 Well, good morning, everyone. My name is Alex Wong. I'm a senior director at the World Economic Forum. I have the pleasure to introduce this session. The reason I'm here is because at the World Economic Forum, we have also been struggling and looking at the challenges related to infrastructure as one of our initiatives for the last several years. Most recently, we have an initiative called the Strategic Infrastructure Initiative, which is building on the momentum that a lot of discussions from the G20, from leaders such as our panel here today, have been struggling to solve the infrastructure puzzle. And we have an initiative that is specifically looking at how can we create new models of collaboration between business, government, civil society, experts. We've already done some analysis to really dive down into the project preparation and the global financing challenges. I'm sure we'll hear more of this in the session today. And we are right now working very closely with the Africa Union Commission and the Netpad Planning Coordinating Agency and the African Development Bank with a specific deep dive on Africa, looking at how we can leverage the World Economic Forum platform to help with Africa's program for infrastructure development in Africa, the PETA program, as an example. So I have some more information on this. It's all material that's also available on our website related to what we're doing on infrastructure. So we're very pleased to have you learn more about that, but at the same time, now to introduce our panel and hand over to our moderator who will take us through our session this morning. Thank you. Thank you very much. Alex, and thanks for joining us this morning, folks. Infrastructure, as we all know, is a key issue, whether we are in the mature markets or in the growth markets. Whether it be infrastructure financing or whether it be the regulatory and institutional issues that we need to deal with around infrastructure or whether it comes to efficiency and innovation that's fundamental and critical to unlocking value from the investments that we make in infrastructure. This is a topic that's near and dear to all of us. We have a distinguished panel joining us this morning. We have Mr. Sushil Kumar Modi, the deputy chief minister for the state of Bihar. There are some amazing things that are happening in the state of Bihar under his leadership. We have Dr. Marafi, group CEO, Q-Tel group, Adakatar and the Q-Tel group is doing very interesting things in the communications and telecommunications space. We have Lou Zhigwang, president and CEO of the Beijing Capital Group. And as we all know, infrastructure financing is a key topic and we look forward to hearing Mr. Lou's views on it. We have Honorable Minister Johnson, Minister for Communication Technology from Nigeria. And we also have Dr. Raymond Chen, Chairman, MTR Corporation. Without much ado, let me hand over to Mr. Modi to share with us some of his thoughts on the issue around infrastructure financing, which is a big topic for all of us. Friends, India is going to invest more than one trillion United States dollar in the next five years for infrastructure. The big question mark, the big question is from where this one trillion money will come from and we are struggling how to finance the infrastructure projects. So in India, we have encouraged public, private partnership projects in infrastructure. And a large number of projects are being taken involving the private sector. And then the central government, the federal government, it is funding those unviable commercial projects The federal government is funding 20% of the capital amount as a viability gap funding. But the biggest problem we are facing is the insufficient of user charges because the people are not ready to pay user charges. People are poor, they are illiterate, and there was a legacy people are not paying for the user charges. So the insufficiency of user charges that the government of India has set up a India infrastructure finance company limited. And this company, IIFCL, will fund 20% of the total project cost of the infrastructure projects. And then we have also set up infrastructure debt funds. And through these infrastructure debt funds, we are going to finance our big infrastructure projects. And the government of India has also allowed certain companies to float infrastructure bonds in which there is an income trust exemption to a certain limits. And we are also contemplating to use foreign exchange reserves for infrastructure development. But still, these public, private partnership projects are at the very initial stage. And slowly and slowly, the companies are coming in the private sector because the finances of the federal government or the state governments are very limited to finance these big projects. And there is a kind of an explosion. You can use the word explosion of infrastructure. Now there is a hunger. People want good roads. People want connectivity. People want good urbanization. And all these things require a huge amount of money. And because of the present fiscal framework, it is difficult for the federal government of the state governments to arrange money for such infrastructure projects. So we have gone for this public, private partnership. But still it is in the very initial stage. And I think India is trying very, we are moving very fast. And in a backward state like Bihar, which is one of the poorest state of this country which I represent, in a state like Bihar, we have attracted more than 2,000 crore rupees in the road projects. So the biggest hurdle, how to manage, how to this user charges. And the large number of private companies would come forward to participate in the public, private partnership projects. Thank you, thank you very much, Mr. Modi. Let me handle to Mr. Marafi, Dr. Marafi to talk about some of the issues that he is facing, perhaps from a regulatory standpoint, which seemingly is the biggest issue for the telecommunications industry. Yes, thank you very much. Again, just to introduce our company, QTIL of course is one of the big telecom companies in the region. In fact, we operate both in the MENA and the Asia subcontinent. And we have roughly 17 operation now with 85 million customers. And as you mentioned, we have some issues that need to be addressed in our industry. As you're aware that telecom industry is actually