 Thank you all for being here tonight I'm going to read just sort of a formal notice to document The meeting we're having here So I am going to just read from the comments And then the plan is that we do have a presentation that we'd like to go through to give you some ideas of what we've been working on We've broken it in so that each person will be making a presentation Some of you have seen it before but it hasn't really changed So let me get underway here. So welcome and thank you for coming tonight and thank you to All that have attended earlier Written and have written or otherwise contributed comments and suggestions in previous planning Commission meetings The Commission has been engaged in the process of renewing the bylaws for several years From determining a process to tackle and modernize them to then moving through that methodology in a thoughtful and reasonable manner It has involved countless hours of volunteer time along the way the planning Commission has experienced changes in commissioners and Changes in town staffing all of which have contributed to a broader set of ideas These commissioners here tonight bring a plethora of experiences Residency in our town land use planning expertise GIS technology backgrounds and expertise To the thoughtful recommendations of this unified development bylaw document These regulations are not final Our goal here tonight is to continue taking public input on the proposed regulations and bylaws and to use that input to make the Changes that in our judgment are appropriate in fairness to the Commission We need to discuss your input before we make those decisions So we ask that we will so don't expect us to answer your questions or be revising the draft tonight We're going to take the information My name is Martha Stascus. I'm chair Katie Gallagher is vice chair Mary Cohen Dana Allen and Billy Bigner are all here for those that you that have not met our planning director Neal Leitner And He's not here tonight, but our zoning our new zoning administrator is Mike Bishop. Those are very valuable resources That we have now it's and they've been a tremendous help to getting us to this point to him tonight I'm going to read the form the public hearing notice We are here tonight to convene the second two public hearings to obtain public feedback regarding Proposed updated zoning bylaws. We refer to it as the uniform development bylaws phase one or Udb P phase P1 These bylaws supersede the town and village of Waterbury zoning regulations as amended through May 16th 2016 we refer to those as the 2016 zoning regulations It's only in the downtown mix use neighborhood campus commercial industrial residential one and Conservation flood plain zoning districts that are depicted you have That are depicted on the zoning district map The zoning districts in phase one are bound to the south of I-89 North of the Manuski River and east and west by the town boundaries of Bolton and Middlesex all other requirements of the 2016 zoning regulations with respect to the application processing review procedures including but not limited to the zoning permit issuance and design conditional use site plan and Subdivision review continue to apply will continue to apply in the Udb P1 zoning districts Any development including the requiring site plan review Shall meet in Shall meet in addition to section 301 the standards and requirements of these bylaws These bylaws will supersede the interim bylaws for the downtown zoning district adopted April 26, 2021 From now I'm missing presentation. This is the wrong document, but Well, so I'm just going to wing it From this point From this point We would like to know if there is anyone on the Zoom that To provide your name and then we will have that in the record. We have a sign-in sheet here I don't know where to look Anyone that's on zoom we would ask that you announce your name so that we can add it to the sign-in sheet here at the steel room Joan and Jeff Satan are here on zoom Thank You Joan and Jeff Satan Anyone else I? Think you got me about Danny come in here. Thank you, Danny This too, okay, thanks. Thank you all for signing in Who's first? Billy's first So I want to go through just some For the meeting tonight organizational matters first of all the planning commission is going to go through as well to set a brief Introduction to give everybody orient everybody as to where we are if you want to come if you want to comment Obviously, everybody signed up already If you're going to comment we last time we had a podium and a mic It didn't we didn't really need it, but it just needs to be loud enough so we're recording So you could stand up so everybody can see and be loud enough that would be great We put this rap paper here for people who are too shy to stand up in front of the cameras Just hand up a sip of paper and if anything comes up Comes to mind after this meeting if you would you can send an email that meal late late And EIT any art at waterberry vt.com and Mike's phone number is 802 So one of the things is unified development by-laws is a thick document It's hard to absorb. It's hard to think about just in a public hearing So there are plenty of online resources that we have had available for a while And I just want to remind you that they are there. I always find them by searching Waterberry vt UDP phase one and it actually works and then I get our page There's a lot of background up there Martha talked a little bit about the process, but I just want to remind people we've used two expert consultants We've had two open houses. We've got a lot of feedback from those open houses We've got these materials that summarize different aspects of the zoning districts and the details We have consulted with the DRV along the way And so we've tried to keep this and of course everybody's always invited to our meetings So we've really tried to keep this an interactive process as we're continuing to do that The important document on the website is what we call the UDP phase one draft document That is the draft of the bylaws right before the last public hearing Right. We've not made any changes to that yet because we're taking the feedback We started our deliberations in terms of what we would do But we wanted to sort of get this hearing in and then start thinking about how to put all of that together There's also a slider map. I think pretty cool map showing you What the area that Martha just described and as you slide back and forth you can see what zones has changed So if you were in a mixed use or if you were in a village residential, you slide over and you might be in mixed use now Or you might be and you can see that to see how your zone has changed or anything And then there are the story maps online The story map maps are electronic versions of these boards here But one caution, we did those months ago There are some tweaks to some of the details again we're taking so They're not exactly right but you know they're good resources at least good enough for now When in doubt, go to the UDP phase one document Look at that in the simplest place to go is the appendix When in doubt, ask I'm really just saying ask because we are this is a moving off it's a live object I would like to add to Billy's comment The value I personally find in these storyboards is when The dimensional standards have been changed They provide examples of what a zero setback looks like what an 80% block coverage looks like what you know And that would give you that's the value that I quite frankly see in in these storyboards To the side Thank you Billy Who's next? Me Next Very next, good You know can I drive? Okay so I'm going to talk about geography a little bit Okay so to talk about this and for the benefit of the people at home I'm going to use the cursor So as long as you can all see a little mouse The top shows the town of Waterbury In this phase one update we're not talking about the entire town You'll notice down here it says phase one update And this little inset area That's the area that we're primarily talking about So essentially this downtown area South of the highway bounded by our town boundaries on either side and then by the river So not the entire town we are talking about generally this area But keep in mind it also extends to the edges of the town So that's phase one Phase two is essentially the rest of the town we're not talking about phase two right now That's not in play yet So within that we also have zoning districts These zoning districts are important These are where you find all of the Permanent and conditional uses these are where you're going to find different