 Remind you of anyone, a friend, a political acquaintance, an actor you've worked with, a character? No, he's a, he is himself and no imitation of anyone that I've ever known, but I must say this, he is, I have found him quite different from other leaders of his country that I had known before and spoken to before. How does he compare with other world leaders that you've encountered? How would you rank him as a negotiator? Well, he is, he is that and he's a consulate negotiator, would you say? Well, he's, he's, I think he has the stature that goes with his position and I think maybe Margaret Thatcher described it best of all when she was the one who met him before I had and was probably one of the first of the Western leaders to meet him and she said, this is someone you can do business with. Is there, what is it in his style as a negotiator? Is he cunning? Is he aloof? Is he a sort of fellow you really have to knock heads with? Oh no, he, well he doesn't, doesn't hold back, but no, you don't get any feeling of cunning or anything, he's, he's straightforward, straightforward, yes. What advice would you give President Dukakis or President Bush in dealing with Gorbachev? Well, I hope that I would only have to give the advice to President Bush. And what sort of advice would you give? How to deal with the man? Oh, I think I would just relate, well I already, he knows a great deal about our meetings because I've related to him and the things that we've done and, and he's had his opportunity to meet him also, so he's met him and knows him and I think it would just be more an expression of my hope that he would carry forward with what has been started and what I think is, has set us on a pretty good course. Could Dukakis stand up to Gorbachev? Well I don't know Dukakis that well, but I just, I'm quite critical of some of the things that he proposes as answers to problems that he thinks he sees, and I don't think some of the problems exist, so I just don't know. Well let's go back to you, what was the most frank and heated exchange of this summit? Chief of Staff Baker noted that at your very first meeting with Gorbachev, the two of you struck sparks, what was that about? Well I'm not sure in the very first meeting that we struck sparks, unless he means that we established a relationship and got along. His impression was, what he said to the press was sort of a more confrontational heated exchange that you had. What was the most heated exchange of the summit that the two of you had? I think when we really got into the subject of human rights and so forth, well after all he's been raised in that society, he tends to believe the things that he's been told about us as he has grown up and over the years, and I think he sincerely and honestly thought that we were attempting to tell them how to run their business, and he pointed out things that he thought were wrong here. What did he say to you? Well the type of things that would be in their propaganda that homeless people and we hadn't taken care of our racial problems and so forth, that sort of thing. What was your response when he talked about the racial problem? Well my response was to be as frank as I could with him and tell him what our problems had been, what the actions that have been taken to eliminate some of the things that he spoke of, and to give him as much information as I could about our society. And also at the same time then to make him see that I wasn't really trying to run his country for him, I was trying to point out things that would make it easier for us to eliminate some of the difficulties between us by explaining that our country was made up of people from every corner of the world and that public opinion could have an impact on what I could do in the line of compromise with him because of people in our country who still had an interest. As I explained it to him once, I told him, I said, you don't stop loving your mother because you've taken a wife. And I said the people in our country, everyone, has not only the feeling of being an American. But the feeling of their heritage and the people who have come from the Soviet. And then when they hear things that they think that people there and in many instances it could be relatives that are being ill-treated. You speak of love of mother, the question of love of God as well. Since becoming General Secretary Gorbachev has mentioned God a number of occasions. Do you believe that he and Mrs. Gorbachev believe in God and that it affects their public or private life? I had that curiosity for a time because I was so surprised in the use of the name a few times and I couldn't figure how I could really get into a one-on-one conversation on them knowing where atheism stands in their country. You know, you cannot even be a member of the Communist Party unless you are an atheist. And did you ask him about this belief? But I never had an opportunity. I kept thinking if I could only catch him with just my interpreter around. But I never did. And then I think I was correctly informed by a Russian expert who, I don't know how the conversation came up, but he told me that no, that was commonplace and it was God with a small g. This is their expression. Yes, it was just a form of expression. Well, do you believe that in order to be an ethical person, an ethical man, a person has to believe in God? I've