have been the driver of many of the new growth in the industry. And one of the major challenges that we are facing is that we need to finance the next generation of building this infrastructure. As you're aware, the mobile penetration now in the world is around 80%, which is actually where people actually have access to mobile phone than any other technology, whether it's electricity or even banking account. So in a way, we are going to be at the center of the world economy, especially in the coming age. But to do that, of course, we will need to invest even further in the technology that is going to come, which is, again, to support broadband in particular. The issue that we are facing is that, of course, mobile penetration is very high. The growth that is coming in the future is going to slow down, as I mentioned because of the high penetration. Yes, there are growth in data, but the margin that comes with data is also very low in comparison with the previous. So that is going to require for us to find a way to invest in the infrastructure. And that is going to require some understanding from the regulator and also from government that they need some kind of support for building that infrastructure. The issue that we have is that, for example, we are seeing. Many countries now are imposing new fees on spectrum, especially for the new generation, which is called LTE. And that is going to be one of the issues. The other one is taxation. Operators are putting taxes on telecom services, and we believe that need to be looked at. The other thing that I think we need also to work with other players in the industry, especially the OTT players or the content provider, because we believe there should be a partnership model by which we can share on the pie that is going to grow, especially that is coming with data. So these are some of the issues that we are facing, and I know that it's going to be interesting to understand from the government how these issues are going to be addressed. And we are in a way trying to also facilitate some of these discussions in some of the forums that we have, especially the World Economic Forum I think could play an important role. There are other forums like the ITUs and the GSMA that are also playing an important role to bring all these parties to understand the challenges that is going to take into our industries. So again, it's going to be interesting to see how we are going to fund these future infrastructure. And again, as I said, that's something that need to be debated and discussed with the regulators. Thanks, Dr. Marafi. Let me hand off to Mr. Liu. Clearly, China has made amazing, amazing progress on the infrastructure front. It'll be good to understand from your vantage point both the finance dimension and the regulatory aspects of how China is progressing on this very important topic. Okay, this is a big city investment, we are kind of a very big infrastructure operator and we invest in a lot of infrastructure projects including the metro project, the wastewater treatment project, et cetera. And we set that for the infrastructure industry and really develops toward the high-consumption-oriented industry. So in terms of the investment, it's going to be in large scale. So what I want to say about the innovation in terms of financing for basic infrastructure because in the past, investment in infrastructure is done by the revenues from the land and also rely on the loans. And this investment is actually made by the government. So it's the government who are doing multiple functions to issue the bonds to purchase the land and also to make investment. Well, for the enterprises, they are not the main bulk of the investment in the infrastructure. But I think when we talk about the new form of financing, we're going to involve a lot of enterprises. We would involve a lot of players. The government is not the only one, the only player that making the investment. More we have a lot of agencies, for example, bonds, securities, and big investment companies are all participating in that. We were mobilizing more social resources in terms of the operational mode. We actually would go for the market, that is to break up the monopoly and rely on market forces. Secondly, there are many new ways of financing. So we hope that we can leverage that kind of ways of financing. For example, the PI5 to form this kind of SPC company to provide service and product when the government will purchase the service. Another is PPT. This is another way. We think it is also meaningful. So together, we are working with the MTR of Hong Kong in that form. And recently, we're also thinking that in China, we will mobilize social capitals using like the social companies, for example, insurance companies and security companies so that we work together for a big infrastructure fund. We're now working on two funds. One is a small and medium-sized investment fund and another one. This will be made for big and large-scale infrastructures. In addition to this kind of fund, we're also thinking that in the future, we will use capital market, bond market and debt market for financing. We're still thinking. And also in the future, the investors will have to construct some platform with a financing field so that information would be more symmetric and there is a flow of information. So in the future, making investment in infrastructure, we can do this kind of option all for the projects. That is, people, they have the projects but they do not have fund. Well, other people, they have fund but they do not have projects. So in the future, there will be a kind of a trading platform so that these two parties can be matched so that the basic infrastructure can have more source of funding. Thank you. Thank you, Mr. Liu. Minister Johnson, Minister for Communication Technology, there's amazing things happening in the telecommunications space in Africa, fundamentally changing the fabric of society. It'll be good to get your perspective on this topic. Thank you very much and good morning, everybody. I mean, I think you're absolutely right. There are amazing things happening in Africa, in Nigeria, particularly with communications infrastructure. But I think, as has been said and some of the statistics show, the lowest level of investments from government is coming into the communications industry. And that's because for many countries