dimensional standards Etc. Etc. So this is very important. This is the official map Billy did mention earlier the slider map that's on our story map online Some of those districts have been updated when in doubt. This is the official map This is on the website. So this print map is currently the most Recent version we actually put the date that it was created on there So you know when it was created So just keep that in mind The slider map is a really cool resource to see what the old zoning districts were and what they're going to be It's not always accurate. Please reference this I just wanted to make that very clear And so that's primarily what we're talking about today is the are these zoning districts Do you want to point them out at this point? Each one? I don't think we're going to point that into that at this point A note, this actually came up in our last meeting and we wanted to address this a little bit There are a number of different names for things in town There are a number of different districts in town that are applicable in this situation But we wanted to note that we're talking about zoning districts There are other things There is a state designated downtown area. This is a state program So that has nothing to do with zoning per se. We don't have control over state designated downtowns There's also a historic downtown designation. There are actually three in waterbury. So there's um What is it? Colbyville? Middle village and then the village Which doesn't actually encompass all of what we all think of as the village But that is the village historic district That informs this process, but it's not controlled by this process zoning is separate from this so And then over all of this we also have the uh edward for our utility district Which used to be known as the village and is now known as e-fud And you can see that this is that dashed line here so um We also have a while another district But all of this to say that this is relatively complicated And that these three different designations are not zoning districts They play into it in certain ways. They inform certain decisions, but they're not governed by zoning So we just wanted to point that out and make that very clear So I think that was somewhat confusing and so we recognize that Um, okay to quickly talk about this the background of primary goals Why are we doing this update? We're trying to bring these bylaws in line with the 2018 town plan We're also trying to ensure compliance with recent state legislation in particular act 47 Also known as the housing act that changed a lot of things within the state But primarily a lot of what we're looking at is increasing housing density and availability. I think we all know why We're also trying to increase the mix of uses including combined uses on the same parcel and even within the same building We want to encourage variety and diversity within the town That provides more opportunities for economic development Consistent with smart growth so densification in these areas where we have goods and services in a walkable area sewer service things like that and we're also trying to increase increased flood resilience to the grades to be possible We try to limit the number of zoning districts There are quite a few before and with the town and the former village coming together We wanted to streamline the number of zoning districts versus what we had before We're trying to give people more space to build up and to build out While also keeping a pedestrian friendly community acknowledging flood plain challenges Providing neighborhoods with opportunities for small commerce. I think that's really important in vermont And also trying to provide the drb the much beleaguered drb with clarity with clarity and specificity That's something they've asked for. I think it's something that residents have asked for So we're trying to get more clarity there Highlighted revisions. We made a lot of changes the home occupations and our specific use standards. So that's something of note We're increasing building or structure heights Primarily in the downtown mix using campus, but really across the board. And so that's a big change within these zoning bylaws There are a number of changes to setbacks through all zoning districts within phase one We're also increasing lot allowances. We've moved to a system of lot coverage So basically building footprint plus any impervious surface is now deemed lot covered And so we're trying to expand that for people so they can do more on their parcels We formalized the campus district that was formally an overlay now. It's an actual district on its own And so that actually allows more uses there including multifamily residential housing Act 47 introduced a lot of requirements You know including duplexes by right on residentially zoned properties I believe only within sewer and water service katie you're the expert on that or is it across the board Uh duplex is sorry Anywhere anywhere, okay Three or four unit homes in areas served by municipal water and sewer And then five plus units per acre in areas served by municipal water and sewer So remember and refer our utility district is that sewer water service area. So that's applicable in that area We're not talking about that entire area in this phase, but we are talking about it generally speaking Um, and then one other large changes downtown mixed use zoning districts We're proposing no longer allowing single family dwellings in those areas to be built Existing dwelling single family dwellings would be covered under a non conforming use statute Which is a fairly typical thing to do for Districts where uses have changed over time and they're no longer a conforming use, but they still exist. So Um This I think is really the the meat and potatoes If you're not a vegetarian or the tofu and green beans if you are But this is the recommended review The appendix use table. So there's a dimensional standards table and there's a use table So if you want a quick reference if you scroll to the back of the document It shows you very quickly All of these districts and then all of the potential uses and what is permitted What is conditional and what is not permitted? So permitted p conditional c x is not permitted Dimensional standards will tell you how big things can get on any particular lot Um, note, uh Great permitted use only requires zoning administrator review Without drb review whereas conditional use requires review and approval by the drb within that zone. So that's an important distinction for that and That's me. I'm done For now We're going to talk about the Or i'm going to talk about the design review overlay district, which you can see outlined in the map behind me this establishes Specific building form design standards a higher level review for proposed development for those areas of waterberry recognized Having particular historical architectural or cultural value We there is currently a downtown design review overlay and the We are expanding the boundaries We're changing some of the requirements of a design review overlay district And we're expanding the boundaries to include our proposed downtown boundary zoning district Our mixed-use zoning district and the campus zoning district in this part of town So some of the things that I I just want to read the purpose of We refer to this sometimes not lovingly as a draw but um We are considering these areas to be important to protect and enhance architectural and historic resources Encourage consistently high standard of design and new construction support and sustained pedestrian oriented downtown Straighten the community's vitality and historic function as a center for converse industry Government and housing and encourage new construction that will reinforce the qualities of the existing physical character While allowing freedom of expression compatible with the architectural vernacular of the community This is the one section and it is on in our Most updated draft on page starts on page 31. It's 16 section 1608. We have Made updates to if you have a paper copy or have only looked at this before the February 20th public hearing it has been updated because Simply because we were working on it two days before that. So, um, that's the one thing I would say make sure you have One way you can tell if you have the right thing is is there's a significant List of requirements if you are someone wants to demolish an historic building. So That's before we go any further. Can folks see where the district is on that? That's what I thought I'm just gonna outline So there's a red line on here And it goes from the