 Hi, welcome to the All Things LGBTQ Interview Show, where we interview LGBTQ guests who are making important contributions to our communities. All Things LGBTQ is taped at Orca Media in Montpelier, Vermont, which we recognize as being unceded indigenous land. Thanks for joining us and enjoy the show. Hi, everybody. I'm with Lesbian Avengers here to talk about that movement, an exciting time in lesbian history that many people think is still continuing in various other incarnations. So please join me in welcoming Maxine Wolfe, who's making a return visit, Marlene Colburn, and Chanel Elaine, who are all activists and occupy various other rules too. Let me start by reading a little description of the Avengers. The Lesbian Avengers is a direct action group using grassroots activism to fight for lesbian survival and visibility. The Lesbian Avengers was founded in June 1992. Is that correct? Yeah. By six experienced political activists, one of whom is with us. They had a vision for a grassroots lesbian activism that would go beyond visibility to a larger goal of movement building. Let me start by asking my guests if that's an accurate description or if there's anything you would add. Okay, so far. I mean, we should say that the Lesbian Avengers is a direct action group dedicated to lesbian visibility and survival. Yeah, I think the quote came to my mind. It's sort of like it just in my head. I don't think it'll ever go away. The Lesbian Avengers is a direct action group focused on issues vital to lesbian visibility and visibility. That was it. I do think that from the beginning of it, the one thing that the founders were very clear on was that we didn't want to do frivolous actions. They could be fun, but they couldn't be about frivolous issues. They weren't about integrating gay male bars or straight bars. We wanted to take on large political significant issues and bring a lesbian perspective to it. I think that's more important than a lot of the other things in the quote. Any group has different ideas and you have to work them through and figure out which one you're going to do, but you have to have a guiding principle. That was our principle, was not to do just anything, but to pick out significant issues in the lives of lesbians and to see lesbians as being part of the larger world. When I say in the lives of lesbians, I mean all kinds of lesbians doing all kinds of having different lives and for us to be picking out issues that would affect them. Let me start by reading some bios of you before we go to the first action. Maxine Wolf, you've seen before and she has, as viewers of the show know, she is a retired emeritus distinguished psychology professor who was very involved, has been an ongoing activist for years and was very involved in ACT UP and as we said is a founder of lesbian adventures and you're doing other actions as well now, is that right? Makes it you're retired. I am retired from academic life. I hope I'm never retired from political life. Definitely the busiest retired person I know. I aspire, but I don't know if I'm going to reach that. It's a wonderful condition. Let's go to Marlene who is a rabble rouser lesbian activist member of the original lesbian adventures founding co-mother of the Dyke March, mother of three young men, partner of 25 years. Welcome Marlene. Thank you. Hi, good to be here. Good to have you. Chanel Elaine is a producer and filmmaker who is currently in Brooklyn, but travels all around the world and has a very tight schedule. Is that right? That's because she's always doing something as well. From her main profession, filmmaking is your main profession? Yeah, I consider myself not only a producer, but a social impact producer. So I very much engage my activism with my filmmaking in short form content, working with nonprofits and philanthropic organizations. Welcome. Let's go to the the founding of the group. It was founded in 1992 and makes seem one of the key dinner parties where the project was launched. Can you tell us how you happened to go and what was accomplished there? Well, I was getting really frustrated that there was no focus on lesbian activism at the time. And so was Anna Cimo and we both had friend Sarah Shillman was a friend of both of ours. And we each separately mentioned to her that we were frustrated there was nothing happening. And she said, why don't you two have lunch? So we did in May of 1992. Anna and I had lunch together and we talked about we were ready to start an organization. And so we decided we would ask a lot of our friends that we had been involved in politics with over the years. And six of us ended up showing up at Anna's house for dinner that night to discuss the issue. And the six of us were myself, Anna, and Desky, Marie, Honan, and Anne Maguire, and is that six? Yeah. And Sarah. Oh, and Sarah, right. And it just it didn't take very long. We immediately said, yes, we wanted to do something. And then we came up with the name. And I can never remember how we came up with the name. I just know it was one of those brainstorming moments, which is always great in a group, you know, where you start throwing out things and whatever. And then somebody came up and said, well, what about the lesbian Avengers? And everyone said, so, you know, that's it. And then Anastemo's son came up with the bomb, the anarchist bomb. And we and that night, we talked about what kind of actions we would do. And our guiding principle, which was we would not do minor kind of frivolous actions that we wanted to do actions that were about real world big issues. We didn't want to like integrate street