like-minded people who cared about our well-being. I feel like, yeah, I feel like if there were emojis, there would just be, I could actually put the emojis, I could put just hearts over my head. Thank you, Karika. Thank you for sharing that. Hafeb, do you have sort of any thoughts? I think as Karika said, it was a great environment. It was like, it seems like you care a lot about us. And I think that's unique about all the things I have worked with. And specifically in the moments we were living in summer. So I think it was great. Did you care about you? I do. Okay, all right. Enough of the water works. Yes, thank you, thank you both. And I think, as I think about sort of IFRA, I do think also the way in which, and I think actually this brings me to the sort of next question someone asked, which is like, you know, I think the way in which we very much explicitly built the program to be really small was something that we thought a lot about internally because like often when you're doing sort of programming for this kind, it's like, oh, how many people can we get in? Like how big can it be? And you know, we had always gone in with the vision that IFRA was gonna be actually a really small program. So we were initially planning on taking four fellows and then y'all were just so impressive that we had to take five. But, and so I feel really lucky that we were able to create that kind of space where folks felt like sort of individually like cared for and paid attention to, in part I think because we were able to sort of have it be a smaller program that wasn't like, oh gosh, like it's 30 people in a room and this is one more, you know, especially as things went remote in the spring for lots of students like, oh great, this is one more 30 person Zoom room, you know, Zoom University School of Law. But yeah, so I guess that's my reflection on the question. Becca asked, so how do you think some of the special slash unique experiences from IFRA might scale or be incorporated into other teaching or working environment slash forums? So I certainly have thoughts on this but I would love to hear from y'all first about whether there's things that you think that we did that might be sort of workable in other places in your like law school career or other working environments. I think I would like to start with that one. And it was for the clinic work. I mentioned before that I have to do this meeting with a client, like that type of work make me more confident at public speaking. So I am right now the spoke person for the intellectual property pro bono program in my law school. So and that like, since that moment like I started talking more and it makes me more confident. I don't know how that worked, but it worked. This is a good question. Well, I think about how we talked a lot about like professionalism and dealing with workplaces, dealing with like workplace issues. And so we had a couple of weeks where we met and we talked about like different dynamics that work and how to deal with those issues. And you just don't get that in law school. Like no one comes to us and tells us this is how you deal with the situation. The most you get from law school is like you don't want to burn bridges. And like that's all they tell you. And so I think law schools could do a better job at just like teaching their like law students how to deal with these issues, especially like because I'm at Cornell, most of our class is younger people who haven't worked before. And so they don't know how to navigate these spaces. And so I think law schools should incorporate this more. I think in terms of the clinic, yeah, like HuffHat said, like giving people more opportunities to get comfortable with public speaking. Like I had to speak at meetings and discuss what I was working on. And that helped me grow. And I think that could be something that also could be implemented in other clinics or other spaces, you know. Yeah, I love both of those points. So the point sort of about creating opportunities for students to like really take the lead and try things and like speak in public. And yeah, I think Karika, I think I really appreciate your point about sort of like how, you know, there aren't lots of opportunities in law school or often in any kind of sort of in lots of professional spaces to talk realistically about like how do we, how do you deal with like moments of like where, you know, someone's being racist in a workplace or like where someone is behaving inappropriately even though like inevitably like lawyers are gonna encounter that, right? Like, you know, it's like, this is actually a reality of practice. It's like you're going to encounter moments where people are not behaving appropriately. Thank you for sharing. I was gonna answer, but I love the next question so much. And I'm so curious to see y'all's answers to this. So Jeff asks and notes that he always feels bad asking this question to actual job interviewees. So we're gonna ask y'all instead in what kinds of settings do you see yourself practicing law in your ideal career and what's your dream job? And I will note that I think that if anyone wants to offer either Karika or Huffett their dream job after this, like you can absolutely reach out to me and I would be happy to, happy to connect you directly. So, but yeah, I'd love to hear about like what, yeah, where do, like what kinds of work would you love to do? Yeah, it's a small question. Do you want me to, if you want me to vamp for another like 30 seconds while y'all think of answers, I'm happy to do that. I think I would like to do clinical work. I think it's really, I have experiences in government, courts or some big law firms, but I think clinical has been the best environment for working, like they are respectful, it's unique, it's a unique environment. Like I think, yeah, I would like clinical and if it could be related to first amendment or privacy law intellectual property that I really enjoyed as my personal time, but I think, yeah, if I could do clinical work and own all those areas, I will be more than happy. Yeah, my dream job. So obviously I wanted to, government surveillance and first amendment work. And I think, I think so I've been doing the, I did the movement learning practicum this past semester and basically movement learning is about putting power into communities and not thinking that as lawyers, like we have all the answers and we know what communities need but letting the community guide you on what they need and you figuring out how to get that. And so my dream job is basically working with communities. It doesn't necessarily look purely legal. I think there's a lot of times the law is not the answer. And so I think for me, I just wanna work with communities and figure out how to make their lives easier. Like how can I support them? What do they need from us? Since for better or for worse, people do look at lawyers as having like all of the status. And so what can I do with the status that I have to help these communities? And so yeah, my dream job is basically working with communities on government surveillance issues and how to prevent that from happening. I don't know what setting that is in, I'm guessing probably like a nonprofit or a clinic space but yeah, dream job. Amazing. Well, thank you so much to both of you for sharing. So we're nearing the end of our time together. So I love, yeah, Haffet, Karika, thank you so much for coming and chatting about this and sharing some of those sort of your personal experiences, your experiences with IFRA, with law school and the law more generally, I'm really grateful for that. I'm wondering if either of you have any sort of last words or last things you wanna share given what we've talked about today. And this is like, you don't have to, I'm just asking. Yeah, I feel like I might just be repeating myself but I really enjoyed my time with IFRA. I also remember interviewing with Kendra and thinking that this just ended after the summer, like it was it and I would never hear from everyone again. And I'm very grateful that that is not the case and that we're all still connected because I think that's sometimes how internship spills like it ends and then that's over and maybe once a year you check in but that's not been the case with IFRA. But yeah, I really enjoyed my time. I think it's a great way to see if First Amendment is the space that you wanna go into. For me, I was just kind of exploring and I'm very grateful that I figured out that this was an area that I wanted to focus my career on. Karika, I'm so glad you said that because I do think it's important to emphasize that y'all are not rid of me as I keep telling you. And I'm really excited actually to get to build connections across between y'all and the cohort that we're currently recruiting for and it'll be incoming in the spring. And I don't know, even just imagining hopefully a couple of years from now when there's many generations of IFRA folks that are either working in First Amendment spaces or not or maybe I feel like it's inevitable that at some point an IFRA cohort member is just gonna be like, I'm giving up on the law and I'm moving to go farm goats for a living or something and then we'll all get to enjoy delicious goat cheese from that IFRA cohort member. But basically, really excited to build that community independent of where folks hang up and up. How did we end up talking about goat cheese? I have no idea. All right, have that please save me for myself. Any last words or last thoughts? I think I was like testing waters with my First Amendment interests and I really liked it. So I've been, since this summer I've been working for getting better at the wider variety of First Amendment issues. So I think if you're considering First Amendment you should consider IFRA, it's just a top option. Well, y'all are great. Thank you so much. And yeah, thank you to our fantastic ASL interpreters Shannon and Nora and to our CART captioner Nancy and to the events team at Berkeley Klein who hosted this, Lance Rubin and Megan and of course to Jajad and Sybil, my incredible IFRA colleagues without whom none of this would be possible to be like entirely frank. So yeah, thank you so much everybody. Really appreciate y'all making the time and thanks for coming to all of our attendees.