end of the mixed use runs along main street all the way up to Just before the railroad bridge Follows the mixed use up to the interstate Follows it that you're going backwards I'm going this way Follows it out to the end On route two and then comes back down along here includes the compass the campus And back to the end of this. I just want to make sure we all know where it is It includes mixed use campus and the downtown districts I was pretty sure I couldn't see it. So I didn't think Yeah, no, no, thank you. Um, the important thing is that it's overlying the zoning districts and the when We do have a statement in that section 1608 that makes clear if there is a Disrequency for some reason on someone's property between the base zoning district and the overlay district requirements The more restrictive of the two applies. So that's just one other rule Ready ready Okay, so I'm going to Talk about the our kind of vision for the different zoning districts Briefly because I think we'd like to stop talking at you quickly But in general note that we have as was mentioned before Reduce the number of zoning districts in total you've changed some of the names Of different zoning districts. We've updated some of the purpose statements. So I'm going to run through some of those Purposes right now. Just we have kind of that overall context for what we're talking about but There are certainly lots of changes within each of those those districts in terms of uses and dimensions and all of that Um So the first one here is downtown. So we're looking at The red shaded area here. Um, and this if you think about This phase one area as kind of wanting to have our concentrated core of housing and and commercial services In this downtown area. This is where we have the highest Buildings our densest development and then everything kind of Trickles out from there. So our downtown area is where we have concentrated retail service office housing and other mixed uses In our historic downtown and the intent is to maintain or enhance this traditional The pattern of development to scale the pedestrian nature of the downtown And this as Mary just mentioned is also within the Design review overlay district So the next one is mixed use. So going out to either side of The downtown district mixed use if you can see is kind of difficult here, but it's an orange Thank you, billy So here we have still opportunities for housing and smaller scale commercial uses and other compatible Uses in the mixed use area and the intent of the mixed use district Again is to because it's not that far off from our down from our, you know, kind of historic downtown core This is still historic in nature. So we're continuing to really try to prioritize That village character and pattern and scale and pedestrian nature next one, please Is neighborhood and so neighborhood kind of shoots off a little bit further This is highlighted in yellow here But we still have access to infrastructure water wastewater services transit So this is More focused on residential uses But we also have some smaller scale commercial opportunities for These neighborhood areas. I think like home businesses Um, and we're still, you know, kind of within that really close proximity to the downtown core Um, next one, please, Neil So residential one gets much more much less dense in terms of housing businesses. So This is providing for mostly residential uses in a rural setting And the intent here is to accommodate housing um That is also trying to minimize the impacts on the environmental quality If you could see so this is our kind of teal color on the ends A lot of that is in the flood plain already So there's there's not really a whole lot of opportunity to develop there But we want to you know, there's obviously still homes that exist there Next one, please This campus are actually going back downtown here um campus is Um where we have the state complex But we have changed the name to this We know that's a really kind of beautiful historic structure. Um, and so the the purpose of this district is to protect and enhance that architectural Um and historic resources that we have there while also allowing for some new uses Including Multi-family housing if that were ever to come to be but we also want to ensure That some of the features of that area are are maintained Next one, please So commercial industrial This is in the purple zones. I think about pilgrim park But also we have these areas again kind of on either side of the the mixed use sides of the downtown And so this is really focused on these larger commercial spaces That are also we're looking for opportunities for businesses to move in that need a bit more space and types of buildings that That aren't necessarily with the exception of our pilgrim park area and then downtown Need a little bit more kind of land and might have more impacts that wouldn't be as appropriate directly next to Denser residential spaces Next one, please So this is the last district. This is the newly named conservation floodplain zoning district And if you can see on the map, it's in green light green very much on the edges and yeah Thanks for nail for pointing kind of behind where the campus area is and where we know The floodplain is and so the idea here is that we are protecting that land for Both the environmental benefits, but also keeping it in an undeveloped state because it is the most Vulnerable in terms of of the environment, but also in terms of people who live there, but we will Not allow people to live there in this in this proposed district And right now there is no residential So all don't all of the properties that are within this area are owned either by Um utilities, the state. It's not it's not land that is currently privately owned Um, so that is it and we will stop talking and We would welcome any questions Cheryl Is this wrong now then that you're not going to allow, uh, see the family dwellings and the mixed use zoning district This was on the leaflet So you've changed that from last, okay It's not from last From when those were updated. Sorry. Well the last meeting. Yeah. Yeah, the last These were here. Go ahead. Go ahead. I know they were saying Yeah, we have changed them. Yeah. All right. So I have a couple questions and then I just have a couple requests So what is the highest building currently in the village right now? It's the I don't have that number off the top of my head, but during our deliberations. We did have um Some information from I don't know if it was I think it first was from our previous planning director Steve lot speech and we geared things to sort of match and not go way above the current height Okay, so you're saying one of the buildings in the village now is 50 to 60 feet right correct So that the steeple's not the roof line remember that's an adornment on the roof We made sure and you can see around Why don't you tell us what your point is so my my point is 60 feet It's pretty high. Yeah, if you're going to the steeple. Yeah a steeple's an adornment on a roof You can see around a steeple if you start building 60 feet buildings throughout the village Right, but the village is also downtown When you don't have a main street the village is is your reference to all of the town, okay Main Street, that's fine. We're talking zoning districts. Okay. Yeah, so the zoning district the downtown zoning district There you go. The only one in which 60 foot is the proposed Building or structure height correct that's on main street. That's correct So we have that map that shows exactly where it is. But yes sections of main street up to the rail bridge down to Bachelor Street There's space that someone wants to put a six story building 60 feet as long as they as long as the design overlay District requirements are met. Okay So that's my concern if we're going to a steeple height, which we're thinking is the 50 or 60 foot height That's pretty tall. Do you have a recommendation? I do actually I would recommend that we keep it at four stories And allow the opportunity to request a waiver from the drb Which would give the drb and the town latitude to look at the design Look at what the impact is going to be in the surrounding areas to the surrounding neighbors I think that would allow us to Maintain control on what's being developed, but still, you know, keep that density in there that we want to I'm you know, my concern is we start throwing up six story buildings before you see it You know what you can't see the sky anymore Just one point of clarification The story doesn't have dimensions So we six story building 60 feet We do these dimensions in