bars or, you know, gay male bars, we wanted to do really political stuff. We were all very political people. And so, for instance, just to throw it in there is that Anne McGuire and Marie Honen had been two of the founders of the Irish lesbian and gay organization that protested against exclusion in the New York, St. Patrick's Day parade for years. And they had been activists in Ireland before they immigrated. So anyway, so it was, I think it was Anna that came up with doing something on the first day of school about the rainbow curriculum, which was going to be a new curriculum in the public schools in which, for the first time, there would be mention of ethnicity and it would try to cover different cultural groups and racial groups and ethnic groups and also included in that was two lines about lesbians and gay men. And and then they were starting to be great pushback from conservative forces in the city about having the curriculum at all. So we thought that would be a great thing. Of course, we also came up, I just do want to say that we we have always had a sense of humor and we came up with several other possibilities, including parachuting into Whitney Houston's wedding to protest her getting married. We did do our first action about the rainbow. Yes, and we're going to show the clip of that. One thing I would add in this article I read, the writer said that it was part of it, the, you know, playful activity was part of a way to refute the stereotype of the humorless lesbian to we have fun. I love your point. It's not trivial. It's also so Marlene, how did you happen to get involved in the Avengers? Well, I went to Pride that Sunday and apparently the core group of the lesbian Avengers had printed up 6000, 7000 palm cards and they were handing them out. I don't know who gave it. Someone gave me a palm card. It said come to a meeting at the center, you know, want to be involved in lesbian activism. And I had just been bitching to a friend that it was nothing political going on that was just literally that was just for lesbians and they were like, you know, get off, get off the stick and do something. And someone handed me the palm card and I was like, perfect. I don't have to think of it. Someone's thought of it already. And I went to the first meeting and I think there were 60 or 70 women and crammed into into a room at the center. And we were often running and it was, it was a great feeling. I didn't know a single person in that room, not one person. So and over the years, I got to know a lot of them and some of them are still good friends. Fine. So, you know, in that, in that manner, it was, it was great and it also taught me different ways of doing activism. The Avengers were very much about let's be serious, but let's have fun at the same time. And sometimes in the group, people would say things that I was like, that sounds really dangerous. And it turned out not to be because of the way that, that it was stored out and presented and carried to fruition. Well, I read and maybe Maxine can confirm this, that when you first came up with the idea of the cards, you thought maybe you'd get six or seven people and actually you got 70, 60 or 70. Is that true Maxine? Yeah. And we designed how to give out the cards with that in mind. Like we, we did not hand them out to people who were already in groups marching in the parade. We gave them out to people on the sidelines or people who were marching alone. And because we wanted risk takers because the, the card acted as if the lesbian Avengers already existed. And we had a phone number which was an extension in my house, okay, with a tape machine. And, and, and so the, the 60 people who came to that first meeting were incredible and almost all of them stayed in the Avengers for quite a while and they were risk takers. They were willing to go to Queens where no one goes to do actions or no one went then, okay, and do an action. So it worked. And, and all it said was, you know, we want revenge and we want it now. And, you know, sort of if you do, you know, that there were cold blooded liars in the White House. And, you know, we had to do something and come to this meeting. That's all it said and, and call if you want. And I, I always tell people that the first funny message on the tape machine was from Lydia, this woman Lydia who said, I hope that this, I hope that you are not the sergeant behind the local desk. Because this is my, this is my dream group I've been waiting for. Okay. Anyway, enough from me. Chanel, how did you have to get involved? Yeah, so I, I had recently left the West Coast and was out of the Army, and had moved to New York, having not been an activist or political in any way, but wanting to be. And so I believe that I moved to New York two days before Gay Pride in 1993. So it would have been the first year of the Dyke March, but I didn't know about the Dyke March then, but I believe we're meetings on Mondays or Tuesdays. I can't remember. We moved around. Yeah. So I think that was meetings for Tuesdays then. Yeah. I ended up shortly after the Pride month, March, going to the Gay and Lesbian Community Center at the time. And literally when I went there, there was a Lesbian Avenger meeting listed. And so I went and I walked in to an amazing room of Dyke's in all shapes, sizes, color, and form. And I sat down and listened to some really smart women have a conversation very organized and very pro and con and such a neophyte. When someone said something pro in my head, I was like, oh, yeah, that's right. I believe that. And then when someone said con, I was like, no, no, that's