in Africa and developing economies, that industry has been very much liberalized. So a lot of the investments in communication infrastructure is coming in from the private sector. And these are huge investments that are required. And so the role of government really becomes much more emphasized in terms of creating that enabled environment for private sector investment, either in the form of PPPs or private equity or whatever it is. And so the regulator and government really becomes quite important when you talk about creating that environment. And there are many aspects of this that we see. I think what investors are looking for in any, before they invest in infrastructure, which are really very long-term investments all across the world, they're looking for some level of predictability, some level of consistency, and where possible, some level of standardization in the industry. And those are the kind of things that we are worrying about as we're trying to attract investments into the ICT industry, particularly for building us our broadband infrastructure, talking about predictability. For many telecoms companies, the biggest investments is in broadband. And for broadband investments, the biggest cost is right of way. And what we've been doing in Nigeria is trying to ensure that we standardize how you procure right of way. So for instance, there's right of way on federal roads, on state roads, on local government roads, and we've been able to achieve quite significantly a standard cost on the right of way on federal roads, not only a standard cost, but a standard amount of time. So by the time it's only, it would take you 30 days from submitting your application for right of way to actually receiving a yes or no or whatever on the right of way. These are very important because these are the key things that actually constrain or slow down the investments in communications infrastructure. And I think one of the big strategic shifts, and that's what we're talking about, that we are seeing that is important, is the collaboration of government agencies. Because again, I am talking about ICT infrastructure. What you find is that that is infrastructure that requires regulation across several MDAs ministries. The Ministry of Communication Technology itself, a ministry of works because of the right of way across the on roads. And for us, for installing base stations, we now have regulation around the Ministry of Environment in terms of the impact of these very large structures in our urban cities and in some of the rural areas as well. And what needs to happen and is happening is that there is much more collaboration. So for instance, when I talked about standardization and some consistency and predictability in right of way, we had to work very closely with the Ministry of Works. As we go into more and more base stations, we have to work with the Ministry of Environment. So having a sort of one-stop shop, if I can call it that, for regulation and for permits, for building out very important ICT infrastructure. I think that one of the other things that looking at institutions, particularly coming from Africa, which is becoming, I think just like most other parts of the world, quite regionalized, so there's the ECOWAS community. And what needs to happen is that as we build this infrastructure, particularly for the landlocked countries in the ECOWAS region, we need to begin to take this infrastructure to some of these countries. And we need to begin to look at regionally integrated infrastructure. So there are a number of projects that are power projects that are regional. There are water projects, ICT projects that are regional. But the important thing is to begin to combine these regional infrastructure projects. So for instance, there is a Trans-Saharan communications, so there's a Trans-Saharan power line. There's a project within ECOWAS to connect all the capital cities in ECOWAS through fiber. But what we're also doing there is that we're riding on the power infrastructure. So we're putting fiber over power lines. So that not only having regionally integrated projects, but having integrated infrastructure projects that are riding on the same infrastructure, riding on the same permits, riding on the same regulation. I think that's a very important way for governments to start thinking in terms of both the investment that is coming into the countries and also in terms of accelerating the build out of that very important infrastructure. Thank you. Thanks, Minister Johnson. Raymond, clearly this year of pricing, this year of financial sustainability is a topic that's top of mind to many of the panelists. This is an area where MTR has done a really interesting work. It'll be good to get your perspective. Oh, yeah, well, I think just a little bit of boosterism for MTR to start with were probably the most profitable subway company in the world. Last year, we reported profits of close to two billion US dollars. But coming back to something that is broader, I think essentially infrastructure to modern urban living is like water to life. Both are scarce resources. Both needs careful management. And both need to be kept evergreen. Attention arises when in a lot of political communities and a lot of societies, people tend to think or take infrastructure and water as something that is given or an entitlement. So there's a tendency, both politicians to sometimes sort of adopt popular rhetoric and saying that these things should be given free. And that's a fundamental tension that needs to be resolved. Infrastructure like good water, fresh water, basically have the characteristics of the public goods. So it really justify appropriate government intervention and involvement. But from the MTR experience is that government needs to be there at birth. However, I think it would be prudent for government and it's sound long-term policy, economically and politically, to think of how you can eventually extricate yourself, okay? And so the way that the MTR business model is such that the basic premise is that you know that if you build a railway with the right alignment, it actually enhances the value of all the contiguous land, okay? And you can create new communities. So it actually generates a lot of external economies. So if you can set up the rules of the game such that the builder of the railway or the builder or the developer