 This is Will Spencer from the Renaissance of Men here with the new 21 Report and Dr. Sean T. Smith. Hey, Sean. How you doing? Good to see you, Will. So you spoke this year at the 21 Convention. What was the subject of your talk? My usual topic of men being selective about the relationships that they bring into their lives. And what angle did you take this year? I talked about separating the person from the relationship and looking at the relationship as its own entity that you're bringing into your life because it's very easy to get infatuated and smitten with a human being. And then you can lose sight of how the relationship that you two are building is actually affecting your life. And how did you break that down for men, like just take it apart a little bit? Well, I talked a little bit about Peter the Great because he was an interesting character and he had these two marriages. He had a lot of relationships, but he had two marriages in particular. And one was a good marriage and one was a very bad marriage. And I talked a bit about how those marriages affected what he was doing in the world and how I guess the reason I chose him is because it's an illustration that this question of choosing your relationships wisely is a very old question. And if a regent from Russia in 1700 had to wrestle with this question, then obviously it's something that we should be paying attention to. You also talked a little bit about shame, I heard, as I said in Forbidden Your Speech. So break that down a little bit because that's the subject that's been coming up more and more of noticed. Yeah, it has been coming up and it's great because you did a presentation on shame, which was brilliant. Thank you. And of course we have Robert Glover who talks about shame and he's brilliant in the way he discusses it. I just took a little different angle. I talked about what it is as an adaptation in our minds, what it's for, and how it can and is weaponized and used against us. I think what's my observation, you can tell me if you think it's fair, that between men and women, well I think you said this. So I know you think it's fair that women, we were given physical strength and women were given shame. Those are the two forces that you laid out so brilliantly. So I talked a little bit about how women use wheeled shame on a societal level and then in turn how that puts us in a really bad position for choosing our relationships because if you buy into the messages that you are despicable, you are contemptible, then you're approaching your relationships from a position of supplication and submission and that's not good for anybody. It wasn't good for Peter the Great. He had a relationship that was forced upon him in arranged marriage. He had no power in that choice and it worked out very poorly and we can look all around and we can see men who are relinquishing their power because they are buying into the messages that you are contemptible. You're a psychologist, you must see this in your practice all the time in various ways. I do, yeah of course. I think you did a nice job of showing how we are swimming in this messaging and that's what I took from it. It becomes difficult to see the messages, the shaming messages because they are so pervasive and it's just part of the normal discourse. You called attention to noticing it, just being aware of what's coming in. It's almost like you and I spoke two different sides of the same coin. I was lucky enough to see yours, you didn't get to see mine. When you see it, hopefully you'll say, oh yeah, this fits nicely with what I was saying. Now you've spoken at the 21 convention, this is your third time? I think so, yeah I spoke at a 21 convention and at a patriarch convention. What was the first year that you spoke here, if you remember? Probably 2018. 2018? That would be my guess. What are some of the ways you've seen the 21 convention change over the past, I guess we're at three years now? Well some things are constant, like Anthony Johnson, he's so utterly professional in the way he puts this together and if you follow Anthony on Twitter, you see one side of him. What you don't see is this man who is just calm, cool, collected, unbelievably professional and he puts together this event. This is like a three ring circus, I don't know how, I just got good people around him too but he has managed to put together this thing and it's kind of stunning to see what he's done here. Like the production value, the stuff that you don't see when you're watching videos like this. So that has remained a constant. The thing that changes I guess is the topic of discussion because we've seen a lot of different, I've seen a lot of different topics of discussion through these three conventions that I've been to and it's just a collection of ideas and I've even seen speakers disagreeing. I saw this afternoon two speakers having a disagreement about something that was pretty fundamental to each of their beliefs but it was a very civilized discussion and it's wonderful that we have a place like this where we can discuss ideas and it's okay to disagree, it's okay to have your own opinion and there's so little of that in society now. And so I guess going back to the point of what you see of Anthony Johnson if you follow him on social media, he's created this place where we can have these conversations. What are some of the new ideas that are coming in and some of the old ideas that may be going out in this, I guess, field of ideas? I haven't heard much about the pills this time around. Not that there's anything wrong with the pills but there was a time when so much of the conversation centered on what color pill are you? A red pill or a blue pill, what color you're a purple pill, maybe you're that pill, maybe you're this pill and it was very much this sort of striated us, them, the other and this conference is, that's fine, there's a place for that conversation I suppose but no I don't suppose, there is a place for that conversation and there are good ideas in those ideologies. But this conference has been a little more inclusive and a little less of the categorizing people and it's a discussion of ideas like you and I and Ken Curry just had a discussion about therapy and there are a lot of guys that are lined up to ask questions and that's a