 Welcome to What The F Is Going On in Latin America and the Caribbean, CodePink's weekly YouTube program of hot news out of the region. In partnership with Friends of Latin America, Task Force on the Americas, and Massachusetts Peace Action, we broadcast every Wednesday 4.30 p.m. Pacific, 7.30 p.m. Eastern on CodePink YouTube Live. Today's episode is Justice for Bertha and Victory for the Guaipanal Eight with guest Karen Spring, who is the host of the podcast Honduras Now. She is also the in-country coordinator for the Honduras Solidarity Network. I want to give you a brief background before I have Karen join us. So Bertha was, for those of you who don't know, Bertha was a Honduran, Lankan, environmental activist, indigenous leader, and co-founder and coordinator of the Council of Popular and Indigenous Organizations of Honduras, Copin. She won the Goldman Environmental Prize in 2015 for a grassroots campaign that successfully pressured the world's largest dam builder to pull out of the Aguasarca Dam at the Riyadh Gualcarque. Did I say that correctly? Gualcarque. Six years ago today, she was assassinated in her home by armed intruders after years of threats against her life. A former soldier with the U.S. trained special forces units of the Honduran military asserted that Kasotis' name was on their hit list months before her assassination. Her assassins are yet to stand trial. Some good news. On February 24, after 914 days of arbitrary imprisonment, the defenders of the Guaipanal River were released. The village of Guaipanal sits downstream from an open pit mining project in the Carlos Escaleros National Park. Many locals view the mine as a threat to the regional watershed. Newly inaugurated Honduran president, Gia Mara Castro, has declared justice for Bertha and on February 28 declared Honduras free of open pit mining. So Karen, welcome to tonight's episode and I think maybe a little better title for today's episode is the fight for natural resource sovereignty and against neoliberalism and privatization of those resources and the lives. That's right, Terry. Yeah, I mean, yeah, thank you so much for having me and it's such a pleasure to join you and Code Pink in this program. Once again, I'm really excited to chat with you today and definitely on this topic. So why don't we, well, today's just a huge day, sixth anniversary of the assassination of Bertha Castro. Let's talk about her, her life's work, and just, you know, give appropriate homage to her since it is the sixth anniversary of her assassination and no one has stood trial yet for her murder. So tell us a little bit about who she was and the work that she did and how that now relates to this fight in the village of Guaipanol. Sure. So Bertha Castro was a very unique activist. A lot of people talk about her as like an environmentalist, but she was very, very, she was anti patriarchal, anti capitalist, anti racist. She had a very, very unique ability to bring movements and bring struggles around the country, around the region together. And she, she spent her whole life fighting in resistance, denouncing crimes mostly against the Alanka people that are located all in Western Honduras. But she teamed up with indigenous groups all over the region to sort of fight for indigenous rights, sovereignty, territorial control. Bertha was just like a mastermind of so many of the strategies that her, the organization that she co-founded, Copin, which is still in existence and which is run now by Bertha's daughter Berthita. You know, she, they would, they wouldn't allow mining in their territories. They fought against hydroelectric dams that would never bring electricity to Alanka communities. You know, to, they defended forests from illegal logging. And it was just her, her vision was just so unique. And that's what made her one of the most amazing activists in Honduras. But it's also what made her such a target for the elite, for the military in Honduras and for the state. And so her struggle is still much, still so much alive. I mean, Copin calls it the Bertha Cáceres cause because, you know, Bertha Cáceres was murdered and a lot of people think that she was just murdered over her fight against the construction of the, the Agua Sarca Dam on the Gualcarque River. But really she was murdered because of her vision, of her resistance of, you know, her, again, like fighting against mining, just like the Wapinol 8 are doing and, and just her long trajectory of activism in the country. So I mean, her vision and her struggle is very much linked to this victory of the Wapinol 8. You know, both the Wapinol 8 that were in prison for over two years for defending their water source, as you mentioned, Terry. They basically, a lot of them sought their inspiration from Bertha and from her struggles and both Bertha and the Wapinol 8 were defending water, were defending the rivers. And also just would not accept that mining companies could come into their territories and just dictate whatever they wanted to do. And, you know, and because they both Bertha and the Wapinol 8, you know, didn't allow that they were criminalized, like they tried to send Bertha to prison as well, just like they did with the 8 Wapinol water defenders. And so there's just so much connection between the two struggles. And so today, as we commemorate Bertha Kasadis, six years after she was, you know, murdered in her home, we're looking at this victory linked to the struggle to defend territory in Tacoma, Cologne, where the Wapinol communities located. And we're seeing just how much they're connected, what Bertha started, the Wapinol 8 moved continued forward. And it's very much just connected. And so while we commemorate Bertha's assassination, we know