of the infrastructure, some of that and has value added or value created can accrue or be internalized by the developer, okay? That solves a lot of your long-term problem. And the way that we sort of look at MTR now is that 30 years ago, we thought of MTR as a rail service company. Now more and more, we look at MTR, successful commercially, but MTR more and more, we look at it ourselves as a platform, okay? A platform like a Google, a platform like an Apple, for not only would you put all sorts of applications onto it, lifestyle, residential development, retail, okay? We also put electronic money, octopus card, which is quite well known even beyond Hong Kong, we're one of the world's innovators in using a card as money. And that's applied not only to transportation services now, it's applied to retail. And we're also now actually in our space today, actually property development accounts for roughly 40% of our profit, 20% from rail operations only, it's profitable. 20% from station commercial. So rather than it's just selling the tickets, the fares for train, we develop our stations such that it becomes community space, okay? We bring art, we bring retail into station. And then on top of stations, we have bigger retail, we have restaurants and all that. And so we use other people's ideas and apps and bring it onto our platform and can generate more revenue. And another 20%, so I said 40, 20 from rail, 20 from station commercial, advertising and all that. And these all need to be planned before you actually just go there and build a station. For instance, we're now building the Hong Kong sector of the National High Speed Rail Network, okay? There's gonna be a very large terminal, all underground, five layers underground, right by the harbor front, okay? Where the future West Column Cultural District will be, the museums and all that. We're talking to developers and designers of the museum, okay? Our station actually is gonna become an integral part of that museum. People come off the train, they're gonna be greeted by artwork, okay? There are gonna be community small performance areas and all that where we're gonna draw the community into the stations, do performance, make your sort of really a commuting experience more like a lifestyle experience, okay? These things need to be thought out well in advance, okay? However, okay, coming back to the very basic principle is that one, as I said, it's a public good. You have to think of how to allow developers to internalize the external economies generated. Another thing is that we've always abided by it and this is something, a challenge faced by a lot of Western communities now that are sort of finding their infrastructure in various states of disrepair is that you need to abide by the user pay principle. So you need to have market pricing. Having said that, infrastructure providers, service providers also need to be caring companies and then working together with government is that you really need to help people who truly need help, okay? So you can be quite generous if you have targeted subsidy for people who cannot quite afford the essential infrastructure, okay? But you need to be very careful in terms of very broad-based entitlement programs. I think everywhere you go in the world, including Hong Kong, if you're over 60 or over 65, you virtually enjoy free fare, okay? However, I think for the panelists around here and all that, sometimes you feel, is it right not to charge them anything to write the MTR? Yeah, so I'm about to reach that age. I might have a change of mind then, okay? So it's this kind of thinking, you really need to have the community, engage the community in debate and discussion, and try to abide by something that is economically rational but at the same time also caring, okay? I'd like to end by bringing up another issue, is that because I think since 2008, we know the world, the global economies and the troubled state, okay? My own view is that we need to be 21st century canyons, okay? We need to massively, on a global basis, invest in infrastructure, and we need to invest in education, okay? These are all things that have very long-term payback periods, okay? And as a consequence to the excesses of the banking community and financial intermediary services before 2008, okay? Rightly so, global regulators are reacting, okay? But one of the unintended consequences of maybe overreacting is that new regulations around the world, Dassel III plus all sorts of other regulations are making it more challenging for financial intermediaries to fund long-term projects. So this must be addressed, especially for commercial banks. I think no commercial bank in their right mind these days will think about doing that much project financing because on one hand, they need to, the regulators are telling them to increase capital. Another hand is their liabilities is getting shorter and shorter, but so there's really in terms of the asset side, their horizon, they're shortening their horizon. So how do you address that issue and set up things that maybe you can think about? Maybe insurance industry can fund certain long-term projects, but they're also subject to increasing regulatory restraints, okay? I think this is something that global regulators and government needs to think about it carefully. Otherwise, because if we do the judicious investments in all these essential infrastructures now, I'm quite optimistic that the new normal that the whole global economy is transitioning towards can be quite a bright new normal. But if we fail to do that, if we fail to do that, the new normal can be something that is reduced compared to the final two, three decades of the 20th century. Thank you, thank you Raymond. Any follow-up comments based on what Raymond said, particularly Mr. Modi, the whole issue and I'm sure Dr. Marafi would raise this issue as well. Given the long-term nature of the investments that are required to be made in infrastructure, financing is gonna require having the right kind of regulations to actually make the whole investment worthwhile and the big issue, for example, in the telecommunication space is this 4G technology that's coming. And the question would be, Dr. Marafi, clearly telecommunications has driven extraordinary things, whether it be the Arab Spring in the Middle East or transformation in ECOWAS in Africa or empowering the common