feet So we're not going to do them in storage because they don't typically have a dimension So four stories would be 48 feet typically, and that's what we would adopt potentially So I'm I'm going to know if you said four stories, but then 48 feet would be Well, I guess you know, that's why I asked what the tallest actual building is in the I think it's just asking us to all talk in feet. Okay. We're not talking in storage. Okay. So what's the highest I think it's it doesn't matter the recommendation you're Objecting to is the fact that we've proposed it to be 60 feet. That's correct. Okay. That's correct. We want to make that taking input here I I realized that but the the height of the buildings we did in feet as well And even though some of the buildings may only be three four stories The height is close to 50. So we're want to allow For a look, you know somewhere in that range With knowing there are going to be design review criteria that has to be met Right, and that's why I'm asking it to be lower because I That's fine. I hear you. I just wouldn't clarify. It's not based on the steeples. It's based on the buildings She said that that's all. Yes. Sorry. I mentioned that. Yeah. Well, that's okay. Well, that's why I asked what we were considering to be The 50 feet so I have a visual. Yeah, that's actually 50 feet right now. Very fair, right? So that's what I was asking. Yeah, that was my question. Okay. Tell you off the top of our head, but we did look at Yeah, okay and the other thing is So I guess My question is why did we think that 60 feet was a good height? Because again, we're trying to increase density in the center of town and so one way we can do that is by going up And so we have this You know, we have an architectural mass in certain parts of town We have access to water sewer, etc. So that was the logic behind that Um, and then I guess the other thing is another why question Why was it decided that single-family dwellings would not be good in the mixed use zone area? I mean this I think we gave you the two zones are made up of single-family dwellings right now right, so the One of the criteria that we have kept in mind at a very high level throughout all of these Deliberations and input is taking information with respect to housing. Okay And density and the goal here is to bring us together in the downtown in the and so as as katie Nicely explained, you know, the most densest area is a terrible It is the densest area is the downtown and then it sort of peters out if you will and and expands that way But again the purpose is that as as data said Uh Occupying the lot coverage and going up bring it in where we need more housing We need and we were so we're increasing the density by going by expanding the lot coverage and going up Can I can I correct the record on one thing? We picked 60 feet because that was in the interim by-laws So we didn't actually go up any higher that was already passed in the interim by-laws But we did all but we okay, we're not here to do it We want to hear other people's comments too All right, so I'm just gonna again recommend. Yep, it in line for uh, see what comes. Thank you very much. Thank you Thank you. Thank you Roger clap the village as well um I second what Cheryl just said uh, and uh, I wanted to check with the fire chief. I'll do that To see about our fire protection for a building that is in excess of 50 feet I know there's a concern. He mentioned that he might have to buy like a whole new Tower truck, which would be extremely expensive for the town So just I'm going to check with him If that is a real concern with him with him, I think it's going to impact The select board's ability to approve that that condition Um, and I also want to say that I have to go to a recreation meeting now So sorry miss the rest of this, but we've got excellent representation here. So I'm sure I'll catch up on it Thank you. Thank you Hi, I'm uh, p martel and um I guess my questions are on the campus district that's being formed and I want to I guess third Cheryl in the sense of the height 60 feet now probably I think probably the The old hospital complex is is pretty up there as long as you look at the chimneys on that and all that so But a couple of my questions. One is is the the nightclub Permitted use like right from the get-go As an I'm going to butter to that so that's obviously, you know, I have concerns about about a nightclub just getting you know rubber stands And then the other thing being In the in the floodplain, how does that exactly work? How the right up there? Yeah, thank you for putting that up there How you have the the floodplain like overlaying the actual campus campus district and what how that affects You know any reimbursements from FEMA and so on and so forth that if it's codified in our bylaws That you can build there, but then does that reduce our our FEMA reimbursement when it comes to flooding which chances are So, sorry So, so do you know? Yeah, you want to know how the flood The FEMA requirements interact with the zoning or how our current floodplain regulations interact with this new Yeah, what what the floodplain regulations like what takes priority when you know You pass this rule over here and this rule over here and now you want to try to do something and which one Takes precedence I mean you can't fill the building if you don't need the flood hazard requirements or if you don't need the zoning requirements, right? So the state has floating floating Flood plain I know a lot of time tonight flood plain regulations and you would have to go through the state regulations as well as go through the town for zoning And does that so then does Do our rules then? Again, do they affect kind of the reimbursement rate? So a few past rules that don't meet quite FEMA's requirements Does that kind of hinder us the next time a flood happens in Getting reimbursed from FEMA and so on and so forth like that whole seven does it seven percent seventeen percent? Yeah talking about the community rating system that crs. Yeah, no, this would not affect that What could affect it is if you did if you were somehow able to build something that was not meeting the floodplain regulations That the state administers Which I don't see that really that could really happen so But hypothetically if something was built that did not meet the state's floodplain regulations that Would not be good for our community rating system But in terms of the campus zoning district that would not have an effect on our crs So, yeah, so so sorry the uh the nightclub the nightclub issues with that Do you have a recommendation for the nightclub? Well Well, yeah, yeah, uh, I guess my question would be is Yeah, I mean to The Purpose of a nightclub in that kind of historic area I feel like there's a little lot of character and I'm not sure how that was applied into the campus as opposed to say that And I have I do have an answer for you on that in that like I think that we tend to think of like nightclub in a colloquial sense like Laser lights and european people and new type Silver shirts Exactly speak for yourself Or however you think of nightclub. I don't know how you think of nightclub. Um, that's how I think of nightclub However in that same definition it it is under event facility as well Um, and so the thinking there was that there could be a use of that space for as an event facility so think things like Wedding reception. I I you know I see a line was drawn from a convention Yeah, exactly and you know As well as Within the specific or the the use standards there is quite a bit of language And if it if you're interested you should definitely look at this but We did think about that in terms of soundproofing and like external versus internal noise And so there is quite a bit of language on page 20 regarding that So Heard as far as your reservations go But there is a nuance to it well and I would add on to that So the other part of the there's more parts to the piece if you will or pieces to the part in the sense that There's also a lot coverage limitations So the concept I think at least from my perspective was to What if the state moves out and we have this empty building again What could be used within the building Without necessarily expanding the footprint and from that perspective, you know weddings or conventions or There's an opportunity for large open spaces within the within the building We left the lot coverage at like 60 percent. So the entire just of the yeah on the whole district So it's really not allowing for new structures Or a lot of new structures if you will and then I know that we were very