 We hold these truths to be self-evident that all men are created equal, that they are endowed by their Creator with certain unalienable rights, that among these are life, liberty, and the pursuit of happiness. These words from the Declaration of Independence are familiar to many of us, and yet it took 143 years for women to get the right to vote and 189 years for Black people to get the right to vote. And still today, life, liberty, and the pursuit of happiness are still only words for many people. Here in Boston, life expectancy varies by 30 years, depending on where you live. In Roxbury, with many poor and Black people, life expectancy is 59 years. In the back bay, wealthy and mostly white life expectancy is 91 years. It's tough to have liberty when you are in prison. The United States incarcerates 716 people for every 100,000 people. Our rate of incarceration is more than five times higher than most countries in the world. Millions of people in our country don't have health care, a decent job, good education, a home they can afford, and that makes it pretty hard to pursue happiness. So on this show, you are going to meet people who are making it possible to have life, liberty, and the pursuit of happiness. People today who are making the words of the Declaration of Independence come true. Hello, my name is Michael Jacoby Brown, and I'm happy to be the host of We Hold These Truths. And today, we're very honored to have with us as our guest, Jean Dubois, a longtime veteran organizer and executive director of at least two community development corporations. Jean, welcome. Thank you, Michael. Yeah, tell us a little bit about your background and where your values came from to become an organizer and a social justice leader. Well, I think it came probably growing up as a granddaughter of a minister, a Presbyterian minister. My mother eloped with my dad. She was Irish Catholic, and so they didn't speak to her until my brother was born three years after that. So there was tensions there between the Catholic and Protestant stuff. And that was always an issue. My granddad, the Irishman, was so exciting, and he always made things happen. But he didn't go past high school, but he made money and even bought strips of airplanes, I mean, fields of airplanes after World War II. He was in construction, his old uncle's company. So somebody like him didn't have anything beyond a high school education, but said, when you're building bridges, you go down to the solid rock, and none of his bridges ever washed away. So that's an example of the kind of what I call cowboy entrepreneur missionaries. That's my background. So there's something about going for it, going out west, building things. They hit a dinosaur, I mean, not a dinosaur, a rattlesnake nest in the mountains when they were cutting, you know, how the railroads, they were building railroads too, and they blew up this cut, and there were like a thousand rattlesnakes flying through the air. And with stories like that, he was exciting. He always knew he was going to bring a good story. So how did you get into organizing? Tell us a little bit about that. Well, I was a teacher in Wisconsin where I had gone to grad school and, you know, a feminist, and it was the late 60s, and the teacher thing was all through the 70s, but I met the Olinsky people in Chicago when they came and were trying to help the teachers get a little more political in their work. And who was that you met from? Well, Arnie Graff was from New York, and he was an organizer with the Olinsky network. So I really liked him, and they said, well, if you're trying to organize people, what are you doing hanging around with teachers in school rooms? You might as well come down to Chicago and check us out. So I did, and I really liked what I went through for them, just a shorter training time. But then they had me go to Buffalo, where I took a leave of absence from my teaching. And even my teaching is sort of similar to my granddad, where, you know, we broke a lot of rules. You know, we'd have all kinds of speakers. We even had the people that were the leaders of the Attica Revolt back in New York, way back in the early 70s. Prison Revolt. And we'd have, you know, gay liberation speakers. We'd have women doctors and, you know, all kinds of unusual people when we look at what is normal and what is abnormal. So I was accused by one guidance counselor of messing up the kids. You know, he said, you're messing them up. And I thought, well, he said, if you feel that way, why don't you go burn all the books in the library? Well, I guess DeSantis must have learned that lesson. So tell us, I know we met in 1980, 81 at Mass Fair Share. Tell us a little bit about how you ended up there and what you've learned over all those years in Oregon. Well, I worked with the Alinsky Network for two years in Buffalo. And it was a life-changing experience. Yeah, how so? Well, I think people in Madison did a lot of talking. I mean, they were good people and they were trying, there were those who went and started working with unions and, you know, right. And I was organizing with the teachers, too. But it was all kind of verbal and the real organizing, I didn't see as many results. And I felt like we needed to learn more about how do you actually pick something and change it. So that's what I think they taught me. And I also felt that there are a lot of limousine liberals, as people would call them. Not everybody, but you talk a good line, but that doesn't mean you're able to make change. And I think we all had that to learn, too. So that's what it was, starting with short-term immediate specific winnable issues with a target, all those things that are like smart goals. And just working with regular people in Buffalo, these were blue-collar people who had nice little