never given a thought to that. I don't know how people who don't believe set their rules of conduct. I'm sure there are people who are atheists who, at the same time, abide by the general rules of conduct that we all believe in. I'm just wondering if it would make his moral makeup more suspect to bring in the question if in fact Gorbachev didn't believe in God? Well, the thing is I think that their society can do things to human beings that could not be done without that. But you also have to look at this thing that, in spite of them officially being an atheist nation. The new changes. Just millions and millions of people who believe in God were raised that way and they do still allow the one church, the Orthodox church, to practice its religion. You're known as a superb storyteller. What, please share your best story from your trip to the Soviet Union. That'll really help this article to get a sense, give me your best pearl that you dropped or a story that you... Well, I don't know. Are you talking joke or incident? A joke or incident. Incident. Well, there are two ways to answer that. Let me answer in both ways. One way on the joke. I have developed a kind of hobby of finding out stories, jokes that I can actually establish are told among the people of the Soviet Union. And it shows they have a great sense of humor and sometimes there's a little cynicism about things just as there is, I suppose, in any society. But one day, here in our Washington meeting, I decided to tell him, having to go through an interpretive course, one of those jokes. And this joke happened to be that the story was that an order had gone out in the Soviet Union to the motorcycle police that anyone caught speeding was to get a ticket, no matter who they were. Well, you know, the bulk of the cars are being driven by what they call their nomenklatura, the government officials and all, and their drivers. And the story is that Gorbachev came out of his dacha and he was late getting to the Kremlin and his driver was there and he told his driver to get in the back seat and he'd drive. And down the road he went, passed two motorcycle policemen, one of them took out after him. And then a few minutes he's back with his buddy and the buddy says, did you give him a ticket? And he said, no. Well, he said, why not? Oh, he said, no, no. We were told to give anyone a ticket and he said, no, this one was too important. Well, who was it? He said, I couldn't recognize him, but his driver was Gorbachev. And I got a great, he appreciated it. It was a great laugh. I thought it was very funny. From this summit, an anecdote or incident, something you really think back on as a moment when you're now thought back on the summit? Well, I'll tell you, more an anecdote, not a story, would be the first time in Geneva. Yes. Here I am, brand new, and so was he. And I'd sat here through three Russian leaders, all of whom died, so there was never anything like a summit on the anniversary, such a thing. Our people had told me that the summit would be a success if we got no more than the agreement for a follow-up summit, another summit. Well, I made up my mind something I was going to do, and I told our people about it. And that was when we finally sat down across the table from each other, he and his team and me and mine, as the meeting started, and it started on arms reduction, arms control, I addressed him and said, look, why don't you and I step out for a little bit and get some fresh air, let them talk about this, and we'll come back and rejoin him. Well, he was out of his chair before I'd even finished the sentence. And we took off, and I had a ring, this was in Switzerland, as I say, and it was near the lake, and down by the lake there was a bath house belonged to this estate that we were using. And so I had beforehand seen that a fire was going in the fireplace down there, and so we strolled down, and I said, why don't we go in and sit down, and we didn't sit in front of the fire, we talked for an hour and a half. And of course, we were accompanied by interpreters, but just that's all that was there, he and I and the interpreters, and we talked for an hour and a half and finally figured we'd better go back and rejoin our group. Well the minute we started, now we'd discussed a lot of things, but they were probably discussing also, I said things to him like the line I've used so many times since that we don't distrust each other because we're armed, we're armed because we distrust each other, and it was a very unique situation that he and I, in a room together, perhaps could hold the fate of peace or war in the world in our hands. Is that one of the moments, years from now, you look back, say you're in Bel Air, and you look back and say that was the moment that summed up the garbage of Reagan relationship? Is there a moment like that where you look back even now? I think that a chemistry had started, because then when we left there and started walking up and accompanied by his security and ours and all, why then the conversation was just what it would be about the place and so forth and talking things, and I don't know what it was he said something about our country, just as we got to where the cars were parked before we went into the building where the meeting was going on. And it prompted me to stop him, and I said to him, you have never seen