thoughtful Actually, we talked about it a couple of times as to protect the horseshoe and not seeing that split up Because that can be a real community center gathering. So It's a good question And we should look it's written down. We will talk about it. Thank you. Thank you for all you Thanks for bringing me here. That's a good one Kathy I My name's Catherine grace. I live on south main street I just want to piggyback on him that when we had trouble with the noise down south main street We discovered we don't have a noise ordinance in this town So I if you're going to allow night clubs, that should be one of the things that should be addressed Secondly, I had a pleasure this week of spending every single day on the phone trying to get house insurance from my apartment houses And the two big questions were how far are you from your neighbor? And how far are you from a commercial building? Depending on how far you are from them your rates go up So when you're talking about um, and actually had to go to an insurance company outside Vermont to get that because I've had horsemen for years and there are no longer ensuring commercial properties So the the being able and how far are you from a fire hydrant those three things your neighbor How far are you to a commercial building and how close are you to a fire hydrant? So if you I think you need to discuss that as a group and check on that because my insurance went from $700 to $1600 on each house And that's a lot. Thank you and it's going to be passed on to renters One more time in addition to the flood insurance, which is going to be passed on to renters And there's only so much that we can afford You know to do that and I also I hope you got the picture that I showed you of what a three foot distance looks like between the reservoir and Sunflower there's no way a body could even get in between there to say anything about the damages So a zero setback Is my opinion and I'm hoping and finally make getting to make that point is just unacceptable And there needs to be in my opinion Six to ten or six is the minimum I would expect and I wish it was more because if you multiply that space by three It's still not very big so I live in the village as well I have a quick question about workforce housing and the zoning that we have here I understand that we need to build up But i'm asking also the question about Um zoning within Maybe potentially like owning homes and small houses Like can we and can we zone? For even like the campus district speaking of stanley wassen. Yes. I'm a neighbor But is there a possibility if we have to build there Can we build a small village of tiny homes? So instead of building apartments that are 600 to 900 to 1200 square feet for one or two Is there possibility to build a village, you know a small where people can Purchase a home Have that ownership buy into the community of waterbury versus renting an apartment Um, I am a big believer in community We've been here a few years now and we want to see this place really thrive and Apartments are great. We love them. We want to see this like to grow But we should do it sustainability and I think there's ways where we can Build these homes That are sustainable as well and I will help Do that But I I do want to consider like you everyone wants to say no more single-home housing But can we start to think about the small homes too? We don't need to just build apartment buildings or multi-family homes Here. Thank you. Oh I was just could you know of examples that you could point us to or Yeah, I'll send them It's your it's your question about examples billy of Where that's being done or how it's being done. Well, where's being done? Yeah, where okay getting elsewhere in vermont Not in vermont specifically But in other communities around the country where it's been very successful there are rules and regulations and some of these can be zoned where it's meant to say there's a deed restriction on it where it can only be sold to somebody else That is a community member or a workforce member There's a way to do this. So I I just ask that we don't restrict all of our zones to just apartments that we do have some ownership in this community People are there You can ask me clarifying I just wanted to ask an additional question or Add something for you to look at we do have Part of our regulations on multi Family multi unit can apply to a collection of smaller right now the number is 10 We've already discussed that that's too high. So we're Trust me. I we've talked a lot about tiny homes and making sure that the small lots in the small So we're we're still working on that but we've we haven't not discussed it. I I understand that But I hear a lot of no more single homes no more single family homes and I live in a community right now among Randall and elm and even on yin and in other places where We have a lot of people that are up and coming and they want to have homes and they are starting to grow families and If you say no more Then where do we go? Where does my child go and she wants to get married and have a family? She's not going to come back to the water very Excuse me Wait wait wait wait wait Just a second. Could you wait? So No single family no additional single families mixed use and Downtown not neighborhood not residential one Right, but I'm also looking at the open spaces in waterberry town and village itself We don't have a lot to do that with right and if you look at the campus district We do if you're going to build on Stanley and wassen hall You have an enormous amount of space to do a lot with This is where the blanket is Is this your bike? No I know Those are for us Um, I am not proposing a development. No, no. I'm just saying what's not restricted That's all um Specifically on campus No anywhere. I mean if you have a lot that could accommodate You know four to five small homes that an individual could purchase And have ownership in Why would you restrict that versus like building a larger apartment building that had four or five homes? Like if you want to incorporate people that want to buy into this community for sustainability Then let's do this once You know, like let's look at the sustainability. Like let's if you keep building apartment buildings and that's all you want to build Then people are going to be transient No one is going to stay for the long run and you can step into a position where you're saying Hey, buy into our community. Be the first time homeowner. Those people are going to buy them By my home that has three bedrooms You know and you can de-restrict that It's been done in other communities So i'm hearing that your recommendation is that you want our zoning to Encourage more single small single-family homes Versus necessarily encouraging apartment buildings. I am saying don't restrict it Okay Not encourage. I said do not restrict. Okay. And was there another recommendation specifically within Within what you're what you're speaking to? I would say that if you did Want to make it sustainable that there is a deed restriction on those smaller homes So it wasn't just bought by a corporation or a Person who is going to rent it. It has to be someone who is local It needs that home Okay, okay. You guys all ready? No, I want to ask one question You Well, what intrigued me was you start and maybe I just picked up on the wrong word But you started your comment by saying workforce development and I'm not seeing what's the tie between Words workforce development and the single family. Is there a specific? So If Everyone keeps talking about affordable homes So who's the affordable buyer? Okay It is this the nurse is this the teacher is this that That family who is starting out? um that wants to live in Waterbury grommet. That's what i'm looking at. Okay. I'm not looking at the person who needs an apartment I'm looking at the person. Well, it's a person that needs an apartment may also be part of the workforce development Yes, okay. That's what I'm trying to understand what you meant by workforce development. Okay. I apologize. Thank you Thank you. So with your recommendation Not restrict like a condo structure. Let's say you had a large building, but it was a condo structure. So it was individually owned How would you want us to treat that? Sure I think there needs to be a next use of House opportunities. I mean if if you look at What are you looking? You know We were in the same position many years ago trying to find a home And we were lucky that we found one that rock bottom races, but we're still like Trudging away like fixing the plumbing that breaks every single day, you know That's that's not