 Welcome to the wide world of eSports, a show devoted to all things eSports. I'm your host, Catherine Norr. Today, we're talking about diversity in eSports. Joining me are Joni Kraut, the CEO of Women in Games International, and GamerDoc, Dr. Lindsay Miglioir. Dr. Miglioir is the advocacy director of Women in Games International and the founder of Queer Women in eSports. Welcome, Dr. and Lindsay. Thanks for having us. I'm sorry. I kind of, I said, Dr. and Lindsay, I mean Dr. and Joni. Thanks for having us. I'm excited to be here. All right. Well, I think the first question, Joni, is what is Women in Games International? Yeah, absolutely. So Women in Games International is a global organization based in Los Angeles, California, and our mission is to cultivate resources to advance economic equality and diversity in the video games industry. So we are made up of male, female, non-binary professionals, and we promote diversity through development, publishing, media, education, and workplaces. So it's really based on this fundamental belief that increased equality and camaraderie among genders can make global impacts for superior products and consumer enjoyment and just an overall stronger gaming industry. Dr. Abhi, you've found that there aren't as many women in eSports. I mean, in any sort of STEM field, like eSports, like gaming, like medicine, there tends to be a dominant voice that is traditionally white and traditionally male. So eSports was no new field for me to come into. It just felt like going into medicine again. So yeah, it's a huge issue because not only is that exclusionary, but a lot of really good data out there shows that when you do become more equitable, when you do become more diverse as a company, you do become more profitable. And that's why I love Wiggy so much is because it's like, hey, everyone, include women. It's a great idea. You should do it to be good. But it's also like, and also it's a good business decision. So yes, I've found that. And one thing that I've noticed is I've had this show since July and most of my guests have been men. And I've tried really hard to find women guests. And it's been a little difficult. And it's interesting because in one of the trade association, what is that called, the eSports Trade Association? One of the get-togethers, I think it was either a webinar or a happy hour. I saw Joni there. I met Joni there. And it was interesting because I noticed her because she's a woman. And I was actually communicating with the women there because I really wanted to get some women on. So I'm really appreciative that we have a crew of all women today. So Joni, why was Wiggy formed? And when was it formed? Oh, so we were formed in 2005. It was an add-on to a conference. And it was really to promote women who were making an impact in the industry at the time. There wasn't really a lot of recognition for women in the games industry at that time. So a group kind of formed this idea of having this add-on to really give them that space and that recognition that they deserved. We moved on from just this add-on conference to actually being a networking event with GDC and A3. Those are kind of our two biggest parties that we're known for. And from there, we have been pivoting. And we are working on living in this new virtual space and this new world that COVID has created for us. And we're finding that silver lining of being able to really reach a global community and just kind of continue to build and grow. Sure. And why don't you, Doctor, what is your role in the organization? So I was brought on recently as the director of advocacy. And basically, my role is Wiggy has all these amazing resources and these amazing programs that we have and that we're going to be launching in the new year. And if you give people opportunities and you give people resources, what is affecting their ability to take advantage of those resources? So I am very prominently out as a queer woman. And when I experience a space, when I experience a conference, when I experience a workplace, I'm not just experiencing that as a woman. I'm experiencing that as a queer woman. I cannot extrapolate my queerness from my femininity. Those two things do not exist separately. So similarly, if there's a BIPOC woman with a disability who's an engineer, she doesn't go to work as just a woman or just a black woman or just a woman with a disability. All of those things are coming together. And so really the goal is when people are given resources and opportunities, you have to make sure that everyone can take care of them the same way. Everyone has the same opportunities and advantages to take those resources. And equity doesn't trickle down, right? It doesn't trickle down from the top to the bottom. We know that. We know that from the first wave of feminism. We know that from history is that you have to advocate for specific populations because if you just advocate for women as a whole, it's going to universally benefit white, cisgendered, Christian, able-bodied, middle and upper class women. So my job at Wiggy is really using our voice and using our platform to not just advocate for women, to advocate for all of those other populations that are also women, that are