our country. Let me invite you now. Let us agree that the next summit will be held in the United States. And he said agreed, and then he said to me, and since you've never been to Russia, he said the following year we'll have the summit in Russia. And I said agreed. We shook hands on it and we went in, well, when the meeting was over inside and I told our people that we had already arranged two more summits for the next two years, they couldn't believe it. Well, now you've gone to the Soviet Union. As you were driving to Gorbachev's Dacha, you had opportunity, dusk was setting, you looked out the windows, you've always wanted to take Gorbachev and show him on a plane right over the states. As you're driving, this is your first chance to see the Soviet countryside. What impressions did you have? What went through your mind as you're looking out the window? Well, it was beautiful, but before we got to that open country, there was a thing that had impressed all of us, and I must say to this day is just warms my heart. The Russian people, they lined the streets by the thousands whenever we were going any place in the motorcade. And I mean, when it was just us and their warmth of their greetings, it was, you couldn't have asked for anything better, the waving, and your arm could get weary. And finally, I rolled the window down a little so that I could get my hand out and wait out in the open. Well, that even increased their enthusiasm. But now in this ride, when we left the town, left that, now I was interested in the countryside. What did you say? What remains? The Moscow, at least around in that part of it, maybe generally, I don't know, is surrounded by a beautiful birch forest and deep woods. So you were going through a beautiful countryside and woods, and then finally came to where their dacha was. And there had been, in the distance, you could see one or two more in the area. But it was just beautiful countryside. Tell me about the dacha. What was it like when, I sure, I assume he gave you a little tour. What did the dacha seem like? Well, it was, they're still doing some work there. It would be a fine home here in our own country. It was not a palace or anything, but it was a lot of land. Nice. Well, it was hard to tell because it's in the forest there. And any little items that you noticed in the dacha? Well, it was brick, but it was in kind of their style and of the Soviet style of houses. It was attractive, very comfortable. Owned by him or owned by the state? I never found out. I don't know whether that's his or whether that's one that is owned in a sign. Any items laying around? Things that caught your eye that you thought were fascinating? Well, one thing wasn't anything like just seeing an object or anything, but added to the house had been a wing that your first reaction was it's a greenhouse. Well, actually it was just as high as this were the walls and they were glass, but the ceiling was very solid construction and well done and so forth. So when you got in, it was, in a sense you could say a greenhouse, but it was kind of a winter garden. And then there were beds in there set in the floor where there were various kinds of flowers and things growing, it was very attractive and we went in and saw that. People in glass houses, I guess. Well with their long winters, they probably have to, they're going to have flowers during the year, they're going to have to have something like this. But it wasn't attractive in a home-like place. The Soviets chided you for sermonizing on human rights. In fact, by the end of your visit Gorbachev was clearly exasperated. You didn't really care about the reaction of your hosts, did you? I mean, you really wanted to reach out and stir up the Russian people. Well, I wanted also, no I didn't want to set him off and set back any gains that we might have made and I questioned this thing about, I saw no exasperation whatsoever. It wasn't Gorbachev a bit out of line though, lecturing you for lecturing him. I mean, this is a guy who routinely lapses into sermons when talking to Westerners. Well, but lately that has not been true because I've made him understand that frankly it wasn't a case of bargaining and saying, well you change this with the way you treat your people and we'll do this. Not that at all. I made it as, with his glass nose tonight I've read his perestroika and I told him, I said, look, I'm making a suggestion to you that I think would be helpful on this. And then I told him about some things like, for example, the immigration problem and so much of it, for example, one religion as we know, the Hebrew religion and how many of them want to leave. And I simply made the suggestion that did he ever stop to think that maybe there was a suggestion too, that they might not want to leave if they were allowed to practice their religion? Does he ever give you an answer as to why people don't have the freedom to leave or freedom to travel? Well, no, because right now that has loosened up considerably. We have made gains there. I understand that last year some 86,000, 86, 800 Jews were allowed to emigrate. Well, that is a big step from what had been taking place in the first few years before he was in office here. When the Soviets began the recent withdrawal from Afghanistan, the Soviet general declared, quote, the withdrawal is not a defeat. He called