that her, the seed that she planted all around the country is being continued forward and it's growing in other places, like in the community of Wapinol. She was such an inspiration in her lifetime and even more now, you know, after her death. I so remember that morning, the morning of the second six years ago, I got a text from Honduras, I mean, very, very early in the morning, sometime between like three and five a.m. Pacific time. And it was just so shocking because so, so many of us, I mean, it was shocking, not because of the work and because, and we all knew that of the threats, but the year before, in 2015, she won the Golden Environmental Prize. And I think so many of us, particularly in the States, so naively believed that was like this invisible shield for her. We really, really believed that. Yeah. And it's funny because she, no, I'm sorry, go ahead. I said, we just really believed that it was just so, you know, the morning of March 2nd, 2016 was just so shocking, you know, on several levels. Yeah. And I mean, she won that award in the midst of like the heat that was on her for defending the Gualcarque River and the struggle to stop this internationally financed hydroelectric dam. And the people that murdered her are connected into the military structures of the state. They're connected all the way up to training from the United States military. And, you know, really, it was the international system that killed her and the capitalist system, the neoliberal global neoliberal system that killed her from the international financial institutions that funded the dam and that looked the other way when she said specifically to them, you know, this dam is violating our rights. It's linked to murder. Please stop funding it. And they wouldn't. And so, yeah, I think a lot of people thought that that the Goldman Prize would protect her, but it really basically put a target on her back in many ways, and it became very difficult for her. And so today, Coppine did a whole commemoration of Bertha in their training center in La Esperanza, just like they do every year. And what they do is they commemorate her planting is what they call it, the siembra de Bertha. They say that she's been planted and she grows and grows like a seed instead of her dying. And, you know, she was murdered the day and she died the day she was the day of her murder. But instead, she just sort of continues to grow and grow. And that's what they celebrated today. It's a really, really lovely ceremony, the things that they do every year to commemorate her cause and her life. I'll put the link to, can I put the link to that event in our comment section? Yeah. And actually, Coppine live streamed it. So people they have concerts, singers and yeah, they have a it's a it's a great event and it's really inspiring. I'll share that with the audience. So those of you watching, I'll put that in the in the program notes actually, so that it's there for you. You mentioned global capitalism and neoliberalism. And I remember one of the first things said after the coup in 2009 with the Lobo government, one of the first things that he stated as new economic and foreign policy was Honduras is open for business. And so that is kind of put the whole natural resource extraction industry on steroids at that point. Oh, yeah. I mean, they lifted the moratorium on mining that had been imposed because of that event. Honduras is open for business. They later created the framework to the Zedes, the zones for employment and economic development, which is like neoliberalism on steroids, like privatizing parts of Honduran land and selling them to the highest bidders. They privatized the National Electrical Energy Company, which is why there was a huge race to get concessions on rivers to construct hydroelectric dams because companies were like, wow, they just saw dollar signs and profit from the construction of those dams. And so basically Honduras was open for business just like ushered in this neoliberal model that we know all too well in Latin America and how damaging it is to the majority of the population to the benefit of a few and a few people in the countries, but also to the United States, to the so-called global north and to the international financial institutions that are often the masterminds of this model that is being implemented all over the region. Let's, I mean, Honduras is kind of the petri dish for all of this since June of 2009. But there's one huge thing that's happened and I'm happy to say I was part of this with you both in November and again in January. November, I think most of the audience knows that the National Party was put out of power with the election of Xiomara Castro in the Partido Libre Coalition November 27th of 2021. And Kara and I had the honor of attending her inauguration January 27th of this year. So, and it was just so wonderful to see her campaign platform and then immediately after her inauguration I mean that very very day some of the policies went immediately into effect foreign policy decisions specifically but now as of Monday there's been an overt halt to open pit mining. Yeah, I mean the government, the Xiomara government has, I mean they're, they're facing extreme difficulties like an economic crisis has been declared in the country because of this the situation of the economy and the situation of the state and state finances in itself but the Xiomara government is. The situation that they've inherited. Right, yeah absolutely. Thank you for specifying that but 12 years of it to a dictatorship like a narco corrupt dictatorship means that you know the state institutions have been totally like ransacked of funds and so despite the challenges that they face I think