 Welcome to the non-profit show. We are so glad you're here for another episode, another week, and it's Monyei, I think if I'm certain with where I am, who I am, what city and state I'm currently in, but happy Monyei, it's another non-profit show. Today we have with us Mohan C. Vlachnathan who is going to correct me every time I mispronounce his name. Mohan's here to talk to us about people of color and the next generation leadership in our non-profit sector. So Mohan, we're so excited to have you here to talk to us on this very critical and important conversation and topic. So looking forward to diving deep, deep, deep into conversation, but before we do that, we want to remind our viewers and our listeners, if we have not met yet, Julia Patrick is here. She is CEO at the American Non-profit Academy. I'm Jera Ransom, non-profit nerd and CEO of the Raven Group. Again, honored to serve alongside day in and day out to have these high level conversations with amazing thought leaders like Mohan here today. And hey, we also want to say thank you and extend so much gratitude to our amazing presenting sponsors that allow us to continue this journey. So thank you so very much to Bloomerang, American Non-profit Academy, your part-time controller, non-profit thought leader, fundraising academy at National University, staffing boutique, non-profit nerd, as well as non-profit tech talk. If you haven't reached out to these companies, what are you waiting for? They're amazing, but they're here to help you do more good. And again, they really are. Their mission is your mission. So check them out and they're really good people. So if you haven't downloaded the app, the latest and greatest, we do have an app now for the non-profit show. You can go ahead and scan that QR code here. But don't worry, we're also on the streaming broadcast as well as podcasts. So there's so many ways you can consume these episodes, now over 800 episodes. So thank you to our sponsors and to our guests like Mohan that allow us these conversations. So again, really excited to have you here. Mohan, you serve as the CEO at our turn. And for those of you watching and listening, I want you to check out the website. It's it's our turn.org. So it's our turn.org. Welcome to you Mohan. Thank you. Pleasure to be here. Pleasure to be here. I'm excited to dig in. You know, it's really cool. We sometimes Mohan, I think about this topic and I wonder if we had ever gone here without the pandemic and Jared and I often say pandemics because it's not just the global health crisis, but civil unrest and discourse that has changed in political economic stress, not just in our own country, but around the world. And at the center of this turmoil, so often it's the nonprofits holding things together and trying to guide us forward. And so I'm fascinated that you are leading this in one way, this part of the sector in this discussion. So talk to us about your organization and kind of what you're doing and what you're seeing. Yeah, absolutely. Happy to be able to dig in. So at our turn, what we do is we train, we tell stories and we turn the tables. So we train young people to be the most effective change makers across the country so that we can be able to follow their lead to forge a more equitable education system. We tell stories because we believe that incomplete policymaking comes from incomplete storytelling. So it's essential that what young people are experiencing particularly from some of the most underserved communities in the country, that those experiences are elevated to be able to inspire change, to be able to build public commitment and we turn the tables on decision-making by helping young people to gain proximity and the opportunity to be able to co-design solutions with systems leaders all across the country. And we've seen time and time again, that is how you're able to be able to break through. And that notion of breakthrough, I think to your broader question is just so vital right now because it's not hard to find yourself mired in a conversation even with a random person you might run into in a coffee shop or a family member about just how tough things are in society and how things are so polarized and they're so tense and the politics are frustrating. And I think that's all true, that's all real but also at the same time, what we see irrespective of political party or geography is that folks are hungry for connectedness and belonging and for aspirational vision for the future. And so then you have to ask yourself, well, what does it take to be able to get there? Now you could start to look at, well, we need different politicians, we need a different economic system and so on. And I think a lot of that is very valid and true. What gives me a lot of fuel and motivation is in the work at our turn. What I see is that young people when you center their stories, when you center their change-making capability and their vision for themselves and the future, like that's where the inspiration is. Like it's literally right in front of us. And I think we need to follow that. We need to be able to nurture that and build it more because the way our society is operating right now in so many ways, it's not sustainable. It's not personal sustainable, it's not collectively sustainable. We see all the breaks and the cracks in the education system and more. So we have to start doing things differently and we need to like, we've got to walk the talk on it. And at our turn, I think this is one of the levers, it's one of the opportunities and paths, but it's one that we are fully bought into. This belief that young people can indeed lead transcendent movements. And we need to build all the support and the culture and the public will behind that idea. Yeah, you know, I'm so inspired and I went to a high school graduation this year, which was my nieces, but to hear the Valedict Victorian speak and I mean, everything is just these young leaders, they have so much going for them, right? And