the option that most people would take So I think your point really here is home ownership versus renting. Yes, and you need to be able to find that That's important. Yeah, that's a good, you know, we're not just the community that yeah, that is going to say Let's just build and go. Yeah, that's good. Please keep keep in mind the people that want to stay here you know They have an 18 year old Thank you I said I would accept a minimum of six I'm wrong because I remember that my husband told me before I left you can know Propane tanks have to be 10 feet from a property line You used to be able to put them anywhere and in an alleyway and you can't do that anymore So they have to be 10 feet from a property line. So that's the minimum I would accept Anyone else? Yeah Hi, I just first thanks for last minute making zoom available. I couldn't make it there and I thought I wasn't going to be able to make it So I appreciate it um, I have not so much a recommendation but just a little bit of feedback to keep in mind which um You know, I don't want to sound as like a rebuttal but just another input. So I'm a renter I am almost 40 years old and I've been a lifelong renter and I love renting and I never really have a desire to own a home And that doesn't mean that I am You know, like not bought into the community. I was an elected official. I work here and Waterbury is the best thing that ever happened to me in my entire life. Um, so I um, you know There needs to be that mixed use and and options for everybody whether it's purchasing Whether it's a small home or a larger home or renting condo style whatever it is But like there are a lot of me's in our area and also in our country just in general And renting is a really important part of buying in our community just because you don't own property Doesn't mean you don't have ownership here In our town in our community in our workforce in our families. Um, I've been volunteering here for over a decade You know since I moved here. So for me, I really do appreciate the eye on renting the shift into that availability of You know putting people in a place that works well for them on a smaller scale, which is you know, I don't I don't need a Multi-bedroom home. I probably never will So I don't necessarily have a recommendation I think it's important to keep everyone's perspective including people who already own a home and may have one perspective And then people who want to buy or want to rent So I just appreciate the work you're doing and I really appreciate the chance for all of us to to give perspective So you can use that as you move forward Thank you Thank you, Danny Valerie roger south main. I just wanted clarification on I can only concentrate on my zone, which is downtown south main street, correct? Um So I own a single family home my neighbor does so in that region of south main Can we sell and maintain it as a single? Yes So I think for me what stands out as the interim zoning laws by laws And 51 south main street kind of Set a precedent that I don't like The zero setback the height. I don't think it fits in with south main street the way I want main street to look Um, so I'm really afraid that more of those will come along. So my clarification you gave me more of 51 south main, right? Okay, it's funny for you. Right because I guess I'm afraid even if you You know amend these there's a precedent now with 51 south main street. It doesn't look like a main street that I want I want single family homes. I want some like what you're talking about in the beginning is actually just Viability and economics for main street. I think when we all Visit other towns wood stops. So it's beautiful to walk through the towns. We have some lovely signs Out there and I'm just wondering where where the gateway district is because there's a sign now that says there's a gateway district That's a better question for Karen evidence No, I'm just making a point that there the districts are just crossing Yeah, um, you know get information kiosk again. I think that main street I hope it doesn't go to the point where it's zero set back I think Another example would be in my own backyard. I think two and a half years ago If someone put a garden shut up on my prop close to my property line It would have to go through a permitting system So I know that this is trying to make applicant easier for applicants And easier for the zoning administrator to pass things without including neighbors But now people get to Put that garden shed wherever they want to and I have to have a pretty big lot So for me, these are all big things That people back and put things wherever they want to without connecting with their neighbors As long as it kind it works with us So, okay, so your recommendation is that you wouldn't Support the elimination of single-family dwellings in downtown, right? And I think you just said that's not or makes use So that I would support You sell a single-family home that can maintain a single-family home I think last time we were talking about No, so what The bylaws say What what is proposed that new development of single-family dwellings in downtown and mixed-use districts Would no longer be allowed. So new construction. So By So that's a non-conforming use of an existing structure So you're a single-family dwelling within downtown and mixed-use if this goes forward, right? You then become a non-conforming use so you can maintain it as a single-family dwelling If you have changes and things like that depending on the changes That may require additional oversight or review But no one is going to come to your home and say this is no longer allowed Split it into tear down, etc. Right. So it continues throughout However, if you were to split off part of your parcel And sell it the only thing that someone would be able to do would be an allowable use So that would be a duplex or greater or another type of use on the parcel, right? So that's how that would work Does that make sense? It does The other thing I'm going to add to what data just said is that anyone that is going to make a change In the downtown mixed-use and is in the design Review over design review overlay district We'll go through the drb All right, and that means that the neighbors get noticed and so and to me as you said I agree with you when you talk about, you know, I want to know what's going on or what's happening next door That's your opportunity to continue to participate While you're being noticed if they're going to put a shed there and you can come to the drb meeting and and I know they can put a shut up though. What's that? They can put a shut up No, no, they have to come to the drb and go through a design review overlay That's one of the criteria and so the drb has the opportunity to say, you know Your neighbor is not happy about that. Can you please move it back? All right, I did not understand that when I was reading this downtown zoning district, right But see you got to read it in whole. Okay. We were talking about this a little bit earlier about lock covered versus permitted uses Versus heights. It's also design review overlay and while and well Just a secondary The zoning districts Address allowed and permitted and conditional uses uses and then design review overlay Is the additional layer that gets to And in some cases the use standards will will dictate what Is allowed for the performance for the development standards Okay, noise landscaping things like that for the design review overlay Is really designed to make sure that the character of our area remains has has some guidance I'm going to say it that way because they go to the drb. This is where we have spent time saying, you know Trying to pay attention to what the drb The drb implements what the planning the zoning just the zoning bylaws are right Right, so we really tried to focus on the design review to maintain our character elements While in in zoning districts allowing more uses or permitting, you know addressing the uses Does that make sense? Oh kind of I mean, I know this is meant to be easier than it was I'm not too less Less permitting less admin Involvement, but now it sounds like there's still going to be a lot of involvement if it's Particularly in this area. I mean, you know, we do want Community participation if you will okay, and so that's if it goes to Downtown mixed use campus It's going to go through design review and then that notifies the neighbors of what's going on It with some with some exceptions like your shed question though. It's over it's over 500 me It's over 500 square feet. It's not any shed. So there that is a slight change, but I just