right. I believe that. And it just, you know, it was, it was, I was getting a little emotional as we were starting to talk because the Avengers and that day was is everything that made up my experience in my early years in New York. And the women that I met there were my only friends and they became my friends and my comrades and people that I depended on and continue to depend on, you know, 30 years later. So Chanel doesn't tell you that that in her first meeting, we were talking about doing needing somebody to go up to Maine to help some people who are doing, you know, organizing up there with the people up there about an anti gay amendment and somebody yelled out somebody who was running the meeting said, is there anyone here who can join them because we want more than a couple of people and Chanel rest her hand and I will never forget this in my whole life. Somebody said, are you sure you want to go when she said, well, I'm a lesbian Avenger of leisure. And I had the time to go. And I thought, all right. And that was it. That was it. That's wonderful. Remember that. Remember that. You were talking about safety, Marlene. Any conversation where people were talking about safety and I was like, okay, well, I can go. Well, let's go to the first action if we could. The lesbians, uh, Maxine preview, the lesbian Avengers kicked off with a daring action supporting a multicultural curriculum and encouraging elementary school children to ask about lesbian lives. And before we show the clip, let me thank Sue Friedrich for giving us permission to show it. So take a look. The city property. That's the ambulance to schoolchildren on the first day of school today. This especially as a teacher, I'm afraid that we're that we're harassing the kids a little bit, but I came because what I've been reading in the papers and seeing about what school board 24 is doing is not just not doing in some kind of passive way, but taking on an active campaign of hate and intolerance. And I just can't stand to see that in another school. I'm demonstrating here because I think children should learn about love, not about hate. I often think that the people who are against lesbians and gay men in the school curriculum have a larger agenda, which is racist is to get rid of the multicultural curriculum. They're attacking us because we're easy to attack. It seems like that action encapsulates a lot of the goals. It's fun. It's outrageous. It's a little bit in your face and all the energy of that coming together seems like it really was a good place to begin. Was any of you, none of you were quite there for that one, right? Yeah, I was. We were. We looked for you in the clip, but missed you. I'm often not in the clips. I'm often too busy to be in the clips. All right. Well, while we're talking about video, let me encourage everyone to see on, which is available on YouTube, eating fire, being a lesbian, Avengers, eat fire too by Janet Bowes and Sue Frederick. It really is the food and it goes through a lot of the activities, including your erection of a statue of Alice P. Toklis next to Gertrude Stein in the park and the reading and a lot of the exciting events that you participated in. So are you being info about that first action? Pardon me? Did you want to have it? The first action is encapsulated in the longer film. Yeah, I'm just saying, did you want more information because I didn't see the clip? Oh, sure. You decided to have a multicultural to protest this curriculum. What was the outcome? We weren't protesting the curriculum. We were protesting the fact that they didn't want it. They didn't want it. Yeah. Right. They were, again, the district that in Queens that was led, I believe, at the time by Mary Cummings, the student that did not want the curriculum there. They were very virulently opposed to it. Right. And we picked out that district because we had a research committee that looked for places that would be good to focus on. And she was totally homophobic and had been also totally right wing about other kinds of issues. And so she basically made our decision for us because right before we were going to do, you know, as we were picking out a place to do action, she kept saying things that were horrifying. But I think the thing about it, you know, that people need to understand is that no one used to do actions in Middle Village Queens. And that we didn't negotiate with police or anything. We just went and we did logistics and we figured out how to do it. And on a given day, we just started marching down one of the main streets up to the school and sang and chanted and gave out leaflets. And the other thing that we gave out were balloons to the kids that said ask about lesbian lives, which we thought was a good pedagogic move. And got a lot of coverage. And we did more than just that one action about it. So we connected with the UFT, the United Federation of Teachers, and went to their meeting and asked them to make a statement against the attempt to eliminate that curriculum. We did several meetings, several actions with different educational groups, etc. So I want people to know that it wasn't like a one shot deal. Right. The Avengers also serenaded Mary Cummins outside her house one late night. Yeah, on Valentine's Day. Yes, I saw a clip of it. Well, it's in the film. It's great. You're out there, rain or shine, snow or sleet. Let me share a quotation from Sarah Shulman, who said of the Avengers, it grew very quickly. It was also a very radical and open organization. Anyone could be in the Avengers if they were willing to fight for lesbian visibility. So it was the