I'm just so curious Mohan and I don't know if any of us know this answer, but at some point in our life, right? Like someone told us, we can't do this, we're not good enough, we're not, like someone like just put out our candle, put out our flame, right? But I love when these young aspirational leaders, like they haven't had enough of that yet and they are full steam ahead. And I just wanna step out of the way and say, go, like go as fast as you can. So I'm so inspired by your mission and what you do and I'd love for you to tell us a little bit about what it's like and how can we open more doors for the next generation of leaders, in particular people of color. What does that look like? Well, I love that question and also just Jared, the example that you shared, because I do think that oftentimes when it comes to leaders of color and young people, like recognizing that you have breakthrough potential, it should just be as simple as, well, hey, like I just opened the top of the pipeline and so go change the world. Right. It's never been that simple for anybody. I think particularly for young people of color from black indigenous and brown communities, from the LGBTQ community, you have a lot of the naysayers, right? You have a lot of folks who are explicitly telling young people that, you know what? I don't think college is for you. So maybe we'll talk about a vocational path. I don't think this AP course is for you. Let's talk about maybe some other offering that we might have. And so you have all these boundaries and these obstacles that are created and some of them are just structural. So even if it's not being said, but the structures are built in a way that limit access. Now what we need to do is we need to flip that. And of course we need to address all those deficiencies, but I think we flip it by thinking about how do you ensure that more young people and more people from communities that have been so disenfranchised for so long, how do they have allies in their corner? How do we find the folks who are cheering them on, who are invested in their success? Not just the folks who will show up on a conference stage and talk about, oh, this is the future and they're so important, but who's willing to show up and be a sponsor? Yeah. I'm just a mentor, but who's gonna be a sponsor? Like who is gonna be the one who says, all right, I see this incredibly just passionate and inspirational individual in front of me. I'm gonna go into my LinkedIn community and see who can I connect them with to help them to get a job. Like that is what sponsorship looks like. It's like, not just, oh, I'm gonna advise you on how you show up for an interview, but no, I'm gonna walk you through an interview. I'm gonna walk you through a resume as an application. So it's this notion, like we gotta show up. Like we have to show up. And the thing is, it's not a mystery because that notion of sponsorship, it has been happening for generations. It's just that it's been very homogenous and it has been translated to communities of color. It's happening everywhere else and that's why you see tables of power essentially representing the same types of folks over and over and over again because sponsorship has been happening because allyship has been happening but it has been shutting out certain groups of people for too long. So, or specifically, like how we could think about that is like, let's say that your organization or company has a diversity hiring initiative or your board of directors has a diversity hiring initiative and then maybe you're able to find some people of color to be able to be more representative of the community you're trying to serve. That's great, but once they're in the door, how are you backing them up once they come in? You know, talking about ongoing conversations, are you exploring what are the cultural dynamics that they're trying to navigate? What are some of the inherent biases you might have in your organization that is impeding their progress? To what extent are you just throwing them into the fire and expecting them to succeed? When in many cases, you literally are talking to one person of color amidst a sea of 20 white people. Like there's so much that comes with that. There are so many barriers that are being thrown at folks that are especially felt once you step into the arena and we have to be there with people. And that is an ongoing journey to be able to show up and to be willing to challenge our own thinking and our own structures so that we can actually be able to walk the talk on the promise of DEI and all the other acronyms and themes that are out there. Yeah. Mohan, what do you say to people? And again, you know, here I am a very Caucasian person with privilege but what do you say to people when they're uncomfortable having these conversations? Because, you know, I lead a lot of board planning and I know that a lot of these boards hire me because I look like them but I see that it's my responsibility then to plant the seed to say look left, look right and you all drove the same Tesla coming in, right? And dropped your kids off at the same private school but what do you say or how do you manage, I guess the conversation when it's uncomfortable? Because, I mean, I've been there but what do you say for that? That's a great question. I think has a multitude of answers. Sure. Folks navigate those conversations in many different ways. And so I'll share at least just what comes to mind for me immediately. And I wanna note that this is not the only way, right? People are not a monolith cultures are not monoliths. I believe that there is a higher order conversation that can be had in some cases, perhaps in all cases perhaps there needs to be more of a deconstructing of why are you comfortable? What is it that needs to be confronted? Right. And I think that type of reflection is necessary in this country in order to be able to do proper healing. Now, like that said, yet maybe that and I find that folks tend to