that you know the governments the new government the Xiomara government's been in power for a little over a month and they've just tried so hard to fulfill campaign promises that are really inspirational for a population that has sat through and fought through 12 years of a U.S. backed dictatorship. So for example like you said the foreign policy gains like they immediately recognized the Maduro government in Venezuela and booted the Guaido representative of the Venezuelan embassy in Honduras that the dictatorship had had supported and then they you know they've created made electricity free for people poor families that consume less than 150 kilowatts a month they which is like huge which covers like over a million families around the country in a country that has 9 million people. Yeah and just the other day one of the ministers sort of declared Honduras free of open pit mining which I mean is a fantastic news for the whole country but also for the WAPI 08 and it's sort of the legacy of Bertha Cacidus and of the WAPI 08 and the struggle that they went through and the imprisonment that they faced to have a government now say that listen we're going to declare this tear our whole national territory free of open pit mining something that I don't think is the case in the rest of the region Central American region and so this is this is huge and granted it's not law yet and there's still a lot of challenges and a lot of people are sort of like what are these companies a lot of them Canadian and American are they going to sue the state for loss of profits are they going to use some of those international free trade treaties to to sue the state but the government seems to be really willing to fulfill the promises and to overturn a lot of the laws that the dictatorship put in place for the benefit of a very few families and US and Canadian companies basically so it's been really inspiring Terry I mean it's not easy and the government is not perfect but I mean it's amazing to see what they've been willing to do in just over a month and it's very inspiring and it's it's created a sense of hope in the country that Honduras is black for so long and there's a lot to be said for hope and for feeling hope again and even for me you know I'm just it's nice to go to Honduras and and know that you know the heaviness of the narco dictatorship is it's still kind of there because it all the structures haven't been dismantled but it's just nice to know that you know there are friendly faces in the government that are willing to open their doors and give space to communities and movements and organizations that have been excluded for so long from those spaces well you know I think one of the first things I said when when you and I met in Tegucigalpa it was like Saturday the 22nd of January or so was that and you also we I think most of us who were election observers in November would say the same thing even on November and on election day was there's this feeling of allegria in the country that I don't I don't ever remember I don't ever remember Honduras having you know people actually smiling you know and there is it is lighter and and happier in that sense of hope has created enormous opportunity enormous opportunity for the people oh yeah and I mean it's so it's for me it's been really interesting because like I I was in Honduras I moved to Honduras in 2009 so I only know Honduras under an arco dictatorship I don't know anything else I don't know another Honduras you know obviously Honduras know another Honduras those that are you know were born before 2009 but I don't and so you know it's been so nice to see people that were in the streets like fighting against the coup that were protesting the coup are now in positions of power and you know it's it's really nice to see that it's very inspiring and so I'm really looking forward to see what the government will do in the next couple of months and obviously for the next four years that they're in power you know you mentioned how some of the institutions have changed and that for sure again going back to the the evening of the 22nd which I'm referring to for our our viewers is was the vigil that at the time president elect Castro had called for in front of the national congress in Tegucigalpa and how many people showed up but we all commented on the attitude of the police in the military they were like I don't want to say friendly but in but relatively speaking yeah they were actually they were actually friendly I mean I was just almost surreal pleasantly surreal well yeah I mean the first thing that Ziomara did when she arrived there that day with to the congress was is that she demanded that the police remove all the barricades that stop people from surrounding their congress and being underneath the congress because they're the congress is sort of on stilts or or posts I guess I don't really know how to explain it but it's like on yeah yeah and it's interesting too because I mean when and and this is awesome news for your audience too is is that so an extradition request came for Haunerlander Nandis to and you know ex-president less than three weeks since leaving office he was asked to the United States Southern District Court asked for his extradition and so when the police were like gathering around his house waiting to arrest him they didn't use barricades they weren't allowed and so people were showing up there and it was like much more of a I think because the police in the military are now like there's a woman in charge of them and so she's made these statements that you know this is like I'm not going to accept you know a military and police that commit abuses against the population and so it's been really nice