opposite of Turfie. We voted 99% to include trans women, and men were part of the group of people who created Camp Trans. And Camp Trans, as we know, is, was written very eloquently about by Michelle T. in Against Memor. Let me ask, let's turn to legislation, shall we? And the Lesbian Avenger Civil Rights Organizing Project, lay crop, do you call it? They have mentioned in Idaho that is particularly noteworthy, and readers and audience members may recall that in Colorado in the early 90s, there was a draconian anti-LGBT proposition that passed. But in Idaho, Proposition One, it was called, and that was being presented. And the Avengers were there. Can you tell us about that? I can speak to that a little bit. You know, that was, that was the day that I, it was the project that I volunteered for. It didn't have the crop as the name quite yet when I volunteered to first go to Maine to work on the campaign because, as you mentioned, the Christian right was and attacking the rights of LGBTQ people within local ordinances, attacking their right for, or our right for housing and employment. And we went to be able to help local lesbians organize against very well-funded campaigns by the Christian right. This was very grassroots organizing. We basically went there to lend our hands and our time to the local lesbians there. And really incredible work happened because we were not willing to be closeted in the way in which the campaign that was actually supposed to be on our side, but wanted us to be, you know, wanted us, wanted the local LGBTQ community to be closeted and fight for this ordinance without actually saying that we were a lesbian, gay, bisexual, trans or queer. And we refused to do that. And we worked with other lesbians who also refused to do that. And, you know, what we found, which is I think key anywhere, is that once you are not in the closet and you are standing out and proud and loud, and that people actually get to see you and your humaness, then it's a lot harder to hate and to want to take away your civil rights. And as a result of working in Maine, there were a lot of young lesbians who were in the closet who came out. As a result of the work we did there, we did a very intense door to door campaign. And the area in which we were in, which was Lewiston, Maine and Moscow, Maine, although that the ordinance failed in Maine itself in the areas that we were in, had it just been those areas, it would have passed because the numbers were on our side. And as a result of that experience, we wanted to do it again. And we did some research to find out where we should go next. And Idaho was one of those places. And then we ended up in Idaho. Wasn't the Avenger, there was an Avenger who was from Idaho, wrote an article about it in the nation that Maxine forwarded to me. Yeah, Sarah Persley, which was one of the dykes that I went with and he was an incredible organizer and we went to her home state. And I was thinking, I remember the Colorado circumstance because the legislation passed, but nobody remembers the Idaho thing because the Avengers were instrumental in killing the bill. I mean, that's really an accomplishment, an untold, unheralded accomplishment. There are other factors, I guess, the Mormon church was involved. It's kind of ironic because there was a Lewiston Maine and there was a Lewiston Idaho. But yeah, in the same way that we organized in a out and loud door-to-door campaign that was relentless in not only us helping the local lesbians, but in the ways in which they engaged in their communities really made the biggest difference in that ordinance going forward. Well, I think also that you did the same thing. You went around organizing as out gay people in Idaho, in places that people never did that. And you got people to do community events where they came out publicly. And again, I think the most amazing thing in terms of an organizing principle besides being out was the fact that you didn't evade the fact that this was an anti-gay bill, whereas a lot of the more mainstream LGBT organizations that were trying to organize there just kept focusing on the word like discrimination and never mentioning lesbian and gay. And I think that the fact that the police avengers that you worked with and the lesbian avengers working together and using a very out strategy proved that that worked better because the two, if I remember correctly, the two areas that you won two areas that were very conservative and that nobody ever thought that you would win. And I just should mention too that people were up there for six months. Six months. Yeah. How did you happen to be able to do that? Did you fundraise or was there a treasury or did you contribute your own time and your own resources? Yes, to all of the above. There had been fundraising. And yeah, people volunteered their time. As was mentioned earlier, as me saying I was a lesbian of leisure was because I had just gotten out of the army and I had the ability to go and do this work. And I also just want to say quickly that this work at the time I was out, but I wasn't out to my grandmother. And in seeing how this work was influencing local lesbians and them being at a press conference and coming out, I also came out to my grandmother. Everyone on the ground was learning so much around and finding either finding voices as I was or finding the political will to be able to represent ourselves in ways that we imagined and didn't imagine. And the effect that we had as we came together as a community is one of the most powerful experiences that I've had. Well, we can't forget the dike march, can we? The