man in places like India. The question is, what kind of things can governments do to ensure that additional investments continue to happen in areas like 4G and 3G and technology so that nature, to the point that Mr. Raymond was making, which is fundamental for the future of entire societies. Yeah, is it to me? Yes, again, as I mentioned, because if we look at the cycle of investment that need to meet in telecom in the past, the life of these assets would go from 10 to 15 years in terms of the investment, because as you understand investment in telecom is capital intensive, it requires a huge amount of funding. So the operators was able to justify the investment because the life cycle of the technology was longer at that time. What we are seeing now that this cycle is shrinking. For example, we have seen that 3G technologies today, it was introduced in the late 2000 and more or less the cycle is getting shorter for 4G. We expect that to be less than 10 years. Now we're talking about maybe five to eight years and that is going to require as big of an investment as we used in 3G. And yet, as we're seeing that the government also are imposing the same taxation regime, as I mentioned in terms of royalty fees or what they call license fee that has been imposed on the operators. And as we are seeing that, even though the spectrum is more or less available, there is tendency in the government to impose more money on the operators to invest in this spectrum, even though it doesn't cost the government that much. Again, I was interested to hear the minister, which was very interesting to see. And I hope that is followed by other countries that in Nigeria, they have been very supportive of the operators and we see that this regulation is better for the industry because the industry already is very competitive in nature and you don't need to do a lot of regulations on the industry. And that is going to help the operators to go at least to be more proactive in making the investment. The other issue is that, whether subsidy is going to be needed in our industry, I think that is not needed at this stage given the government reduced taxation and also, as I mentioned, to reduce fees that they are going to impose especially for the 4G technologies. From the audience standpoint, are there any specific questions that you'd like to ask off of the panelists? Please get your questions ready. I just have one other question for either minister Johnson or Mr. Modi. When we think about infrastructure investments, there are some areas where the private sector is able to step forward and whether it be telecommunications or electricity or highways and ports and so on. In public-private partnerships, Mr. Modi, the thing you're talking about is pretty much the order of the day in most parts of the world. But there is a whole bunch of other types of infrastructure where the primary investments probably going to come from the public sector, from the governments, whether it be water, waste, urban mass transit. What are the plans for addressing that kind of infrastructure? Again, they're absolutely fundamental but unlikely to be addressed by the private sector. We are also facing these problems because the private sector is still not ready to come in the urban development or especially in the water supply, in the drainage and sewage system of the urban areas. So there are many areas. The private sector is more interested in the infrastructure of telecommunication. Still people are coming the roads but still there are large sections of the infrastructure in which the private sector is not finding it convenient or finding it a renumerative to go into those sections. So for that, we are arranging funds through what you called by setting up infrastructure debt funds, raising money from the market, raising money from the people. But still these are the issues. And one more issue I would like to raise here regarding the maintenance of the infrastructure. The infrastructure is aging very rapidly. So how to maintain, how to sustain those infrastructure which has been created? Because normally the governments does not spend much of the money on the maintenance of the infrastructure. In a country like India, it is aging very rapidly. So that is one issue. And another issue I would like to raise here regarding this in telecommunication, how this telecommunication is going to affect the health of the common man? Because in the recent magazines, newspapers, it has come appeared that the radiation of all these mobile towers and all these things, they are affecting the common man health. To what extent we are taking care of these things? Because in India, we are new to these things but I would like to know if somebody from in the panel from the developed countries, they can answer these some questions. There's a lot of, clearly there's a whole bunch of really smart thinking on this topic in the audience. Anyone who would like to ask a question or make a comment, please introduce yourself and the organization and then ask the question. Thank you. My name is Peter Frickman. I'm the CEO of DripTech. We make affordable drip irrigation for small plot farmers. Very little discussion about water, especially in light of some of the recent monsoon challenges in India. I'm interested, how are we going to basically provide enough agricultural water to grow food for increasing populations across Asia and Africa? What is the question? The question is, there's not been too much discussion on water and irrigation. What are we going to do to ensure there is enough water and irrigation to help the burgeoning population in countries like India? See in India, there are certain parts of India which are having plenty of water but the southern and the western side of the country, we have a scarcity of water. So we are facing these problems. So there is one scheme of interlinking of rivers. So many of the states are going for interlinking of rivers to help the, to solve the problem of irrigation, water from the irrigation. But this is the problem we are facing. And in the urban area, we require quality water. So that quality water is not there. But in the bigger cities like Delhi, Mumbai, Bangalore, we have been able to address the issue of good quality of drinking water to the common man. But still, this is a big challenge for a country like India. And I said earlier, because