also needing a little bit of resources and advantage and making sure that our equity doesn't trickle down. It is a conscious decision to help all women and not just those specifically put in a position to take advantage of our resources. Terrific. So you're a very important voice in the organization. So... I'm just the other person. Joni's the important voice. So Joni, tell me what your role is in the organization. So I took over as CEO in October. I had originally started with Wiggy as CFO. I've been here about a year and a half now. So we really used 2020 to kind of take a step back and figure out what we wanted to do. What was our real strategy? Wiggy's been successfully building a global community of women, allies and underrepresented gaming industry professionals for over 15 years. So we had previously been pretty focused on creating impact through in-person networking events where we could create and foster a safe fund space for people at any point in their gaming careers. And so when I took over, one of my biggest pivots was to really figure out how do we identify what we want to be doing? Where do we want to be in one year, three years, five years? What are our intentions and how can we align our efforts and our strategy to meet those goals? So we've really been using 2020 to rebuild with sustainable growth mindset. We've added to our team. We've built out our board of directors. We've redefined our program models and we recently announced an updated logo and changed share branding. And really just redefining what it is, when you say in the gaming industry, what are you including with the gaming industry? So, and that's kind of how we have it into eSports and tabletop gaming as well. Okay, so earlier you mentioned that there are men in the organization. Doctor, what are the men's roles in the organization? It's basically like a club you would join in high school that your goal, you're like the green planet club. You're like the recycling club, right? Everyone's goal is the same. It doesn't matter if you're, who you are, what your role is in the company. Everyone is contributing to the goal. Everyone thinks that recycling is a good idea because we wanna save the planet. We all believe in climate change. We want to make this planet a better future. You have this a better future for the planet than can be. So it doesn't matter what you identify as, right? We all believe in the same goals. We all believe in the same overall goals. So men in the organization, the role is the same as women. It's just to make gaming a more equitable place for everyone because it's a good idea. So yeah, it doesn't matter what your identifiers are. Everyone's roles are the same. Sure. So how has it been, Joni, in 2020 with COVID? How have you operated and survived and thrived during this challenging year? That's a great question. We really use 2020 to take a step back. And previously we've been very focused on in-person networking events. And obviously we couldn't do that. So how did we pivot into a virtual space or in a way that we can still reach our amazing community that we've been building? And we've used this year to really find new ways to restructure. So we are launching short-term programs, long-term programs. We have new workshops. We're launching a monthly partnership program, which Lindsay is heading and defining. And that's very exciting. We're identifying new ways to engage with our community. And one thing that I'm very excited about is we are launching a scholarship program to get people who otherwise couldn't afford to get to gaming conferences. We wanna get them there. We wanna get them in the door. We're also partnering with Dress for Success to have different meetings to help get them to a place where they're comfortable to be at the conference and just make sure that they are representing their best, truest self. So I would say 2020, we've really been working in stealth mode to just build and restructure and figure out how to move forward in the best way. As you said, to not just survive but to really thrive in 2021 and beyond. And Doctor, tell us about the partnership program. Yeah, so we had discussed earlier, it's about advocating for other groups, other groups that women are a part of. So what we're gonna be doing is every month, we're gonna be highlighting a different nonprofit or company that their views really align with us. So a good example is take this, right? Take this is a gaming nonprofit that focuses on positive mental health in the space. Lots of women, there are lots of women who exist who struggle with mental health. Mental health is a big issue in esports and gaming. And so by advocating for take this, we're advocating for different subgroups of our population. So we're gonna be using our platform to share their mission, share their voice. We're gonna be hosting them on our monthly streams and discussing their mission, discussing how together we can make gaming a better place for everybody. And then we will also be using our social media platforms to champion their ideas. Sure, and Joanie, any additional plans for 2021 besides those you mentioned? World takeover? Yeah, world takeover, absolutely. We have a lot of really exciting things that