conversation that I don't know would have taken place three years ago just because things have changed. Have you gotten the chance to interact with any of the attendees? Yeah, they're great guys and that's another thing that doesn't change. Every time I come here, like I've reconnected with some old friends that I met first time around and the guys who come here are just so squared away and they're so motivated to get themselves to the next level whatever that is for them and that's also a constant in this conference. Have you gotten the chance to listen to many of the speakers as well? Yeah, not as many as I would like to because sometimes, well, there's always two speakers you want to hear and sometimes there's two talks going on at the same time and you have to choose unfortunately. But the good thing is get to watch the video later and when you missed. Who are some of the speakers you've enjoyed hearing speak? Well, I've really enjoyed your talk. I really enjoyed your discussion of shame and the project that you're working on which I won't say anything about it but it is going to be I'm excited about it. Thank you. Wonderful project. Arthur Kwam Lee talked about aesthetics. He's an artist. He's a fine artist, a classically trained artist. And he talked about the decline of masculinity and aesthetics and art and why that is not a great thing for the standards in arts. Like you got to have a balance between masculine and feminine and everything and his profession, like my profession, has been overly feminized to the point where the bad things that come with that being overly taken with that side of the spectrum happened to be in his what he was arguing was a loss of standards. So we went from he showed beautiful pictures of beautiful renaissance art and then he showed a banana duct tape to a wall. That's that's the new standard of what's brilliant in avant-garde. And he's he's making the case that I think he's making the case. I hope I'm not misspeaking that part of the problem there is that there is the loss of masculinity in art has led to that particular problem or created that particular contributed to that problem. Yeah. Yeah. And as he was talking, I was thinking about my own profession. Like there was a time when my profession was overly masculinized and it was neglecting the feminine side. And we've gone 180 degrees the other direction now where my profession of psychology is overly feminized. And we've lost some we've lost what the masculine brings to my profession. What sort of things is the masculine bring to your profession? Well, one of the things that the masculine brings to any discipline, I think, is standards. The dad is the one in the house, usually, who has the standards about getting your chores done on time. Mom typically, you know, and not every house is the same, obviously, yada, yada. But mom typically is the more you're attending more to the emotional side of things. And that's necessary. But you also need the dad to come along and say, Hey, we got a schedule here. We're going to keep moving. You have a job to do. I'm going to hold you to it. The dad will oftentimes let a kid get hurt in a way that is safe and controlled in a way that a mother won't because the dad will let the children take risks. And that's absolutely vital because that's how a child finds out where the limits are. And you find that out in a safe, contained environment rather than growing up and not having any idea what your limits are. And then you get hurt. So these are some of the things that the masculine brings standards and demands. And so you see that in my profession, I think, where. I don't think I know that in my profession, you see a loss of discipline in how to think about the job of doing psychology, whether it's therapy or research. Talk about your relationship with your Twitter account, because you're one of my favorite accounts on Twitter, consistently one of my favorites. And it sort of seems like as as much as I enjoy Twitter, maybe you don't enjoy Twitter as much sometimes. So talk about that because that shows up in your feed and just something I've been curious about. Do I look grumpy on Twitter? No, well, I mean, sometimes everybody's grumpy. You're supposed to be grumpy on Twitter, right? Yeah. No, I don't know. I don't know how to characterize it as grumpy. It's I would characterize it as a sort of ambivalence with social media. And that's kind of the world that we live in right now. It's like where some of us are many, perhaps even all, are reluctantly using these tools that sometimes feel like they're using us. Yeah, for sure. And I do enjoy Twitter. There's a time to turn it off. I tend to turn it off on the weekends just out of disciplines because I could scroll through it all weekend if I don't discipline myself. So I tend to step away. But the nice thing about Twitter is that if you use it correctly, it can help you hone your thoughts and be succinct. And I try to use it that way. And I try to present when I'm arguing with feminism, for example, I try to argue against feminism from a stance of not from anger, but just the amusement because I've declared myself the spokesman for the patriarchy. I don't know if anyone's noticed, but I have declared myself spokesman for the patriarchy. And congratulations. Thank you. Yeah, quite a promotion. And when I think about how to post things as on behalf of the patriarchy, I'm thinking, OK, well, if there was a guy, a bunch of guys sitting around and they actually had all this power that people think they have, how would they respond to things? And it would be sort of a detached amusement with what's going on. I'm not troubled by anything because I'm in control. And so that's that's the attitude I try to take on Twitter. And I try to use it in a way that cheers me up. And if it cheers somebody else up, that's fine, too. I don't care. Well, that's fantastic. Well, I mean, it's it's an honor to be sitting across from the spokesman for the patriarchy. I'm a big fan of your work. Anthony Johnson declared himself the president of the Manisphere. Kevin Samuels declared himself the I think the head of the Feminist Party. And it's incredible, maybe I've got to declare something, too. But I think we've got to get you a title. We've got to get me a title. I mean, I think that's