it, quote, the fulfillment of the Geneva Accords. Many Americans consider this hot air. Don't you agree that the Afghan pullout is, in fact, a defeat for the Soviet Union? I think the best thing for me to simply state is that it was the proper thing to do. This administration, his administration, had nothing to do. They had been in there nine years. So that had done it. Whatever was wrong, and it was wrong for them to try to do it. And I think he was using common, good common sense in getting out of a bad situation. Well, let me ask you this. There's new unrest in Poland. Armenian demonstrators in the Soviet Union, protests in Moscow, a defeat in Afghanistan or a pullout of Afghanistan. Don't these developments give you some twinge of a secret satisfaction that things are not? It makes me feel that the people are showing their support for the Glasnost proposal. And it's evident in their conduct there. And we have to recognize that he does not have a completely free hand that there are people in his government that don't want to change. And what it appears to me is that he has the people on his side, even though he does not have the nomenclature and some of the government. Let's say, some people say Gorbachev will not last. Could a subsequent Soviet leader, if he came to power soon, still reverse his reforms or is the Glasnost genie out of the bottle now? I don't know. But anyone that tried to reverse course, I think, would have to be either foolish or extremely careful because I think he's had some practical, good ideas there that he's trying to get. And he has something more than just whether the people are happy with it or not. He inherited a terrible economic problem. And that economic problem has been brought on by their vast military buildup. So this is another reason why with him there's practicality in trying to come to agreements on reduction of arms. And you realize that he is the first leader of the Soviet Union during his time. This is the first time that the Soviets have ever agreed to destroy a weapon they already have. There are all their other arms control things were, well, how many more will we build? And we'll set a limit on how fast we build and so forth. This is the first time someone has said, no, we'll wipe out some weapons. In 1986, there was a flap over spying at the U.S. Embassy in Moscow. You stayed this time at the Ambassador's residence during the summit. What precautions were taken to deter your Soviet hosts from eavesdropping? Well, I think it is routine with visitors like ourselves there that you are to assume that you can be heard wherever you are or that if you're in a taxi cab, one of their cars, the driver knows your language as well as his own and so forth. So you just automatically watch your conversation. Let me ask you this. Let's look back for a moment. On the table at Reykjavik was a plan you put forth. It called for the eventual elimination of all ballistic missiles. But because of a dispute over SDI, you stalked out of the meeting. Some say that moment will go down as one of history's great lost opportunities. Mr. President, Congress is wary of funding SDI and there's no assurance that a Republican will sit in this office next. Did you ever look back and regret that moment you walked out of Reykjavik? Not at all. Not at all. What we had talked about was a thing and we had been coming to agreements there aiming at weapons, including conventional weapons and the reduction of all of these down there and never had there been any, we were apparently in agreement. And there had never been any argument and suddenly when it seems that we're agreed that we should turn our people loose to start by stages, that we were agreed that all of these various weapons should be eventually eliminated, then he threw the curve and said to me, yeah, all this can happen if we stop SDI. Couldn't the two of you have sweated it out some more that night? No, we were hours late then for breaking up. The meetings were all supposed to be over and there was no further conversation unless a flat agreement then in advance that I would quit SDI. And I said there was no way that I SDI was not a bargaining chip and it isn't. I believe my ultimate dream and goal would be the total elimination of nuclear weapons. Now I see SDI as the best way to achieve that. The whole thing came into being when I early on, in my first term, called a meeting of the Joint Chiefs of Staff and with all of this buildup and the mad policy, mutual assured destruction, we're supposed to feel safe and sleep nice at night because we know that we can both blow each other up and that's supposed to be the detente that will keep us from doing something. I asked the General Chiefs of Staff if they believed it was possible, today's technological world, that no weapon that's ever been invented by man has ever not been followed by defensive weapons against it. And I said, isn't it possible that there is a weapon that could, beginning with where those missiles start out of their silos that we could defend against nuclear missiles? And they told me they'd like to talk about that and think about that. They thought it was worth thinking about it. And they went away and I came in here and a few days later they called and asked for a meeting. They came over and we met and they said yes, they think it's possible. Well I said