we're going to announce and we're rolling everything out in January. We're doing kind of a new year, a new wiggy kind of promotion in January to really highlight all the work that we have been putting together behind the scenes, just creating those new initiatives and making sure that everyone is aware of these resources that we've been cultivating and putting together. How did, Joanie, how did wiggy get into esports? We, in rebuilding and restructuring, we had a lot of really great conversations around impact and empowerment. And we started talking about how to enable women and underrepresented people in the games industry, how to improve industry diversity, how to encourage and promote inclusion efforts. And we dug down deep and got to the point where we even were asking, how do we define the games industry? And one of my biggest first pivots as CEO was to really broaden that games industry perspective. I've always been a big fan of esports for over 10 years and D&D and tabletop gaming. And so it just seemed natural to incorporate kind of all gaming in that definition. And speaking with women in the industry, in the esports industry right now, there's a definite need for support and equality conversations to take place. We really just want diversity across the board and across every aspect of the games industry from video games to board games to esports. You name it, we wanna be there. We wanna be encouraging and supporting people. So Dr, how many women are actually involved in esports and gaming? That's a really good question. Esports has a problem, right? 50% of people who identify as gamers identify as female, 30% of esports viewers identify as female. But if you look at the overall esports earners for 2019, in the top 500, there's one woman. I think Scarlett was at like 320. And then you look at the overall esports earners for 2020 and there is not one person who identifies as female in the top 500. And you know this, we all know this, esports isn't just about the competitors, it's not just about the athletes. It's about the people in front of the camera, the people behind the camera, the people making the decisions about the orgs, the org leaders, the org C-suite. And there is a shocking lack of women involved in that space. There is a huge issue in esports of representation, of equity and of opportunity. So yeah, esports has an incredible need for diversity basically at the end of the day. Sure. And so women to me have the total capability to be as good as any man in esports. Is that right? Better. Better. Better, yes. That's the party line. It's so interesting because you talk about esports, you talk about gaming, you talk to people who might not know how gaming works, who might not know how esports works. And you tell them, okay, you're playing a video game for money. And that, first of all, that blows their mind, right? No one blows their mind. They're like, so you're telling me I'm playing Miss Pac-Man for money. So that's the first barrier you have to get over. And then you talk about the diversity, the representation issue in gaming. And that blows people's minds because they're like, how does testosterone have any advantage in the gaming scene, right? Why is there an issue, right? Because it's open. A lot of the tournament formats are open. You're in the fighting game community, you go to a gaming event, you submit your name, you get paired up with an opponent. If you beat them, you move on in the next round. If you beat them, you move on in the next round. If you beat them, you move on in the next round and you win the tournament. Last year, the Fortnite World Cup gave out like $20 million, $30 million in prizes. And it was completely open. If you wanted to qualify, all you had to do was place above a certain amount every single time in the qualifiers. So why is there an issue, right? If women were good enough, they'd just be good enough, right? They'd be in those final competitions. But the question that arises, how do you get good, right? You just don't read Ninja's book, but you have to train against the best in the field for a long period of time. How do you get involved in that? Well, before the Fortnite matchmaking system, you had to be in a Discord server. You have to be in a Discord server and you had to be invited and you had to be able to tolerate and read those Discord channels. Every person with a high-pitched voice, and not high-pitched, but pitched above medium-ranged voice knows what it's like to go into a Discord server or to go into a matchmaking lobby with your voice comms on, right? Immediately. Immediately you're gonna hear, are you a girl? Why aren't you in the kitchen? Or you're gonna hear worse things than that, right? It happens to me every single time I play. Every single time I try and play with friends, people who aren't friends, it happens. And for people who are 15, 16 years old, who have just discovered multiplayer gaming, puberty's hard enough already to inject that type of toxicity into your life is unbearable. It's unbearable. And people, they stop using voice comms. What happens when you stop using voice comms in gaming? You no longer can play competitively, right? You cannot compete in eSports without using voice comms. Teamwork is a huge part of it. And so women and people who have voices who don't sound like certain people or people who have a certain tolerance for words that are being said, get pushed away from online gaming at a very early age. They're not competing against the people who are the best. Therefore, they're not getting as good as they can get. Therefore, they are not competing in the competitions and winning the competitions like they could be. So that is really a huge barrier. The first barrier that has to be broken down in eSports is stopping toxicity when it starts, right? 