want to speak to the Zero setbacks because I've been a proponent of that of reducing the setbacks the built environment in Especially the downtown even the proposed extended downtown boundaries are either already Buildings right next to one another or they're built as I my home your home other homes that of folks who are here they're One side of the building is close to the property line and then there's a whole driveway on the other side and so there's not but if I wanted to Change something add a bup out or something on my for a window With four six eight foot setbacks as they exist now That would be a need over variants would have to go to the drv As opposed to just putting in a new window that's not going to affect my neighbor At all so so it's trying to find a balance between Oversight getting the drv involved making sure everybody understands and not have people having to needlessly Go through the expense and the delay in whatever home improvements they want to make Because of outdated Setbacks that don't take into consideration the built environment as it exists So we're trying to I mean I I could appreciate what you're saying I think the circle value of 51 is Not there. So I'm just wondering you did talk about historical Perspective, how do we maintain a little bit of that? I like I said, I really think that 51 something although I So for affordable housing, I think that is going to be a nightmare for multiple reasons But that's not why I'm here tonight But I just want to make sure that that is not going to be Main street water very because I think sort of our musicians Yes, the dimensional standards are currently in existence in the interim downtown Sony but the current design review is not So we're hope we we did have a lot of conversations about That building what could we add that makes it look a little more like what we have without Hampering the ability for more housing so we We we are with you. I mean You know like I'll be honest I made a personal pitch for looking at showing examples of housing Multifamily housing that's done in in Morrisville and Hyde Park and because I wasn't really particularly happy with the 51 South Main either But again, I'm we need more housing and so it's to me the design review overlay District is really important And to strengthen that to try to maintain the character element of the of the area while Still bringing more people together and increasing our density and increasing our economic opportunities I mean, you know, snow street the buildings are all touching each other And yes, they're you know shops and businesses And you know the opportunity to bring more small businesses into the downtown and be able to walk to them And utilize that kind of a built environment as Mary's saying that's what the balance that we have been struggling with For the whole last year. It's beautiful. I think that main street is yeah Yeah, so I think that there are maybe five homes on South Main Street that are occupied by owners Right five on that whole main street In your south main street On South Main Street On South Main Street I'll say there may be owners, but they're renting right. I'm saying completely owner owned by I mean, it's sad that there's only five That so many have sold to people out of town and they're renting them And I just think it's pretty ugly down there. So I have to talk to neil So so we have some changes here. We're just the word we were using we're going to hover out the town You know the statistics show we can't blame You know young families to town where we are we can't people are leaving the kids go to college and they leave We wind up with bringing in seniors that need support. So something's going to change And when you talk about housing You're making my input invalid my input is about main street and how it looks And I don't like it to be the way it looks now and I don't want it to be multiple rentals So that's my input Yeah, I think I think we're and we talked about designer you overlay and how that affects character and aesthetics I think we've heard your argument as far as character and aesthetics go Um, this is really valuable for us to take under advisement as we finalize these So and I think and you also mentioned setbacks. I think we captured that um I think we are there are other things that we did not capture. No Okay Thank you for I appreciate it. And you guys have worked really hard. I know you're volunteers, so I'm sorry, but It's input. I'm giving it to you. I don't that's what we need. Yeah, that's what I'm trying. Yeah Spot on yes, sir. So my merchant on the one mark main street So my correct that we have The zoning and then I being on 25 north main right across the street here. Am I in and the Town downtown developer review section The state historical downtown overlay district and the state Downtown review section. Am I all three of those? You're really close Zoning Downtown zoning district. Yes, you're in the designated State designated downtown Okay, it's not a zoning district developer review You're in the design review overlay district, which is applicable Which is applicable to your zoning district Okay, and then what was the historic? I think you're in the historic district. Okay, so who has privacy because a lot of times They conflict with each other. So I pay a permit fee for here Then I pay a permit fee for here. I pay a permit fee for here I've done it many times And and they're also the same thing I pay a permit process to the state and I pay a permit process to the town What for review? Yep For for so when you build if you want if you make modifications You pay a fee for a permit for the state based on what you're doing and the same thing for the same thing for the town You're talking about a building What's that a DFS permit a building permit through the state? It's a Whatever, I don't know While I'm residential, but I have you I have units I have two apartments So anyway, I'm just saying who has primacy there when they're when they're in conflict So the zoning district the town zoning district is going to Drive that right and and in that zoning district review site plan review The the design over design review overlay. It's going to apply Okay The state and in part of your permit that you get issued from the the drb Is going to say you must you must comply with all other required state and local permits. Okay So if you need a wetland permit like if you're building a residence that's on you know, you have to stay out of the wetland That's a statement. Yeah. Yeah. Okay. I hope to stay out of the wetland If I could just clarify my your your um when you said commercial there is a fire marshal Oh, I know oh When you have maybe that's all I mean that's what's 40 at 47 change that Duplexes don't require the fire marshal, but anything over that I believe would require a fire marshal if you're renting it Yeah, so my interest would be Inside my house. So maybe I want to add one more unit. Say I want to add one more unit The historical piece really doesn't come into play because it's inside the developer review Doesn't really come to play. I mean I'll have to go through the process, but it's inside Versus outside, correct? Right? So I'm just getting cleared for kind You're not changing the you right, right? Well, I would change it well Potentially you'll be adding a unit. So even though I already have other units Well, that's what Katie said and you're increasing the number we were we're not permitting that You don't want to discourage you. We're not Yeah, yeah, you're sure you're not feeding that. Exactly. Exactly. Okay. So I just want to make sure that all these dr All these reviews. I hear you people don't really know Once you go through a developer review and you go through the permitting process Do you think you've done everything you need to do? Then you tell you you don't you're not doing everything you need to do you go through this other developer review You're like I already went through the developer review. So you can see how it's complicated Right, and I didn't know who has primacy because sometimes they conflict, but thank you And thank you for all your hard work Thank you for taking the time to listen to us. I appreciate it. Thank you very much Good job everybody We're all friends Mike Barnard First of all, I want to really thank you for all the hard work that you guys have done It's it's been a journey and you've done a really excellent job I'm glad that we've we've gotten here after kind of interim zoning So I'm glad to see a final project that three things that I want to address one is I've heard a lot of comments About single family