there is a constant of the public finance. And so we require more and more private participation in all these infrastructure projects. Question, sorry, Raymond, after you. Actually, I'm not an expert on water, but just as a consumer. And you mentioned agriculture. Actually, agriculture, great consumer of water. And manufacturing, great consumers of water. I think how to curtail wastage. I mean, you can apply technology. I'm sure you know better than I do. I think from genetic modification of grains and all that. Actually, you can develop plants and grains that use water more efficiently. Or it can grow with less water. And certain countries are quite advanced in such things. For instance, Israel comes to mind. So it's really a better transfer of best practice or technology around. Personally, it may not be a fair thing to say because being an affluent person, that you don't worry about the quantity of consumption. I think the world has been too focused on just quantity. You don't know, you can say a lot of prices of something like Walmart business model. But some business model that would enable anyone just to go into a shop on credit by 10 pairs of blue jeans. When I was in college, a pair of blue jeans lasted me for four years. Nowadays, any Tom, Dick, or Harry walks into a shop. Without thinking, without a blink of an eye, they'll buy three, four pairs of blue jeans. Think about the water consumption. Think about the water pollution created by these blue jeans. I mean, I don't want to pick out denim manufacturers. I'm just saying that as an example. So in a way, the world does need to also, I think, educate consumers to go for more quality of consumption, less quantity. And at the same time, you still need to provide the essentials or bring everyone's living standard up. That consumes water, okay? But if you think about jacuzzi, you think about huge flushing toilets and all that. I mean, it's things like this. The consumers themselves, especially the affluent people who, by per capita basis, are the biggest consumers of water need to exercise discipline. And I'm not saying that that may have immediate or short-term impact on profitability of certain businesses and all that. We don't want to see that happen. But technology and human ingenuity and entrepreneurship is such that if demand or consumer taste shift in some ways, there are other ways to meet that shift and be profitable. But I feel the affluent world is over-consuming. And we know that actually there are people who aspire to higher quantity of consumption still. Okay? A lot of people in China in the emerging, especially the continental-sized economies, in China, in India, places like Indonesia, places in Africa, yeah. I think it's the people with the know-how, people with the capital, people who are affluent need to think about these things and then how to raise the standard of living of those who are still aspiring while making maybe some sacrifices. You don't even need to make a lot of sacrifices. For instance, in China, I personally love to eat shark fin a lot. I don't eat shark fin no longer. Yeah. Things like this, people need to change. Thank you. There was a question in the back of the room, yeah. From Huaxia, my question is to Mr. Qian. Right now, in China, we are also working on the underground project. And DRC also approved many underground projects. But in recent years, we see rapid development of this sector in China. But there are also... It also means that some companies are incurring losses. I know your MTR is also making profit. So for the domestic companies, because they are not making profit, therefore the banks are not willing to make loans. So what are the suggestions from you? How can we improve? How can we learn from your practice? Thank you. I think for NDRC policy, I really support this policy because I mentioned in my intervention that the world economy is to go out of this kind of slaggy economy. I think all of us need to adopt some of the kinds of approach that is, he said, you need to spend money on infrastructure, on the human capital, and also on education. So these are very important measures, as I also mentioned, because at the moment, people are trying to focus more on regulation and financial intermediaries. They are constraining themselves for long-term loans. And also many of the speakers also said that worldwide, they are funding resources. The issue is how to encourage or how to have an enabling environment so that these kinds of funds can be allocated to this kind of large-scale infrastructure, which are long-term investment. So in the long run, it can generate a very reasonable return. And in terms of risk, the risk may not be very high. When we talk about the risks, investors, and this is how to look at the risks, they need to look at whether the government policies are stable or consistent. And also they need to look at, in the long run, whether the government or the country can win the support of the citizens. And if there is this kind of enabling investment environment, personally I feel that we can find ways to find money for the project as long as there is a good project. And if the policies are far-sighted and also the environment are quite enabling and stable, therefore it is able to attract the funds. As has been said by Mr. Liu, that if the commercial banks, they are having difficulties providing loans, then private equity or other types of private equity can also engage in this kind of business. And also personally I feel that in the next 10 years to come insurance company, insurance sector can also make investment in infrastructure. And also they can have very good return if they make investment. I want to supplement. For the underground project, it has a lot to do with the regulation and the supervisory environment. In China, by only selling the tickets, it is not possible for you to generate enough return. Actually it has a lot to do with the land policy. But the land policy in China is such. The land for the underground project is also going through options. So this kind of use of the land and selling of the land is dislinked. The same is true for the water. Water also needs supervising and monitoring environment and regulation. In China, we have a very big water project and each year the labor forces, the costs of which are on the increase and other costs are on the increase. But the water price