14, 15, 16 year olds. Shouldn't, you know, Twitch released a band words today. You can't say simp, you can't say incel and you can't say virgin, right? And people freaked out, people freaked out about that. But it's like, of course you can't. You shouldn't be saying those words. You shouldn't be regurgitating the slang that Tifu and Mongrel and everyone are saying. The culture of toxicity in eSports has to change and it is changing and that people who don't change with it will be left behind. And it's so known that this is the problem. You know, like when I started doing research on eSports it was very, it was mentioned everywhere that there was discrimination within eSports. So it didn't surprise me when I found out about your organization, Joni. So Joni, do you have any thoughts about that? I think we just need more big names to support diversity and inclusion and show that it's important having a statement that truly stops harassment and having those words and kind of that extra layer of showing that you, if you're silent, you're supporting it. If you're not speaking against it, if you're not calling out the toxicity and the harassment you might as well be doing it yourself. So I would say finding big name companies and top gamers or performers who are going to speak against it and have those specific pushes to promote inclusion and diversity within the industry is one of the bigger things that we've seen make the most impact in having it stop and making that change. The eSports is so young. It's such a young and growing industry. There's so much opportunity for, I mean, eSports fans just love eSports because it's an online gaming community that allows you to participate regardless of your gender or what you look like or disabilities. And that's really what we wanna promote is allowing people to be within that safe space and just have fun and be themselves. So Dr. What makes eSports barriers different than gaming barriers? It's once you inject that competition, things become really different. So a really interesting paper came out earlier this year and it looked at collegiate eSports programs. It looked at the diversity in those eSports programs and then it looked at the level of funding they received. And the higher the funding, the higher the amount of institutional involvement, right? Once it stopped being a student run club that they had to fundraise for their own money and once it became more of a coach advisor with their fell under the athletics program or they fell under the extracurricular program, as soon as the institution and money started getting involved it started getting less and less and less and less diverse. The student led programs tended to be pretty diverse, more diverse than most eSports programs are. And then the institutional ones tended to be the traditional eSports demographic. So once you inject any amount of competition, any amount of money into something, people inherently are like, okay, I wanna win. I wanna make some money. I wanna get more sponsors. And the easiest way to do that is to follow the traditional mold, right? The easiest way to do that is to say, I'm gonna do what everyone else is doing. I'm not gonna think for myself. I'm not going to advocate for other people. And then that's it. Because the thing is is that eSports programs, if they want to win, right? They want their program to succeed, they're going to recruit from the people who are the best at the video game. They're not doing any outreach. They're not doing any training. They're not doing any sort of, and where are they recruiting, right? Where are they recruiting their players from? These are all factors that take into account the demographic and makeup of these well-funded eSports programs. I think that it's just such a struggle when eSports, like any brand new industry or field, when it starts to become something, where do you get that guide map from? That guidebook, that map from, how do you decide the next steps to take? And there isn't a great book, right? There isn't a how-to guide and how to start an effective eSports program. I mean, there's a couple. So people tend to fall on the easiest path of least resistance, but those aren't the people who get into eSports, right? The actual game changers in eSports, the actual ones who are making a difference are the ones blazing a trail, right? And so, we have to just try a little bit, I think. Sure, and so what is performance allyship? Yeah, so performative allyship. So that's a really good question. So why are you advocating for a group that doesn't look like you that you don't belong to, right? Why are you saying, hey, black