houses and raising their kids and working. And that was a steel town. There was a lot of US Steel and other companies. But a lot of people lost their jobs there. And poor Buffalo was really in the dumps. But now it's actually booming. It's getting gentrified, which is the other problem. So tell us, what were some of the issues or actions you did back, that was in the late 1970s? Yeah. It was like 78, 79. What were you actually doing then? I was organizing with, we had 42 churches in something called, I forget our name, United Housing. No, no, I forget the name of it. But it was an Alinsky-affiliated organization. We'd go to meet with other people organizing around the US. So it was two years of really learning, and we could pull off 2,000 people in a convention and make progress. We got 42, well, we had 42 church members, mostly churches. And we had some union people. And we got a lot of slum landlords to either clean up or tear down their bad properties. And they were also buying properties up and down the future rail line in Buffalo that was going to take people right out to the suburbs, where somebody with influence or people had gotten University of New York SUNY, Buffalo, located out there. So it was, there was a lot of corruption there. And the guy that used to run the United Way was a member of the mob. And even the mob was pretty active there in Niagara Falls. I was just there four years ago during big storms. And I went on a tour of Love Canal. And it's still burbling. They fenced it off. But people are living, literally living, right near it. And the mob runs that town, or did. So fast forward a little. I know you were in Massachusetts and you started Project Act. Well, Massachusetts. I went there. I knew Heather Booth and we talked about their network. And I felt in some ways that I needed to try an alternative. And my dad died. So it was a tough time. But I think just going to Boston and joining MassFair Share where I met you. Yeah. Again, I was assigned to Rosendale and Hyde Park. I'm still there. We bought a house there, raised our kids there. And again, it's what's nice about that neighborhood is it was working class and middle class people, a lot of Greeks, a lot of Irish, a lot of Italians. Not too many people of color, but now it's 50-50 in Rosendale and Hyde Park is 73% people of color. So it's actually very interesting now and more vibrant, I would say, because the people that really had issues around race probably left. And the people that were still here stayed and they're enjoying their neighbors. And that my street where I live is like that. And we've had our we'll be going on our 32nd block party in a row. Yeah, this year, next month. So yeah, I've kind of fallen in love with the neighborhood. And I worked there with Fair Share. And then again, I felt to use my experience in Buffalo with all the religious community. We started something called Project Acts Association of Churches for Training and Service. And we got the Greek Orthodox, Catholic and Protestant folks together didn't have any synagogues yet. But now that's that literally metamorphic morphed into Greater Boston Interfaith, because I left after I had my first kid. And I think I think Lou Finfer helped. He stepped in at that time. But I think then when the IAF kind of came back, the Alinsky network, and I always admired them. So we helped get different churches to support the kickoff. And my own church Hyde Park Presbyterian, my granddad was a Presbyterian minister. We were one of the co co founders. And we're still members. So that was, I don't know, it's been a long time, like 20 plus years, 30, 30 years. Do you have any lessons you think they're important from those years? Well, I was mentioning earlier about my four point theology. Abedience, risk, power, and joy. That if you're obedient to that calling that is in your heart, in your soul, listen to that and act on it. Then you take a risk usually, like starting Project Acts or going to work for fair share. And as soon as you do that, taking that risk, you are sent power in the form of people and money. Because what I learned from the Alinsky network is organize people and organize money is power. And so when people have it, you win things, then you have joy. So and I've used that over and over and over again for myself. I say my prayers each day. You know, I'm not a Jesus freak. I just feel that a faith community is helpful. And now I belong to a church with about 40 members. And five of us are white and the others are all Jamaican or African. And it's a great little church. It actually has more life and vitality, though it's small than it used to when it was like 20 old white people. No, that's great. And then I know you worked for many years with Dorchester Bay Economic Development Corporation. How did that transition and switch? The key was the Rosendale Village Market. We needed a supermarket to be an anchor business. And this was just all volunteer. I was on the board of Rosendale Village Main Street. And my son was a baby. And I didn't even have the second kid yet. But we organized over 600 families and raised over $80,000 and went to foundations and got a purchase and sale on the property near the old market. It was a dead market. And the people that bought it, we asked them to sell it to us and then rip it down so we could use the two parcels. But that was a real experience because that was my first experience in actually building something and organized people and organized money. And it wound up becoming an anchor for the Rosendale Village Business District. And it's been a success. It was business of the year in 2018 on its 20th anniversary. But we needed a supermarket like that. And we didn't want it to be a big chain or have just a lot of salt and fat. We wanted a healthy food, so there's