 Welcome back it's still the breakfast and plus TV Africa and we have our first conversation for that they will be focusing on security. Now pointing to the success recorded in the fight against insurgency in the North East the presidency says the escalation of terrorist activities in the North West would also be brought under control soon. Now the presidency said there was ongoing re-equipment and reorganization of the security and intelligence forces. Now the North has been ruling on the serious terrorism and bandit attacks which have taken a turn for the worse. There have been daily attacks including kidnapping for ransom, insurgency, killings and incessant former herder clashes among others. Now just yesterday the Catholic Bishop of Sokoto D'Auzes Machu Kuka slumped the federal government for allegedly failing to hold the Western security situation. Joining us this morning to look at the security concerns is professor of hematology Osman Yusuf. Good morning to you professor Yusuf thanks for joining us on the breakfast. Thank you for having me. Alright let's talk about this growing concern and this increasing security challenges that the nation is having. The Bishop of Sokoto was in the news yesterday and he's saying that Nigerians no longer recognize where they live anymore. How do you reason all of that? Right. I don't comment on what the clergy say. I'll only comment on what I know. Okay what do you know then, what do I know about insecurity? Yes you say you only comment on what you know so what is it that you know why are we in this particular quagmire? Right I mean I know about mandatory that is what I've invested my time on over the last two years of my life. I and Dr. Sheikh Ahmed Bumi we have been to the forest in eight states in the north. Five in the north west and three in the north central. Meeting with these war commanders. Meeting with local community leaders. Meeting with traditional rulers. Meeting with full annual leaders. Meeting with clerics and meeting with vigilante. We are meeting with state governors in these states so this much I know and I'm learning from but I don't comment on what other clerics say. Their opinions. Alright fine indeed you can only comment on the things that you know and the things that you have a perfect knowledge about but you wrote something let's just try and get some of the things out of all that you wrote. You wrote a particular piece on the 7th of April and you captioned it the unholy alliance between Bandit and E-Swap. You said these are national security nightmare. Just the other day we had reports that E-Swap has carried out so many attacks in Nigeria. So far Nigeria is actually the highest one of the countries with the highest you know IS attacks in the world and you're saying there is an alliance between Bandit and E-Swap. Can you throw more light on that? Right what I was saying is that the Bandits we saw. The rag tag Bandits we saw when we visited this forest. From day one we knew they are not the ones responsible for the train attacking along Kaduna Abuja. And all along the past two years we may use to urgently with a sense of urgency tell me that to mine we need to get to these Bandits before this Boko Harama E-Swap get to now with their twisted religious ideology because these Bandits do not have that. Most of the almost all the problems we hear the grievances we hear from these Bandits are grievances that are local and the solutions can be found locally. nowhere in the forest we visited did they have any grievances against the federal government or the military. But here you are any alliance between E-Swap or Boko Harama and and these Bandits is going to be a lethal combination for this country that will be very very difficult for any security agency. And the reasons are clear. The reason is because over the last 13 years that Boko Harama has been wreaking havoc in this country long before they put up arms. They have been wanting access into the North West which is the largest population geo-poison in this country. And the reason they haven't gotten access all this time is not full act of trying. Now there is an accidental but it was because of proactive behind the same tireless efforts of our traditional rulers and clerics in this region preaching to the Muslim faithfuls in this region that they should not accept this twisted religious ideologies that Boko Harama bring. And that's why you don't see it. You remember they nearly killed the late Emiah Adovar al-Khanu because of all these efforts. Well now they are trying to get this access and the train attack along this Karuna Abuja there was clear clear indication that they are beginning to work together and the pointers are there from the outside. Number one, these alright-tag Bandits do not have the capability for using bombs. This is Boko Harama and Iswab because currently as we speak Nigerians do not know but the capital of Gorno-State Medjugorje has been without electricity for 14-15 months. Why? Because Boko Harama Iswab they blew up the transmission lights into the Tecato twice. So they had precedents who were doing for hitting infrastructure. Number one. Number two, when the captives were taken out of the train they were conveyed in buses. Bandits will not use buses they know the terrain that's where they live. That's where they live. And when this these terrorists enter the train carriers they were shouting religious incantations. That is not bandit. That is not bandit. And when they came out on the video when they released the first person they were saying the federal government know what you want. Bandits have no business with the federal government. They don't say federal government know what you want. Their problems are local. To all these who are clear signs from the outset that this is the work of Boko Harama Iswab or any of the others, Ansaro or Daira Salam. And lo and behold intelligence reports that are coming up this clearly showing yes there is a connection