then let's start the research, let's go. Well the rest of this history. Before it goes to the phone. Before it goes to the phone. We had enough breakthroughs. They didn't have to break here. Well I just want to go through these photos. That's a minute to flip through. All right, these are the, I just want to ask two questions and we'll go through. We really have to go to another meeting. All right, what's the first thing you did when you got home and the door of the family quarters closed behind you? When you got home from this summit. Oh. And the door of the family, you're finally back from Moscow. Well we'd had an overnight in England before. I stopped there in a little different climate. Well no, it was just good to be home and all of a sudden to look at each other and say we can talk out loud now about anything we want. And that was it. Let me show you a few photographs. Here you are in the car. If you can describe your emotions as you go through looking at the crowds there. Well there's just a few here because I must tell you that usually and perhaps back here from where we'd gone and down ahead we're really jammed three and four deep at the curb. But this was what we... Get a good photographer. Pete, did you take this one? But this was what we did and they were all enthusiastic in their waving back and this was the window that finally I got satirated trying to do this that I lowered this window a little bit and then put that part of the window. Well when they could see a hand actually out the window even before the car got there they just increased their enthusiasm. Senator Baker is handing you the INF Treaty here. What was your emotion at this point? You finally got the INF Treaty in your hands. Well yes, the fact that I was going to be able to present the articles that had to implement it when we came there, he did not have it with him but it was going to be brought by the two Senate leaders. So what is he showing you there? Well, he was showing me here the... The articles of the treaty? Yeah. What was your reaction? Did you celebrate that night? Did you... Well, didn't wait until that night. I just felt very happy and relieved. You doing anything special? No, because this is in Air Force One on the way. If you remember the President made a phone call the night he learned he'd been passed and talked with two leaders. That's the... That's right, I've seen the pictures on the other. What's going on here? Is this a cake, a dessert? No, it wasn't a cake, it was a... Souffle? Well, yeah, a whole kind of thing like that. And it was so beautiful that I kind of had to inquire do you break into the side of it or do you just... Scoop out the top? Scoop out the top or not. And I think I ended it up that you also took some of the side. Some of the side, where was this? This is... It's the reciprocal dinner. The reciprocal dinner. Did it taste good? Yes, delicious. Now what do you do... I think it looks like you're pointing at Sam Donaldson here. What is the circumstance for this? Actually, this was taken in the White House here. Before your trip? No, this is on a press conference. And always before, when they're all assembled in there and before I'm introduced and going in, I look and try to find where some people are and where they're seated and located and so I was identifying someone that I was supposed to call on first. Sam Donaldson? No, no. I thought it was him. I think that's probably Helen... Helen Donaldson. This is... Do you know what happened here? We see the First Lady laughing with Gorbacher. And I don't know what that's about. I wish I could give you... Is there any? Nobody's a very genial fellow. He really is. And enjoys humor and a joke and so forth. That's very good. What is this celebration here? You're toasting. Well... Here you did a little jig. Well, kind of a little... We have a kind of a little tradition on Air Force One that if one of the members of our crew has a birthday, we surprise them with a cake and the toast and all. Who's cake was this? Jim McKinney. Jim McKinney. Yeah. Jim was his. And so there he was. He'd already made the first cuts in the cake and... We had something there too, Mr. President. But also, that sort of added touches when a toast was given to the President of the United States and Mrs. Reagan for a successful summit. Oh, so you also had a toast for a successful summit? Yes. This was prior to arriving? Oh, yes. This was out over the Atlantic sometimes. And Mrs. Reagan gave you a toast for a successful summit? Chief of Staff, President and First Lady for Success. Oh, that's terrific. We're doing the Air Force One story. Peter's been in here. It's going to be a nice story in the fall. I hear that this is a shot where you had lipstick on your cheek. I had just finished kissing her. Hello. And sometimes we were separated and such as like when she went to Leningrad for a day. And she's getting rid of the lipstick that I got from her. And where was this? That was just prior to the press conference. This is a terrific photo of all four of your arm and arm. Whose idea was to put your arm... Did it just naturally happen where you all got your arms around? It just really naturally happened. We'd been inside and meeting before and we all knew that the photographers were all waiting down below and the press and so we were going to be four abreast and so we linked