a good mix of organics. Of course, every store is that way now. But we wanted to make sure it was. But that is what got me into Dorchester. I got a call one day and the board was looking for an executive director and they heard about the work we did on the village market. And I went for an interview and they offered me a job. I had been working during those years raising money for the, what's now called Blue Hub Capital, was Boston Community Loan Fund. Yeah, so BC, Boston Community Loan Fund. And I was there nine years and raising, or eight years and raising probably by the time we left, we had, by the time I got there, we had 400,000 of capital raised to make loans to groups who were doing affordable housing. And when I left eight years later, we had about eight million, maybe seven million dollars in capital. And it was below market. And that's, I think, what Dorchester Bay was looking for is somebody who's not afraid of raising money. And it's also about organized people and organized money. So then going to Dorchester Bay, EDC, we had 300 apartments and home ownership units. And by the time I left 20 years later, we had 1300. The last 300 were in construction. And then we also built two big, 14 million dollar factories. Digital printing because the people needed jobs. And also that what's now very famous, the Commonwealth Kitchen, used to be the old Pearl Meats building. And that one was fun because the Jewish families used to live in that area. And then slowly, you know, hemorrhaged out, you know, good old real estate speculation and, you know, all that. The rabbis, the book, Hillel Levine's book, when they were throwing acid at the rabbis and, you know, vandalizing their synagogues, it's just such a hideous story. But I think, I don't know, it's all that is about obedience to a calling, I think, whatever, whether it's a religious one or a political one, that voice inside of us. And now I'm reading a book about the tradition. It's called Anam Cara, which is Gaelic for soul friend. And the guy that wrote it, his name is O'Donohue. And he's dead now, but he wrote it about 25 years ago. His concern is there's not enough soul in what people are doing. But in Ireland, way back in Irish tradition, and my mother's from an Irish background, there's this sense of the belonging to the land that's a very strong thread in Ireland. And you're near the sea. And, you know, there's not a lot of wealth there or there wasn't. But that's my great, that's my granddad's history, his family came over during the famine. So I think the Irish tradition is, don't forget your soul. Let it drive you, because that's where the creative stuff is. And maybe that's where that obedience thing came from. So what's it saying to you, Jean? Says, find more people like us. And I've found a number. In fact, I'm very close friends with a woman named Adriana Cillo. She came here as an Italian, couldn't speak English, went to St. Thomas Catholic School in Jamaica Plain, was harassed by all the non-Italians, mostly Irish, I'm afraid. But she wound up being harassed by a bunch of mean girls. And she actually slugged the leader. And she has that kind of spirit. But she also learned from this nun how to speak English. So she's one of my closest friends now. And I spotted her when I was an organizer with the churches. She helped win a footbridge so the people who lived in her area could get across to Hyde Park Avenue and catch a bus. That's something you're really good at spotting people. How do you do that? Because I know you spotted Felicia Richards and other organizers. Felicia is a good example. Yeah, no, I'd like to know how do you spot people? Well, one, they don't have to talk all the time. But they're smart and they're not afraid of talking. And Felicia was one of our tenants. It still is in Hyde Park. And when they were looking, we put together this big coalition of four CDCs initially. Now it's just three because the one I'm at a pan didn't continue. But when we won this big Kresge grant to work on climate change and with local activity, as well as state legislation, we were looking for organizers. And we watched Felicia. She was the chair of our organizing committee at the CDC, the Community Development Corporation. So our CDC started in 2001. It's now over 20 years old. This is Southwest Boston. Yes, that's what I run now. And what bothered me is they had 30 units, 35 units when I got there. And now we have 95, four years later. So, you know, we just got to get moving. We had a private guy that would loan us money to put down deposits. But Felicia is a good example of she would run the organizing meetings and she was clear about steps to work on something you could win. And she treated people right. She didn't bully people. And there's a lot of verbal leaders that just bully people. And one of my best friends who's Irish immigrant, she's like that too. She's really, she's clear. She's strong. She has confidence, but she's not a bully. And she has a huge family all around her. Let's talk a little bit about the development. You've built these houses. Now we're in Boston, where there's this incredible housing crisis, little apartments, triple-deckers that used to sell back in the day for $30,000 are now $2 million. A single apartment is $600,000. What have you learned in all those years of development? What's going on here? And what is possible to do? Outside speculation and corruption and cozying up to various politicians. That's what it's all about, people making huge money. I think it's a war and I'm happy to be a part of the war. But what's effective? I mean, you've done some work. What's effective is we were buying houses. I have pictures that we can show you. The smallest ones were three-deckers. The biggest one was 26 apartments. But we were just buying properties