remains unchanged. So do we have an automatic adjustment mechanism learning from the pricing mechanisms of best practices in other countries so that the price eases can be resolved? I think the infrastructure development needs the good involvement of the government. Thank you. Thank you. Hello, my name is Juan Pogaterra. I'm a global shaper from Venezuela. Basically, as a global shaper, I'm also a founder of a company called Group in Tech Solutions. We developed intelligent transport systems for the local governments in Venezuela. As a shaper, I have both a comment and a question for you. The comment would be you were tackling the issue of how to involve or make available the possibility of private companies getting involved in infrastructure projects for mobility and transport, which is very difficult since it's a public good and mostly it's a public sector that does investment. I think, for example, our case in Venezuela has been the possibility of monetizing the data that comes out of that infrastructure in order to finance further implementation of projects, large-scale projects. And that's a way to reduce costs on the infrastructure projects that you're developing and also bringing in the private sector with the new technologies to do that. And second, the question would be, as a shaper, my concern would be on regards to the funding that you're talking about and the new financing scheme that has been setting up. Have you considered the possibility in those funds of investing in R&D for new actors in the infrastructure business and how much of that is dedicated to not only building new infrastructure but also making more efficient the one that we already have? That's a really good set of questions. I wonder who would want to step up to that. I wonder whether Mr. Liu, on the financing side, it's something that you might want to respond to. For the basic infrastructure, we really need to make the present infrastructure more efficient. Here comes two issues. The first, the existing basic infrastructure needs to be updated and renovated. We need funds, and also it has to with the banks' policy, supporting policies from the banks in order to address the funding issue. The banks normally need a long-term loan from the banks. We sometimes need the A loans or technical innovation loans, but sometimes there's a mismatch. And also for the basic infrastructure investment, for example, the underground pipelines of water projects in Beijing, the renovation of which is very difficult. Beijing suffered from a big flooding in July 21st. So it means there is a lot of work to be done and needs a lot of funding. Only relying on the government is not sufficient. Therefore, we need to mobilize the sources and funding from the society. But we also need to have a standardized investment platform so that this kind of funding from different sectors of the society can enter into this investment platform. So we need to allow them to enter and make investment. And also we need to have a platform. So this has a lot to do with the regulation. Thank you. I don't know if all your questions were answered, but what was your final question? I might try to... A gentleman from Venezuela. And you have considered the funds that are available right now, not only to go after new projects of infrastructure, but also infrastructure of technology to make the one that we have currently more efficient. Yeah. I don't think I have a direct answer to that, but one thing I'd like to bring up is that the importance of infrastructure projects and continuous investing by various governments, by various cities, to continue to invest in infrastructure because it's a really good platform for you to accumulate human capital. And then you actually, through a particular infrastructure project, you can actually develop better know-how and better technology, applying new material and all that. So, I mean, it's a two-way street. So you don't even... it's sort of like chicken and egg, right? You don't necessarily have to invest in technology first because what it's done, a lot of especially applied R&D is driven by market prospects already. So, what you need to do is that I think for governments now, especially this is the challenge facing all governments, western government, Chinese government, emerging markets government, Hong Kong government, is that you have to have the gumption, you have to have the policy vision and you have to ask what Chairman Liu had just said. The right kind of policies and regulation and also for people who are actually managing the projects, you must have proper governments because you've seen so many instances where 15, 20, 25% of the cream is skimmed off the top improperly. These are things that you really need to cut back and that way you can, over the long term, maximize economic returns to the society. But coming back to this chicken and egg, I think you must undertake some of these what I call Keynesian measures these days because what they'll do is that they would actually generate a lot of their own external economies that can be shared and then by policy you can decide on how to allocate that. And R&D and new technology would be a beneficiary of that. Thank you. I think there's actually been some fairly specific research that's going on, particularly in the area of power, smart grids, that's really using the power of ICTs to make your power infrastructure much more efficient than it is today. So I think that there is some money going back into R&D to see how you can actually utilize this infrastructure better. And also in the area of spectrum, I know that there are a number of countries spectrum, I fully understand what you're talking about, but really and truly spectrum is a national resource tendency for governments to get as much as they can for spectrum. But what we're seeing is that there is a big debate as to what you do with your spectrum fees. But again, some of those spectrum fees are going into investments in the ICT industry. They're going into actually rolling out infrastructure in the areas that are unviable or uneconomic. And also they're going into, some of those fees are going into developing again what I would call infrastructure projects. So to answer the question of the gentleman about not paying enough attention to water, what we're finding is that as you invest in these big infrastructure irrigation projects