be receptive to conversations when you start thinking about fairness, when you think about opportunity, you think about access, when you can demystify what can happen when you are having greater proximity to young people and to communities of color and first generation students because there's so much brilliance that exists there. There is inspiration, there is fuel, there is creativity and the reality is that as a society we need those things right now. Like we're hungry for that. And I think particular, the United States culture, one that takes so much pride in being able to push the boundaries and being innovative and being able to build like these masses of support, being able to build these movements and we take pride in that, right? Those are the things that as a country supposedly we're supposed to be patriotic about. Well, like there's a dissonance if you're patriotic about that, but then you shut out more than half the country, right? Like that doesn't make sense. That does not logically align. And so I think for us like at our turn, for example, the work that we've been doing over the past few years, there are individual programs and campaigns and initiatives but we've been fighting a greater fight to demystify what does it mean to actually join forces with young people? Because it needs to help to build a public will like so that superintendents aren't so scared about it. School board members aren't so scared, philanthropists aren't so scared and I've seen it 10 times out of 10 like when they're actually in proximity with young people, they hear what they have to say, they hear about their solutions and recommendations for the future and the desire from folks to be able to co-create the future. It's not like, hey, get out of my way but let's do it together. Yeah. Folks respond to that. Yeah. You know, I'm fascinated because I think there's like two big issues here. You have, you know, the issue of people of color and then you have another issue of youth or age or placement in on that spectrum of wisdom or whatever and the sense of, well, only people over a certain age can get to this point or can be in discussion or even in the nonprofit sector who can serve on a board. I mean, so it's kind of like a whole nother layer to this and so I'm fascinated to kind of get this piece of it as well by asking the question, can, you know, youth, and I'm gonna say youthful leaders, but, you know, younger leaders, do they have to like show up and look like everybody else around that table or can they invest more and being confident about who they are and bring that authenticity to the table? I think we need a lot more of the latter. I would sort of hope that young people do not feel like they have to show up in a certain way. You know, that's something that I've navigated for my entire life and, you know, I have folks who tell me now, hey, you know, just appreciate how you are just kind of authentically who you are in different spaces, you know, whether it's a donor or, you know, board member, staff member, wherever it might be and they're trying to figure out how to do that and I tell people every time, you know, first thank you and it was really hard for me to get here because I had a lot of arrows along the way. I took a lot of hits. I had a lot of people talking behind my back. I also had some people who were willing to pull me to the side and to give me some feedback, to give me some coaching, help me in this journey of discovery of not just, like discovery of how do I sit within places of power and tables of power, but also just who I am because like, are we expecting anybody to be fully formed individuals, whether they're 15, 20, 30, 40 years old? You got people who are 50, 60 years old who are trying to figure out who they are, right? It's ridiculous to expect people to just show up and like, this is just the one way you should do it. Like, because all of us are on that journey, right? And I think we could all afford to be a little bit more gentle and a little bit more compassionate. Now, when it comes to conversations that I might have, let's say with high school leaders at our return or leaders who are in college, for example, yeah, I try to balance it in a couple of ways. You know, like in some cases, I'm double the age of some of the student leaders, you know, who are working with. And, you know, I've been in this game for a while. I've had wins, I've had losses. So I do feel an obligation to help folks to understand, look, I'm not telling you to play the game, but here's how the game is played. So I'm going to make sure you're informed and you understand the pros and cons in that. Now let's talk about what that potentially means for you or like in sync with that. What does that mean for you? And what does authenticity mean? Like, what are the things that are absolutely necessary for this person to understand as a result of this engagement? What are the things that maybe you're trying to learn and you're trying to be able to understand and to be able to recognize? So I think that is a process that oftentimes at our turn will work through, you know, whether you're connecting with like an elected official or even like an internal staff meeting, like really trying to understand those dynamics, not just throwing folks into the fire. But I will say, I think we need to push those boundaries of how to show up far more often because like, I think the deep dark truth is that for so many of us who have been in the professional space for so long, there's so many things that we conformed to and adhere to that we were not happy with. Absolutely. Yeah. I mean, everybody else has to do it too. Yeah. That's oftentimes the next thought is, well, I went through it and so you should go through it. No, you can't like it. Why should you have to keep doing it? Why should we perpetuate that? That's right. No, I really appreciate that. And for me, I grew up in, you know, the Bible Belt in the Southeast, South Carolina. And so a lot