to see that change of attitude granted it's not going to be easy because there are still groups and like you know organized crime working inside these institutions but I think that it's really positive to see the attitude of these institutions change because of an order from one a new president that's progressive into a woman so it's been really nice to see that it's I mean I think it shows at a very very human level that maybe almost so I don't know well I don't want to say almost everyone but a good a good majority of the country really does want to change on a very human level really oh absolutely yeah oh absolutely I mean she's one of the most voted presidents in the history of the country I don't think she's like the most but she's want she's right up there like top like two or three or something and I think that just the turnout in the elections was around 70% and I think I don't remember how many votes she got it's it's it's slipping my mind right now but huge majority very very clear that in people say like me president like this is what we want we voted for change and they they and they talk like that like we expect change because we voted for president the president and so um yeah I think that um there's a lot of hope um in what the amara can do one of the things she campaigned on was freeing the black panel eight and um and that happened last week can you share with our audience um what their struggle was how it started give a little bit of history as to the you know they've also won human rights awards as well for their um for their work and their resistance and um yeah so the what we know well the it's interesting terry it's actually really important for a us audience to know this but I mean the reason why the what we know eight and the there's there's more than just eight people that are accused in that case but basically what happened is the a huge us steel company called new core corporation decided to team up with a hundred mining company and wanted the raw materials in that in that um reserve that national park and right where what we know is located and the what we know community said no you don't because they started building an access rodent to and like and destroying in a natural or a national park and a like an area that's supposed to be protected and so you know teaming so new cork teamed up with this hunter and mining company and so the stakes for this hunter and mining company got so high because they were like we're we're being backed by this really powerful us steel company like we need to cloud down this this mountain we need to get rid of everybody that's going to resist our mining operation because we need to get those raw materials get them exported to the united states or to wherever so that new cork can use them as raw materials in their steel manufacturing and so you know the what we know all community said you know as you're building this road into this um into this park this national park our water is getting like dirt in it and it's getting like we can't use the water the animals are dying we can't swim in our river anymore and so they started like a farm animals yeah okay oh yeah and and them themselves like they couldn't wash their flows in the in the river anymore they would turn their taps on and mud would come out or like really you know muddy water and so they started they basically created like an encampment blocking the operations of the mining company and that is what led to this incident which led to basically charges trumped up charges against 30 or something leaders mostly leaders in the community and eight of those like 30 or something that were charged basically were sent to prison and some others were sent to prison but they were released and then but eight stayed in prison they were first in a maximum security prison again built by the united states um and with support from the hunter and dictatorship and then they were sent to a normal prison and they stayed there and you know there was massive solidarity campaigns terry there was you know so many different organizations co-paint like you guys were involved like the hunter a solidarity network there were so many i mean i it's impossible to name them all there was universities there was they had a like the team had a communication team they had a legal team they had all these like scholars on an international level the un said that they should be released amnesty international so there was this massive campaign to free them and despite all of the pressure the the hunter and corrupt hunter and court system wouldn't do it because the owner of this mining company that's teaming up with new core is one of one of our lander and this is cronies um and so ho who controls the supreme court basically just refused to release them and so when zeomata took power in january um it sort of changed the attitude in the country i feel like judges in the that were you know would generally not think twice about being corrupt i think some of them started to be like you know i don't really know how corrupt i want to be they started thinking twice because you know they know that zeomata has a really strong anti-corruption position and so i think like the political context and the solidarity and the huge amounts of campaigning and then just the dignity and the and the and the powerful nature of the wapinal struggle sort of led to their release and it's very inspiring i mean they've been um recognized by the national congress the new congress just um um gave them an award or like a nomination of some sort of award um they were uh zeomata in her campaign speech said that she would free them there was an amnesty law that was passed to release them but um i think that just