between one of these four and and and bandits. Professor if I have to if I have to burt in if I have to just get a bit of clarity from all that you have said using the Kado Natrin attack as a case in point what are you seeing right now is it that and these attacks that were actually perpetrated by Iswab and not necessarily the bandits? No Iswab with some collaboration with the bandits that know the terrain because Iswab and all its other cousins Boko Haram Ansaro or Daira Salam cannot have access to that place without without the acceptance of of these bandits. Remember these bandits do not have a unified control. They are all over the place so it may be just one of the lead bandit in that area that aligned with this with these kindred spirit terrorists to perpetrate this up and this is worrying you should worry this nation more than before when deeper trouble and we were they have literally quarantine Kadoona the city of Kadoona which serves this highway and this railroad serves nine northern states and the republic of Mijer into up job so they have located that remember a few weeks ago they attempted breaching Kadoona airport so their target is infrastructure now they are they have targeted successfully transport infrastructure the railroad the highway and then the airline so we are in deep deep trouble and I hope the federal government and security agencies wake up and realize the problem we are in we need to find a way to flush and and and and and and frustrate this marriage between Iswab and whoever the head of this bandit is that is the goal but the primary goal of the federal government and security agencies now is to get our people out safely and for the federal government for goodness sake to speak for the families of these victims no arm of federal government has spoken with the families of these victims which is which is unfortunate and unacceptable there was a video clip going around of of of of one of the relatives of of these victims lamenting that no arm of the federal government has spoken with the with the victims this is not acceptable these people were abducted in a vehicle that's the federal government vehicle said to be protected by the federal government and this accident happened so the federal government needs to speak with the nation needs to speak with the relatives and get our people out safely Professor Ussman Yusuf it sounds like you understand the modus operandi of the bandits and you understand how the operates and their concerns and because looking at some of this article the chief put out he talks about the operation of Boko Haram Iswab and how they have actually gone about the activities targeting government infrastructure and facilities among others but that's not necessarily the issue of the bandits but constantly we have had reports of this bandits and we have a lot to grapple with which is a major security concern the bandits cannot be left out of the situation we have cases where you have bandits going to video ages you know killing people randomly and otherwise I mean just acting out of the law we understand that within the space that we will break the law protects and provides for every concern and every grievance that you know a person or a group of peasants might probably have so what is this about the bandit what's really go who are these bandits and what exactly they're agitating for and why are they taking the laws into their hands by killing people this is question you should have this question you should ask one of these bandits when you get him on the show I mean we have and I've said it several the full on is in the forest we lived in this country and I'm full on you we have folks in the forest they have generation or generational grievance that these bandits are now taking as a shield for their criminalities when we go into the forest shukumil listens to all of them when we met them in in in Nigeria it was a gathering of head of bandits from six days we would sit on the mark he would listen to everybody everyone of them and he would say that when he when he is time he's time for him to speak he will speak to them in the sternest of voices we've had your grievance we are full on is your full on we have had your grievances but this is no reason for you to be doing what you do it we are here we've risked all life we will not leave the forest from times of 10 p.m we will not get to our accommodation to 1 a.m. to a.m. putting our lives at risk no government centers no government gave us protection we are here because we we we we realize it is our duty and responsibility we cannot leave this out of government but this criminal and attesting over the legitimate grievances legitimate delirational grievances are full on inheritance and they are using it as shield for their for their criminality so let's get to the let's get to that point where you have talked about the legitimate grievances and the fact that um Shreya Gumi has actually listened to you have been part of it and I mean he means you've had an interface with these bandits and so what exactly are they're asking for what are the agreeances what are their let me let me let me give you an example the one example give you an example that will that you relate to during Ansar's those kids that went but that he gave us and put in the court play he didn't start just by one one one incident there have been grievances that the elders and leaders went on the the Ogoni pollution of the Iran nobody listened to them until things went crazy so also this flag is legitimate nobody is holding forth for these bandits legitimate for like the corridors have had grievances where we are living this part of the world know that so what are the grievances of this by listening I'm getting to that I'm getting to that and this are no reason for what for what these bandits are doing these are simple this this this set of people in the foreign I've never seen anything government since the creation of this country