of the conformity for me was like, this is how you're supposed to look, how you're supposed to talk, how you're, you know, all of this. And then the older I get, Mohan, and you said this, right? Like, we're all doing our best to kind of, you know, find who we are and how we want to show up and what is our authentic self today and what is it tomorrow? So I so appreciate this conversation. And you're right. I think, you know, as a leader in this space, we all have so much, I know I have so much work still to be done, not only for myself, but to be that sponsor and coach for others, I think is really important. I'm curious if you'll talk to us about what is it like to support people of color in leadership with an organization? What does that look like for you? Yeah, people of color leadership within an organization. I think for one, the idea of leadership, oftentimes we go right to what is the title. And the title must equate to leadership, right? So, you know, it's a sweet role. That must be leadership. But what I've seen now in being in this space for a while, particularly being at our turn, is that leadership is something you demonstrate. Yeah. And there are many different models of how that's demonstrated. Right. So, what I try to think about within our turn in particular is what are those models of leadership in many different spaces, many different levels in different contexts, and then how do we be able to lift that up? So, there is no person of color leadership monolith. There is no one title that only equates to leadership. What we've seen is that there are high schoolers who demonstrate a certain brand of leadership and certain characteristics that we want to be able to reapply across our entire organization. There are folks who have been working at our organization for five, six, seven years where we want more of that. They've got folks who maybe came in from somewhere else and they've been working professionally for 15, 20 years and they find different ways to demonstrate it. I think what ultimately it comes down to is like what are the real characteristics within an organization that fuel just your greatest impact that help to put you on that trajectory to your vision and therefore you want to be able to reapply that. You want to see that over and over again. And so, for example, at our turn, what we've talked about are certain characteristics that we saw embodied by different folks, again, irrespective of the title or the level that really represented our turn at its best. Like when we were just, all systems go, like the engines were fueled up and fired up and we're doing incredible things, like what was actually happening? And we saw, for example, there were folks who demonstrated a unity of purpose in how they operated across teams, across people. It was this collective energy. We saw there was a generosity of spirit with folks and again demonstrated across many different levels but people who are really extending themselves to one another really trying to have each other's back and figuring out how can I help you to solve another problem. And then there was also this notion of running through the finish line where people say, all right, this is something that I own. I'm going to have to figure this out. I'm going to need to have a growth mindset on it but I'm going to take it all the way through. I'm going to get this done, win, lose, or draw. I'm going to get this done. Then we're going to learn from it and then we're going to be able to move on. So those were certain characteristics that were exemplified by many people of color within the organization coming from many different backgrounds and experiences but we took the time to be conscious of that and to see that, hey, these things don't always line up with maybe a traditional regimented, maybe corporate style, capitalistic, white supremacist-informed model of leadership or alpha male model of leadership. Like this is actually something that is different and unique and we feel like we're able to thrive with that context so we had to name it, identify it, and then now we try to perpetuate some of those characteristics as much as we can. So I'm a lot older than all of you, probably like the two of you combined, I know, but you're pearls. But I've got to ask you this question and I'm showing my age here and my demography in this respect. You just had a birthday. And I just had a birthday yesterday. So we're pretending that it didn't happen. But where I came from in, like say, going into the workforce in the 80s, there was a huge, I know, Jared, you weren't even born in the 80s. No, I was still watching Saturday morning cartoons. Oh my God, kill me now. This is serious. There was like this whole movement and I feel like it's resurging and it was personality profile testing. And you would move through, even like in job interviews, and you'd have to take these personality tests and then you'd be labeled and then there would be this like structure, well, can this type of person work with that type of person? Are you, because I think you would game the system, you would answer questions because you knew it put you in a better light, right? And even as a young woman, I can remember these tests seemed like they were geared towards white men, right? How do you see that moving forward? Because I don't know about you, but Jared, I see a resurgence of that with like these labels of people and then trying to learn how we can work with one another with these labels. Yeah, I guess, I mean, there are a lot of different labels, like Myers-Briggs types and Strengths Finder and so on. I'll say like I'm all about centering on the individual, centering on the human, understanding who they are, what are their strengths in particular, and trying to be able to be into that, being able to maximize strengths. I know it's something that I respond to in many different ways. And so of course, my own experience in navigating these different settings and at times feeling like I was