with dams and all of that, you can actually create many power stations from those dams. So it's really getting a double benefits really or collateral benefits from investing in one kind of infrastructure, but also getting the benefits from another kind of infrastructure that we have. Again, I think that's interesting because I think we are also as companies and also as private sector have to think to operate in a different way and to create more efficient utilization of the infrastructure that we have. Again, on the telecom industry, I think we are started to look at how can we share infrastructure? It already started by sharing towers, for example, rather than everybody building his own tower for mobile communication. We can share more, more on the active side, rather than building multiple networks. We can build one and then we compete on the services. So that's another way by which we can reduce the size of the investment and yet more or less compete in a way to provide the best service also for the customer. So that also would need for private sectors also to go and find new ways to operate and to find new business models by which they can go and efficiently develop the resources that they have. Thank you. I think we have less than five minutes to go so we probably need to do the summing up. If I can ask each panelist and we'll start with Raymond, will each panelist to give us maybe 30 seconds on one idea or one thing that kind of stuck in their mind just coming out of this dialogue, this interaction, this question, answer and then we'll wrap it up. We'll start with Raymond. I think the basic, the fundamentals what Chairman Liu just mentioned, the government regulation is so important because it can be a disincentive, it can be a great incentive. You have to do it right. I think responsibility towards the environment, applying more technology towards water conservation, better use of what conservation people all want to eat more food, eat more nutritionally on agriculture, that's very important and now it's really the challenge of how do you restore the strength and maybe a sense of mission and ethics of the financial intermediaries in which they can become truly productive again where they're genuinely moving capital where it would yield over the long term the highest economic benefit to society, the world. I think, I hope that we have learned the lessons of 2008 and then we can indeed move towards a brighter normal but at the moment the jury's still out. Thank you. Minister Johnson. Thank you. I think what is stuck in my mind is really what the Deputy Chief Minister said in his opening comments and that was the fact that people don't want to pay for infrastructure, they see it as citizen seed, it's a right. And this is really where the idea or the concept of targeted subsidies really comes into play. Not everybody can afford this infrastructure so there must be, instead of these broad burst subsidies that we tend to give, governments tend to give, it's really targeting it more at the people that really cannot afford to pay. If you're putting out infrastructure in rural areas, the data's not going to be as, the traffic isn't going to be as huge as what is coming out of urban areas. If you're putting irrigation projects for dams for rural farmers, it's not going to be as productive as mechanized farmers. So it's really just finding that scientific way of ensuring that the subsidies are going to the people that need them and the people that can pay for that infrastructure are actually paying for the infrastructure and we can actually then begin to rule out that infrastructure in a much more accelerated manner. Thank you. Thank you, Mr. Johnson. Mr. Liu. I think that the first thing is that we need to break up the monopoly and the government need to provide a better regulatory framework in the legislation. We also need to allow the social capital to make investment in the infrastructure project. Thank you very much. Dr. Marat. Yeah, I believe that mobile technology is going to be disruptive and transformational at the same time and that is going to bring rapid change. That actually needs for us to invest further to make sure that broadband and data is going to be available because we know that is going to impact many industries. I think the challenge which has been taken for a given that this is going to continue and the investment is going to be made. What I'm going to say that it is going to be a challenge for operator to continue to invest unless there is a clear understanding from the government and from regulators that they need also to help the operators to put this infrastructure together. So that's going to be a major challenge. Thank you very much, Mr. Marat. We require a skilled workforce. We lack a skilled workforce and I think students for specializing in infrastructure so it can become like a boom in IT as there is a boom in the IT industry. In the same way there should be some courses, for the skilled how to improve or make available the skilled workforce and the second point is regarding in socializing a regulatory framework how to award the public private partnership projects how to award, how to prepare the documents. So this because in India we have a regulatory framework for petroleum sector for the telecommunication but in different other sectors like road and other urban infrastructure we require a regulatory framework and it should be institutionalized. Thank you, thank you. Thanks for the stimulating discussion, panelists. There are three thoughts that popped up for me. Clearly getting public private partnership right is going to be fundamental to solving the infrastructure issues or dealing with infrastructure issues over the next decade and more. Raymond, I love the idea your notion of Keynes and the governments will have to spend significantly to ensure we kind of pull ourselves out of those economic malaise that even today in the news that even countries like China are potentially being dragged into and this whole notion of the only way we're going to be able to do that if we put some kind of user-based mechanism in place while at the same time providing a safety net for the most impoverished in the society to ensure they can consume these capabilities as well. Thank you very much for the panelists and thanks very much for the audience. I'm sure the discussion will continue.