lives matter? Hey, I'm gonna celebrate for Pride Month. Hey, it's Hispanic Heritage Month. I'm gonna talk about this group. What are your motives behind that? And for a lot of people, for a lot of people it's genuine. I wanna do better. I understand my privilege. I wanna help. I wanna understand the plight of other people. I wanna contribute to this cause. But for a lot of people, especially when you get into the corporate sphere, it's because they wanna look good and they wanna make themselves feel good. So, Crest, oh my God, Crest. They, I think a couple years ago for June for Pride Month, they turned all of their packaging rainbow. All of their packaging became rainbow for all of their toothpaste. Why did they do that? I'm not sure. They didn't give a lot of money back to the queer community. A really good example is that person in your family who or your friend group who post a picture of themselves at Pride, right? They're at the Pride parade. They've got their rainbow eye makeup on. They've got a flag around their back. But then when they're at Thanksgiving, three months, five months later, their cousin says that they don't believe gay people should get married and they keep their mouth shut, right? They don't confront their cousin right at that moment. They're not advocating in that moment. And then your cousin goes to work and says that to his coworkers. And one of his coworkers is probably gay. And that coworker is now feeling that statement and that pain. If you don't confront your homophobe cousin, you don't get to post that picture at Pride month, right? That's performative. It's not doing anything. You got to put your money where your mouth is, right? Like if you support something, you got to support it. So that's something that I get really passionate about. Oh, well, that's super interesting. So now on a kind of a different topic. Joanie, what do you play? What games do you play? Oh, I'm a huge fan of World of Warcraft. My gateway game. I know. I also like to undo, so definitely nerd. My favorite esports game is definitely CSGO, though. That's the one I come watch for hours in. I'm not good at it, but you know, it's kind of... Okay, and how about you, doctor? I'm the worst esports person. Like I love watching Valorant. I love watching League of Legends. You know, I'm getting really into Rocket League. It's like tier two, tier three, but it has the capabilities to be tier one. But at the end of the day, if you give me, if I have an afternoon off, I'm playing Fortnite. I am. And Fortnite's esports scene is in shambles. I mean, it's never going to be a tier one esport. It's hard for any battle royale to become a tier one esport, but the way that the competitive scene is arranged with Fortnite, like I touched on earlier, it's open, right? It's always open. They have very few invite-only tournaments anymore. And so as such, it's like, if you were to turn on Monday night football and the Steelers were playing the Ravens, but Ben Rafflesberger got beat out by a quarterback from Wisconsin, whose name is Jonah Smith, right? And you're like, I don't know who that is. I have no idea who this kid is. I don't know anything about his background. Fortnite's competitive esports scene is always changing. The names are always changing because the meta is always changing, right? They introduced, they buffed Aim Assist in a recent patch. And if you don't know what Aim Assist is, it's, you know, if you're aiming with a mouse and a keyboard, you have an intrinsic advantage because it's easier to aim rather than moving two sticks around. So they added, whenever you moved your controller towards a player's head, it would snap onto that person. So they buffed Aim Assist so all of a sudden, all the people who were playing Fortnite competitively at a high level were controller players because Aim Assist was too strong. And that was like a month. And then all of a sudden they took away Aim Assist, right? They nerfed it. And all of a sudden, all those controller players were gone and it was back to the PC players. So every time they changed the meta, different people pop into the scene. So esports, Fortnite's esports scene is not great. And that's why, when you asked me what my favorite game is and I don't feel any shame, but some people might give me some smack, you know, talk smack to me. But I stand by my decision. Me and all that six year olds. Sounds good. All right. So anyway, Joanie, how can we find Wiggy? Yeah, if anything today resonated with you, we would love to hear from you. We are at getwiggy.com, that's G-E-T-W-I-G-I dot com. Subscribe to our newsletter. We send that out every week on Wednesday. And then reach out to me directly, Joanie at getwiggy.com and I'd be happy to hear from you. Fantastic. Thank you both for being with me today. I learned a lot. Thank you so much for having us. Yeah, thanks for having us. It was a pleasure. And don't contact me, contact Joanie, everyone. So thank you our viewers for joining us today. My next show will be on January 6th when I talk with Jennifer Uchen of Augment Ed about esports and education. Wishing you happy holidays and looking forward to seeing you. And then next year on the wide world of esports. See you then.