being forced to be somebody who I'm not, versus times where I could just be who I am and how I was able to thrive. Yeah, I want to find like, how can we support more young people in that process? And I think within the workforce, absolutely, but also within the educational system. We're talking about an educational system that has been built in a way to essentially be a factory, because it was designed from the times where industrial factories dominated the economy and we just never evolved it. So we're still out here trying to create robots when really what we need to be doing is centering on each individual human within the educational system. And then finding ways to be able to meet them where they're at, and to help them to be able to thrive in whatever unique or dynamic ways is possible. So yeah, I'm all for it. If we saw that in the 80s, I mean, for me, the individual side was like watching Ninja Turtles and Transformers and things like that. So that was me centering as an individual. But yeah, perhaps there's something to learn from past models. Yeah, but I don't know. See, I feel like for me, I feel like that's just putting people more into boxes. And then you lose that piece of being able to be more flexible, being able to be more unique, responding to the environment. But I'm seeing a resurgence of this. When I look at the landscape of executive training, a lot of this, and I call it personality profiling, is coming back up. To me, it's really kind of not so good. Yeah, I'm seeing it too. The last CEO search that I was a part of, they did perform the personality profiling. Another one where I'm serving as an interim, same thing. They wanted to know, what's your strength finder, right? And it's like, I don't know, but I know I've done all of them kind of a thing. I love to ask, similar Mohan, is what do you love to do, and what are you great at doing? And to me, those are your strengths. That's your zones of genius. That's what comes naturally. That's what Julia, we've talked about. Like, that's when you hit flow state, and you're doing something that is just so innate for you, and it doesn't seem like effort, you know? So I have seen them, Julia, and it's interesting, your perspective of them. Yeah, I'm not a fan in that way, but... I know they've been around since the 80s. I mean, who knew that? Oh, my God! Mohan, we interrupted you. Sorry. Okay. So I was just noting, I appreciate the, sort of like the reflection on, yeah, the boxes and the profiles. And I was just noting that, I think that there's some nuance there in, like ultimately, individualized differentiated support where each person can be able to thrive and feel liberated within any context or structure. We should aspire to that. And I think my point around nuance is, like helping young people in particular to be able to understand sometimes the language that is out there, to sometimes be able to translate certain feelings or emotions into words or themes or patterns can be helpful. Now, am I defending one single construct or label or profile or method versus another? No, I'm not because I haven't seen the one that just works for everybody. But what I have seen is that, you know, like it being, particularly being able to translate from, hey, here's my academic experience. Here's my experience in supporting my community, supporting my family, leading up to a point where now you're applying for jobs. What we know is that the language in the workforce is very different than the language in all of those other settings. And like that language difference can be a big barrier for a lot of people. And I think if there are ways that we can help folks to be able to understand like how do you more seamlessly navigate that transition? I think that the emerging workforce would be much better positioned. Well, I have so enjoyed this. I mean, I really, I love that there are people like you out there pulling through this next generation of leadership because you are right. We need to lean into this and without it, our country stagnates, our world stagnates. But we need to be developing this leadership, talking about this leadership. And I loved the word that you use, sponsoring it, not just mentoring it, but sponsoring it. I think it's really amazing. Okay, let's see if I can do this because I mean it, I'm going hard. Mohan Sivalo Ganathan. That's pretty good. That's pretty good. Thank you. Mohan Sivalo Ganathan. Okay, I can close. Mohan Sivalo Ganathan. Yeah, okay, awesome. CEO of Arturn, fascinating website. The art direction on it is really interesting and it really communicates. Mohan started this conversation talking about storytelling and linking that experience to what is going on and what's possible. And just visually, I really, that came through for me, Mohan. It's really a fabulously designed website. So check out Mohan and his team's work because there's something to be learned here. Again, I'm Julia Patrick, CEO of the American Nonprofit Academy. Been joined today by the nonprofit Nurture Self, Jarrett Ransom, CEO of the Raven Group. We have wonderful sponsors that help us have these conversations. They include Bloomerang, American Nonprofit Academy, York Part-Time Controller, Nonprofit Thought Leader, Fundraising Academy at National University, Staffing Boutique, Nonprofit Nurt and Nonprofit Tech Talk. Hey, Mohan, I hope that you have a great week moving forward. It's a Monday. Monday. Sorry, Monday. Yeah, Mohan, I always say, Friday gets all the fun, right? And Monday just gets snuffed again, like we all do at some point in our life. So I'm bringing back the revitalization of Mondays. I love it. All right, well, hey, everybody, more than 800 episodes in the nonprofit show. We've ended with this mantra. And I think it's really even better today. And it goes like this. Stay well so you can do well. Hey, everybody, thanks so much. And we'll see you back here for another episode of the nonprofit show. Mohan, you've really inspired me today. Thank you.