first dike march was in 1993 in Washington? Yes. Was it eaten? Do any of you know how to eat fire? I don't do it. I don't do it. But apparently one of your colleagues who worked in the circus and instructed some of your peers to do it became your signature activity, one of your most symbolic activities. And again, it had a serious origin. Can you tell us about that? The Oregon firebombing? Yes, of Hattie and her companion, the man that she was assisting, Brian Mock and Hattie Mae Cohen's, I believe, who were burned to death. And at the time, the Avengers were putting together actions. And one of the ways we thought we could honor them was to take the fire within us and take it and make it our own and eat fire. And the first time we did that, I believe, was at an action near, in the middle of the village. And it was an overnight. It was the anti-violence march? Right. It was an anti-violence project march. And the Wengis participated in that. And at the end of the march, the lesbian, we had erected a monument to them, a memorial to them, and six to eight Avengers ate fire. I believe, I don't think that was the first time because it was also done at the march on Washington. But this particular thing was as a memorial to them. I think it was very powerful. A lot of people had, it comes from the circus, but in this instance, it was a powerful remembrance of the sacrifice that those two people had made just because they were lesbian and gay, disabled on top of that. And it was an assertion of lesbian power and individual power in the face of violence like that. And also, you're right, it did happen in the Washington march and Avengers ate fire in front of the White House. Is that right? You were there, Martin, weren't you? Yes, I was in Marshall. Were either of you there in the Washington 1993 march? Yeah. Major organizers of that march. And a lot of effort went into it. We had no idea how many women would show up. So we went down early to leaflet and talk to women. Everybody we talked to said, oh, yeah, we know about it. We're coming. So it was like, really, how do they know about it? But that was the kind of network that existed at the time with the lesbian connection newsletter. And we just did a lot of phone calling and a lot of, they weren't Zoom meetings, but a lot of phone call conferences with groups around the country. And people with lesbians were just fired up for that for that. And, you know, 10,000 women showed up and we marched from Deep Point Circle to the White House. But besides the main ones, you also staged an action at a diner that had evicted or that had thrown out one of your number who was kissing her girlfriend or holding hands. Yes, two members of the Avengers in Brooklyn. I think it was in Brooklyn Heights. It was a little diner. And they came to the meeting and said, this had happened. And we were like, we're not standing for that shit. And so we went and forced to the diner. And I believe there was a kiss in. And I think they amended their ways. But it may have only affected some people, but I'm sure the people and the owners of the diner did not forget that we had been there. So there was a whole lot of both famous and less famous actions. What was your favorite, would you say? Let me ask you with this question. It's a good one. Well, besides the stuff in Idaho, which I thought was pretty amazing. I like the one where we followed the mayor of Denver for an entire day, well, day and night. This was when the Colorado amendment was being fought. And they were like all these boycotts of Colorado and stuff. And we heard that the mayor of Denver was coming to New York for all of these to do meetings about the economic development of Denver. And so one of the people that was in the Avengers and Northrop had media contacts from her old life. And she got in touch with them. And we found out every single radio station where he was being interviewed. And at that time, you could call up, you know, they would have all of the he they would have these interview shows and you could call up and we kept calling. But we also followed him to every interview he was doing with TV people. And so we would be outside chanting wherever he went. And the last place he went was the Plaza Hotel for this big meeting about the economic development. And we just walked right into where he was meeting with these people and we were out in the hallway and they had to drag us literally pull us out of the of the of the hotel. But at the end of that day, he gave an interview and he said that he was not going to continue his economic development tour, because every time he was interviewed, the only thing people wanted to talk about was the anti gay proposition. So, you know, and we weren't that many people at each of the stops, we were like four or five people. So you don't even need a huge number of people as long as you are persistent is my attitude. We started out, I just want to say in the morning at the Regency Hotel, which is the sort of the power breakfast place in New York. And we just marched right into the dining room and passed him and, you know, you know, said boycott Colorado and he got the message. That's great. I think that was one of my favorites. I had a friend who was living in Colorado during that time. And I said, what happened? And she said, the ballot was so confusing that people thought they were voting for LGBT rights and ended up voting against it. So there are all kinds of insidious tactics that the Avengers are aware of and I'm sure interrupted every turn. Chanel, what was your favorite action? I'm going to say briefly, and I just