as much as we could in the last four years. So now we're up to 95 apartments. Well, what's it going to take to really solve this problem so people who are in gazillionaires could actually live in Boston and buy a house? Part of it is organizing people and money. So the good people, like all of us, need to cooperate, like up and down the Fairmount train line now. We've got a lot of affordable housing built either as home ownership or rental. And what does it take to build it now that's to allow it to be affordable? Well, the key is the city gives us a subsidy. So where somebody else would have to... I can't remember. I think the smallest property we bought was three-decker. And we paid $799 for that one. And then we had a four-family. We paid $900 something, $1,000 for that. But the prices were already going up. But now it's almost double that stuff. It's crazy. And my own kids, if I hadn't gotten a three-decker in 1981 for $31,000, we could all afford those. But that's where my kids have both lived without paying anything. So what is the city or the state or the federal government or people have to do to solve this problem? I think the CDCs are one important vehicle because we have experience buying, building, and also we built 27 new apartments right before I got to Southwest to Hyde Park. So the community development corporations... They play a role, but you need to be working with your organizing groups because they get bogged down in the details sometimes. And you can't lose your vision or your outreach to the local neighbors. Any project that we worked on in Dorchester, we'd always go out and see all the neighbors first. What do you think? We worked closely with Dudley Street Neighborhood Initiative, as Peter, what's his name, is an old group. But they're good. They're always focused on the people in the community having a real voice and also making sure that all the different ethnic groups have even roles and balance on the board. Can you describe any stories or what's effective in doing that and who the opposition is? Well, I would say the main opposition, well, the stories of the CDCs helping win with the community organizing groups. So we had two big coalitions all the way up and down. And so even Newmarket Business District became a part of that. So there's Fairmont Indigo Transit Coalition, which the organizing groups kind of led that. But they were doing organizing that the CDCs couldn't cover all of that. So there was more power that way. And we won the $200 million to get four new stations on the Fairmont train line. That's a big win. That's a very big win. Then we kept organizing, and still are, we got the fares lowered to MBTA level, the Boston Public Transit. And then there was, we won more trips per hour and weekend and evening service. And now we're working on electrification. Right. So what are the lessons, if you would look back on really what's 50 years of organizing, what would you tell people are the lessons you've learned and what's necessary for people to win other kinds of things? Don't stop and always use the four steps. There's my theory, my philosophy. You're going to say it again. But here's the four steps of organizing that we just talked about. One-on-ones, you got to go listen to people. House meetings. People will form a group like Lawrence Community Works. We just have groups just so that people could get to know each other, these house parties. And then they'd have a first Friday where the leaders of those groups would share learnings. And, you know, from those little things, they have gotten more than 20% of all housing in Lawrence being affordable. So we're only at 13% in Boston. That's outrageous. It's outrageous. Cambridge I think is up to 20%. Secondly, so you're doing your one-on-ones, then you have your house parties. Then people pick something that's short-term and winnable so they get experience winning, whether it's a supermarket or, you know, in Buffalo we had a dirty supermarket and we got it cleaned up. We didn't have to build one. And then, so one-on-ones, small groups, group research, you go down, find out who is the decision maker on such and such a short-term issue, eight to ten week long issue. I had high school boys from the public housing in Rosendale going down to meet with the Parks Commissioner about the pool that had been shut down by prop two and a half, way back. And all the churches worked on that in Rosendale and we won. We won the Flaherty Pool and the kids, but they were a part of that. And when they came out of that meeting on the research trip with the Parks Commissioner, they went up to this TV guy that was filming somebody else and said, do you want to interview us? We just met with a commissioner. Right. If there was one thing, because we've got to end now, if there was one thing that you would like to tell younger people getting into organizing and social justice, what would that be? I think everybody should learn it. It is not just civics. If you learn these things, you will be successful in anything you try because it's always about relationships. It's about following a vision that you all agree on. It's shared vision. You're learning to do research. You're learning how to work with small groups and you're learning how to negotiate and win on things that are small and then huge like the rail line. Yeah. Thank you, Gene. These are real things. So we just want to thank you for listening. Our guest today, of course, was Gene Dubois, now the executive director of the Southwest Boston Community Development Corporation. And we look forward to seeing you again. Again, my name is Michael Jacoby Brown and I'm your host where we hold these truths. And we look forward to seeing you at the next thing. Thank you very much. Thanks, Gene. It's great to have you here. Thank you.