no light no electricity no schools no roads no nothing and there have been local local injustices between the full-lining heard us and the local judiciary the local traditional rulers these are local issues that you and I would look and say they are stupid but believe you or me if your house girl or your security mind is not happy with him with you don't wave them away listen to them this is a country that we do not listen to grievances of people until they pick up arms they'll go many days they started listening to them when they picked up arms right so so you you were saying that these bandits are causing havoc taking lives killing people because they don't have they haven't felt the presence of government in terms of provision of basic amenities that some parts of the country I mean almost all parts of the country are faced with I so that's what I want to find out that's what you're saying on dear the hand no listen to me legitimate full-lining heard us may go over 90 999 percent of people of people in the forest that have been peacefully all across this country have had legitimate generational grievances that these bandits are now using for their criminality there is no justification for what they are doing nobody will tell you that nobody will justify what they're doing based on their grievances and their grievances could be solved locally but every criminal will pick something to justify his criminality every criminal so everybody has grievances we should listen to everybody's grievances we should not listen to them before they pick up arms god help us is if the over 10 million out-of-school children all over this country pick up arms for the millions of youth that are unemployed pick up arms government must listen to the people that's why we elected them nobody is given any justification we went in to listen because there's absence of government empathy all over this country no professor go ahead yes so i understand the point that you have actually made but i'm i'm trying to really you know establish it and the point is that the several grievances and a lot of these persons are really displeased with you know governance and the issue of government and so in terms of not feeling the existence of government some persons have decided that some criminal element of desire to take advantage of this and their community committing crime and taking the laws into their hands is that what you're saying absolutely everybody has grievances but people pick up arms when in trouble i mean this is almost okay maybe i'll just let us like it sounds really not like it's like let's go i'm ready that's why i'm here i mean so it's really almost strange to hear that these are the concerns but let's also talk about the entity that we're living do you also know that we are in a situation where in an era where the because all of this concerns and fight is about the resources of the country who gets what when and how and so we have definitely the principle of derivation the 13 percent the allocation all has become a very big deal for us as a country and so states of the federation stakeholders persons among this are really concerned about who gets what when comes out of all of this i mean we're talking about the oil earnings that comes out of this now but do you also know that there are regions in this country who are responsible for the earnings of this country but if you go back you know to these communities there's really nothing to write them about in terms of development so it feels like they're the golden hen that lays the egg but they're not being taken care of i really do not know what justification it is and i would also like to ask does this bandit do they belong to a constituency are they in a local government right you see i don't know your name my name is messy my name is messy what's your name messy yes please messy i'm not here just to find anything or speaking for for for any bandit or or anybody let me tell you we're talking about regional the 10 percent wherever well who was the president that listened to the grievances of people of the niger delta it wasn't jonathan it wasn't a passenger it was an i bb it was an abacha it was president umar aradol from christian estate where i come from because he listened he saw the injustice true created the ministry of niger delta and n d dc well guess what n d dc has become n d dc billions of dollars are pumped into that place administered by people of the region what has it become it has become an ATM of the people this is not what kinsaro we were died for but the people that are 100 over distant to take care of their people the grievances of the people look what they have done with n dc please that place so let no one tell me that in percent 14 percent you can give a hundred percent to all of these governors nothing trickles down to people problems are low but is that enough reason to take the laws into the hands no there's no nobody is justifying anything you're asking me as if i'm holding forth for anybody but all i'm saying all the state governors are not doing the right thing 60 70 80 percent of the problems we are blaming the president we are blaming the president are the responsibility of the governor the governors are not building roads they are not building hospitals they are not building walls what is their idea of development building flyovers and and and and and tarmacs in the tarp they are not investing in people like leaders of our time invested in us that's why i'm able to be in this studio and educate the world there is no responsible governance all across 36 things nothing to do with 13 percent derivation you can give 100 percent derivation to the all producing states what happened what is happening and dc will continue to happen so it's still responsible governance all across all right professor two main reasons two main reasons for insecurity all across this country are two corruption and bad governance all right fine you have