need to apologize because I am going to need to go because of travel. But I agree that with what Maxine was saying in terms of, you know, just the experiences in Maine and in Idaho, they were definitely my favorite. But New York, I would say that when we splurged and bought tickets, dinner tickets to a UN Women's Caucus dinner that we were planned on taking over the microphone because in their agenda, there was no conversations around lesbians within this huge caucus of international women. And I will say and that, you know, we prayed that we would get to eat first because the dinner was amazing. And, you know, we were starving dykes and didn't get to have big dinners like this. And much to our chagrin, they started the programming before the dinner. So we had to rush up and take over the mic, which we did successfully to talk about not surprising lesbian visibility and survival on a international level. And we're not so promptly, but definitely did not get to have dinner. Well, Chanel, thank you so much for joining us. I know you have to leave, but we'll continue with your other two colleagues. But, you know, please come back again when we can talk a little longer. Thank you so much for having me and Marlene and Max. I love you. And love you, Pat. Bye-bye. It was great fun. So Marlene, what was your favorite action? You know what? Every action that I participated in or helped to put together was a favorite action of mine. I always went into an action thinking something bad could happen. And I always came out thinking we did something great. We never knew. We never, there was no action where we ever asked the police for a permit. There was no action where we interface with the police beforehand. You know, they would call and leave messages on the hotline. You know, can you give us a call? We hear you're doing this. Because we would, we, we'd paste it and leaflet it all over the place. So it wasn't like people didn't know what was gonna, what was gonna go on. And our actions were successful, whether they were large-scale or small-scale, whether it involved like three or four people or thousands of people. What I, what I most am proud of is that every year at the New York City Dyke March, I still have women come up to me and say, you know, I came out at the 15th Dyke March. And I remember coming up to you and saying, thank you. That was when I was like marching in the front or running up and down as, as a side marshal. Max and I now are via marshals and we have been like, at least the last 10 years. And, you know, women still come up to us and say, thank you. And that to me is a lasting legacy that would not exist without the Avengers haven't, haven't been in, in existence. So I look back on every action as, as a great action and that I enjoyed immensely. Let me quote you to yourself if I may. After my first month in the Avengers, I really thought that 10, in 10 years time, lesbians would rule the world. I remember having some of those thoughts. And here we are 30 years later, and we're still just ancient, rather than leaping forward. It's a great feeling to know that change can happen. It just takes longer than you think it will. That's very. It's amazing. It's like every day is really, really long. And you just hope you get to the end. And we, we're just going to keep, keep fighting. It's something that's very important and we're up for the battle. Now I have some questions about our current moment that I'd like to consult you about if I could. Can I just say one thing also about the Avengers, which is that right now, you know, Marlene and I sort of ran the March, I wouldn't say ran facilitated the March, the Dyke March, which by the way is, is happening all over the world now, facilitated it for 20 years. And then when we got to the 20th anniversary, we handed it over to a great bunch of younger women. And I think that that's one of the most significant things you can do as an organizer, which is to, to remind yourself that you're going to die someday and there have got to be people coming after you. And so the truth is that you, a lot of things, you never know what the impact of it is. But because, you know, 10 or 20 years down the line, could you? A lot. It was the sound was breaking up. Yeah. Right. And you need people to come after you. And there's the Dyke March Committee now every year. They're great young women who have taken it over. It's fantastic. So. So it continues. It continues. The saga continues. Yes. Well, my two contemporary questions are, now that everything, when we look back, I love the idea that you had a phone bank to contact people in the early days. You had a phone tree. Yeah. But we will be on the era of the phone tree. And the other thing that seems to be happening during the pandemic is that targets or, you know, bad operators are no longer housed in buildings. So, you know, you had the Cosmo action in women against AIDS. And in the 70s, there was the ladies home journal occupation. But now a lot, now a lot is social media. Yeah. And so, how is it possible to continue in this changed media landscape? How best can you do activism? Did you say? I would say that being out is still out on the street. Those places are not all online. For instance, right now, rising resist has been doing an incredible number of actions in front of Fox News. Okay. You know, they have buildings. The Senate, you know, the Congress is still in Washington and building. Now, there's stuff that you can do online and people do. They do Twitter campaigns and other things like that. Social media is definitely prevalent. But I am still a firm believer