over time the state couldn't hold them anymore and had to release them so it's a huge victory and it's something that everybody that was part of it big or small should should celebrate they were in prison for over 900 days that's that correct 914 days i believe that's the yeah so i mean yeah that'd be that's pretty hard for those of us you know raised in the us to think being in prison for 900 days for protesting the development of a national park especially given how we prize our national parks um in the us yeah i mean that's just really you know one of the things also i think it's important and i know you're very good at talking about this and and and you have actually you actually have personal experience with this that you know when these were eight men that were in prison for 914 days and the principal breadwinners of their families and family is extended in in Honduras culture and community oriented as well so well they're in prison for 900 plus days their their families are at threat as well security threat economic threat and health and welfare food all of those things yeah and i mean just like in the us when you send someone to prison you send the whole family to prison and then you add the sort of the difficult political context of this specific struggle of guapinol i mean the families were getting threatened constantly armed people showing up outside their homes unusual things happening military and police just showing up in the community or or or shots fired in the distance to scare people threats i mean it was endless and i don't even know the extent to the threats but i know that they there was a lot of fear in that community as as the families fought for the release of their of their um you know brothers and sons and husbands and partners and um and so sending them to prison i mean now that they're out this process of healing starts like first of all they're they have to run them run the mining company out still because the mining company is still trying to push forward and um you know and they might be successful because of foreign investment and the role of new core corporation in that investment um but also they have to heal from being in prison i mean being in prison is not an easy thing i mean you know my partner edwin was sent to prison in honduras and no years later the the effects of that imprisonment stays with you and stays with your family because it affects your whole family so they need to rebuild their lives and these are they're still going to need support but um i think that we have to celebrate the victory of them being released it's an important moment so inspiring well and for edwin edwin too when he was released from prison it's so inspiring for everyone else risking their lives to do this work and not just in honduras you know all over the world latin america specifically and i think you know i'd really throw in columbia uh because it's so violent there um against indigenous people and environmentalists um it's just so it's almost unbelievable actually and so so inspiring and motivating for so many people to see that despite the extraordinarily you know extraordinary risk that's it it's possible it's it's really possible and um so um well i guess i should tell the audience that maybe we can share a link to your honduras now podcast because you attended um the trial of the eight guai panel eight every day you were there and you have extensive notes and coverage and commentary about it and it's really worth uh for those of the audience who want to know more it's she Karen did a phenomenal job covering the trial but now that they're free what does this mean for other uh individuals in honduras and organizations and i guess i'm specifically what comes to the top of mind for me specifically is the garifuna community on the atlantic coast of honduras what sort of hope and inspiration is there now for additional groups pushing back well i think there's a lot of hope i think that the i think that the release of the wapinol um the wapinol uh water defenders i think that that has it's a huge victory and i think people are very happy about it um but it hasn't been easy and you know despite the fact that the context in honduras is changing because of the new government there are a lot of things that are going to take a long time to um change and one of that one of those this is the attitude of the military and the police and also the organized organized crime that has taken over honduras and so ofrinae which is the black paternal organization of honduras that represents the garifuna people on the north coast the atlantic coast like you mentioned um they are still facing a lot of threats and they also have been you know arrested and put in prison for defending their territory and because they are black and they face a lot of racism um from global structures global policy but also nationally and um their struggle is is very important and very unique too but i think that um they're so united too and they're very strong in their in their struggles i think that um there's a lot of possibility there um for some victories as well and i mean so far there's been a lot of um garifuna leaders in the Trujillo Bay area which is really close to wapinol actually who've been arrested and all of them have been released after facing after being in prison a couple of nights so i mean it's it's not easy because being arrested is never fun and it's horrible and it takes a lot of resources and time but i think it goes to show that they're very united and they're they're just moving forward and they they'll keep fighting and resisting and so i think wapinol is a really important victory and it gives a lot of hope and it reminds people that if you keep