down and started... You look very serious here at the Writers Union with the American Soviet flags on your lapel. What's going through your mind? Well, this is an interpreter behind me and so this is someone who's speaking up here and I'm just... The podium from which they spoke was very close to where I was seated Is that a moving afternoon? At a table. Yes, it was. And I'm just hearing their stories. Now you're looking up at a chandelier. What is this, a ceiling? I think that this was in the Kremlin there and the magnificence of those buildings and to look up because even... Well, I remember a couple of times saying with all our cleverness at skyscrapers and things of that kind when you looked at these buildings and looked at the art and the structure and everything you found yourself saying could we find anyone today that could do this? And so I think it was just... There was magnificent artwork up there in paintings and all. This is outside the dacha. What was the feeling as you left? Well, we'd had a very nice time, a very pleasant time and we... Any story he told you while you're there that comes to mind that sticks in your mind at the dacha? No, because we weren't just the four of us, you know. It was a group, a number of people, and ours, these foreign ministers' wife and George Schultz and... I think when you think back to the dacha that come up... I can't remember anything specifically. You didn't want to take any silverware of memento? No. All right. What is this here? You're looking at a piece of paper right here. Oh, yes. Now where was this? It's in Spasso House. Yeah, that's there. I assume you had some quiet moments in Spasso House. Yeah, and also I can tell you just with the shape of that paper what that was, our people kept us informed with the... Intelligence? No, the news clips that came. And just as we... Every morning I get a news summary of what the previous... Or what the morning papers and what the previous night's TV and so forth had said. So is this the morning? As you're getting up? No, this could have been... It could have been or it could have been later in the day because they would come at different times there. And so I try to catch up with the news. What's your reaction? There was a quote in the paper the other day that you've praised Gorbachev more in four days than you did George Bush in all those years. Do you have any reaction to that quote? Yes, I do and so he had one too, that it was very unfair. This whole thing that I was cool in my introduction or... You see, for a long time I had to remain neutral because I'm a titular head of the party and as long as there was a contest, primary contest and it wasn't until George was finally out there alone that I could then declare. And so I did it at that big president's dinner here in town. Well, I wrote myself what I was going to say at the end of my speech about it and that was going to be the first time that I now came out and publicly proclaimed and I showed it to him and he was very happy with it. In fact, kept the original piece of paper that I'd written it on and then for them to say afterward, I was very embarrassed and I think he was too when somebody started saying that I was very cool and indifferent to feel that way wrong, nor did I. Will there be a fifth summit or will you have to wait until you're spelled out here for Gorbachev to visit you? I don't know. I won't allow us to set a deadline on the start treaty that we're still negotiating on because that way you can come up with bad treaties. You can say, well, we've got to have something by this date. No, I would like to hope that in these months ahead we could finalize the start treaty and then I would think that it would be wonderful to have a summit and a joint signing. What would you show him in America if he comes this time? I'd like to show him our ranch but I'd also like to show him some of them. He hasn't seen America. I'd like to show him... I don't think he might be interested in that but I'd also like to show him some things that I'm quite sure from the propaganda he's heard all his life that he can't believe of. In the helicopter I look down and you're going over a housing tract and see those lovely little homes and lawns and so forth and be able to say to him those are where our working people live and you'll notice there's a car in the driveway and because you know, as I say, I understand that less than one family out of seven in the Soviet Union has an automobile but to see that these people or an industrial section with the large parking areas and the hundreds of automobiles and say the workers in those factories drive those cars to work. Maybe it'll be some friendly persuasion. But the thing is also with that comes a kind of frustration that would he think that it was a Potemkin village erected just to show him that. That's right, the propaganda he may think of. I wanted to give you this. This is a gift from life from the Great American Magazine. A history of life. Well, thank you very much. I didn't know if I would be here today. My wife had twins this weekend. Well, congratulations. Thank you. Boys, girls are one of each. Sam and Molly. Oh, that's wonderful. Well, the kids. Congratulations and please give her my best regards. Thank you very much for your time and for responding to the written questions as well. I appreciate it.