that direct action works and that you can find out where those people are and you should go there. A lot of people now get nervous. They think that, you know, that the government is going to come after them. And my philosophy has always been the Secret Service doesn't want to kill you. They just want to protect the president. And in act up, we went to, you know, we actually infiltrated a talk that George Bush was giving. You know, we've done many things like that. When after the bomb went off at the World Trade Center, people said you couldn't do any direct action in New York because the cops would get you and we block every bridge and tunnel. Okay. So a lot of it is what your head is about. It's not about where the the stuff is. You have to figure out all the ways that you can move many different tactics. To get the job done to, you know, we've had a strategy and then we use a lot of different tactics. You have to have a goal. That's the important thing. Then you figure out how to do it, how to get there. I would never, I would never use social media to plan an action, I believe in bodies in the streets. You know, bodies in the streets wins hands down every time. The media does not cover a Twitter action. They don't cover it. Well, who said what on Facebook unless it blows up in someone's face because the right thing didn't happen. But they do cover bodies in the streets. That's what they write about. That's what people see. And personally, I don't care if the media writes about it. What I care about is that lesbians know about it. They know that the last Saturday in June or the Saturday before the Pride, before the Pride parade that the lesbian Avengers and the Dyke March committee are going to host the New York City Dyke March and they come out. I don't even, I don't even think there's any advertising about it. People just know that that's what's going to happen and they come. Believe it or not, we're getting to the end of the interview. So I'd like to ask each of you for last words, a concluding message to our audience. Starting with whoever wants to go first. Yeah, I think that it's very important to be out. It's a hard thing. It's probably one of the hardest things you'll do, but we have the opportunity to come out every single day. Like I work in a major hospital. People walk in and out of my office all day. When they look to my left, they see photos of my family on the wall. There was no doubt that I'm a lesbian. I don't have to say that I'm a lesbian. They know that I'm a lesbian. But sometimes you do have to say to people you're a lesbian, but if you're, you know, if you're afraid to come out, you just have to take that step. You have to believe that people around you will have your back and that you have the fortitude to persevere against any sort of prejudice you may encounter. Because we all encounter prejudice. We encounter it because we're women. We encounter it because of the color of our skin or our ethnic heritage or whatever we happen to believe. But that's messed up. But on the other hand, it makes you realize, hey, I'm still here. I can still go forward, and that's what it's all about. I couldn't agree more. And I remember my friend in home, some of you know Carla Jay, came to New Orleans where I was living in the early 90s, and someone in the audience said, oh, do you think we can come out? And Carla said, yes, come out. I know there are extenuating circumstances for a lot of people, but I agree, Marlene, I can't think of anything more empowering personally than coming out. Even if you have to do it again and again in all different contexts. So that's a really good point. And also in our actions, you know, we're not, you know, I feel and I learned this, I was, the Avengers seem to believe this too, you've got to be and hope and lesbian and whatever you do, you know, you're not a concerned citizen, you're concerned lesbians, but we digress. Macy, what are your last words? I just, you know, want to basically say that it's really important that, first of all, that we understand that lesbians have been in the forefront of social and political movements, progressive social and political movements historically. This is nothing new, and it's nothing new that people try to make us invisible. So it's important that we make ourselves visible because no one is going to do that for us. And the same thing is true about taking care of business. You know, we have issues and they are different from other people's issues. They're not better. They're not more important. They're just different. And that we have to be the people who get out there and say what they are and do something about it because no one's going to do it for us. So I think that that's very important. And I know that there are many younger people are out and they, they don't understand the privilege they have in life to be out and how many people are still not out. And I always say to people, you know, you think you are still the periphery of the periphery and there are kids in Brooklyn that are committing suicide. So it's not even where you live. It needs people to be out there as role models to show that you can live a really good life that it's not a lifestyle, it's a life. And I think that's very important to remember and that your life is important. And it's going to be really important to the people who come after you to know that you existed. Yeah. Maxine Wolfe and Marlene Colburn. Thank you very much, Lesbian Avengers. Thank you for joining us. Thank you. Thank you and then a pleasure and an honor. Thank you for joining us. And until next time, remember, resist.