fighting you can achieve what you hope to achieve um so i think that that what is both of the seeds of bertha's death a huge yeah her planting her planting even though it doesn't sound it doesn't sound right in english but in english yeah but look at but look at what's happened i mean here here we are talking about you know the you know the victory of the wapinol eight on the sixth anniversary of her assassination it's pretty it's pretty amazing her life was amazing oh yeah and here we are and for sure she was present in that right every single time there was a there was a gathering or a protest or anything related to wapinol there was pictures of bertha there was altars for bertha there was candles lit for bertha and so everyone knows that she's present and she's there fighting as well and you know through her her siembra and the seeds that she's planted in different struggles around the country bertha vive how can um how can our viewers get involved where can they get more information on both bertha on the wapinol and on your work i guess i'll have you just share all those websites and twitter accounts and i'll post them for the audience as well so but yeah so that's a lot but yeah those are gonna be a lot of links so like sorry oh that's good but i mean it's good yeah if people want to know more about bertha about her her cause about her case um uh one of the people that was convicted for um murdering being involved in her murder which was a military officer that was trained at west point he actually is going to be sentenced in april and um and not everybody like for example the family that financed the dam and that financed her murder or the international financial institutions have not been held accountable so people can check out all the things related to her case um on copine's website it's copine.org or orc they also have a fantastic social media they have instagram they have twitter they have um facebook and a great website where all that information is located and then for the wapinol they have a website as well it's called wapinolresiste in spanish dot org and that's where a lot of information and actions and everything are are located if people are interested in that struggle um and then i'm a member of the hundera solidarity network just like hodepink is and so people can check out the hundera solidarity networks social media um and that's so just google hundera solidarity and there's a facebook and twitter and then if people are interested in my work i um posted um i'm posting on hundurasnow.org and i have a twitter facebook and instagram hundurasnow basically is um what it is and people can check out my podcast called hundurasnow because that's a mouthful terry but um that's where basically people can get more information it's so great for people to know how expansive the work is it's really great and i really as i mentioned before to the audience that you know your podcast is is fantastic um for anybody for many many issues and all things related to hunduras but but um specific to to today's episode is your coverage of the weaponry trial that was phenomenal work that you did diligently every day and it was amazing i think it's important to mention now that you're you're you're saying this is is that um i feel like hunduras i'm a big believer that um international solidarity played a huge role in getting overturning 12 years of dictatorship in hunduras and even though like a lot of people don't really think that you know writing a letter or sending like ten dollars or twenty dollars to the wapinol political prisoner families or is very much i feel like like every everybody that just sort of came together and worked together i feel like there's a lot to be said about solidarity and the importance of how much we pushed for 12 years and just like you know getting the voices of hunduran organizations out there assisting them building you know working off what they were saying and demanding and and getting it out there more internationally and so i think that all the people listening tonight that took action in any way pat yourself on the back it's a victory thank you for doing that and there's just so much work moving forward and people can check that out on the sites that i said before okay how wonderful and i will post all that information in the program details as well so that all of you can reference that so karen thank you for another wonderful conversation and for all your work and for all your knowledge it's always so great to talk with you and work with you i just really feel very privileged to know you and to be able to share work with you as well so well same same to you terry thank you so much for having me you have a fantastic program as well every week it's a big commitment but it's so important and amazing and thank you so much to code pink for the work that they do around the world and and in hunduras so thanks for having me again it's a pleasure thank you and then i want to remind our audience that you've been watching what the f is going on in latin america and the caribbean code pinks weekly youtube program of hot news out of the region we broadcast every wednesday on code pink youtube live for 30 p.m pacific 7 30 p.m eastern you can also now find us on apple podcast and uh and spotify hesitate to say spotify i guess it's a little controversial right now but it's there and wherever you find your podcast and also uh be sure to catch code pink radio which broadcasts every wednesday morning 11 a.m eastern 8 a.m pacific on pacific o radio stations wba i out of new york city and w pf w out of washington dc and be sure to catch hunduras now as well so okay everyone we'll see you next week and um thank you thank you for tuning in