underlined everything you've captioned everything you've captioned everything into corruption and bad governance yes in as much as you know you know you are not trying to hold brief and you have said that all of these are just crept up as a result of the grievance is growing concerns that have been there over the years and that some of them just had to you know fall prey and you know pick up picked up arms and all of that but the question right now would be these issues are there the bandits are there and you have raised concerns with some sort of an alliance with each one that's the slummi state of west african province you know some governor has come out to say that they know where these bandits are they know where they stay and they've been some line of communication my my question right now would be if we know where the bandits are if we know that they are in this particular first why have we not been able to root them out and maybe try to reform them or maybe try to reintegrate them or something so that and this issue of you know incessant killings would actually be brought to some sort of an end right i mean so my purpose when i go on tv is to educate the world we know where Boko Haram has been we know the forest where i pop on their ears and we have known where niger delta militants have been we know where all these cults in the southwest are there's not knowing where they are that's not enough when we have done and i can speak for us and ourselves what we have realized all across this country is that elders have lost control of their youth that is why kanuri youth become Boko Haram that's why our fuller new youth and i'm bandit that is why ego youth that did not see the civil war and now yes and i i hope i want to burn this country down that's what we saw during n size insurrection in Lagos when they were burning buses and ransacking the palace of the above lagos there was not a single Yoruba elder that would call him to honor what we have done is our civic responsibility as elders in this part of the country and getting involved instead of sitting down and blaming government we put our lives at risk not that the best of any government we went in to eight states and we have 28 more states to go because they are full and is all across this country our goal was peace and preaching peaceful coexistence between host communities if all elders in all city of political zones get involved in their local conflict we will not be where we are so when a kanuri man criticizes i say yeah get involved in in in Boko Haram issues when an evil man criticizes i say get involved in iphone when a Yoruba man criticizes our our call to all elders in this country is to get involved in their local issues not remain in abuja and be talking about evil presidency yoruba presidency house of presidency rotation uh consensus zoning whereas our people are back home are burning our goal is to get involved and we are getting involved we're putting our lives at risk for our to deal with our local issues and i encourage everybody to do the same rather than looking at the other side and to realize each of the six geopolitical zones some fire so this country is working professor usman security that we've never seen in our lifetime professor usman you serve you you have been part of the advocacy plan for peace like you have rightly mentioned you visited this bandit you have visited we because we can't take out of the picture the fact that these bandits are taking the laws into their hands you're killing people they're attacking government facilities you have also tried to mention that it is not their modus operandi but at most point there are several verification that has stated that they're responsible you know for some of these attacks that we have experienced over time and so we we'd all of this really how effective has this peace process been because on the daily i mean just recently we had the kadoon the platoon state attack that has been on top of the conversation for days now and as we speak so i i think that we we have actually lost connection with professor usman usman you soon as we were able to connect with him we're definitely bringing back but it's been a very sensitive conversation right now very sensitive so we leave as a country Niger for me i think that the issue of having some unity of purpose and speaking as a country we're far far far fetched from all of that there's a lot of disparity that goes on i i don't really think if you look at the policy direction if you look at development across the entire country we have not spoken in a voice because we constantly see ourselves as units and components and individuals and so you would be more concerned about the southwest being developed and not even concerned about the fact that if you have development in the south south the southeast and you know the north and the northwest and what have you then it means development for the entire country and for Lagos let's take an instance you have the major consent for Lagos is overpopulation the fact that Lagos is overpopulated this congestion what is that it shows the urban rural drifts across the 36 states of the Federation minus the i mean i was going to say the FCT but of course minus Lagos state because everyone wants to come here and that's why why is that there's lots of things are working here and that's it so why don't we have a system where you have devaluation you have this is negotiation whether they have to be constitutional or they have to be some form of gentleman agreement but looking at the arguments that he is put out he said that he's not been holding brief for disbanded to some extent i don't know how true that has been because it feels like you're saying this bandit are not attacking government facilities that's not your modes of operandi it is totally that of the east and that of Boko Haram but however what are their consents they're saying that they're not satisfied they haven't felt government