great, though, because I think there's this caricature that's put out there of patriarchy is this nebulous, this nebulous force or this conspiratorial thinking. It's like, well, you know, there that doesn't actually exist. And it's a it's a phantom. It's a fiction. But if it could exist, this is maybe how it would talk. Is that kind of the exercise? Yeah. What are some of the things that the patriarchy would say if you can think about the top of your head? Um, well, here's there was a actress recently. I don't know if I can. Well, you'll edit it out if I can't say it, but she had a gown on or a t-shirt or something that said peg the patriarchy, which is a it's an act, right? And so my response on behalf of the patriarchy was, well, thank you, but we don't like you in that way. We like you, but we don't like like you. My sense is that that's how these guys would respond. Just a little bit out of touch because they don't need to be in touch. For sure. I think, I mean, that voice needs to be out there. Well, speaking of patriarchy and the relationship with the patriarchy, I suppose there's a 22 convention make women great again. This happening this year. Have you gotten the chance to sit in on any of those talks or interact with any of the women there or even speak there? I haven't spoken there. I got to sit on one talk. And again, that's just a scheduling problem. I wanted to see all of them. I happened to see Suzanne Venker. And what a lovely lady. And she was just a lovely message of we don't have to be in conflict with each other all the time, men and women. We can actually get along. And there were other lots of other talks I wanted to see. Did you get to interact with any of the women attendees? A little bit. Yeah, wonderful women. Yeah, they're not angry. They're like nobody here is angry. That's one of the things that stands out. Yes. There's nobody here who's in a grumpy mood. Yeah, my observation is incredibly positive all the time. Just a lot of happiness and a lot of joy to be discussing ideas. Now, it's your third year speaking here. What do you get out of coming to the 21 convention? It's fun. It's a hoot to be here. And plus, it's a challenge to try to put together a decent talk. You put together an amazing talk, but you know that it's a challenge to try to put something together that is clear and succinct and you're well-dressed and you're polished. And it's important to challenge yourself with these things. And not just sit in your office and do the same old comfortable thing over and over. What if you could talk a bit about your book, The Tactical Guide to Women? What would you like to know about it? Oh, well, I mean, you've called this book your baby. You have, what is it, the tactical guide to men? Is it the say, the practical guide to men? The practical guide to men. Yeah, but you've called this book your baby. I'm going to speak a little bit about that. It's my baby, I think, because this one more than others has really spoken to people. The reason I wrote this book is that I've been in private practice for about 16 years or so. And one of the things I started noticing early on is that when men were talking about their relationship difficulties, most of these men had, nobody had sat down with them and talked to them about being selective about their relationships. How do you choose somebody that is going to fit well in your life? Are you going to fit well in theirs and you'll be a nice team? They just don't have these conversations. And so that was my premise. That was my hypothesis. And so I started going through my files and looking for patterns and looking through the research and looking through evolutionary psychology to see what adaptations might apply here. And I wrote a book that said, all right, here's some basic things that you might look for in a woman so that you don't end up in family court. You don't end up with a string of a trail of destruction behind you. And apparently it struck a nerve because it's been very well received. And so it's gratifying to know that what I saw was a problem that needed to be addressed is actually a problem that needs to be addressed. Still get a lot of feedback from the book and people saying thank you and share my life and the book saved my life. I'm laughing at that because we just had a discussion about that phrase, the book saved my life and you'll have to watch. And they guess a viewer's laughter. Red Man Group, The Therapist, Livestream. Yeah, so that's where the book came from. And it's been a blessing because I guess apparently when you do something useful in the world you get paid for it and that's been nice. That's not nice. Yeah, yeah. I mean, but how is this book received in your professional in your professional world? Like do you get therapists contacting like I read your book and hate it? I read your book and I loved it. Occasionally someone will tell me that they read it and they like it. This was not written for my colleagues. Right, exactly. And one of the many reasons I didn't go to a research track, besides I like doing the work, but a minor reason that I didn't go into the research track is I didn't want to write to my colleagues. There's nothing wrong with that. I think that's an admirable thing to do, but I wanted to compete on a larger stage and see if I could produce something that more than seven people, including my supervisor, we're going to read. Yeah. Now your Dr. Sean T. Smith, what does the T stand for? Toxic or testosterone depends on the day. That's actually what some of my friends said last night. Yeah. Sean testosterone Smith. Yeah, I was going with toxic for a while, but then your friend told me testosterone. I think it's a positive shift. It's appropriate for the spokesman for the patriarchy. It's actually my grandfather's name, Theodore. But we can add another T in there. Yeah, we could. Well, cool. Thank you so much, Sean, for all the toxicity and testosterone. Thank you, Will. You add to this. And where can men go to find out more? Men and women go to find out more about you and what you do. I have a website, ironshrink.com, and my Twitter handle is at ironshrink. Awesome. That's it. Thank you again. Thank you. This is Will Spencer from the Renaissance of Men here with the New 21 Report and Dr. Sean T. Smith. Thanks so much.