multifamily duplexes I think we need all the problem is I've been I've been in the housing industry You know for 40 years dealing with single the whole gamut of housing You're not going to get on main street the house that the lots are just too valuable to put in A single family house and if it's going to be a single family house, it's going to be a 700 thousand dollar single family house So it's not going to address single affordable housing I think there are options. They have the tiny homes and stuff like that But the density you're probably going to have to look at is more going to reside outside of the village kind of limits It's not going to be really there. There are very few places maybe in the You know the campus district, but the problem is with anyone who's developing housing They're going to look at They're going to need larger densities to make the thing work I'm sorry. We're not in communist china. We're in a profit country and developers even the affordable housing developers You know, I I used to be years ago on the board of downstream housing It was central among community land trust and it was you know, it's very expensive to build affordable housing So it is I would like to see a multi-level of housing built Secondly the 60 60 foot limit. I share roger claps concern about fire equipment Are we going to have fire equipment? It's going to be able to serve that I I think maybe if we could look at, you know, we're at 48 to 50 feet now Can we look at like a similar Size which is going to accommodate people who don't want, you know, really large houses But it can go higher because sometimes they have adornments that are going to you know, they're really not Well that's structural, you know, they may be cosmetic and stuff and it's going to throw it, you know, you know out of the consideration And I think that that's just you know, I I don't know if if that hard and fast 60 foot level is going to Work because I think a lot of people are going to be concerned about You know, some people said six story housing. I still even at 60 feet I don't think you're going to see six story housing. You're probably going to see four Maybe a five story story house. So it's not going to be significant. They hire And the biggest concern I I probably have I know this is your first step This is phase one, but I'm most concerned about what's going to what's the next thing the root 100 car Or that's kind of where we need a lot of work on Some zoning restrictions because I don't think any of us in town But maybe some of us do we don't want to see it become willson road shelbert road, you know, and okay, but we're not here to talk about I understand Just making a pitch. I think that's that's the next step. Can I ask you a question? Sure So you have so first of all We want to go on the record here that we invited the fire department and we've not heard from that So I heard roger's comment and now to your comment We've not heard from the fire department They should have commented. Yeah, we would have appreciated that would have been great. Um, Secondly, so you said so with that in mind, okay You're you're You know the interim bylaws have 60 feet now, right? Okay. I just wanted to make sure No, I I 100% know that I just the left board approved I understand and I think it was after that that's when the fire chief raised some Concerns, but I think with the 60 foot. I think sometimes it's the you know, when you have some of the accessory parts the buildings that went over that You know, 48 foot level. I think that was where the interim bylaws was going to allow those kind of things And my memory is is I Said in part earlier We got information that the currently tallest building not church spires right is 50 feet So we didn't want you know and Building codes change building requirements. So we're not as data said. We're not looking at stories We're looking at height and that would be the maximum We would hate to you know, put in a 50 or a 55 foot height And somebody needs 56 for some legitimate reason and make that complicated So well, we'll take a look and we'd love to hear from the fire department You know, you're a liner truck. It's going to be a million dollar. Yeah, we're not we're not We're not looking to make that. Yeah. We're not looking to do that I will say the other uh element that I think got some of the board members comfortable with that height Was the fact that we've also put in there. Did we put in their language about promoting parking on the ground? Yes, yeah, okay. So if you start we figured out that includes So we started with 15 feet We we got some guidance on this 15 feet for the parking and then put the four stories above it three to four stories You know, so then you get up to 60 feet and with the flooding that we've seen here lately That was one of the ideas we were trying to promote parking underneath right and lastly Lastly being a former drb member I think you've done a lot to create some consistency Where they could bank their heads on thing which I think is really important to the drb To them not having they say well, we have to approve it because we No, no, no, they came to one of our meetings. I know it was extremely helpful And and one of the requests was to put 60 foot buildings in the neighborhood, which we chose not to do So we we we've gotten input all over the place, but but Mike um The the question about um or the issue of height I I think I just for the record. I think we've got to be sure that we're we're talking about could be a storage You know some parking storage parking underneath. Yeah, it's not that the living space is so we're we'll look and make sure that we haven't Miss something there. I think that's just where you should be looking at, you know, maybe The other thing it was earlier A mention about a waiver. We also were trying, you know, the thing we've heard from the drb From martha was on the drb from people who've staffed the drb for years is Variances and and just from good planning variance and waivers are not the way to go in in a town unless you're You know parking allocations. I always thought were absolutely ridiculous But what we've done is we've relied on conditional use review in places where we wanted the drb to exercise some judgment right Anyone else Yes, please Yeah, just one thought um prista vautish Um, I'm not super deep on the details of this. I'm here mostly to learn and listen. Um, so thank you um But one thought on the just building design standards as it looks like the language is mostly around making sure it kind of conforms to the To the area I moved here from an area that had under undergone Explosive in fill growth, which was great for a lot of reasons. But one of the negative Aspects of it was, you know, if someone bought two lots next to each other That had two places and they put up five units in this place But they were all cookie cutter exactly alike. And so, you know Whether you might just proactively include some sort of language around not just conforming but diversity of design So that you don't end up with some suburban cookie cutter six houses down main street What's the that's a really good A thought there was I'm kind of curious was the concern because One entity bought multiple adjacent lots or my concern was that's one that was a separate issue where they then turned into party But but yeah, so that developer bought the two or three lots and they had one footprint that they knew how to build And they could buy the materials for and so they put up Five six eight units in a row and the only difference was that one had a square window in the In the peak and that one had a round window in the peak and otherwise they're exactly the same and it's just like It changed the character of the neighborhood whereas if you'd have the same eight buildings, but They had different porches or different roof lines or different something so that it wasn't so Yes, ma'am late to the process also just mostly learning and listening but Just just new belt. I'm late to the process and just kind of learning and going to read this this weekend But how long are you accepting kind of emailed comments or Yeah, okay On monday and then Our goal is to wrap this up and give it to the select board the select board will have to hold a public hearing um So we're getting close You know don't don't take a whole 26 How can you say the sooner the better? Yeah, that was a good suit of the better We really do need to conclude our deliberations next week Okay Then I think we're done. There's no You'll be up there. Thank you all for coming. Thanks for coming out. I appreciate you. Thank you