development they haven't felt government presence over time they don't have access to infrastructure basic amenities now let's look at the entire country do we all have access to basic infrastructure and facility do we feel government there's how many local government do we have against 774 everyone are we feeling the presence of government across should we all take up arms and kill ourselves who are we killing so the fact that i kill you does that solve the problem there's no justification to want to take anybody's life and in as much as he has come out to say that we have ungoverned territories like you have rightly put it you know succinctly you know 774 local government we have local government that have not really been reached that have not even had electrification for a very long time but um you know the people there they're still hopeful that one day you know these you know amenities would come to them they have not taken up arms he also said some things which which i would actually want to talk more about that one of the things that drive the young people to all sort of a youthful exuberant you know crime and other vices corruption bad governance we know that we are blessed with a whole lot of resources but over time over the years these resources you know have actually just filtered around that just a privileged few you know our commonwealth you know have been hijacked by corrupt leaders and over time they come out to campaign and make promises to Nigerians that if you vote us in would change you know the state of school will change your plight but when they get there then before you know mercy they have looted all of our commonwealths. So um we're hoping that we have him join the conversation it's quite sad and it's really unfortunate where we are as a people and as a country with all of that's going on because you have different paths agitations and the killings so you want to ask that the cause if he's saying that the bandits are not about this particular lifestyle are these attacks directed towards these individuals that are directed towards the governors and the government and those calling the shots and implementing and are at the helm of our affairs of policy formulation the policy implementation the entire policy cycle they're really these attacks because you're killing people randomly you have when people go into communities and just keep people for no reason just randomly kill people take lives all the sorts of crime and criminality is going on we as a government and we as a people we are in the know we know where these people are and then we know i asked them because we haven't moved into we haven't swindled action in the news and he said that they know this bandit and know where they are we understand that we have a professor osman usub back on the line uh province will stay with us still but let's move away quickly from this because we i mean for the want of time in no time we're going to be moving away there's been an advocation or advocacy if you want to put you have the reps calling that Nigerians should begin to bear arms for the fact that people need to begin to defend themselves because of the facts that insecurity is becoming you know the issue of the front burner and do you think that these should actually be the way does this solve the problem of insecurity should Nigerians begin to take arms and defend themselves no that would be crazy that would be a recipe for anarchy so these politicians they remain in abuja and keep yelling and screaming and lamenting in their chambers how many of these politicians go back home to hear their people they should be the ones going into the forest to listen to people listen to me the forest and the forest to see bandits the forest to see i go back yes and but they all in abuja so there's failure of governance all through from the executive to the legislation that's why we got him i and she talked to amit gumi we are doctors shagumi is a clearing we drop all we are doing to join this because it is our duty our responsibility to join in issues relating to our people if a government is doing it right we will have no business doing that so members of house of reps or senators screaming ourselves they need to do the right thing they have been the ones appropriated money to security agencies they have been the ones to checkmate this government have they done their job how often do they go back home and listen to their people that's why they are elected so corruption and bad governance is what is bringing this this issue and i've told all these politicians all they're interested now is they are scrambling for office for 2023 or consensual zoning when our real issue the land is drenched with blood so professor what would you suggest what would you suggest what would you suggest really what would you suggest really you have said that the members of the house of representatives and the senators that they don't really even understand what is even going on in their constituent they should be the ones headed towards the forest to root out or to even talk to this bandit but what do you really suggest right now every day we wake up to news of them killings news of them kidnapping Nigerians mostly don't even sleep with both eyes closed what do you suggest if we don't we're not allowed to bear firearms how do we begin to protect ourselves when you said the government has seemingly failed us as a people how do you secure us as how do you make sure that we can leave because it's only the leaving that can actually hope for tomorrow now and just to add to that you know you've also talked about that is a recipe for disaster the fact that if people have to bear arms don't you think it's a good recipe because constantly you can't make an excuse how do you explain the fact that people are being killed on a daily basis and you have mentioned that the government has failed maybe we get to a point where these people can defend themselves against whether they are e-swap whether they are Boko Haram or whether they are bandits now these persons who are the group of persons or individuals who are channeling their grievances and whatever it is are they channeling it to the right direction why are they taking innocent lives persons that have no consent with all of this does it even make sense so maybe we should get to a point where we all bear arms so we can defend ourselves and it gets very bloody good well mercy i've lived in the united states longer than i've lived here the second amendment of their constitution is the right to bear arms they're still struggling with this the problem you have people going into school school children going into school and mowing down their classmates every day there's mass shooting in the united states there is a place where there's control here things are out of control it means there is recently i was reading the report of the auditor general of the february 2019 over 17 over 17 000 close to 18 000 rifles and ammunition are missing from police armory they're certainly not somewhere hiding they're sold to criminals so we need to be careful governance governance good governance good governance is what we need a reduction in corruption in the united states i've lived there longer than i've lived here people carry arms i used to have my guns people go post them and kill everybody do you want to carry on be my guest and a key room in this country what we need is a government and the people that care government that will govern with the milk of humanity i don't see that all of president's land i had you guys when i was off i was i had you guys listening about legos legos is not held right over the poverty in legos is more than the poverty anywhere else in spite of the money going there in spite of the money the sea of poverty all over in spite of all the billions out of school children selling bread people living on riverine areas it's all governance and corruption all across this country there is not a place you pick and make us an example it's just a matter of degree the governors have gone bizarre building flyovers and termites is what they consider as as development instead of investing on people so it's all over this country and we will get to a situation where all hell will break loose if we do not take care of governance and and and reduce corruption reduce corruption for the amount of money that is coming into labor should be better than that for the amount of money the river state is getting should be better than that okay my personal governor a governor has the key he has the key to the treasury does whatever he wish he likes so so um professor us or usman yusuf you you have the fact that the reps are vocating personalize i mean the personnel should be armed or citizens should actually arm themselves and that's it and you are saying that it would be a horrible experience but i think that it's better for us to get to that horrible experience where everyone is defending themselves and whatever happens but um less you know tilt a little bit let's just go back a bit to some of the issues that we have raised you talked about um governance and corruption the fact that you have poor governance and corruption as a major issue but if you look at the activities of boku haram you say that they are fighting for the same purpose uh boku haram e-swap and bandits they're fighting for the same course of um corruption and bad governance is that really your agenda no no no what i'm saying is that each of every every conflict in this country they are different the genesis are different the solutions are different the habitat they they live in different boku haram is different from banditry boku haram banditry is different from the grievances of ipop e-sign or cultists or armed robbers or or or the pirates you see in the south-south unless you understand and get involved you cannot bring one template and expect it to work i don't know anything about ipop e-s and and i cannot editorialize about that or what i boku was doing living in the southwest or cultists people locally must understand the the genesis of the problems locally and come in not remain in studio or writing in newspapers or or on social media or in abuja about other people's issues when they are issues all across this country that i recommend everybody must get involved locally we're getting involved in acts we're risking our lives we'll continue to do that because it is our duty our responsibility as citizens this country has given my generation more than we've given by and this is the way we've given back all right one piece all right everybody get involved all right i must say a very big thank you to you professor usman use of a professor of hematology for joining us to look at all of the national security consent we have the growing concern between and bandit eswab and boku haram and some of the insight that you have shared on the show this morning we do appreciate your time thank you so much thank you thank you for having me yeah all right uh so we'll leave it at that you know firearms it is actually a debate should Nigerians bear firearms or my opinion if i have to say is that over time there the issue of amgun control still be a big one we know how it has happened in america in the uk in some of the western countries how children obituary pick up arms and you know go on a shooting spree you know a lot of people have died innocently from street bullet from children killing children i don't think we want to get to that particular point in our nation's history well that's the size of the show for today i must accept you have something to add well if you miss out on any part of it it's all right to follow us on facebook twitter and instagram and subscribe to our youtube channel so plus cv africa and plus cv africa lifestyle many thanks for watching i am missy boko and i'm justin and the news comes up on top of the art at nine a.m see you again